EP. S2E44 — True Crime Time w/ Liza Treyger & Kara Klenk

[00:00:28] ASHLEY RAY: Welcome to TV, I Say with Ashley Ray–your go-to podcast for discovering what to watch on TV and getting behind the scenes insight from the people who make the shows you love. This week I wanted to recap what’s going on in the world of crime and true crime mostly because I went on a really deep, like, 20/20 binge and just could not stop watching all these ABC shows. So, to help me out, I had to bring in a couple of amateur detectives. They’re both comedians and the host of the super popular SVU podcast, That’s Messed Up. Please welcome Liza Treyger and Kara Klenk.

 

[00:01:02] LIZA TREYGER: Hello.

 

[00:01:03] KARA KLENK: Hi. Hi. Hi.

 

[00:01:05] LIZA TREYGER: You have so many TV people here. So, this is good.

 

[00:01:08] ASHLEY RAY: I am so, so glad that you could join me. I absolutely love your podcast because obviously, like everyone, I grew up on SVU.

 

[00:01:18] LIZA TREYGER: You know what makes me happy? That you’re also watching 20/20 and not Dateline because I was a 20/20 girl growing up. But it seems like Dateline has had this, like, loving resurgence. And that was really refreshing to hear that you were a 20/20 Girl.

 

[00:01:30] KARA KLENK:  I just saw that Dateline is one of the most popular podcasts. Not to shout out another podcast on your podcast. I mean, for me–the dateline of it all–it’s so repetitive. You come back from commercial, and they back up five minutes and tell you everything they just told you. But I do think Keith Morrison’s voice is iconic. The Truth About Pam podcast. I could listen to him… It was so campy and funny. Like, I mean, even though it was truly about a psycho.

 

[00:02:02] LIZA TREYGER: Maybe that’s what I’m going to listen to.

 

[00:02:06] ASHLEY RAY: It’s good. And the show is good. And also, Keith narrates the TV show version they made. So, like, it’s a pretty fun spin off. I don’t like Dateline because I feel like now, they write the show knowing that they’re just going to lift the audio for the podcast. It’s just so repetitive. Even watching the show, you’re like, “Yeah, we know. We know. She had a suspicious neighbor. Yes, you’ve mentioned him so many times.”

 

[00:02:33] LIZA TREYGER: Also 20/20–did you like that mustache guy who at the end would be like, “And actually…”? I don’t know. I liked him a lot.

 

[00:02:39] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, I loved him. He would just come in and just kind of clarify things for you. Sometimes you need a moment to gather. And they got that over there.

 

[00:02:47] LIZA TREYGER: They had, like, hidden camera little pranks. And I liked that.

 

[00:02:52] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. Oh, what a great time. But let’s get into the watchlist. What shows have you been watching that you’re dying to tell us about?

 

[00:02:59] LIZA TREYGER: I know we’re, like, obviously here for crime, true crime, all of that. But, like, we’re big Bravo people. I woke up at 8:30 this morning to watch the Vanderpump finale, Watch What Happens Live. Kara had to pause it; she hasn’t finished. I have already had a FaceTime chat. I’ve made two memes. It’s actually really hard not to talk about this.

 

[00:03:18] ASHLEY RAY: In a lot of ways, it kind of is true crime. It kind of felt like in real life, in real time, you were watching something go down. As listeners know, I started Vanderpump Rules from the beginning, and then my last guests were like, “Don’t do that. Just start with this newest season. There’s no reason–”

 

[00:03:40] LIZA TREYGER: Who are these people? Who are these weirdos? If you have the time and the passion, why not get the whole story arc.

 

[00:03:48] ASHLEY RAY: Well, yeah. But they were like, “If you want to be ready for this reunion, you’re just going to have to, like, jump in. You can always go back. You can always go back.” So, I did that. I finally just dove in. It’s reality TV. They explain everything a million times. So, I was able to keep up.

 

[00:04:04] KARA KLENK: And they literally show clips from, like, ten seasons ago to keep you fully updated.

 

[00:04:08] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. So, I was like, “Okay. Truly, I’m okay.” But I will still go back. But I got it. Everything about this reunion–I was just like, “I understand. I wasted years of my life not watching this show and not getting it.” Someone on Twitter said they’re gatekeeping because there’s so many new people. And I was like, “You’re right to do so. Yeah. Yeah. I’m a fool.”

 

[00:04:31] LIZA TREYGER: No, it’s totally fine. You get to things when it’s time for you. There are people that are just watching, you know, Sopranos for the first time. It’s fine. It’s there for us.

 

[00:04:45] ASHLEY RAY: I never finished The Sopranos.

 

[00:04:47] LIZA TREYGER: I didn’t either. There were a few killings where I was like, “You know what? I don’t need this.”

 

[00:04:51] KARA KLENK: But like Potomac, for example–Housewives of Potomac–everyone was like, “Started at this season.” And I was like, “I just don’t think I have the time.” And so, I just backed up one season and then jumped up into the first into the current. And then it’s like I go back. There are so many flashbacks; you know what’s going on.

 

[00:05:08] ASHLEY RAY: You know what’s going on.

 

[00:05:09] LIZA TREYGER: It’s so interesting that both of you mentioned the flashbacks because Andy Cohen was just on Las Culturistas podcast. His first love is soap operas. And I think it was All My Children–the one that Kelly Ripa was on. And he was saying that he loved soap operas–that’s what the inspiration for all of this is–real soap operas. And he was saying that, like, what he loved about the soap operas is they have, like, 30, 40 years of arsenals and it’s always flashbacks. And now he’s like, “We have 17 seasons of O.C.” Like, you have so much to flashback into and characters come back–and just how intentional he is about everything.

 

[00:05:53] KARA KLENK: That makes a lot of sense that he is, you know, born and raised in Pine Valley, USA, which is where All My Children takes place.

 

[00:06:01] LIZA TREYGER: And he mentioned that, too–that the soap operas are in different cities.

 

[00:06:06] ASHLEY RAY: Different cities. Yeah. My family was very into Young and the Restless, which is set in some town in Wisconsin. I don’t know why.

 

[00:06:15] KARA KLENK: That’s so not sexy or glamorous in any way. That’s so funny.

 

[00:06:19] ASHLEY RAY: And now I need to look up the town because it has a sexy name.

 

[00:06:26] KARA KLENK: Are any of them like, “Oh my God. How dare you? You cheated on me?” Like, are they talking in Wisconsin accents?

 

[00:06:33] ASHLEY RAY: No, they just sound like sexy city people. And then they’re like, “But we are in Genoa City, Wisconsin.” The gateway to Wisconsin, FYI.

 

[00:06:48] LIZA TREYGER: Where you have to wear coats. You know what I mean? Like, that seems silly. Go somewhere warm.

 

[00:06:53] ASHLEY RAY: You know, thinking about the show, I can’t think of, like, any scenes where they’re in the snow or cold. Thinking about it, I feel like every scene is summer somehow magically in Genoa City, Wisconsin. Wow.

