EP. 218 — A Black Woman in America

[00:00:05] CHRIS: Hello to everybody who’s stressed and scared and exhausted, a.k.a. everybody. It’s Beautiful Anonymous. One hour, one phone call, no names, no holds barred. 

[00:00:05] THEME MUSIC: I’d rather go one-on-one. I think it’ll be more fun and I’ll get to know you and you’ll get to know me.

[00:00:30] CHRIS: The dam has officially broken in America here, huh? What a really, truly just emotional week. If you’re, if you’re listening to this in June of 2020, you know we are in the thick of it when this comes out. You’ve seen the videos of horrific incidents, you’ve seen protests, you’ve seen protests breaking down and police tear gassing protesters, attacking protesters, tackling them in the streets. You’ve heard our president saying protesters are terrorists and threatening military in the streets. It’s a really insane time in America.

We took last week off. We did that in solidarity with the music industry, led blackout to stop promoting things for a day and instead promote other people’s projects, specifically people of color. This week, I promoted MunaLuchi magazine, all over my social media. My friend Jackie from middle school started the first ever bridal magazine aimed at women of color. Go check it out. She did a fantastic TED talk. The conversation you’re going to hear today is with a black woman who is obviously processing everything that’s happening. We talked so much about that. When you hear the anger and the fear in my voice and the caller’s voice, it’s very real. It’s very real. We also talk about her life story, which is an amazingly impactful story that’s also profoundly tragic in its own right. So it’s a pretty fascinating call because we talk so much about the larger societal happenings right now and the personal side of it. And all of it is really gripping and really intense. And I will tell you, I say in the course of the call, I did my best to listen more than I talked. I think I still did a bad job of that, even though I continuously recognized that it was happening. I am so worked up and mad and sad. And I do think she and I connected very clearly on so many things that I would go on these rants. I apologize. I apologized to the caller while that was happening, I knew I was going off and saying that. But what we did is, you will see this call, I just said no buzzer on this one, no buzzer on this one. Let’s let it go as long as it needs to, to make sure that anything you need to get out there gets out there. Any points that I feel like I need to get on the soapbox about, I can. And we’ll just keep checking in, making sure you feel like anything you have to say has been said. I think now is the time to pick a side, everybody. I think it’s official. We have to. And if people like me, a young dad who wants to enjoy his family and people like you out there, who are these empathy, if we all get going and if we all wake up, that’s the sleeping dragon in America. So I also want to say too, personal note, if you’re in northern New Jersey specifically Union, Essex, Morris County and there’s any resistance groups, let me know. I want to join up. I can’t find them through Google Research. Help me out. Let me know if you’re out there. Anyway, this call very impactful. This caller has so much to say, has a right to say it all. And I hope this call helps further wake you up and motivate you to take action.

[00:03:54] PHONE ROBOT: Thank you for calling Beautiful Anonymous, a beeping noise will indicate when you are on the show with the host.

[00:04:01] CHRIS: Hello?

[00:04:02] CALLER: Hi! (laughs)

[00:04:05] CHRIS: Hi, how’s it going? 

[00:04:07] CALLER: How’s it going? 

[00:04:09] CHRIS: How’s it going for me? Well, we’re recording this on June 5th, 2020, so I’ll be honest and say, how’s it going? It’s not good. It’s not good. I’ve been stressed and pissed all week and frustrated and wishing I could do more and mad that I moved to the suburbs when I did, because New York City is one of the places where the battle is being fought. And I moved a month ago, a couple of months ago, maybe. I’m not there. So that’s how I’m doing. That’s how I’m doing. But that’s how a lot of us are doing. How are you doing?

[00:04:45] CALLER: I am right there with you. Let me tell you, that’s why I had to take a deep breath. I’ve been doing a lot of breathing and a lot of crying. That’s where I’m at with it. It’s just so much happening at once and yeah. I just have to breathe, because it truly is overwhelming and we’re all just – most of us, I should say, are just trying to do our best. But I completely understand what you’re saying about wanting to be, you know, at the front lines of the battle, because that’s where I want to be myself. In the city I’m in, there has been so many protests and I’ve wanted to be out there just fighting with everyone. But unfortunately, I had to be tested for COVID. So I’m currently doing my 14 days at home and not being able to go anywhere so I can’t go out in the streets and protest with everyone, which is really hard.

