EP. 178 — Partner In Prison

[00:00:00] CHRIS: [AD BREAK]

[00:00:31] CHRIS: I got excellent podcast recommendation, especially for people who like paranormal stuff. I’m a fan. I worked in a magazine about paranormal stuff for years. I’m always fascinated by it. I think it’s very interesting and fun and funny at times. Good job. A fictional paranormal show called The Last Movie. It’s dark, it’s atmospheric, it’s suspenseful. And Season 2 just launched exclusively on Stitcher Premium. The heroes are in the midst of chasing down a mysterious film purported to drive its viewers mad. Head to StitcherPremium.com/last movie to learn more. And guess what? If you sign up for Stitcher Premium, use the code stories. You get a free month on us and guess what? You’re supporting Beautiful Anonymous. You get access to our back catalogue. You can hear the new episodes without ads. A whole bunch of live shows, a whole bunch of follow ups that you can’t get anywhere else. So that’s StitcherPremium.com/last movie. And when you sign up use the code: stories. Thanks.

[00:01:33] CHRIS: Hello to everybody who’s ever gotten mad at the airport. It’s Beautiful Anonymous. One hour, one phone call, no names, no holds barred.

[00:01:46] THEME MUSIC: I’d rather go one-on-one. I think it’ll be more fun and I’ll get to know you and you’ll get to know me.

[00:01:56] CHRIS: Hi, everybody, it’s Chris Gethard. Welcome to another episode of Beautiful Anonymous. Man do I feel good about doing this show. I have to tell you, here’s a sentimental, cheesy thing to say, but that’s totally true. As a new parent, I tell you, I think a lot about so overwhelming I’m thinking about man this kids entering the world. How do I teach this kid about the world? And I tell you, I feel really lucky that I’ve been able to host this show because I feel like I’ve learned about the world one hour at a time through people. And it actually really fills me with a lot of joy. And I think about that I’ll be able to have all that perspective when I talk to this kid. Okay. That was very sentimental, but it was true. Want to remind everybody there’s a bunch of live Beautiful Anonymous tapings coming up. We haven’t done them in a while. We have London coming up. I’m really hoping people come out and buy tickets for that. Woodstock, Detroit. Tickets on sale. Chris Geth dot com slash live. And I’m doing stand-up in a whole bunch of cities. We just opened some up for Chicago second Buffalo show. So, check Chris Gethard. Com Slash live. I’m doing a tour where I’m bringing cameras. One of the things I want to capture is not just the stand-up material itself, but the conversations I get to have with people after shows. And that’s largely all of you. So nice, so open, so warm. It’s just a very unique thing that I think not many comedians have. And I want to kind of show the world what it looks like. Anyway, this call today, this conversation is really layered. It’s, it was a lot to unwrap. I had to really take my time. You’ll notice I had to take my time. This caller comes out of the gate so strong telling us about her current relationship status. And it’s immediately fascinating. Right as the conversation begins, you’re going to, I think, go, oh, wow. OK. That, that’s a lot. But it’s just the tip of the iceberg. This caller details some addictions that are very specific and not ones that maybe live in our minds at the forefront of our minds when we think of addictions. And, but they’re very real and they’ve had a massive effect on her life. And she talks about how and I think it’ll be really, really interesting for a lot of people, cause I bet there’s a lot of people who you have either you or someone in your life who falls down a rabbit hole that’s very specific and may be hard to wrangle and hard to understand. It’s having a massive effect and it’s hard to sort out. This caller is right in the thick of that. And man, I was fascinated by it. I bet you will be as well. Enjoy this conversation.

[00:04:35] PHONE ROBOT: Thank you for calling Beautiful Anonymous a beeping noise will indicate when you are on the show with the host. [Beep]

[00:04:42] CHRIS: Hello. 

[00:04:43] CALLER: Hi. Hi. 

[00:04:46] CHRIS: Hi. 

[00:04:47] CALLER: You hear me? 

[00:04:48] CHRIS: Yeah. Hi.

[00:04:50] CALLER: Hello. 

[00:04:51] CHRIS: Hello. Hi. Hi. Hello.

[00:04:56] CALLER: Hello. Hi. How are you? Oh, my gosh.

[00:05:01] CHRIS: I’m good. I’m good.

[00:05:02] CALLER: I’m not going to think I’m on a pre-recording if you keep saying hi.

[00:05:06] CHRIS: You started it. You kicked them off. I’m just following your lead. The answer to how am I is bouncing back. That’s the hardest answer. 

[00:05:18] CALLER: Cool. 

[00:05:19] CHRIS: How about you?

[00:05:19] CALLER: Same honestly.

[00:05:20] CHRIS: Oh, OK. 

[00:05:22] CALLER: Yeah. I’m overcoming. 

[00:05:25] CHRIS: Wow, I hope everything’s ultimately all right. 

[00:05:30] CALLER: I think it will be. 

[00:05:31] CHRIS: Fascinating. 

[00:05:34] CALLER: Yeah, I got a good life. I’ve been dealt some good cards. 

[00:05:37] CHRIS: That’s good.

[00:05:40] CALLER: Yeah. So I’ve been, I’m so excited right now. I’ve been wanting to do this for so long. I can’t even remember why, because I don’t, I don’t know why I want to have my voice out in the world, but I’m doing it anyway. So, yeah, it’s cool. 

[00:06:03] CHRIS: Well I’m glad.  

[00:06:04] CALLER: You’ve done a great thing with this podcast. It’s cool. 

[00:06:06] CHRIS: Thanks. I’m glad you, I’m glad you like it and I’m glad you want to be a part of it.

[00:06:13] CALLER: Okay, so what do you want to talk about?

[00:06:19] CHRIS: I mean, really? You know, the answer to this is what it’s whatever you have to talk. Nobody’s, nobody’s listening to this show to hear me. They’re listening to hear you, to hear us stumble down some rabbit holes together.

[00:06:32] CALLER: Okay, cool. Well do you want to hear about my shit? The stuff that’s going on with me right now?

[00:06:38] CHRIS: Yeah. That’s why I’m here. That’s why they put, that’s why they put me on this green earth. To hear about your shit. 