 

[00:07:09] KARA KLENK: When I would go to summer camp, my sister would write me letters telling me what was going on All My Children. She’d be like, “There was a hurricane. Maria got a scar on her face.” She would, like, write me detailed stuff because I was obsessed. And I wasn’t allowed to watch them really except for, like, sick days. But you just jump back in. Everything’s still the same shit, you know?

 

[00:07:31] ASHLEY RAY: Some of the best daytime television you can watch on a sick day.

 

[00:07:35] KARA KLENK: Yeah. But, I mean, then on top of Scandoval, we’ve got Erika Jayne, we’ve got Jen Shah. I mean, these women are committing crimes.

 

[00:07:44] ASHLEY RAY: Crimes. Like, it is true crime. Like, I watch every single documentary that eventually gets made, every single 20/20, Dateline episode that’s like, “The House of Shah.” And I’m like, “Yes, give me everything. Even if I don’t care. I love it.”

 

[00:07:58] LIZA TREYGER: And we have a new one coming out with Randall about Randall–Lala Kent ex-husband. That’s going to be pretty thrilling as well.

 

[00:08:06] ASHLEY RAY: That’s going to be good. Kara, on your watchlist, you had Who Killed Robert Wone?

 

[00:08:12] KARA KLENK: Yes.

 

[00:08:13] ASHLEY RAY: Which I also watched a few weeks ago. I want to know what you think about it because I didn’t think anyone else in the world watched this.

 

[00:08:20] KARA KLENK: Here’s the thing that’s so crazy–my sister is a crazy, true crime person. Her and her fiancé just stay in on Fridays and watch Dateline. Like, she watches every true crime thing. So, I was like, “How did you even find this? It’s like a two-part thing on Peacock.” But what’s wild is that she was living in D.C. She basically moved out of D.C. the same month that this happened. And I spent the whole 2000s going to D.C. to get drunk with my friends that live there because I lived in New York City, and I thought D.C. was a fun place to party. And I’m like, “How did I never hear about this crime at all?” You know, like, it’s so wild. I haven’t seen something where… I mean, I don’t know if we want to spoil it for people or what.

 

[00:09:12] ASHLEY RAY: I’ll give a little setup. There’s this guy, Robert Wone. He is married. I think at the time his wife is pregnant. But he has these three friends in D.C. who he parties with and hangs out with and sometimes stays with. And it turns out–it sort of matters–they’re gay. And they’re in this throuple poly relationship. And this guy, Robert, is coming to hang out with them and decides to spend the night because they’ve had too much to drink. In the middle of the night, the throuple says that someone comes in and stabs him. By the time they, like, notice what’s going on and hear what’s happening the guy has run back outside of the apartment. And they don’t know what’s happened. And Robert is dead. And they call the police. And yeah.

 

[00:09:57] KARA KLENK: But basically, from the time this guy gets dropped off to the time that 911 is called is 79 minutes. So, what the fuck happened? Like, Robert was staying over because he lived too far away, and he didn’t want to come all the way home and go back to work. So, he came over, they said they had a glass of water, and then he went to bed. And then this whole thing happens. You’re saying a guy came into the house, stole nothing, did three precise stab wounds in this man’s upper body–

 

[00:10:25] ASHLEY RAY: Where he didn’t make any noise.

 

[00:10:26] KARA KLENK: There’s almost no blood.

 

[00:10:29] ASHLEY RAY: Had to walk up creaky stairs. No noise.

 

[00:10:30] KARA KLENK: And the guy was found with his mouth guard in, which everybody says is the last thing he did before he went to bed. His wife says, “Yeah, before bed, he pops his mouth guard in. I’m supposed to. I don’t.”

 

[00:10:45] ASHLEY RAY: But he’s found with it in.

 

[00:10:46] KARA KLENK: He’s found with it in. Everyone’s trying to say, “Oh, maybe they were playing a sex game that went wrong.” Still, how would they play a sex game that went wrong and then they were able to clean up an insane amount of blood in 79 minutes?

 

[00:11:01] ASHLEY RAY: Also, the cops are so homophobic that they just, like, zero in on this gay throuple. And they’re like, “They have all these sex toys, blah, blah, blah.” And their lawyers are like, “And you’ll see that nobody’s DNA is on it. None of their DNA is anywhere on his body. If what you’re saying happened, there’d be DNA blood everywhere.” And they’re so focused on these, like, gay guys that, like, they don’t even look into this one thread that the documentary goes into where they’re like, “Robert had been doing work that was against the Chinese government or something. He worked at some radio station.”

 

[00:11:34] KARA KLENK: Oh, yeah. Radio Free Asia.

 

[00:11:36] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. And like, they think someone could have been targeting him. And then there was evidence someone maybe ran out of the back of the house and over a fence, which the police didn’t check.

 

[00:11:47] KARA KLENK: And the police fucked up with this blood stuff that they were supposed to use to check for blood. They used it incorrectly. So, they basically ruined evidence. But also, Dr. Henry Lee is involved, who we all remember from O.J. He’s been part of a lot of… I believe even the staircase he’s involved in. He’s involved in a lot of high-profile cases as a forensic expert. He says something completely opposite from the M.E. Like, the M.E. said that this guy was missing two thirds of his body’s blood. Where the fuck is that blood? Nobody could find it. They had a blood sniffing dog. I’ve never really seen… Making a Murderer. Okay. Did he do it? Did he not do it? I mean, chances are he probably fucking did it. Like, there’s just not so many unanswered questions, both forensic and… Like, the way the guys were acting was weird. They were all freshly showered, wearing white bathrobes when the cops got there. It’s just a crazy doc.

 

[00:12:42] LIZA TREYGER: And I did not watch it, but it really is never enough– The cops are just fucking up, you know? They really don’t want to work. They’re also bad at their job when they decide to work. And the amount of cases and victims that are further, like, traumatized, not found, cases lost because of their incompetence–worldwide. We’ve covered cases–France, England–they’ll just fuck it up all over the world. And it is wild. And it’s like these fucking, you know, Nazi homophobes that are like, “All right. That’s it”

 

[00:13:20] KARA KLENK: They keep going, “He’s a married guy. What’s he doing over there with all these gay guys?” It’s like, “They’re longtime friends. He’s known one of those guys for, like, 17 years from college.”

 

[00:13:29] ASHLEY RAY: This is 20something years later, and the cop is still like, “But you’re telling me a straight guy is hanging out with gay guys?”

 

[00:13:37] KARA KLENK: “And no funny business? I don’t know if I believe that.”

 

[00:13:40] ASHLEY RAY: And to this day, the cop is still just like, “I don’t know about that. I don’t know about that.”

 

[00:13:45] KARA KLENK: You know what’s funny is the stuff I think that they used incorrectly–the chemical–I think was called “Agent Ashley.” Shout out to you.

 

[00:13:51] ASHLEY RAY: Wow.

 

[00:13:51] KARA KLENK: And when they explain that in the doc, they just cut to the main investigator going, “Yeah, we took a hit for that.” Like, you guys are dumb!

 

[00:14:01] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. Every time they, like, point out something they did wrong, they’re always like, “I mean, yeah. It turns out we were wrong on that one.”