[00:05:46] CHRIS: That’s a bad butting of heads of the two global crises happening right now.

[00:05:53] CALLER: Exactly.

[00:05:54] CHRIS: Two global problems that will be studied in history books forever, tying your hands where you want to be out there protesting and for 14 days you can’t. But I will say and who knows, I might be wrong, but this finally feels like one where it might still be happening in 15 days. Which is…

[00:06:14] CALLER: Right.

[00:06:15] CHRIS: In its own way, that’s a thought that’s kind of uplifting of this. This one doesn’t feel like people are going to shut up anytime soon or feel like we’ve accomplished anything anytime soon. And that’s, that’s good, maybe? 

[00:06:26] CALLER: I for sure think it’s good. I think it’s time. I’m a woman of color in America. I have brothers of color, my father is of color. I’m a black woman walking around these streets. So this is something where we’ve been fighting for a long time for justice to stop the murder of people who – no one gets – no one should be murdered, just being pulled over for a ticket and then end up dead. You know, it’s just so many things have happened. You don’t need me to list, you know, what has occurred in our society. You know, everyone knows that at this point. If someone doesn’t, they’re just choosing to be ignorant. So it’s kind of like, you know, yes, we have to burn this whole thing down to build it back up then let’s do it. That’s kind of where I’m at with it because it’s, it’s so painful. From the very beginning, you know, as a black person in America, it’s painful from the beginning, you know? From the beginning you’re being taught about how you have to handle yourself when you’re out in the world. You know what I mean?

[00:07:44] CHRIS: Mhm, I do. And I’m going to say something right away. With this show, I’ve always put my personality out there and I think people get a sense of my politics. But I’ve also always kind of felt like I want it to be about the other person. So if people say stuff that, I always try to be respectful and try to get my points on record without emotion necessarily, so that they feel – the gloves are coming off on this one.

[00:08:14] CALLER: Ok.

[00:08:14] CHRIS: I’m not hiding my politics on this one. And if anybody wants to unsubscribe, you can do it. If you think I’m going to be too liberal or progressive or whatever the problem is, I’m not holding back on this one like I usually do. So I’m right there with you. And I can’t imagine. I can’t imagine. It’s… 

[00:08:34] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:08:35] CHRIS: Here’s my first question, because I was just about to say, I can’t imagine being a person of color in America right now in light of all the protests. But I have to wonder how it feels right now, because the truth of the matter is, I can’t imagine being a person of color in America, period. And I wonder if right now, if – is it making you feel uplifted what’s happening or is it further churning up all the bad shit that this country puts you through?

[00:09:10] CALLER: Both. Both. You know, I truly am so grateful to everyone coming together, I feel that’s the beauty and what’s happening right now is that people are truly coming together around the world even, you know? In saying this absolutely has to stop. Coming together and fighting in all the ways that they can. For those that are protesting on the street, those that show up to the protesters with food and water and, you know, those that are at home listening to the police radios so they can help those that are out in the street, those signing petitions, those donating money. I mean, it seems like so many people are doing whatever little part that they can do. And it’s so beautiful and I’m so grateful and it makes me want to cry. And then there is the other side where it’s like fuck, we’re still doing this?

[00:10:13] CHRIS: Yeah. 

[00:10:13] CALLER: It’s like, are you kidding me? We’re still doing this? And it’s a nightmare, it’s a nightmare, and I think back on my life and I think about how, you know, I haven’t been in a situation where I’ve had to deal with the police and the racism that comes along with that sometimes, and I’m so grateful. For me, it’s in the workplace, it’s when you go for that first interview. But I know that it’s always a possibility for things to go left because of the color of my skin. You know? It’s when people say things to you in the workplace like, hey, wow, your facial expression right now, you know, it’s stuff like that, that you’re always dealing with all the time. And then I have brothers. And, you know, when my brother went away to college, he was 17 years old. And I said to him, You are a black man. Do not forget that. You will not get away with what your friends might be able to get away with, and that’s the reality. So it’s all so heartbreaking at the same time, because those that are murdered, those are my brothers and sisters. They’re all of our brothers and sisters. And that’s what I want people to recognize, is that we’re all a part of it. It’s just not something. Gosh I hope that makes sense.