[00:06:47] CALLER: Cool, cool, cool. Okay, so I am in love with somebody who’s incarcerated. Like we started dating and then a whole of things happen. And then he got put in jail and it’s been a lot of transition. And I really related to one of the callers from a few months back who was going into jail. because this is kind of become like a large part of my life right now. Basically, I’m in a 12-step program called Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. And, for that reason, they don’t have a Facebook. But he has used his Facebook sometimes to reach out to his family and let them know what’s going on. Things like that. So, basically, I just got into his Facebook to do some earnest reaching out and I saw a conversation I didn’t want to see. And the tough thing about this is I can’t call him and be mad at him about it. Like, I, I’m, like my hands are kind of tied. I have to cope with this on my own. And that’s like a great thing because I don’t have to act on my first reaction. I can just be with my support group and be with my creator and process it that way instead of like calling him and flipping out.

[00:08:22] CHRIS: Wow, it’s a lot to unpack there.

[00:08:26] CALLER: Yeah, my life is a lot to unpack.

[00:08:29] CHRIS: Well I’m assuming it sounds like this conversation when you say conversation you don’t want to see this. Sounds like he was crossing some lines romantically with someone who was not you. Was it that type of conversation?

[00:08:39] CALLER: Yeah, it was a bit of like talking to like. Talking of bros and being like it was during the time, he was out for like three months and I was only able to visit him for a week. Because he lives across the country and I’m just trying to be really responsible about my boundaries right now. So, I only came up for a week and I guess he was just trying to you know, am I allowed to curse.

[00:09:07] CHRIS: Yeah, say whatever you want. You just have to apologize to my mom afterwards.  

[00:09:10] CALLER: I think, sorry, Mom. 

[00:09:14] CHRIS: Her name’s Sally, just so you know. 

[00:09:16] CALLER: Sally. OK. Hi, Sally. I’m sorry. I think he was just trying to fuck somebody while he was out, which I get like I don’t have that urge, but I understand that that’s a human urge and I sympathize with it. And I understand that. What I don’t want is like lying to me because that will make me go crazy. So, I’ve just got a call. I’ve got to talk to him and be like, hey, please don’t lie. Just tell me what’s up. And then if he lies, I’m going to have to make a whole world of a decision. Kind of.

[00:09:50] CHRIS: Yeah. 

[00:09:51] CALLER: That would change my life. It’s OK. And I’ve gotta be willing to take on these things instead of living in denial. That was my old life before sobriety.

[00:10:01] CHRIS: Now, you were dating before he was incarcerated.

[00:10:07] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:10:08] CHRIS: Were you in love before he was incarcerated or has that developed in the time he’s been in?

[00:10:13] CALLER: Yeah, we, we were in love. We were dating for about a year. And then I decided to move back to my hometown. I feel like everyone that’s listening to this that knows me is going to know it’s me. But basically we met in an activist setting. We were both activists and I was part of my last us, my sex and love stuff. I’m addicted to activism. I’m addicted to like doing right by the world. Because I was raised Catholic and I’ve got that martyr complex or whatever. 

[00:10:50] CHRIS: I hear you. 

[00:10:51] CALLER: Yeah, I know you do. I’m not Catholic anymore, but yeah. So, basically, I decided to leave because I needed to make a life for myself that I needed to, honestly, I need to keep doing activism. That was my biggest reason. I was like, addicted to it. Then we were apart and we like fucked around for a few years, but we were in love with each other. And then by the time I got sober, he was he was in jail. And it’s for something he didn’t do. And I know he didn’t do it. We all know he didn’t do it. All the proof says he didn’t do it. It’s like a racial. It’s that he was wrongly incarcerated for, his, just identity in the world, and I don’t know if that makes sense, but…

[00:011:45] CHRIS: It sounds like you’re saying it seems like you don’t want to share exactly what the charges were. But you’re saying he did not get a fair shake in the justice system, in your opinion?

[00:11:54] CALLER: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:11:55] CHRIS: OK, OK. 

[00:11:56] CALLER: And a lot of people, yeah.

[00:12:02] CHRIS: And how, how long has he been in? How long is he going to be in?

[00:12:08] CALLER: So, he was in about a year pretrial, again fuck the justice system. And then his trial just happened about a month ago. And he’s gonna be in for three years.

[00:12:24] CHRIS: Three additional years. 

[00:12:26] CALLER: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:30] CHRIS: That’s, that’s a lot. That’s a lot of time out here your life.

[00:12:36] CALLER: It’s a lot. So, I was hanging out in his life. I feel like I don’t want, I need to do a lot of like self-searching and a lot of not romantically at all, really, but, like getting on my own two feet and being like emotionally stable and working on my relationship with my family and all that stuff. So, it feels OK to me, like three years feels OK to me. The main thing that is tough is that, like it’s it’s scary to let my mind go about the things that could happen to him in there and the loneliness and the fear and the pain that he’s in. And his grandma is dying. And you know, all that shit that is tough for him. But again, I’m focusing on him and not me. But I feel like I mean, I’m not in jail.

[00:13:45] CHRIS: I feel like maybe my questions are going to jump back and forth between a few topics you’ve brought up because clearly there are things that relate to each other in your mind as they’re kind of being explained. I just want to ask questions to help see how they all tie together.

[00:13:59] CALLER: Yeah, that’s that’s how conversations go, I think.

[00:14:03] CHRIS: I think so. In my experience doing this, so I want to ask, again not to pry and certainly especially when it comes….

[00:14:11] CALLER: No, I’m an open book. It’s my responsibility to set my own boundaries. So, you go at it.

[00:14:17] CHRIS: All right. Here we go. So, you say you are addicted to activism. You say that that was a driving force that you realized, was an addiction that you needed some space to kind of control? How does that fall under the umbrella of sex and love addiction versus something that seems to me like that might be something that sounds maybe more like what you might call a workaholic in some people’s minds or something that would be sorted out through one on one therapy. I’m not I’m I’m curious to hear how that relates to sex and love addiction, which is a very specific thing.

[00:14:53] CALLER: Yeah, well, first of all, I tried going to workaholic’s meetings and they they have a joke that’s like we’re all too busy working to be here. And I was the only one that showed up. So that didn’t work out for me. And I am in therapy also. I’ve found a lot of recovery from 12 steps. I’m also in in a narcotics, but I’ve found a lot of help with slaw because the reason that I do what I do is not like I think a lot of workaholics and I’ve had this experience too with the like with the other job I have is to like obsessively keep myself busy and distract myself from whatever is bothering me, like, you know, obsessively do work. But what activism was was like. I’m going to take the world on my shoulders, it’s my responsibility to fix all this shit and I’m going to try to do it. It’s up to me, and much like when I was a kid, I would try and save the people I was dating, you know. I tried to do that with the world. The ultimate ex.