 

[00:14:06] KARA KLENK: “Yeah, we fucked up.”

 

[00:14:07] ASHLEY RAY:  Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got all the sex toys admitted as evidence. And we were like, “Maybe there’s DNA.” And there wasn’t. And we were totally wrong. And it didn’t help our case. But yeah, no, maybe we were right about it.”

 

[00:14:19] LIZA TREYGER: So, you’re thinking this is espionage, high-end murder

 

[00:14:23] ASHLEY RAY: I think espionage, high-end murder.

 

[00:14:25] KARA KLENK: Well, but here’s a crazy twist–and Liza, this links back to us. There was semen found in his rectum and on his genitals. And when they tested it, it was his own semen. So, we were watching it with my mom. And my mom goes, “How did that get up there?”

 

[00:14:43] ASHLEY RAY: I mean, I feel like that could happen. I feel like a guy jerks off–things are happening…

 

[00:14:49] KARA KLENK: Yeah, they stick a finger up there to check things out. Who fucking knows?

 

[00:14:53] ASHLEY RAY: And also, they don’t detail how far up the rectum or anything. And a lot of times, when they look at all that evidence, they’re just like, “It was around.”

 

[00:15:04] KARA KLENK: I know. Like how there was DNA in JonBenét’s underwear. But it turned out it was sweat from a factory worker in Taiwan where they made the underwear. With this, everybody kept suggesting that maybe they were using electromagnetic ejaculation, which is when you, like, put a probe in their ass and it can make a man come without response or without, like, any stimuli. It makes it happen involuntarily. And it’s been heavily involved in one or two SVU episodes that Liza and I have covered.

 

[00:15:33] LIZA TREYGER: Well, And the true story of it–isn’t it, like, a teenage son died, and the parents wanted his sperm to make grandchildren. So, they wanted to electric rod their teen.

 

[00:15:43] KARA KLENK: Yeah, because you got to get it within, I think, 36 hours of them dying.

 

[00:15:50] ASHLEY RAY: Pretty quickly.

 

[00:15:51] KARA KLENK: You got to get it while it’s hot.

 

[00:16:09] ASHLEY RAY: Let’s go to another show. Liza, do you have another one on your watchlist?

 

[00:16:13] LIZA TREYGER: I watched the sex cult one about Sarah Lawrence.

 

[00:16:16] KARA KLENK: Same.

 

[00:16:17] ASHLEY RAY: There were two, actually. Did you do the one on Hulu or the one on Peacock?

 

[00:16:22] KARA KLENK: Hulu. Stolen Youth.

 

[00:16:22] ASHLEY RAY: The better one.

 

[00:16:26] LIZA TREYGER: So, I was in such a sadness after I watched that that then I watched a more sad thing, which is The Girl in the Photo.

 

[00:16:34] ASHLEY RAY: So sad.

 

[00:16:35] LIZA TREYGER: It’s detrimental to your mood for days, I would say. But both of those–the takeaway, and this happens a lot, is, like, one wrong person. You can meet one wrong person and your life is forever changed. Like the stolen youth kids–young, had a promise, curiosity of life, I’m sure they were rich. Or at least they’re smart. And then one little psycho, not knowing yourself, not being able to stand up for yourself, being like, “Oh, maybe it’s fine.” And then ten years later, you have to crumble your life back together.

 

[00:17:15] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. You’re like, “Oh, I was in a cult.” And that was really sad to watch. And then to see, like, at the end how some of them still had to, like, hold on to that belief. And it’s like, “Oh, clearly if this girl accepts that she was truly in a cult, everything around her will fall apart.” And yeah.

 

[00:17:34] KARA KLENK: With stolen youth, I was angry at the school, too. I feel like colleges are so fucking shady. Like, they never prosecute sex crimes. People told them there’s a grown man Svengali on your campus, manipulating these young people who have just crossed over from high school. Like, why do you–? You know what I mean? And they just did nothing.

 

[00:18:00] ASHLEY RAY: They did nothing. And then still never, like, issued an apology–still were just like, “Oh, yeah. You know, other students did try to tell us, but we did an investigation,” which they’ve never said… What was the investigation? Because it should have just been, “Oh, yeah, there’s an old man living in their common room. Let’s not have that.”

 

[00:18:15] KARA KLENK: “Yeah, we can see he’s taken over the common room.” I don’t know. I’ve known people that have had, like, mental health struggles in college and colleges, like, don’t do anything. They are now costing $60,000 a year to go to these fucking institutions and, like, they do absolutely nothing a lot of the time to work out the welfare and safety of the students. I was on the student jury. I was trying cases of my peers and was like, “I should not be doing this. This is fucking crazy. Why is it not with the police?” Like, it was so nuts.

 

[00:18:51] ASHLEY RAY: It’s this idea that colleges are their own little world and universe that, like, have their own laws. Someone probably should have stepped in. I did like the one girl in the documentary who’s like, “I was yelling at every one of these people. I was starting a website. I was begging people.” And you just see her working so hard to get her friends out of it, and no one was helping her.

 

[00:19:15] KARA KLENK: I know. I hope they somehow, like, find their way back to that girl just to be, like, “Sorry.”

 

[00:19:21] ASHLEY RAY: “So sorry.”

 

[00:19:22] LIZA TREYGER: We have a frenemy. And she one time was like, “Oh, don’t you feel like you could start a cult? I feel like I could start a cult.” And I was like, “No, I actually don’t think I can at all. I’m not really, like, a manipulative liar vibe.” When I told Kara about it, Kara was also like, “Also, why would you want to do that? To lead a cult means you’re a horrific, terrible, awful person.” And she was spinning it as, like, “I could really ruin people’s lives. I’m so charming and manipulative.”

 

[00:19:56] KARA KLENK: I’m like, “Girl, you’ve barely broken 10 K on Twitter. You’re not leading a cult.”

 

[00:20:02] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, come on, you’re not leading a cult. I mean, I’ve watched a lot of cult docs. I know I couldn’t lead one because I just don’t care about what people do in their personal lives that much. Like, I don’t want that much control. I do think I have enough knowledge to be, like, a good number two. If I were in a cult–if I ended up in a cult–I would make my way up the ranks.

 

[00:20:26] KARA KLENK: Absolutely. I would be like, “I think I can handle this responsibility, sir. Please let me do this. I will check and make sure that the girls are not eating their calories today.”

 

[00:20:36] ASHLEY RAY: I would be the Sheila Wild Wild Country where I’m just like, “This is how we have to market this, position this.” Like, I do think I’d be very effective as a cult member.

 

[00:20:48] KARA KLENK: A lieutenant. A cult lieutenant, but not the number one person.

 

[00:20:52] ASHLEY RAY: But again, I don’t think I’d fall into a cult because I just hate doing group activities, so…

 

[00:20:58] KARA KLENK: Volleyball? At night?

 

[00:21:01] ASHLEY RAY: Please. Ugh.