[00:11:48] CHRIS: Oh, it absolutely does. The logic of it, the emotion of it. And I’ll say this and one of the things I want to say in the first 10 minutes, I want to listen a lot more than I talk this week. I do think as a white person and as a white male, it is one of the more important things we can do is shut up and listen. But because you mentioned college years and because you mentioned specifically you’re not going to get away with stuff, it’s actually extraordinarily applicable to my life, because I will tell you, when I was in college, it was at the height of when I was manic and out of control mentally. And I was once driving in New Jersey – and New Jersey state cops – not the best reputation with race relations, you can look it up. I was driving on Route 287 south and I had a bunch of points on my license because I drove like a maniac back then. I knew if I got any more points, I was going to lose my license and I was flying down Route 287 and I saw the headlights come on in the media and I said, that’s a cop. I’m going about 85 miles an hour. He pulls out on the road. He doesn’t put his lights on. And I, I go, I’ve got to get out of here before he does. So I floret, I start going faster. I get off the highway. I try to hide, I parked my car in some random, sleepy neighborhood, then I kind of come to my senses and go, someone’s going to call 911 seeing someone lurking in a car, I go to head back to the highway. He’s waiting there. He pulls me over. And he says he looks at my license, he goes, where are you going? An I go I’m driving a Rucker’s. He goes, and I have to imagine the only way you behaved like that was to evade arrest from me or evade me. I said that’s true, I’m not going to lie about it, and he asked for my registration. I didn’t even have my registration and he let me go with a warning. Now, the same year I was pulled over again in New Jersey, different highway, one of the ones in South Jersey, I don’t remember which one. And the cop walked up and he was actually being more relaxed. And then he saw that my friend in the passenger seat was one of my roommates who was black and who had dreads at the time. And the tone immediately went from him being laid back to both of us having flashlights in our eyes and the volume being louder. And I saw it there, that was within the same year. And I knew I was like, that’s fucked up. I was so glad I was telling everybody I got away with it like it’s such a funny story. 

[00:14:44] CALLER: Yeah…

[00:14:44] CHRIS: We weren’t even speeding as much and my friends with me – it’s hard to not feel like it’s directly correlated to who’s sitting next to me that that tone changed. So I saw myself right there in a small way and I’m not saying, oh, I understand it, but I am saying I did have that moment where I went, holy shit, this is real. I’ll never deny that this is real. I’ll never say anybody’s exaggerating or being dramatic or histrionic. This is real.

[00:15:12] CALLER: And that’s what’s important is acknowledging it, recognizing it. You know, to me, that means so much that you just acknowledge that that’s the reality of what’s happening.

[00:15:30] CHRIS: Well, it’s – if you don’t at this point in history, you’re just being willfully ignorant, you’re just being obtuse. And because here’s the, here’s the thing that I don’t get. How many white people out there, and I’m one of these people I’ve often said my favorite book is To Kill a Mockingbird. How many white people read that in high school and go, that’s my favorite book ever. And what’s that book about? I mean, first of all, we can now see in the modern times, it has the whole white savior thing, which is problematic.

[00:16:00] CALLER: Right. 

[00:16:01] CHRIS: I’ll admit it does have that. But at its core, it’s a story about a black guy falsely accused of rape who gets shot when he’s imprisoned. Unjustly imprisoned and everyone in the town knew, and we all loved that book, and it was published in 1960, so why are we pretending this is a problem that’s, that we didn’t know about or that’s just springing up today?

[00:16:25] CALLER: Right.

[00:16:27] CHRIS: It makes no sense to pretend it’s not real. We’ve all known it’s been real for hundreds of years.

[00:16:32] CALLER: Right. And at this point also, if you don’t feel like it’s real, let’s say you don’t. Let’s say you don’t even get it. But at this point – look, we have the Internet. You can find out anything. So if it’s not real to you and you don’t think it’s real, but people are marching in the streets by the thousands, it’s time to figure out what’s going on. If you don’t think it’s real, you might want to look something up and figure out, well, what’s everybody so upset about? Instead of just trying to pretend or live in your bubble that you’ve created for yourself or your family has created for you and move forward, it’s time. You know, a lot of people are raised a certain way. There’s nothing you can do about that. But we all become adults and we can all change things. So I don’t necessarily agree with everything that my parents taught me. At some point I questioned a lot of it. So, you know, there’s no, there’s really no excuse at this time to not move forward with the movement. You’re literally with us or against us, and that’s it, period. That’s really where it’s at.