[00:16:22] CHRIS: I feel like maybe, maybe one thing you can explain that as we’re talking, I’m realizing I don’t I don’t quite know the difference of is. You know, in the name of the program, you’re in a sex and love addiction. And I think you know, I think I know a sex addiction I feel like is a more concrete behaviour in my mind, and I would imagine a lot of people’s minds. You can imagine people who put themselves in risky sexual situations, people who have sexual compulsions that they maybe can’t wrangle in a healthy way. And I think that can take on a number of different forms. And there’s been TV shows about that and descriptions of that. Love addiction sounds like maybe more like you’re trying to save the world. And it seems like it maybe relates a little more to that. Is that on target in your experience, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I’m realizing as we talk about that, it’s the more abstract one in my mind.

[00:17:22] CALLER: Yeah, it definitely is. Like we know when we’re drinking sometimes. Like I know when I wake up in the morning, like, did I break my sobriety with drugs? Yes or no? Usually no. But with love, it’s like the way I’ve heard it described is can you hear the cars driving by? Do I need to go somewhere else?

[00:17:46] CHRIS: No, we’re good. Even Jared’s not mad and his ears are finely tuned machines. So, if he’s if he’s not hearing it, you’re good to go.

[00:17:54] CALLER: So, I wake up every morning with alcohol in my mouth that I have to spit it out, like with love. It’s like I have to constantly set boundaries with myself so that I can. And a lot of people don’t like saying love. They say intrigue or romance instead, because it’s not real love, obviously. Like I do love. I feel like I need to change his name because I want to say it. But like Jimmy, like I do love Jimmy, but I I don’t love a lot of the other things in my life that I thought I loved. Activism being one of them.

[00:18:33] CHRIS: So, you’ll participate in activities or relationships to fill a void. And convince yourself that maybe.

[00:18:40] CALLER: I’m not like specifically the void, that I’m not good enough just existing, that I need to prove my place on this earth and that it’s my fault that anything is bad that somebody else is sad. That’s my fault. And I need to fix it or injustice is my responsibility. Which a lot of times it is. And that’s why it’s so confusing. I mean, it’s my responsibility, like as a white person to do work to to dismantle racism. Right. But it’s not, I can’t solely take that on and fix everything.

[00:19:21] CHRIS: Right, that’s not a one-person job. And if racism is not solved outright, it’s not. It’s not. Yeah, it can’t be all on your shoulders versus the society. Society needs to change.

[00:19:36] CALLER: And, I’m not the one that’s going to change it. People of colour are the ones that are doing the work right now. And they’re the people that, like just specifically involving racism, they’re the people that I can support in succeeding and blooming and they just need, well, I don’t know what they need, but oftentimes it’s just that I need to step out of the way and let people bloom.

[00:20:03] CHRIS: So, you’ll participate in a cause sort of akin to the one you’re describing, and it’ll start with good intentions and then it gets out of control. It, it shows itself to be an unhealthy addiction. And to a certain point in that and that’s where that’s where it becomes problematic. Now, can I ask? I don’t want to make a joke because I am very respectable people in recovery, and I’ve struggled with addiction myself in a few different forms. These meetings, I have to wonder, is there ever any is there ever any push and pull for having sex addicts and love addicts is what you’re doing? Like, I could imagine someone getting up and telling a very, very intense story and again, not trying to out anybody. But just theoretically, I could imagine these meetings where someone is standing up and going, you know, I have I have fallen down a dark road of, you know, getting blackout drunk every night and finding a new sexual partner in that and that I know that’s very dangerous and I can’t stop myself from doing it. Which feels to me so different from going, I participate in activist causes to give myself some sense of validation. And then that becomes sort of the dopamine rush that I chase to hard. Those feel like different things to me. It makes me wonder if those meetings ever have like her an imbalance or a push and pull. It’s really fascinating to think about. An Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, everyone there is at least dealing with alcohol. Sounds like sex and lover are kind of very different things in these in these terms in those meetings must get funky sometimes.

[00:21:40] CHRIS: OK, let’s pause. I want to just admit. Not the smartest way I’ve ever asked the question. Do the meetings get funky? Not a high point of my tenure as a professional conversationalist. But look, you can’t be at the top of your game 60 minutes a call, 24 hours a day. Time for ads. Use the promo codes. We’ll be right back.

[00:22:06] [AD BREAK]

[00:25:26] CHRIS: Sound like sex and love are kind of very different things in these in these terms. And those meetings must get funky sometimes.

[00:25:39] CALLER: Well, yes, but when you think about it, like I would wake up in jail too.

[00:25:48] CHRIS: Really.

[00:25:48] CALLER: I would wake up in jail, too. Yeah. I mean, that’s what my activism was all about, was about getting arrested and fucking everything up. And every time I saw a cop like feeling, you know, getting aggro like, and that’s why it got selfish is because instead of like, being responsible like some people are like, oh, I’m in the mood for wine tonight or like, yeah, I feel really upset about this cause I’m going to go to a protest. It was like every at every turn. I got a bite. I got in a fight in an airport one time.

[00:26:26] CHRIS: They don’t. That never goes well. They don’t. That’s not a place where you can get in a fight and they’re like, hey, why don’t you, uh, why don’t you skedaddle all your rabble rouser, you mess around at, you mess around at an airport, you start to see some of those weird back rooms at an airport.

[00:26:44] CALLER: Yeah.

[00:26:44] CHRIS: Did you get help when one of these weird behind the scenes. Tell me about this.

[00:26:52] CALLER: Well, OK. So, a guy was wearing a jersey and a Redskins jersey. And so, I wrote him this. I was trying to be responsible. I was trying to not go, wow, wow. Cause he was with his children. It’s not funny.

[00:27:12] CHRIS: So, he’s just a football fan in his mind. He’s just a football fan in Washington, D.C., waiting for his flight with his kids. That’s his perspective on what’s going on.

[00:27:21] CALLER: Yes. And I wrote him a letter that was like, here’s how your wrong. And here’s how, and I handed it to him.

[00:27:29] CHRIS: You wrote a letter in that terminal. When you saw it. 