 

[00:21:03] LIZA TREYGER: That girl was too strong. She was like, “Fuck this dude.” And I’m sure the dad was like, “Ugh.” It’s easy to manipulate people when you’re naive and, like, positive. That’s why great people do get tricked, you know? They’re not all fucking idiots.

 

[00:21:17] ASHLEY RAY: They’re just nice, good people.

 

[00:21:19] LIZA TREYGER: Like, it’s the classic thing of you’re not suspicious of other people lying unless you’re a liar. Whatever it is. And, you know, I talk so much shit and I’m so judgmental of everyone. And people are like, “No one cares what you’re doing.” I’m like, “I can’t believe that because I’m judging everyone.”

 

[00:21:37] ASHLEY RAY: Everyone.

 

[00:21:38] LIZA TREYGER: Nonstop. I’m thinking about all of you. So, the thought of like, “You know, when you’re 60, you realize no one cared about what you were doing.” I’m like, “I just don’t buy that. But that’s my own flaws projected out.”

 

[00:21:50] ASHLEY RAY: Kara, on your list, you also had YellowJackets. I want to talk about it. I haven’t talked about it.

 

[00:21:54] KARA KLENK: Liza, too. We’re both into it.

 

[00:21:55] ASHLEY RAY: Both into it.

 

[00:21:57] LIZA TREYGER: Well, Kara is not watching this season, so…

 

[00:22:00] KARA KLENK: What are you talking about? I’m only one episode behind.

 

[00:22:01] LIZA TREYGER: Oh my God, I thought you didn’t start yet.

 

[00:22:05] KARA KLENK: I got to the big episode, and then I just haven’t seen last Friday’s. I’m going to watch it tonight.

 

[00:22:10] ASHLEY RAY: Okay, so last Friday’s–it got a lot of flak from critics who said it was the worst episode of the show, which I don’t know if I agreed. They said it kind of went too many places. There’s, like, a musical interlude. John Cameron Mitchell is there. A lot of wild things happen in this episode.

 

[00:22:29] LIZA TREYGER: Listen, it is a little wild. It’s interesting that the critics hated it. I mean, I don’t think the season is as strong as Season One. Like, I don’t think that’s a secret. But I always love a scene with Practical Magic vibes. I like when the women get together, drink… Spooky in the woods. I like the female friendship positivity outside of this torture we’ve seen them live, so I’ll lower my expectations of plot or character or whatever for women having a good time drinking and bonding.

 

[00:22:59] ASHLEY RAY: Exactly. And also, that whole mystical part is Misty’s imagination. So, I’m like, “Yeah, they can go crazy there.” I loved it for the women drinking. Like you said, Practical Magic–

 

[00:23:12] LIZA TREYGER: What was Misty’s thing? I don’t even remember.

 

[00:23:14] ASHLEY RAY: She goes into the sleep deprivation tank.

 

[00:23:16] LIZA TREYGER: Yeah, but what was the vision?

 

[00:23:17] ASHLEY RAY: She has a vision of her bird, Caligula, dancing with Elijah Wood’s character. And they’re doing this whole musical number. And then the bird is a giant bird mascot costume. And then he takes his hat off and it’s John Cameron Mitchell.

 

[00:23:32] KARA KLENK: Has he been introduced in the show previously?

 

[00:23:34] ASHLEY RAY: No, no. He’s, like, playing Caligula. He’s, like, playing the bird as a person. And, like, he has a bird nose as a human. And he’s like, “I’m Caligula personified by this person. And I’m talking to you, Misty, and giving you advice.” And then she gets inspired.

 

[00:23:51] LIZA TREYGER: And the thing is, why would critics be mad? If you go into an isolation chamber, the whole point is to have something weird in your brain. It makes sense. It’s not like a quick departure. I don’t think it’s a departure.

 

[00:24:04] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, I thought it made sense, especially for her. And I thought it was a great episode. We got the girls back together.

 

[00:24:12] KARA KLENK: I’m excited to see the girls back together. I was happy that they all somehow got back to the cult area. I will say this season feels like it’s highlighting more for me a tiny problem I have with the show because I’m, like, 99% obsessed with the show. I really love it. My little problem with it is to me, tonally, it’s so weird when we bounce back and forth from the past to the present. Like, the past is so fucking intense. Like, obviously it’s life or death. And then the present it’s like. Melanie Lynskey–there’s no urgency that her character has committed a murder and the cops are closing in. She’s like, “Yeah, I told the daughter everything. I don’t know.” Like, she just seems so lax. And then Misty is so wacky.

 

[00:24:57] ASHLEY RAY: That was a really good impression of her–the way you said, “I don’t know.” You nailed that.

 

[00:25:01] KARA KLENK: You know, she’s just like, “Well, what can I do?” And then, like, Misty is also so wild. Her and Elijah Wood, like, interrogating the guy on the boat was high jinks. I love high jinks. It’s just so, like, jarring to go back and forth from that to that because to me, Taissa and Juliette Lewis–Natalie–they both have funny moments in their real life. I’m not saying real life has to be as serious as the past. But they have funny moments, but then they’re also, like, really grounded. Everything that’s happening to them is very serious, even though there’s funny moments. And then, like, just with Misty and Shauna–especially how serious Shauna is back at the cabin, and then in real life, she’s like, “Are you just fucking your boyfriend again? All right.” Like, nothing bothers her.

 

[00:25:54] LIZA TREYGER: I also am like, “You’re going to get caught. Like, you’re fucking in this art room.”

 

[00:26:01] ASHLEY RAY: Everything about it was messy.

 

[00:26:02] LIZA TREYGER: The theories from there are that they’re trapped. They’re going back to being teens. They’re not delusional. What is it when you’re…? Disassociating. It’s very on the nose with Van working at a video store. They’re all stuck as teens. And I feel if that’s kind of where their personalities are coming from, that makes sense where it’s like, you know, she’s always been chaos. She’s always fucking her best– She’s the Raquel.

 

[00:26:30] ASHLEY RAY: She’s always cheating.

 

[00:26:33] LIZA TREYGER: She’s the shadiness. And then with the birth and everything, you see the true trauma of her best friend dying, feeling responsible for it, then this child. I think she’s trapped in a mental thing that’s been broken. She’s been able to hide it. And then from the moment she chopped up that bunny in her kitchen, I think she just went back to being feral or things don’t matter because they were life and death as teens. But something with their mental well-being is definitely influencing.

 

[00:27:05] KARA KLENK: Yeah, yeah. I actually haven’t thought of that, and that’s a great point. I guess I just feel like the performances are a little goofier from those two. They’re giving me so much more goof than like Taissa or Natalie or Van.

 

[00:27:22] LIZA TREYGER: But Natalie’s joining the cult–

 

[00:27:23] ASHLEY RAY: That part is just a little silly to me.

 

[00:27:24] KARA KLENK: I don’t like that.

 

[00:27:27] LIZA TREYGER: Has she joined?

 

[00:27:27] KARA KLENK: She’s wearing purple.

 

[00:27:30] ASHLEY RAY: She’s wearing purple.