[00:17:43] CHRIS: I have rallied hard against the divisiveness in this country. I have said many times that I get to, I’m lucky in my job, I get to travel so much and actually see and I meet so many people everywhere. I feel like it’s engineered by Facebook and by click baity titles. But now it’s official. Now it’s official. There’s an artist, Bob Mold, who used to be in a punk band called Husker Du. He just put out a song a couple of days ago and one of the lines he says, he goes, you’re, you’re either one of us or you’re one of them. And if you’re one of them, don’t come near me again. And it’s never been more true.

[00:18:23] CALLER: Absolutely! 

[00:18:26] CHRIS: It’s dumb. And like, he’s all lives matter people? Yeah..

[00:18:30] CALLER: I really can’t with them. I literally can’t – I can’t do it, I can’t do it. I don’t understand what they don’t understand. If it’s all lives matter, then that means black lives matter, baby. So you don’t have to say all lives because we know that your life has mattered. That’s not the argument currently happening. And people will try to sum up any excuse that they can to take away from this. No, we’re not talking about that right now. We’re just not talking about that right now. So it’s like stop with your own lives. If it’s really about all life, pick up your black lives sign and get in the street. It’s really that simple, right? But it is pretty infuriating. It’s like you guys weren’t screaming all lives before black lives. You weren’t screaming blue lives before black lives. So what that tells me is that you heard us saying black lives are important. And you were like, well, hold on. No, no, no, no, no. We want to be louder. We want, we want it for us. We can’t have anything? Nothing? Like come on, guys, 

[00:19:40] CHRIS: If you’re holding up a sign that says all lives matter. Here’s a newsflash for you. We all know that what you want to be holding up is a sign that says, shut the fuck up and stay in your lane.

[00:19:51] CALLER: And you better say it again and say it louder for the people in the back, because that is absolutely correct.

[00:19:59] CHRIS: It’s so, it’s just dumb because it’s like, of course. Anybody who’s saying black lives matter, like it could just be all lives matter, but we have historically acted like black lives don’t matter. So let’s everybody step up and include black lives under the umbrella of all lives matter. But guess what? That’s not a good hashtag, you dickheads. So… 

[00:20:25] CALLER: Right. 

[00:20:25] CHRIS: We all know what you really mean. You know what we really mean. Stop pretending that it’s, you’re not trying to fight this contest, this contest you’re waging between catchphrases. It’s a false equivalency. And you know it, we all see right through it – and! Hurgh… Here’s one thing I think about a lot, because I know I’m an artist now, I’m an artist from New York City and I’ve had some success. I’m not denying that. But I grew up in a working class family. My grandfather was an Irish immigrant who stacked shelves in a supermarket. I live next door to a fireman. A guy on my block was a plumber, the white working class and African-Americans have so much more in common than the white working class and the ruling class and the idea that I promise you, I would I would pay money that to bet that someone somewhere paid an advertising agency to come up with the catchphrases as a response to Black Lives Matter that trigger the most anger among the working class. And let’s focus group and then figure out which one gets people most riled up and they settled on all lives matter. I’d be shocked if someone didn’t go ahead and formulate that purposely. This is for fucking years. Know your history. In the beginning of this country, there were slave rebellions where there were white indentured servants who who who were part of the rebellions. And then at some point, just like the English always did you look it up anywhere, the English ever colonized. There’s classes of people where one class of people kicks down at another class of people, and neither has it as good as the colonizers. And in Ireland where my family came from, it was the Catholics and the Protestants. I went to Sri Lanka – the Tamil people are the ones getting kicked out. And in this country they convinced the white working class, hey, there’s got to be someone lower on the ladder than you, so kick down and make sure they stay there. And it’s deceptive and it’s to fucking keep us all against each other when in reality, a lot of the problems both communities face are shared. All lives matter. Morons, read a fucking – read one magazine article. Sorry, I should be fucking morons, but like I said, the gloves are coming off today. That’s the type of thing I usually bite my tongue on on this show. No, you fucking morons read an article.

[00:22:59] CALLER: Yeah, there’s no way. And at this point everybody has some sort of social media. They’re on something. So I know that the education is out there for everybody. So you just choose to bypass it. And, you know, that’s what’s happening. You know, I’m thinking about, I was reading something about, you know, a lot of the TikTok. I’m not on there, so I don’t really get it.

[00:23:23] CHRIS: Me neither. I’m forty, forty. Tick tock. What? Anyway, I interrupted go. I have to listen. The joke was there. Go, go, go, go.