[00:24:32] CALLER: Yes. 

[00:24:34] CHRIS: You riled off a missive in the terminal. 

[00:24:38] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:24:38] CHRIS: Wow. OK.

[00:27:39] CALLER: And I wrote him a letter and I was like, here’s what I’ve seen. Here’s how I’ve seen this, where it hurt other people. Here’s the history of this word. And he got really defensive as one does. And he grabbed me and then I shoved him and then I yelled. And then we got separated and my parents were there, and my parents are conservative Trump supporters.

[00:28:14] CHRIS: Wow, that must have been. 

[00:28:15] CALLER: So, my mom was crying. 

[00:28:16] CHRIS: That sounds like it must be a bit of an issue for you.

[00:28:20] CALLER: Yeah, well, I’ve definitely learned I’ve done more work in my recovery. I’ve done better work on my recovery with that than I did before that. Like another big thing I realized is like, I’m going off, I’m living in these encampments, I’m getting arrested. And yet my parents are voting for Trump. And maybe what I maybe the tough work for me is to do the less glamorous, exciting, fun things and to just sit down with my parents and love them and hear where they’re coming from and teach them about my experience like. We just had a local election and my dad asked me what to do and about my opinions about the people running. And he like cared about what I said instead of, and he ended up voting for the people that I believe are like the best option in that circumstance. And instead of us having this huge argument where he, where we stop talking and he cried and all that. So, does that make sense?

[00:29:34] CHRIS: It does. It does. And I can see it’s really beautiful to hear you hear you say because it sounds to me. So, yeah, that sounds to me like as I’m sorting it all out because and again, I apologize, but it’s such a fascinating but somewhat confusing thing to think about this addiction in in in that term. It’s like hearing you say like, oh, I actually managed to make some one on one progress in a real way with the person in my life. It sounds almost like you were addicted to the idea of like being some sort of superhero in a.

[00:30:07] CALLER: One hundred percent. Yeah. 

[00:30:09] CHRIS: It’s like a crusader.

[00:30:10] CALLER: Like I was 

[00:30:12] CHRIS: Wow.

[00:30:13] CALLER: And with my with my with Jimmy. Like that’s what it was like because he was like, I was talking about race all the time, and he was just like, can we not? I don’t need to talk about it all the time, like when I see you, I don’t see a white person. I see my the person I’m in love with. And like, we don’t need to talk about it all the time. And I would get, I would be so angry that he was getting arrested. And so, like if I had had to go to court in my addiction. I would have had to really seize myself up and bite my tongue till it bled. In order to not.

[00:30:59] CHRIS: Be held, you would have been held in contempt instantly. No one would have gotten a word out and you would have been up on the desk. That’s this, I can see now more and more how this was really affecting your life. You would have been you would have been removed instantly from a courtroom setting.

[00:31:16] CALLER: Yeah, maybe. Maybe if I had kept going, I would of, you know, and and that’s that I would have held everything, I just I would, like, life was so blurry. It’s possible I wouldn’t have been able to control myself.

[00:31:33] CHRIS: Yeah, I can see it now. I can see it. How are you doing? Do you feel like having some space and some time, some awareness of this? Do you feel like you’re starting to get some breathing room and kind of get to a more realistic place of how to? How to help it?

[00:31:51] CALLER: Definitely. It’s been over a year that I’ve been sober. I just got my, One-year chip.

[00:31:57] CHRIS: And when you say so, can I ask. Does that mean cause you had mentioned narcotics? Do you mean sobriety from narcotics or in, in the world of sex and love addiction, do they also they they refer to that as sobriety as well?

[00:32:12] CALLER: Yeah, so you do these, they’re called bottom line behaviours and it’s basically like you make a list of the shit you’re not going to do. So like, I’m not going to get, I’m not going to have a social media profile. I’m not going to go to a protest. I’m not, another thing I added was I’m not gonna give gifts. I didn’t give gifts for a year. There were like a few gifts I gave that I talked to my sponsor about it in advance and we worked it out and they decided to give a gift. I didn’t have sex, but that’s not the goal of sex and love addicts anonymous. It’s not to not have sex and love. It’s to, the way they phrase it is thoughtful, committed decisions instead of feelings by which I’m overwhelmed. Like if I have sex, it’s a thoughtful, committed decision. So, I’ve had sex once in like a little over a year. Yeah, like almost two years, actually. So that, and then you set those bottom-line behaviours and then you don’t do that for some people, it’s like, I’m not going to get on Tinder, you know?

[00:33:27] CHRIS: Right. Right.

[00:33:29] CALLER: Like, or and then for some people, it’s not related to sex and love. Like for me, it’s a protest. Like not I don’t think I’ve met anyone else in my group who has who has down their bottom lines. But, you know, people have all kinds of different things. And then. And then you add them and take them away. Like one time I had this interaction with somebody where we got in a fight and I called my sponsor crying about it. And she was like, OK, that person is on your bottom line now. So you can’t talk to them anymore. And I was like, what? I’m never gonna talk to this person again. It was my Uber driver. But I did it. And that person was on my bottom lines for as long as I needed him to be. Which was like two hours. 

[00:34:20] CHRIS: Right.

[00:34:20] CALLER: And I was like, yeah.

[00:34:23] CHRIS: So, it allows you to, it allows you even in a way like that where it is pretty, ninety nine percent certain you’re never gonna see this person again. It allows you to build some structure of the behaviour in your life that you feel a little more in control of.

[00:34:38] CALLER: Yeah.

[00:34:39] CHRIS: And I can see I can see it now. I thank you for taking your time with me, cause I was I was very I was I was definitely trying to sort it out my mind. But I can see that this need to this need to feel like a saviour. This need to sort of feel like a hero. If it gets to a point where you’re like yelling at Uber drivers during a trip, Uber drivers, Uber rides are generally not very long or getting an a pushing may ask someone in front of his family in an airport. I can see how it’s like, oh, yeah, this has taken over. This is taking over your life in a way that’s not sustainable.

[00:35:14] CALLER: To give context to the Uber driver. It’s like I left my wallet in his car. He said it was gonna cost two hundred dollars for me to get it back. 

[00:35:22] CHRIS: Oh, no. Do the right thing. 