 

[00:27:33] KARA KLENK: The whole series I kept going, “Why has she not walked the fuck out of here? I’m so confused.” I thought she was trying to get some information out of dark-haired girl. Lottie. Charlotte. I thought she was trying to, like, stay to get some info out of her. And now it seems like the last episode that I watched, she is, like, getting into it now.

 

[00:27:55] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. She sneaks into Lottie’s cabin and finds stuff in their phones. She, like, tries to make it this whole moment, and then they’re like, “Yeah, we know. We don’t care.” And I think that’s when she’s like, “Oh, there’s nothing for me to really find out. I’m just going to be into it.” And I’m like, “But why? Why is she into this?” That hasn’t made sense to me.

 

[00:28:14] LIZA TREYGER: You know what I do love, though, is that Lottie is suffering from schizophrenia. I love that everyone’s like, “Wait. Wasn’t she in the psych ward?” And then you find out the therapist… It’s like, “Oh. Run, bitch.” Like, I don’t like Natalie being caught up in this.

 

[00:28:35] ASHLEY RAY: Girl, don’t… Yeah, let’s not. I don’t want to know.

 

[00:28:38] KARA KLENK: Do you think that whole thing with all the bees being dead was just a vision?

 

[00:28:42] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. She’s just, like, seeing shit and losing it.

 

[00:28:48] KARA KLENK: Maybe they address this a little bit in the last episode that I haven’t watched yet, but, like, what the fuck happened to Javi.

 

[00:28:53] ASHLEY RAY: Ooh.

 

[00:28:57] LIZA TREYGER: Remember someone pooped in the bucket? Meat was disappearing? I think during that mushrooms thing, Shauna grabbed him and was like, “Run, and don’t ever come back.” And I think he was scared. People had knives. They were wild that night. He’s a kid. I don’t think he put it together. Like, “Ah, they’re just tripping.” And I think he was hiding out in the wilderness but sneaking around to get food and warmth at times. But the fact that the green around the tree was melted and Taissa knew where he was…

 

[00:29:39] KARA KLENK: I also don’t know how you could survive in the woods just off of, like, a little bit of stolen meat and stuff.

 

[00:29:44] LIZA TREYGER: But that’s how the girls survive.

 

[00:29:47] ASHLEY RAY: But they have at least the cabin. Shelter from the wind.

 

[00:29:49] KARA KLENK: They sleep together. They’d see smoke if he lit a fire. I think they’re trying to act like he went into a wormhole or something that’s, like, sci fi.

 

[00:29:59] LIZA TREYGER: Yeah. But Lottie knows about it. They do keep making eye contact. Shit’s weird, but I do think the woods– I mean, I think they’re leaning pretty heavily on the fantastical, which I didn’t think they were going to go.

 

[00:30:11] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, I didn’t think it was going to go there.

 

[00:30:13] LIZA TREYGER: I’m a little upset about how much supernatural is involved.

 

[00:30:16] KARA KLENK: Yeah, same.

 

[00:30:19] LIZA TREYGER: But… What are you going to do?

 

[00:30:20] KARA KLENK: I’m just not really big into supernatural stuff. I mean, I’d watch Game of Thrones and a couple of things. But that just is not really my wheelhouse.

 

[00:30:28] ASHLEY RAY: Same. I’m thinking logically. I’m like, “You guys… If you got bodies, eat them.”

 

[00:30:35] KARA KLENK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God. The fact that they just let her dress that girl up. I was like, “No, you guys are going to make fucking burgers out of that girl ASAP.” And I’m a vegetarian.

 

[00:30:46] ASHLEY RAY: You’re out here burying the veal, and it’s like, “What are you doing, girlie? Come on.”

 

[00:30:52] LIZA TREYGER: Well, I have a fun question that’s in line with the theme. How many people do you think Misty has killed in her life?

 

[00:30:58] ASHLEY RAY: Ooh. Huh.

 

[00:30:59] LIZA TREYGER: She’s a serial killer.

 

[00:31:00] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, she’s definitely a serial killer. She’s killed a few people.

 

[00:31:03] LIZA TREYGER: Oh, but one theory Kara had him in the beginning– I was like, “Shut up, you fucking idiot.” But they do keep teasing it in the little “Previously on” is the cigarette girl might have lived.

 

[00:31:16] KARA KLENK: Yeah, because I was like, “Did she die?” And Liza was like, “Of course, you moron. She died.” And if you want more of this chemistry, please tune in to our podcast.

 

[00:31:23] ASHLEY RAY: Wait, who is the cigarette girl?

 

[00:31:25] KARA KLENK: The woman that was investigating her. The journalist. Season One. Remember, she’s smoking a cigarette, and she goes, “You fucking bitch.” And then she, like, passes out on her steering wheel. They keep alluding to it. So, they’re either trying to allude to it that she’s still alive or that just Missy is a killer.

 

[00:31:40] LIZA TREYGER: Ooh. Or Elijah Wood is connected to that one.

 

[00:31:43] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, that’s what I also thought. I thought like Elijah Wood may be working with her or something. That’s why he’s suspicious of Misty.

 

[00:31:52] LIZA TREYGER: Because I’m really upset that she would lie to him. She was messy in a way that I don’t think is characteristic of Misty.

 

[00:31:59] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah.

 

[00:31:59] LIZA TREYGER: But I think that’s why they did the flashback where it’s like once she feels so connected, she spills the beans or is too honest or flustered that someone actually likes her.

 

[00:32:09] ASHLEY RAY: Likes her and, you know, is like her.

 

[00:32:10] KARA KLENK: Oh yeah. That’s when she told the girl… Oh my God.

 

[00:32:13] ASHLEY RAY: And they got close. I knew that was coming. I was just like, “Girl, come on.”

 

[00:32:19] KARA KLENK: Also, are we ever going to meet these three miscellaneous girls that are hanging out in the cabin? There’s, like, three or four girls that we don’t know.

 

[00:32:25] ASHLEY RAY: They just randomly were like, “Let’s make them characters because–oh, right–we need, like, some mystery of who lives with you guys and what they’re going to eat.

 

[00:32:32] LIZA TREYGER: Well, it could be Orange is the New Black style where then later on we’ll get more and more about these girls. But I don’t get why Misty is so against eating the girl.

 

[00:32:43] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. I thought at first, she was like, “I’ll bring her body and be a hero for feeding everyone.” And then she was like, “I won’t let them eat you.” And I’m like, “Girl, that’s going to cover up your evidence of what you did. So…”

 

[00:32:56] LIZA TREYGER: Also, isn’t that where they throw the poop buckets? How is she not covered in poop?

 

[00:33:01] KARA KLENK: That’s immediately what I thought. “Oh my God, she’s going to be covered in shit.”

 

[00:33:05] ASHLEY RAY: Because they had just thrown shit over. So, we’re going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we’re going to talk to Kara and Liza about some classic Law & Order: SVU episodes and the crimes that inspired them. We’re going to get into what you’re experts on, so we’ll be right back. So please tell us about That’s Messed Up and what you guys talk about on the podcast. You know, I know that you don’t love the current season of SVU.