[00:23:32] CALLER: And I was just reading about how a lot of these kids are like devastated because they’re having to argue with their parents about this all lives versus black lives and they’re saying, no mom, no dad. And these are like young kids. They’re just going through the trauma of the world and trying to explain to their parents, like, no, we have to hop on this boat and help these people. Like, you know, we have to all be one and take care of each other. And their parents are like, no, you don’t understand. And these kids are breaking down and crying because, you know, they are way more enlightened. And that’s the real truth. The children now are so enlightened to what really matters, which is love and care and kindness and taking care of our earth and each other, you know, and they’re really struggling, having these conversations with their own parents who have raised them in the ways that, you know, I was speaking about earlier. So it’s just so much happening right now. And I could just feel the energy of all of it. You know, I’m sure you probably can too, the energy, everything that’s going on. And like I’m saying, sometimes I just start crying. You just see something and you just start bawling.

[00:24:47] CHRIS: Yeah. And you’re right, I’ll tell you what, I don’t like putting money in Mark Zuckerbergs pocket, especially right now, I think he profits off this stuff. But Instagram in particular, you watch Instagram live. I see my friends in New York City following the protests. It’s peaceful. I have a friend, this guy, one of my jujitsu instructors. He keeps going out at night and he’s going, look, here’s the peaceful protests. Here’s what time it is. Here’s where the cops all assemble together. And now, look, I’ll point the camera the other way and you can see two blocks back, those are the looters because they now know the cops are all over here and there’s no cops down. He’s like, it’s simple, it’s simple. And you watch it on Instagram, I’m like, this is real time, no spin. And then you see the shit. 

[00:25:37] CALLER: Right. 

[00:25:38] CHRIS: You just see a video of a 75 year old man asking a cop a question and the cop throws them on the ground, his head bounced up and I was bleeding.

[00:25:47] CALLER: I was just going to bring that up.

[00:25:49] CHRIS: You see it!

[00:25:50] CALLER: I was just going to bring that up. And they were, they were ready to spin that within minutes. Oh, he tripped. And it’s like, what is wrong with you all? Like, what is this aggression about? Why are you guys so angry? You know what I mean? Like why are you so angry? Why did you push that man? What’s wrong with you? And this is something, like I just don’t understand. I don’t know. Do people go into the police force because they’re angry and they want to beat on people or do they become that once they’re in? Or is it a combination? I really would like, I really wish there was a study so we can understand further what is going on, because what on God’s green heavily earth would make you push that man? I literally could not even believe it. I couldn’t believe it. 

[00:26:39] CHRIS: Yeah, did you see the one – 

[00:26:42] CALLER: It’s absolutely disgusting.

[00:26:43] CHRIS: You see, the one with the kid giving a speech at the front line, kneeling still. Facing down these cops who are dressed like it’s war and he said, I don’t hate you, I love you, I want to know the best of you, I do not hate you. 

[00:26:59] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:27:00] CHRIS: And then what do they do? They walk up, they drag them behind a line of riot gear where it’s like how – if you don’t see it at this point, you’re choosing not to see it. End of story.

[00:27:12] CALLER: Exactly. Exactly. That’s exactly it. So I just, you know, I just pray for us and I really pray that there is a change. I pray I try to do the little bit that I can do and just pray that there’s a change because there’s got to be.

[00:27:32] [AD BREAK]

[00:28:10] CHRIS: I’m with you. Now, I think we’ve established that you and I are angry about the same things, today.

[00:28:21] CALLER: For sure. (laughs)

[00:28:24] CHRIS: I think we’ve (laughs) I think we’ve established which side of the line we fall on. And I just want to say too, like you said, are there cops signing up because they have so much rage? I don’t, I will say, I don’t think all cops are bad. I have to imagine they’re not all bad. I will say that there’s two kids from my neighborhood, who grew up to be cops and one of them used to throw firecrackers at me. And I once saw the other make fun of a kid who was in a motorized wheelchair. So that’s who they were growing up. They are the two people, they’re the two people I know who became cops. So they clearly had some rage, maybe some mental problems. 

[00:29:04] CALLER: Yeah. And I want to say all cops aren’t bad. I want to say that, but I’m not going to. And I’ll tell you why I won’t. The reason why I won’t is because. I haven’t seen the cases where an officer steps in to stop the brutality.