[00:35:26] CALLER: Yeah. So, yes, so he didn’t get in like a political fight or something. Yeah. I was like crying and called my sponsor. She was like, it’s a wallet. You’re freaking out. You’re losing your mind over a wallet right now. So, what are you going to do?

[00:35:42] CHRIS: I once lost a hat in a lift. I was once in a lift and I left my hat in there. And it was this, it was a very silly hat, but a special hat to me and I can’t tell you how much it affected me in a way it shouldn’t have and made me so sad. It was a very, it was a hat, it was a baseball hat that had a fishing hook on the brim, and it said on the top, work sucks going fishing. And it had some fake beer bottles. I don’t drink. I don’t fish. A friend got me the hat. It was a specific, my friend Mike Birbiglia bought me the hat while we were on the road together as a joke, where he was like you should wear this hat was such a hat that was out of character for me. And I lost the hat and I felt like I lost something bigger than that. Anyway, that’s about me, not about you. Let me go back to asking. So do you visit? You had said that his name is not really Jimmy. You said that was a placeholder that we’re gonna use for the call. Right. Hello. Uh oh. Are you so astounded by my story of my fishing-based hat that you’re shocked into silence? That’s what happen, is that what’s happening here? I feel like what happened is that story of the hat blew our caller away so hard core that she can’t fathom topping that. And, therefore. She had the hang up because the fishing hat story was just so.

[00:37:09] CALLER: Hello. 

[00:37:10] CHRIS: Did the, did the fishing did the story of my hat blow you away so much that you had to hang up because it was filling you with such excitement and joy?

[00:37:18] CALLER: It was like, this is too much. 

[00:37:21] CHRIS: Yeah.

[00:37:22] CALLER: No, I actually, I tried to, oh my gosh. I just screamed out loud. I accidently hung up.

[00:37:30] CHRIS: These things happen. These things happen, don’t worry about it. I wanted to ask you I just wanna make sure you’ve been calling him Jimmy, your partner. But you said that’s not his real name. That’s a placeholder name, right?

[00:37:40] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:37:41] CHRIS: Can I can I ask you? 

[00:37:44] CALLER: Jimmy, that’s in prison.

[00:37:45] CHRIS: So, you said he’s in a prison across the country from you at this point. 

[00:37:49] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:37:49] CHRIS: How. How often do you get to A, communicate and B, visit in person?

[00:37:57] CALLER: So, he just got to the prison where he’s like a more long-term prison. Before that, he was in county prisons, which just have a lot of varying regulations and stuff. So, I got to see him when he was out, really relate that to who I had sex with. But before that, I was just able to see him even even though I went to, I drove all the way to visit him. It was video. I’m not allowed to see him in person because there are all kinds of people that are in there and that’s just the rule they’ve set up.

[00:38:38] CHRIS: So even you’re saying at the prison, if you go all the way to the prison, you’re still talking on a video monitor?

[00:38:43] CALLER: Yes. It was really tough. 

[00:38:46] CHRIS: That’s sucks.

[00:38:46] CALLER: And there are all kinds of people who around, all kinds of people listening to our conversation like not just guards, but like the other people in the waiting room. Like I can see them in the reflection, like looking at my conversation and on his end, like, you know, people being nosy like. It was really tough.

[00:39:07] CHRIS: So, you got to fly, you got to get on a plane and fly all the way out there to effectively just have like a Skype conversation.

[00:39:12] CALLER: No, I drove. 

[00:39:13] CHRIS: You drove? How long is the drive? 

[00:39:16] CALLER: 18 hours. 

[00:39:18] CHRIS: You drive 18, did you know this was gonna be the setup? 

[00:39:21] CALLER: Yeah.

[00:39:22] CHRIS: So, you drive 18 hours and you’re in the same facility as this guy you love and you’ve got to sit there basically on face time while other people watch and listen?

[00:39:33] CALLER: Yeah, I like do other things when I’m up there, like I’m really close with this family. So, I’d go up there. There’s ceremonies. So, I usually go up when there’s ceremony and do something like that and hang out with the family.

[00:39:49] CHRIS: Right. So, there’s other reasons to visit and make it worth the 18-hour drive. So, there’s no world in which you had mentioned that this was the person that you slept with. So, there’s no world in which there’s like conjugal visits or anything like that. You don’t even get to look each other. 

[00:40:05] CALLER: Well, we’re not married. 

[00:40:07] CHRIS: Oh, is that only for married people? That makes sense.

[00:40:10] CALLER: Yeah. And it’s tough because we don’t want to get well, we haven’t wanted to get married in the eyes of the law. But if I if we want to, like, really see each other, there are more privileges allowed if if we get legally married.

[00:40:27] CHRIS: So, you wouldn’t have to talk on the video monitor in that case, but then you’re also opting into it. It sounds like you and Jimmy, as we’re calling them, sounds like neither one of you are necessarily into the system. Sounds like this is not something you buy into. It doesn’t sound like you want to go before a magistrate and get a marriage certificate. It sounds like that would be a little bit contradictory towards your interest in life.

[00:40:51] CALLER: Yes, but we’re talking about doing it anyway. 

[00:40:56] CHRIS: Just so you can have a goddamn hug in the next three years.

[00:41:00] CALLER: Yeah, well, at the new prison, I probably will be able to see him and hold his hand. It all just depends on where he’s at.

[00:41:11] CHRIS: Yeah. Yeah. That’s brutal. That’s brutal.

[00:41:15] CALLER: And it’s really like depending on the circumstances, I could drive all the way up there and they could have some high profile guy that just got sent there and then he’d he’d be on lockdown and I wouldn’t be able to see him or he’d be on lockdown and I’d just be able to do the video monitoring thing I guess or you know, it’s all just so up in the air.

[00:41:41] CHRIS: Un predictable. Yeah. I would imagine that you might be driving, that you might be at hour 17 and then some, something happens in there where there is like an incident. Someone gets caught doing something, there’s something violent happens. And all of a sudden, it’s like, well, if you had gotten here 90 minutes ago, you would have been able to hold hands. But sorry not happening now.

[00:42:02] CALLER: Or like what happened, I was just up with his family for two weeks, like hanging out. And I went to go visit him and put money on his books and I put the money on there. And then they were like. I was in line waiting like to see him and then I was waiting and waiting and then they were like, oh, he just got transferred and I was like, can I get my money back? And they were like, No, it’s already in the system. So.