 

[00:33:40] KARA KLENK: Well, the good thing about that is that that was the 24th season. So honestly, there was a showrunner that has been in and out for the past decade or something that left after last season. And they got this new guy. And actually, the LA times did, like, a full exposé on how he’s an abusive boss.

 

[00:33:56] ASHLEY RAY: Oh no.

 

[00:33:57] KARA KLENK: So, I don’t know about his situation, but I feel like he’s behind this season. It’s really kind of all over the place. I will say, last Thursday’s episode I’m watching right now and I’m really into it. So, a couple episodes have grabbed me this season, but overall, it’s been really all over the place. Every episode is like, “This involves the lead guy–the head architect of the city.”

 

[00:34:24] LIZA TREYGER: “The number one lifeguard.”

 

[00:34:25] KARA KLENK: “The number one soccer player in the world.” I liked it when it was just regular New Yorkers dealing with, like, the everyday. And a couple of times this season, “Don’t you know who this family is? They’re the heir to the ball bearing fortune or whatever.” Do you know what I mean? There’d be random shit like that. But this whole season has been like, “New York’s elite gets assaulted.” It’s like, “Wait, what?” But the podcast is basically we were just thinking of, like, a different way into true crime. And we’ve both seen every episode of the show a mentally ill number of times. And I was like, “You know, I think 75% of the episodes are based on a true crime.” And even if they’re not, they take little snatches from true crime that we can latch on to. And we’ve honestly covered major cases like Michael Jackson and, you know, Pizzagate–stuff that’s pretty in the news. But then we’ve researched a lot of really like lesser-known cases that have been really interesting to learn about.

 

[00:35:32] ASHLEY RAY: They’re going to do like a Sarah Lawrence SVU episode. They have to, right?

 

[00:35:38] LIZA TREYGER: They better. They also still haven’t done a Housewives one, which to me is wild.

 

[00:35:42] KARA KLENK: Yeah. I mean, I have a friend that literally sends me a story every two weeks that she’s like, “This is the next SVU episode.” I mean, unfortunately, there’s so much horrific shit going on in the world, but…

 

[00:35:52] LIZA TREYGER: Hopefully this showrunner will be out though. But what happens to me often, I’ll be like, “I don’t know.” And then I’ll watch eight in a day. So, I could say, “Oh, I don’t know about Season 24–” And then I’ll watch it all.

 

[00:36:07] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, I think that’s how I watch the show. I can’t think of any time I sat down and watched one episode of Law & Order. It just happens. You’re just there. The next thing you know, you watch the whole season.

 

[00:36:19] KARA KLENK: And Season One through 12– 12 is when Meloni leaves. At the end of 12, Meloni leaves. So, Seasons One through 15, I’ve seen every episode multiple, multiple times. I would say maybe 16 to 24–I’ve only seen every one once or twice. And so, yeah, it’s always good to go back and revisit–some of them are better than we remember–especially when we do it on the podcast. And then on our podcast we also interview an actor from the episode.

 

[00:36:43] ASHLEY RAY: Oh, that’s really cool.

 

[00:36:44] KARA KLENK: We talk to all these cool people.

 

[00:36:45] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, because so many famous people come up through Law & Order. Come on.

 

[00:36:49] KARA KLENK: Yeah.

 

[00:36:50] LIZA TREYGER: And I wanted to give a shout-out to the showrunner from Season Two to 12 is Neal Baer. And he’s been on our pod twice. And what was cool, you know, they’re based on real events. And so, talking to someone that kind of created some of the best seasons… He is a doctor, so a lot of them are medical journals. He is reading the news. He is a genius. So, what’s really special about those seasons is everything is real. Like, what BD Wong says is real. What the doctors are saying are real because they have a fucking doctor that is show running. He’s a professor.

 

[00:37:20] ASHLEY RAY: And it feels real. Yeah.

 

[00:37:23] LIZA TREYGER: Yeah. And so, there was this thing where everything is based on wild little town crimes, little medical things, DNA evidence, where he really killed it. And he had a knack for humor because he is, like, a funny gay man. And he also loves old Hollywood. And that’s why the casting was so great. He really, like, loved these women and brought Carol Burnett and wanted to make these women get Emmys and stuff. And so, it is really glorious–Two through 12–because it’s humor, it’s reality, it’s compelling and it’s passionate. And Warren Leight is different and passionate in a different way. But he didn’t have that medical stuff.

 

[00:38:09] KARA KLENK: And a big part of this, I think, is Richard Belzer–R.I.P.–was a standup comedian who played one of these detectives. Plus, you know, Ice-T has great comic timing as well. So, there was always a little bit of lightness. We’ve talked to many guests that are like, “If you don’t joke around, the subject matter is so fucking heavy.” Hence our podcast. I mean, we never make light of actual victims, but we’re trying to find some humor in the show because the earlier seasons did have a couple really campy ones and were funny even when they were really, really rough in terms of the storyline. And now it just feels like when I watch it, the lighting is dark, it’s so dark, and it just feels like a lot of times it’s like, “Yeah, this is part of our problem in America with immigration.” And it’s like, “I don’t know, SVU. I’m getting a lot of this from the news.” Do you know what I mean? Like, they’ll just handle these, like, really heavy topics and it just feels like everything’s very heavy in the world. And I kind of wish that they would segue back a little bit to finding a little bit more humor–just amongst the detectives. I’m not asking anyone to giggle over a dead body, you know.

 

[00:39:18] ASHLEY RAY: They could do an episode on that woman who killed her husband and then wrote a book about how to grieve your dead husband?

 

[00:39:24] KARA KLENK: Yes. Oh my God. That’s the one a friend just sent me. That is so good. Wrote a children’s book about how to grieve. It’s so good. And like, you know, even in the teens, they did a Goop episode, where they kind of poked fun at Gwyneth Paltrow. You know what I mean? Just the last season or whatever–or maybe just the last one, really–it just feels too…

 

[00:39:47] LIZA TREYGER: Yeah, the mummification one was wild. One of them–the cold open–burnt a teenager in front of our eyes. A corpse is burning, and the credits haven’t even rolled. And I’m like, “What the fuck? You’ve just ruined my life with this memory. And I’m ruining all of yours right now listening.”

 

[00:40:06] ASHLEY RAY: Now I’m thinking about it.

 

[00:40:08] LIZA TREYGER: Yes, she’s, like, screaming and getting burnt in front of all her friends. And I’m like, “Oh my God.”

 

[00:40:14] KARA KLENK: And that’s an episode about, like, border crossing and trafficking and stuff, you know? But there is a new guy, who we just had on our podcast, named Kevin Kane. His character does seem like he’s bringing a bit of humor to it. He’s this actor who has worked a lot with Amy Schumer and been on Inside Amy Schumer a lot. I really like him, and I hope they make him a regular because I think he’s bringing back a little of that sarcasm.

 

[00:40:40] LIZA TREYGER: Well, it’s hysterical. So basically, he’s a detective. He’s a cop from the Bronx, but he sued the department for something.

 

[00:40:48] KARA KLENK: Corruption.