[00:29:21] CHRIS: Yeah. 

[00:29:22] CALLER: So where are the good ones? I would love to know where they’re at. I would love to be able to say there are good ones, but I don’t know where they’re at. And I’m sure there’ll be comments about this, about me saying that, you know, well, my dad and my uncle and my son. OK, that’s great. We’d love to see them. We’d love to see them, whoever they are, we’d love to see them.

[00:29:51] CHRIS: Yeah, and I do think at this point. Because and to be fair, I’m Facebook friends with someone who’s a cop, and he posted immediately. The day, the day this news hit about George Floyd, he said no one hates a bad cop more than a good cop. And I have to believe that’s true. But I do think you’re right that it is time for the good cops to get more vocal and get more visible. And you’re also reading these stories about how there’s these you know, you see these pieces where, these videos, where cops will kneel with the protesters, but then you’ll see people who are there, say two hours later they gassed me and beat the shit out of me. 

[00:30:37] CALLER: Right. 

[00:30:38] CHRIS: And you almost have to –

[00:30:39] CALLER: Right. 

[00:30:39] CHRIS: I almost feel like I need to start seeing videos of cops breaking ranks with those, with those battalions, because that’s what they are and walking away from their friends and staying on the other side of the line, not the photo ops, I got to see somebody –

[00:30:56] CALLER: Right. 

[00:30:57] CHRIS: – put down their baton. I got to see somebody take off that scary mask and walk away from it –

[00:31:02] CALLER: Right. 

[00:30:02] CHRIS: – and risk their job. Where’s that footage? I would love to see that right.

[00:31:08] CALLER: Right. And I see that we have a bunch of masks for these officers, but we had doctors and nurses who couldn’t get a mask. It’s really crazy. This country is really out of control and has a lot of things backwards. You know, it’s like, wait, what? 

[00:31:24] CHRIS: Yeah. 

[00:31:25] CALLER: It’s insane. And then all of this is happening during the pandemic. It’s just all so crazy and so much.

[00:31:35] CHRIS: Yeah, I’m with you now, I want to say. Let me put this out here, I’m happy we have 32 minutes left. This one’s flying by. I am happy for us to both just mutually commiserate and vent anger. 

[00:31:54] CALLER: Yeah. (laughs)  

[00:31:55] CHRIS: But I also want to know, I also feel like in the spirit of of what this whole project is about, I would love to know more about who you are. And I have a feeling those things might tie together anyway. So I do want to put that out there.

[00:32:10] CALLER: Well, who am I? I’m a black woman, early 40s, out here, you know angry, but at the same time staying completely grateful and thankful for all the things I do have, I try to stay in gratitude every day, Chris. I try to remind myself of that. I’m someone who’s working. I have to shift to teleworking, which has been very interesting during this time due to Covid dealing with that, dealing with dating and trying to find love. I mean, I’ve actually been through so much. My mom died when I was very young. I was only seven years old and having to go through life and maneuver without a mother. And I mean, I don’t even know where to start. There’s just so much. But I’m also so thankful.

[00:33:16] CHRIS: First of all, I want to say I’m really sorry to hear about your mom, that’s quite sad.

[00:33:21] CALLER: Thank you. Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, it was. I was seven years old and we were on a family trip and it was actually my mom’s dream trip that she wanted to go on, and so we went on this trip for her birthday and it was on her birthday and she, we literally just had an accident. It was just a small accident. We went to go catch a train back to where we were staying. And she was holding my hand and my dad was holding my little brother who was sleeping. And then my dad’s aunt was with us. And so we went to go catch the train to get back to wherever we were going. And we had just been out having a good day with my mom’s birthday. We went shopping and went to the zoo and all this stuff. And so we got on the train and my dad didn’t get on fast enough. My dad and my brother and my aunt didn’t get on fast enough. And so my mom just said, hey, you know, let’s just get off. It’s going really slow. We’re just going to climb up. We’re just going to take the steps off. And when we did that, we fell. And she hit her head. And that was it, she hit her head, I had a scraped knee and… Yeah, so. She was on life support, and four days later they had to take her off. And so it was, I mean, that’s pretty traumatic, you know?

[00:35:05] CHRIS: You said it was on her birthday?

[00:35:09] CALLER: Yeah, the accident happened on her birthday, yeah.

[00:35:11] CHRIS: During her dream trip. 