[00:42:32] CHRIS: So that’s that’s not good.

[00:42:38] CALLER: Yeah, it was, it’s an exercise in patience for sure.

[00:42:42] CHRIS: The prison, prison system is problematic. I feel like even the most, I think anybody who’s reasonable would look at it and say it’s problematic. Let me ask you, is he in jail for stuff related to your activism? Either, either in what he’s actually been convicted for or as you know, you say that you do not believe he did the crime. Do you feel like in some ways part of why he’s in there is because he’s being punished for his activism through the justice system?

[00:43:15] CALLER: The, his lawyer basically said that. So, his, the actual crime isn’t related to that. But his lawyer was like OK, so another thing is that in order to like, so the judge needed support letters, and the easiest way for me to get a lot of support letters was to reach out to other activists who wouldn’t talk about the activism. But would be like, he’s a good person. And that his activism is one of the ways in which he’s known by his community. He is a great, he’s done much better things than I have. And he’s remained calm in much better ways than I have. But, so it’s not like he’s done a lot of wild things, but he’s got arrested, too. Anyway, his lawyer was like if we let this go to trial, they’re going to judge you on all those things. Even if that’s not how the law works, technically. So, yeah, his sentence was going to be a lot worse if he went to trial. He had to take a plea bargain.

[00:44:43] CHRIS: So, he took the plea, so as to not kind of be nailed to the wall for stuff unrelated to the actual charges.

[00:44:52] CALLER: Yeah.

[00:44:54] CHRIS: Wow. I’m going ask you something tough, but I’m sure you thought about it. You’ve said that this aspect of your life and you just said that he was able you said that you got more wild than he did with it. I think you used the word wild. So, with you it became addictive, with you became a thing where you’re getting cops faces and getting in fights in airports. And it’s, and you have to take a step back and go, yeah, this is out of control. You’ve mentioned a few times you’re off social media and I can see that. I mean, social media is built right now where you are, I bet there’s times where people in your position make go. Oh, I just sat down to write one post and then wound up fighting with people about politics for 10 hours on Twitter. I could see that. I can see how that’s an addiction. Yeah. Let me ask you, though, this is a person who is incarcerated right now. You’re saying that at least on some level, his reputation in in the world of activism is part of why he’s in there through at the very least, like circumstantial or tangential connections? A sensitive question, because I never want to question love. And it sounds like you have a lot of admiration and love for for this guy. Was there ever any consideration that he should become one of those people on your on your list? Because.

[00:46:14] CALLER: Yeah, 

[00:46:14] CHRIS: Equating it to something like AA, I would imagine. It sounds like this would be a person who would be considered in that metaphor as like your number one drinking buddy.

[00:46:28] CHRIS: Wow, hard hitting question that there. There I go back at the top of my game. Tough, hard hitting question, get the answer right after this. In the meantime, check out our sponsors. Use the promo codes. It really helps the show when you do. We’ll be right back.

[00:46:44] [AD BREAK]

[00:48:10] CHRIS: Equating it to something like AA. I would imagine. It sounds like this would be a person who would be considered in that metaphor as like your number one drinking buddy.

[00:48:20] CALLER: Yeah. So, we call those people qualifiers. A person that we’re like, so qualifiers basically. A drink. If somebody were unable to not act out around. And I have had to cut out a lot of people like that. A lot of people. Like 95 percent of the people that I was involved with, not just romantically. Mostly non romantically in activism, but, yeah, I, we go on periods of no contact. For my sake, which has been hard because he’s like, contact is what helps him stay sane in there. And I just basically. Follow my sponsors advice and other people in my recovery program. And I think I’m gonna have to, well, I’ve been planning on doing that again once he gets into a more stable prison situation. And now that this stuff is happening where I’m a little confused about him, I’m probably I’m going to do it again I think, yeah. I mean, that occurs to me all the time and it kind of has to occur to me. Yeah. But me and my sponsor and all them have decided. It hasn’t been that because he’s a he’s somebody that I’m not acting out with most of the time, like in activism, I was acting out like he was around during that. And then like right now I feel like it’s getting shaky with all this, with all this stuff? But in other times it hasn’t been that. It’s been much more like, spiritual and calm and loving and real love and a, yeah. 

[00:50:34] CHRIS: And you expressed that he was someone who may be brought up some of the concern of, hey, we don’t have to we don’t have to be at a fever pitch about this stuff all the time. So, he was maybe someone who saw early that it was getting a little out of control.

[00:50:50] CALLER: Yeah. One of the hardest things that I had to make amends to him about was that. I came up to visit him when he was like before all the jail stuff happened and then Charlottesville it just happened; you know. And for some reason, the plane I was on that time I was on a plane. Had like live TV and I was watching like my friends get arrested and watching, I watched live as that. Sorry, there’s a plane overhead. Watching live as that really horrible thing happened and I got really, really freaked out and when I got off the plane, I was like, we need to go there, like we need to go there right now. And he was like, are you kidding me? Somebody just died. Why would we go there? And I was like, we have to go there. He was like, no, we don’t. We don’t have to go there. And I was just one hundred percent shaken. Like so, but, but I do that also not not just because of the activism, but because it’s scary to trust somebody. It’s scary to be with, it’s scary to be with somebody that I loved that is being in a violent situation, because that’s something that makes me more comfortable. I feel like I have felt like I was better at crisis than I was in calm. And that has to do with the way I was brought up to. 

[00:52:33] CHRIS: So, you would seek out chaos, you would seek out crisis.

[00:52:36] CALLER: That’sm that’s the thing. That’s, that’s the job.

[00:52:41] CHRIS: Now, how how do you anticipate this is convo going about? Hey, you know, you let me in your Facebook inbox. I wasn’t trying to be a snoop put this thing was sitting there. I wish I hadn’t seen it, but I did. How do you think this convo is going to go?

[00:52:59] CALLER: I can’t really, I’ve got to let go of his side. I don’t know. I have no idea what he’ll say. All I can be responsible for is my side. So, I’ve kind of planned out what I’m going to say. And then if it goes a certain way that I don’t want it to go, I’m going to have to accept that. And if it goes away, I want it to go then yeah. So, I can’t really have any expectations.

[00:53:33] CHRIS: I feel like this is not the case, but I just want to ask being that you’re someone in your situation where there’s so many things that you need to disconnect from in order to sort of feel more stable and healthy. Has there been any discussion with your loved ones, your sponsors? Is dating someone who’s 18 hours away and completely unavailable, is that. Do you ever wonder if that is? How would I phrase it? 