 

[00:40:50] LIZA TREYGER: And he won millions of dollars. He’s, like, a rich guy, but he still loves it. So, he goes to SVU to really help. But he’s rich, so he’ll give, like, a sex worker a Rolex and be like, “Just tell us the goods.”

 

[00:41:04] KARA KLENK: He has a wad of cash on him all the time.

 

[00:41:08] ASHLEY RAY: That was what I always thought was missing in Law & Order was more bribery.

 

[00:41:15] KARA KLENK: But he’s doing it for the good. He’s like a Robin Hood, you know?

 

[00:41:18] LIZA TREYGER: Yeah, it’s been silly. But yeah, in terms of the plot–big crimes, small crimes, some that you really have to dig and get Wichita Eagle subscriptions because there is a gag order on the case–it really varies from like Scott Peterson to famous NBA players to, like, tiny, tiny towns in Canada.

 

[00:41:41] ASHLEY RAY: I want to talk about a favorite episode that you sent over. It’s called Zebras–Season 10, Episode 22.

 

[00:41:49] KARA KLENK: Oh, yeah.

 

[00:41:50] ASHLEY RAY: “A tourist is found dead in Central Park with the word ‘guilty’ written on her forehead. Munch is forced to confront his ex-wife for advice when a conspiracy theorist becomes the main suspect.”

 

[00:42:00] LIZA TREYGER: Yeah. Did you watch it?

 

[00:42:01] ASHLEY RAY: Yes. Oh, I watched this one. I remember watching this one in real time. I wanted to talk about it because I thought it kind of had Who Killed Robert Wone vibes, where I’m like, “Bigger story. Conspiracy.” But then I was like, “I don’t actually know the real story behind this one.” Like, what’s going on?

 

[00:42:16] KARA KLENK: Well, the real story behind this one was a woman who was killed by a man, who was suffering from schizophrenia and mental illness, by being pushed in front of the subway because that’s what the guy in it had done. So, this one was one of the ones where just a piece was based. There’s obviously not a story of a forensic tech who goes rogue and stages a bunch of murders to frame a schizophrenic man who kills his lawyer in a car. And then, you know, a cop ends up kissing him so that she can free her partner from his clutches. Unfortunately, no direct lines on that one. But it was the Kendra Webdale case. It’s not a little case, obviously; a woman lost her life. It’s not as well known. But then laws pertaining to that case have since passed that involve, like, when you can commit a person–when you can commit a person that’s just walking down the street, violent, but maybe hasn’t committed a crime yet. I don’t know. I actually have to refresh my memory on all the research on that. But, like, it was basically about involuntary commitment and stuff like that because I think he had had a couple of violent– The guy who did it had had a couple of violent incidents and just still was being let out and unsupervised. So, yeah. Not that I think people should just be involuntarily committed by the state, but in this man’s case, he seemed like he needed help. He, I feel like, asked for help and wasn’t getting it. It was a really, really big failure on, like, the city of New York.

 

[00:43:53] LIZA TREYGER: Yeah. It’s Kendra’s Law if anyone wants to…

 

[00:43:57] ASHLEY RAY: Wow. And that’s so much more interesting than all the craziness on the show–and educational. Do you like to watch any of the other Law & Order spin-offs? Do you do, like, the Organized Crime? That’s the one with Chris Meloni–that he came back to. Are you watching any of those?

 

[00:44:14] KARA KLENK: When I was younger, I dabbled in original recipe–the Jerry Orbach years, the Jesse L. Martin years, the Christopher Noth years. Like, I definitely have seen a bunch of that. It never grabbed me in the same way that it was appointment television like SVU was for me. But I do watch O.C. I never watched Criminal Intent, and I don’t watch the new Law Order reboot. But I do watch O.C., and I really like it. It’s not like SVU or Law & Order. It’s more a full plot. Like, a season will be about like the O.C. Task Force handling one gang. So, it’s like a season of Narcos, for example. You know, it’ll just be one storyline, and then they move on to another storyline the next season, you know? So, they’ve dealt with corrupt cops, the Albanian mafia… But I got to say, Stabler’s a star. He really carries it. I’m interested in it. I like the people around him. He’s got a great costar named Danielle Moné Truittt, who’s great. She plays his boss. And they kind of are, like, buddy partners. And she’s a lesbian woman who’s let the job get between her wife and her kids.

 

[00:45:20] ASHLEY RAY: Oh, I love that.

 

[00:45:21] KARA KLENK: Yeah. So, it’s good. And Stabler lives in a very sexy Brooklyn apartment.

 

[00:45:28] ASHLEY RAY: Ooh, it kind of sounds like The Wire. It’s like, “Oh, we got a lesbian. They’re going up against gangs.”

 

[00:45:34] KARA KLENK: Yeah, it’s very, like, about Mafia. But, like, it’s not just Mafia the way you know it. Like, they’ll go after, like, cyber-attacks–like hackers and stuff. Organized crime is not just, like, a bunch of mob guys smoking cigars and planning their next bank robbery. Like, a lot of the O.C. stuff is like, “Oh, wow. I never even realized that this cultural group has, like, its own underground crime syndicates or that, like, hacking can lead to X, Y, Z, you know?” So, I’m really into it.

 

[00:46:04] ASHLEY RAY: Okay. I’m now going to watch it. I love Chris Meloni, so I’m in.  One last question. Can you each recommend one fave SVU episode that listeners can watch who don’t normally watch the show? Where would you tell them, “Do this one”?

 

[00:46:19] LIZA TREYGER: It’s just so hard because it’s like, “Do you want to be traumatized or do you want to have a laugh?” So that’s really tough. Do you want to learn a lesson? Do you want to be heartbroken? Do you want justice? Well, the funniest one is Wildlife. Like, if you want to see a monkey pop out of a basketball at an airport, that’s the one for you. If you want to see undercover Benson sex worker, you know, that one’s really fun. With Zebras, one of our, like, fun things that we do– You know at the end, Benson knows something’s wrong with Stabler because Stuckey picks up the phone and goes, “Oh, he went out for sushi.” And she’s like, “That motherfucker doesn’t eat sushi.” So, we always like to say, like, “What’s our sushi?” And so that’s just a fun game.

 

[00:47:05] KARA KLENK: And I asked Liza, “So what’s your sushi?” She goes, “I don’t know. Like, if someone said she’s out doing an escape room.”

 

[00:47:11] ASHLEY RAY: That’s a good one.

 

[00:47:14] KARA KLENK: I hope someone kidnaps you and tells me that on the phone so that I can alert the authorities.

 

[00:47:17] ASHLEY RAY: Mine would be playing volleyball. I’m not doing that.

 

[00:47:22] LIZA TREYGER: So, I would say one that resonates sadly still today but is so layered and so good is Raw. And it’s from an earlier season. Marcia Gay Harden is a guest star. And it’s, you know, kids are shot at a school, and it’s tied to a group of Nazis. But we have a kid saying the N-word directly to Ice-T’s face on NBC primetime. It is pretty wild. There’s a lot of slurs. There’s a lot of guns. There’s a lot of Nazis. And it is honestly a movie in an hour. It’s really, really compelling television.