[00:35:14] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:35:15] CHRIS: And you fell alongside her.

[00:35:18] CALLER: Yeah.

[00:35:20] CHRIS: That’s one of the, I mean, this is not news to you. I know this is a blunt reaction. That’s one of the, that’s one of the saddest stories I’ve ever heard.

[00:35:33] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:35:34] CHRIS: And I, and I host this show. I’ve heard a lot of sad stories, I’m so sorry.

[00:35:39] CALLER: I truly appreciate that. It’s been a lot of years of… Ooh, yeah, sorry. I just had to. Just kind of take some deep breaths, but it was very, very hard, after, I mean, it’s still hard to be honest with you. I’ve done a lot of work around it. And someone told me recently you have survivor’s guilt. And I never thought about that. Like, I never thought about my situation in that way. But I know that for many years I was just like, I don’t want to live. Like, I ended up having a really hard childhood after that and felt very, very alone in life for so many years. And and when I say alone, I mean, regarding parents, but I’ve always had such great friends and truly my friends are my family and they have helped carry me along through so much. But I had to pretty much teach myself everything or learn it by my friends or by watching them. But like no one ever taught me what a credit card was or how to use it or balance a checkbook or, you know, those things that you get taught. And I just didn’t get that information. So it was really hard. And, you know, I always thought to myself, like, why am I alive? For what? Why am I alive? Like my mom, she had a family. She had kids to raise, she had a husband. And it’s, and I always thought, like, no, I should have died. I should have died and she should have lived, but it didn’t work out that way, and I always felt that I had to live for my brother, my baby brother, because I just had to watch out for him, you know? And so that’s kind of like, yeah, that’s a huge part of my story. Sorry, I didn’t mean to be like a Debbie Downer…

[00:37:53] CHRIS: First of all, you do not need to apologize. Second of all, I mean, you don’t have to, don’t apologize, and to use the phrase Debbie Downer – A in relation to that story, and B, we spent like a solid 30 minutes ranting about maybe the downfall of America and the endless murder inflicted upon the African-American community. And you then told a story where you said, sorry, I don’t want to bring the mood down. That’s, that’s an intense story. That’s an intense story. I’m sorry to find a macabre laugh in there, but that’s that’s if you’re saying I don’t want to be a Debbie Downer in the middle of this conversation we’ve been having. Wow.

[00:38:45] CALLER: (laughs) Well, I just know that there’s so many people that have had it worse, you know? And so I just I don’t want to, I just, I know my situation. And you know what? This is a problem that I have too because, you know, through therapy, you learn like just because you didn’t have the worst story doesn’t mean yours is that. Just because you didn’t go through the worst thing that there is to go through doesn’t mean you went through, you didn’t go through something difficult. And so I try to remember that. But at the same time, I hold those in my heart that have had it even harder than me, you know, because I somehow have made it to the point that I’m at, you know, I have a good job and I have great friends and. I’m still looking for love, I’ve had love, though, I’ve had love, but I’m still looking for that one, you know, I mean, so I’ve had a pretty good life overall, but, yeah, there’s really been some shit along the way, I tell you.

[00:39:48] CHRIS: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I mean, that’s. That’s uh… That’s like a… I don’t, I’m, I’m kind of speechless. I’m kind of speechless.

[00:40:09] CALLER: So to any women out there that may be a step mom to some children, be kind to them, especially ones that lost their mother. I’d like to just say that, like, if you take some children under your wing, especially ones that have had serious trauma, be kind to them, please. Because you can do a lot of damage or you can do a lot of healing. And it’s kind of up to you, which when you decide to, you know, be and do. So I like to get that message out there.

[00:40:52] CHRIS: How old were you when your stepmom came into your life?

[00:40:56] CALLER: 12. 

[00:40:57] CHRIS: 12.