[00:54:07] CALLER: Not sober. 

[00:54:08] CHRIS: Or, or, built in a way that gives you the distance you need to heal up. If that makes sense.

[00:54:19] CALLER: Yeah, I mean, that’s why I’ve gone on no contact sometimes. And that’s what I’m wondering right now. OK. I feel like I’ve done a lot of know it all, kind of, I tell you know, it all stuff in this conversation, but I genuinely want to know, like, what do you think you do if this happened to your wife? If your wife was wrongly accused of something and she was in jail, 

[00:54:46] CHRIS: I mean, I’d be gone.

[00:54:46] CALLER: Maybe before you got married. 

[00:54:49] CHRIS: My, I mean, if I’m, if I’m really trying to put myself in that emotional place, I’d be, I’d be losing my mind. I’d be I wouldn’t be able to talk calmly about it on the phone with some guy I never met. I’d be flipping out. I can’t imagine I’d feel. I would imagine I’d feel like I was, the only thing I can think I would. I feel like I would feel like I was like a caged animal, like somebody needs to let me out of here because this has to be dealt with. This isn’t right. Can’t imagine if somebody locked up my wife. And I was like, that’s not this isn’t based in truth. I’d be be losing it. You’re doing a lot better, it sounds like, than I would would be doing for sure.

[00:55:36] CALLER: Well, I wasn’t doing better when it first happened. I think this is what led to my bottom is that I wasn’t dealing with it. I was in my hometown like acting out, getting arrested, dating other people. Hurting them because I was in love with somebody else. Like, I was like a caged animal, so that I wasn’t really caged. You know. 

[00:56:02] CHRIS: But your out there like a feral, your your running roughshod over your world. 

[00:56:08] CALLER: Yea, like a little raccoon, yeah.

[00:56:08] CHRIS: Well, I can’t imagine I mean, if yeah, if you’re a we can’t bring up raccoons on this show. It’s a real sore spot for a lot of, we did a raccoon attack episode recently with someone who had been attacked by a rabid raccoon. And it was really, it was a hell of an episode. It’s OK. I mean, listen, it’s life sometimes hands you a raccoon that comes charging out of the woods. It’s real fucked up, but yeah, I can imagine.

[00:56:29] CALLER: I was the racoon. 

[00:56:31] CHRIS: You were the raccoon in this world. You were the raccoon jumping out of a creek, pouncing upon unsuspecting people

[00:56:37] CALLER: Dude I want to make amends to the person who was hurt by the raccoon.

[00:56:42] CHRIS: So, you hear that story and you actually identify with the raccoon more than the human of just being the chaos to bring out the unpredictable chaos bringer in a lot of people’s lives in your world. 

[00:56:56] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:56:57] CHRIS: But when you boil it down to something as simple as that. The person I love gets locked up unjustly. I mean, I gotta say, as someone who’s had a few stretches in my life where I’ve maybe gone off the deep end a little bit. I think you’re allowed to go off the deep end in that situation. I think everybody needs to, I think everyone should reserve the right to kind of go off the deep end. Let’s say three times in the course of their life, to just really bottom out and and have to rebuild. I think that that’s you know, we sit around being so scared of that and I get it. It’s a terrifying thing. But I also think you’ve got to give yourself permission to do that. As long as you kind of bounce back and get stronger from it. But certainly, I think.

[00:57:37] CALLER: Or maybe you just, well, as a love addict and a co-dependent like I just I wish I could bottom out without hurting anybody else.

[00:57:47] CHRIS: Right. Without tearing the whole thing down around you.

[00:57:52] CALLER: Yeah, like. If I could just bottom out in my room. Which I guess is what, drugs? Well, no, it’s not. You know, it all hurts somebody else. And yeah, I would love to run away from everybody, but that’s not how life works. Like, that’s basically what I did to my parents and they got hurt.

[00:58:15] CHRIS: Right? I mean, that’s part. 

[00:58:16] CALLER: And, you know, the had to see me on the news.

[00:58:18] CHRIS: Really, so you you’ve been in situations that got so out of control that you were in the news, that your loved ones saw you in the news.

[00:58:24] CALLER: I mean, not like. 

[00:58:26] CHRIS: You weren’t the lead story, but they see some footage of some stuff. And they see you in there.

[00:58:32] CALLER: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:58:33] CHRIS: Wow. But I got to tell you. I just want to finish the thought. The person you love gets thrown into prison. And you know in your heart that it’s for something they didn’t really do. And they’re being judged for stuff that has nothing to do with this. I think you have a right to kind of, I think that you definitely have a right to hit a wall in that situation. I think it’s warranted. As long as you get stronger from it, I think it’s OK.

[00:58:59] CALLER: Yeah. Somebody just told me yesterday, if you don’t learn from a relapse, you’re doing it wrong. Like I’ve learned a lot from medicine. I hope I can grow, grow up to be stronger for it.

[00:59:16] CHRIS: I’ll also go ahead and say something nice that I hope gives you some some relief maybe, who knows? But I think if you say because it sounds like this was long term behavior, it sounds like it’s something that kind of has caused some some trouble in your life and the lives of people around you a few times. And I’m not excusing all that. But in this particular circumstance where someone you love gets put behind bars, if you don’t lose it, I think it’s actually, just as unhealthy as if you do, right? If you can just go, oh, cool, I guess I’ll see you in three years. That’s, that’s not healthy either. So I don’t know if there, based on who, based on who you were and the fact that maybe you’re prone to some chaos and to diving head first into some situations that that that sort of tore your world down. How was it not going to happen when your guy gets thrown in jail? How is it not going to happen.

[01:00:09] CALLER: I don’t know. Maybe just through spirituality like right now, I mean, you’ve caught me on a tough day, but like usually it’s just like all these good things are gonna happen and he’s gonna get a GED, he’s going to stay out of trouble. I’m going to heal. And there are, I mean, this path I’m walking this path has been laid out in front of me for a reason. And it’s gonna be okay. And good things are happening all around me. Bad things are happening all around me, too. But. Yeah.