 

[00:48:01] KARA KLENK: So many twists. And it was one of our first episodes we ever covered on the podcast. And we did get Marcia Gay Harden. So, if you watch it, then listen to our episode, and you can hear her side of everything.

 

[00:48:11] LIZA TREYGER: And then the other one I always loved–and when Kara and I started this podcast, I was like, “We got to get Ari Graynor. Damage is my favorite episode. We got to get her.” And we got her, we taped it, and it was going to be our first episode. And then we had a meeting with the network, and they’re like, “Could we do child rape and murder for Episode One?” And we’re like, “Oh yeah, duh.” Like, we’re too desensitized. That might not be an entry way for a lot of people.” And so, we picked a lighter episode. But Damaged is… Like, the twistedness–you go to SVU. Ari Graynor sets up a shooting in a Blockbuster Video to murder her sister who her and her boyfriend were raping and gave gonorrhea to. And there’s an adoption element. I do love this because in our world we’re ACAB. Duh. But in the show, the cops are breaking laws, and we’re like, “Get ’em.”

 

[00:49:10] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. “Beat them up.”

 

[00:49:13] LIZA TREYGER: And so, there’s a trickery element I love where it’s like they convince someone to go outside because you can’t arrest someone in their home. And there’s a really epic moment–a little nugget–that I really love. And yeah, so those are the two intense but dramatic and sad, but not, like, will haunt you forever. So those are mine. And they’re early seasons.

 

[00:49:37] ASHLEY RAY: Those are good recs.

 

[00:49:39] KARA KLENK: And I would say also… Like, I’m just looking at lists of ones we’ve covered. Babes is about a pregnancy pact of teenagers.

 

[00:49:46] ASHLEY RAY: That one’s good.

 

[00:49:48] LIZA TREYGER: Debi Mazar is in it.

 

[00:49:50] KARA KLENK: There’s a few episodes like this. But there’s an episode called Mean that’s about, like, popular girls and, like, kid dynamics and stuff. Teen dynamics in school and queen bees and wannabe type things.

 

[00:50:03] ASHLEY RAY: I always love that. If you’re not watching, by the way, Killer Cheerleaders on Oxygen. Very good show about just that. It’s just called Killer Cheerleaders. And it’s about mean girls killing other mean girls. And they find all these stories from the ’80s of, straight up, girls who are like, “And so this person was jealous and murdered this girl.”

 

[00:50:25] KARA KLENK: Yeah, we did one of those. What was the one where the girl that you covered, Liza, was so–?

 

[00:50:32] LIZA TREYGER: I think it was for Mean.

 

[00:50:35] KARA KLENK: Yeah. The real-life case of that was so sad. But Stranger is another one. Wild. Fucked up, but Wild. I mean, a lot of these things–you watch the episode, and you’re like, “Isn’t there a movie of this?” Identity is a crazy one, too. It involves twins. I mean, I literally was just talking about this one the other day. So those are just a few. But I agree with Liza. Zebras, Wildlife–a couple of those are more campy. There are ones we like to do on our live shows. We do one called Sacrifice.

 

[00:51:11] LIZA TREYGER: That is with Mark-Paul Gosselaar, Zach from Saved by the Bell, and Elizabeth Banks in the beginning of her career. So, it’s star-studded.

 

[00:51:24] ASHLEY RAY: That’s a good episode. I remember this one.

 

[00:51:26] KARA KLENK: Night? It’s Angela Lansbury. It’s Bradley Cooper.

 

[00:51:31] LIZA TREYGER: Alfred Molina.

 

[00:51:32] KARA KLENK: Alfred Molina. And that one’s actually a crossover with Trial by Jury, but they make them so standalone that you don’t even have to watch that if you don’t want to.

 

[00:51:39] ASHLEY RAY: R.I.P. Trial by Jury.

 

[00:51:41] KARA KLENK: I know. 13 episodes. That’s all they got.

 

[00:51:44] ASHLEY RAY: And it didn’t get to last, that one. But listeners, you should watch all of these amazing episodes. You probably have. Go listen then to That’s Messed Up: An SVU Podcast where you can hear even more behind the scenes details about these amazing episodes. And listen wherever you get your podcasts.

 

[00:52:00] KARA KLENK: And there’s also a rare phenomenon where people listen to our podcast and they don’t watch SVU. So, feel free to give it a try because we recap the episode in a lot of detail. So, you just don’t even need to watch it. A lot of people are like, “I just like hearing you guys talk about it. The show’s too traumatic for me to watch. I just like to hear you talk about it.”

 

[00:52:19] LIZA TREYGER: I had a friend come to our live show in New York. And she doesn’t watch, she just listens. And during our live shows we have slideshows. And she was like, “Wait, that’s what Munch looks like?” She had concocted a full different Munch in her head. And so, I don’t know. I love it. I love the pod. And as you know, we cover small town crime and crimes you may not know about. One of the greatest gifts of this podcast, I would say, is being able to talk to career, working actors, directors, who have worked for decades, who are amazing–so talented. You just don’t know their names. You know their faces. And I love talking to them. And they know all the famous people. They’re willing to give a little dirt. But it’s just inspiring and really cool to watch–to talk to these people. I love it.

 

[00:53:10] ASHLEY RAY: Well, is there anything else you want to plug? Social media? Where can people follow you?

 

[00:53:14] LIZA TREYGER: Live shows, live shows, live shows. Linktree, Linktree, Linktree.

 

[00:53:18] KARA KLENK: Yeah. We’re going to be doing live shows, coming up in June, in San Francisco, Tempe, Arizona, Denver and LA. And you can get tickets and info on that at that’smesseduplive.com.

 

[00:53:30] LIZA TREYGER: And then I’m on the road doing stand-up. And I’ll be doing stand-up in Phoenix and Denver right after we’re there. But also, yeah, I have some dates through November on my Glittercheese Instagram.

 

[00:53:43] ASHLEY RAY: Boom. There you go. Go follow. Go listen. And yeah, that’s the episode today. Listeners, I’m going to give you a little bit of homework. All you need to do is watch Succession because we have a big finale episode next week. We’re going to sit with Laci Mosley. We’re going to talk about Succession’s finale, Ted Lasso’s finale, all of these shows that are coming to an end. So, you’re not going to want to miss that. Be prepared. Watch those shows. And we’ll be back next week with another episode. TV, I Say with Ashley Ray is an Earwolf production made by me, Ashley Ray-Harris. It’s engineered by Abby Aguilar, produced by Scott Sonne, executive produced by Amelia Chappelow. And our original theme song is by RaFia. It means so much to me if you go rate, review, subscribe. Follow TV, I Say. Let us know what you think and tell your friends. Share with your Golden Girls. Tell your Boys. If you love my TV recommendations, let everyone you know know. For special TV Club members, join my Patreon. And you can also find my full archive of ad free episodes of TV, I Say over on Stitcher Premium. Use Promo code “tvisay”–all one word–for a one-month free trial at stitcher.com/premium.