[01:00:49] CHRIS: It’s easy to forget. It’s easy to, I actually feel like what you just said is a very good reminder for where I’m at right now. Because it’s easy to say bad things are happening all around me. And to just convince yourself, that’s all there is. But the other side of what you said is, well, there’s good things happening, too. And sometimes you gotta remind yourself of that so that you can come up for air. And keep breathing.

[01:01:15] CALLER: Yeah. I think it’s just one of the only good coping mechanisms that exist because it’s like. When I’m at the bottom, what else am I supposed to do? But well, this is so cheesy. But you know that thing that’s like. When you’re at the bottom, you can see the stars or whatever. Yeah.

[01:01:37] CHRIS: Have you, have you is part of your recovery brainstorming ways in which you feel because you had every good intention of having a positive effect on the world. And then you’ve described a few situations today where you’re like, well, well, yeah, that’s particularly the one jumping out, it’s like if you get in a shoving match with a guy in an airport in front of his kids. Yeah. This is taking on a form that is is is, there’s there’s some unregulated emotion there and where it makes sense, you wind up really wanting to deal with it. Has there been any brainstorming to go how do I, how do I walk that line of wanting to be a positive person who works hard to make the world I live in a better place without it taking on this form of sort of the martyr complex that you laid out or the the hero’s journey that you’re trying to walk and becomes more of a healthy expression of why I can help the world. And it doesn’t need to become driven by out of control emotions.

[01:02:42] CALLER: Well, I think like with the thing with my parents that I mentioned. That one of them like, helping the family, his family and him and doing things anonymously and not telling anybody.

[01:02:58] CHRIS: Right. So, it’s not about getting the credit for it. It’s about doing it.

[01:03:04] CALLER: Yeah, and I’m at that point now. It’s been over a year and it’s like the opportunities are coming towards me and I just have to be selective about what I can do. Which is sad. But yeah, I think that that I’m also going into fucking social work.

[01:03:25] CHRIS: Well, that’s gonna be walking a real razor’s edge, huh? 

[01:03:30] CALLER: I know.

[01:03:31] CHRIS: A lot of broken systems.

[01:03:31] CALLER: What I do now is just taking care of dogs, which feels like that because it’s like nourishing somebody and taking care of them and walking them, feeding them. But I’m not. You know, it’s nonpolitical. My, my uncle has Down syndrome and taking care of him. Like. And also, I think taking care of myself is, is taking care of the world in that it is if I can’t take care of myself, then I’m not, I can’t do anything else, obviously. And, if we lived in a perfect world where everyone was able to just nourish themselves and take care of themselves, then maybe we wouldn’t have any problems. If Trump was able to go to therapy and some some racism classes. And whatever. Maybe this wouldn’t be an issue.

[01:04:41] CHRIS: I think you just stumbled into something. Whether you hate Trump or you’re a full on Maga enthusiast, I think everyone thing everyone can agree on is there’s there’s not there’s not a Psychiatric professional in this world who has enough degrees to unwrap that? I don’t think even his biggest supporters. Right. Anyone who got assigned to be his therapist. Oh, my God. That would be. You want to talk about a prison sentence? Whoever gets stuck being his shrink. Wow. Wow.

[01:05:15] CALLER: But then again, that’s not that’s not him taking care of himself. 

[01:05:20] CHRIS: Yeah. That’s true. 

[01:05:22] CALLER: That’s somebody else taking care of him. 

[01:05:22] CHRIS: Oh yeah. 

[01:05:23] CALLER: He needs, yeah, as if he needs another babysitter.

[01:05:26] CHRIS: Yeah. But listen, I don’t want to start bringing up Trump with you. And the next thing I know, I turn on the TV and you’re on top of a car throwing a Molotov. Throwing a Molotov cocktail at at the DMV because it represents government oppression.

[01:05:43] CALLER: It’s not going to happen.

[01:05:44] CHRIS: Is this the type of thing that we used to have to be concerned about? That if you have to.

[01:05:25] CALLER: No, not at all. 

[01:05:50] CHRIS: If you have to renew your license, the next thing the people in your life know, you’re a you’re you’re joining a band of anarchist guerrillas who live in the forest and raid.

[01:06:03] CALLER: I have been in a band of anarchist guerrillas in the forest already. I had to vote yesterday, I mean, I walked in there. It’s funny because I was spiritually vested in there. Somebody made fun of my appearance and I was OK. I. Here. I don’t know if this is going to do anything. I don’t know if this is that it matters. But I’m here and I’m goind to do it anyway. And I’m going to interact with government employees and be ok.

[01:06:35] CHRIS: Well, I got to say, I’m happy that you’re feeling better. I’m happy that you’re taking care yourself. I really hope everything with your guy works out. It was really fascinating. A lot for me to unwrap with your story. And I thank you for taking time. I have to applaud you, too. You are definitely the only car in the history of the show where in the last minute can offhandedly go. Oh, I’ve already been in a band of anarchist gorillas in the forest, and it’s just a throw away thing from your life. That’s the full hour for most people. And that was you just toss that shit aside like, oh, there’s a empty, empty food wrapper.

[01:07:13] CALLER: Yeah. Okay.

[01:07:17] CHRIS: You’ve seen a lot of shit and I’m glad you’re working on yourself and you’ve given me a lot to think about.

[01:07:24] CALLER: Well, maybe when your, Oh.

[01:07:25] CHRIS: Not go for it. 

[01:07:26] CALLER: Well maybe when your in your going to have to believe this, but when you’re in BEEP, when you’re next on tour, I can come up to you after the show and introduce myself.

[01:07:36] CHRIS: I would love that. I always love to meet a caller. And you know what I want to just close on, because one thing that you put out that I thought was really beautiful. Maybe the real way to save the world is you save yourself first and then you start to figure out how to save 

[01:07:49] CALLER: One hundred percent.

[01:07:49] CHRIS: And you save your uncles and then you save your dogs. And then you start to save your neighbourhood and then your town, and then maybe it starts to spread. I think that that’s pretty beautiful thought.

[01:07:58] CALLER: Yeah. In my experience, I can’t speak to anyone else, but. Yeah.

[01:08:03] CHRIS: Well, I wish you well and I thank you for calling. This one was really.

[01:08:07] CALLER: I wish you well, too. 

[01:08:09] CHRIS: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

[01:08:11] CALLER: Thank you. OK. Have a good day. 

[01:08:14] CHRIS: You too.

[01:08:16] CALLER: Bye.