[00:40:59] CALLER: Mhm. Yeah. And it really just wasn’t the best situation (laughs)

[00:41:06] CHRIS: So I was able to connect the dots…

[00:41:09] CALLER: (laughs)

[00:41:10] CHRIS: Based on what you said…

[00:41:12] CALLER: (laughs)

[00:41:13] CHRIS: Were you in any sort of like counseling or therapy? Did anybody…

[00:41:20] CALLER: Never, never. I come from a family, my family, they’re from another country. They came to America to build a better life. And honestly, now that I look back, I can understand that that really was in focus. Survival was the focus. And my mother’s death is one that my entire family took very, very hard. I mean, even now when I see certain family members, they look at me and they just start crying because they think about my mother. But I look back now on my family and it wasn’t one where they even knew about therapy or understood it. This is not an excuse because I definitely should have had it. But as you get older, you start to obtain understanding and different things. And this is one of the things I have gained a little bit of understanding on is that they didn’t even get it. You know, they didn’t know that maybe we need to take these children to speak to someone. Like maybe we need to allow them to express themselves. It wasn’t that kind of family like no one ever said how are you feeling? No one ever said that. And then I went to this court that, you know, my core family, which is the one that I was raised with for the first few years and then went into the other family, which they were still very loving, even though they didn’t have the tools. Then I go into this other family that did not seem – no, not I shouldn’t say seem – that wasn’t loving. And it was actually just another trauma to me as a child that I’ve had to work through for many, many, many years.

[00:43:09] CHRIS: And this other family, is this your step mom and did she have her own kids?

[00:43:14] CALLER: Mhm, yes, and she had her own kids and it was very evident that we were treated differently, you know, and it was just such a different way of life that I was used to that it was just, it really flipped upside down. And I’m 12 at the time. So, you know, at 12, you’re already dealing with so much. I’m a 12 year old whose mom is dead. And now I’m just tossed into this family where everything is completely different and it doesn’t feel like there’s any love or kindness. And so it was really, really hard. It was hard.

[00:43:54] [AD BREAK]

[00:44:34] CHRIS: Have you, have you tried therapy once you became an adult and had had the agency to –

[00:44:44] CALLER: Oh, yes.

[00:44:45] CHRIS: Good. That’s good. 

[00:44:49] CALLER: Now, I do it all, now that I’m, you know, I’ve educated myself and, you know, I will try any kind of therapy. I’ll do energy work. I will go talk to a therapist. I will do whatever it is that I think may help me. I’ll do it. You know, if it’s lighting a candle, some incense surrounding myself with my crystals, meditating, going to get Reiki going and sit in talking to a counselor, getting massages to work out negative energy out of your body. At this point in my life, if I feel that it’ll work for me, I’ll go and do it, because I do want to live. I want to be a piece of myself, you know? And I’ve always tried to be kind. I’ve always been kind and loving to people. And I want to be as kind and loving to myself if I’ve been to others. And so this has actually been like my great work for the past two or three years is learning to not turn on myself because for so many years I would turn on me. And then it’s like, hey, why are you talking to yourself like this? You would never talk to a stranger in this way. So why are you doing it to yourself? So this has been actually work that I have been putting in for the past few years, and I’m actually pretty proud of myself about it, to be honest. (laughs)

[00:46:14] CHRIS: It sounds like you should be. I’m, I am amazed, considering, considering the story that you have, that you’re here talking to me right now, and I notice right at the top of the call, you’re like, I’m taking some deep breaths and I’m now realizing that wasn’t just that wasn’t the first time you’ve done that. This is someone who’s been trained in meditative, deep breathing techniques, clearly.

[00:46:41] CALLER: Yeah. And I’m not even that good at it. But I try. (both laugh) I feel like I have a little bit of a bunch of different things. I’m just like, I’m not fully versed in anything. I just have a little bit of everything and it gets me through. So I’m just like, woop woop, OK, we’re moving forward. Let’s get this truck rolling. (laughs)

[00:47:07] CHRIS: The fact that we are somehow laughing in the midst of the two conversations we’ve had thus far, I have to thank you. I have to thank you know, really, because the world has seemed so awful the past week. And I just got to say, I wanted to thank you for a weird reason, I want to thank you because I almost – it’s like, I felt so awful and so in my head and my wife’s been saying to me this week, like, where are you? I don’t feel like I can connect with you and I just feel awful. And then, like, the world feels worthless. And then you and I are here talking about it and both on the macro level of society right now and then you’re telling me on the micro level your personal story, that makes me feel like the world is so awful sometimes. But then the fact that you and I are still finding a laugh, I got to thank you for it because you’re reminding me that there is resiliency and there is hope, and if you’re sitting here laughing after everything you’ve been through and everything you’re going through now, it gives me hope, gives me hope.

[00:48:23] CALLER: Thank you so much for saying that. That means so much to me. And I really appreciate that. Yeah, we have to have it and we have to, you know, every day I, I live alone, so I’ve been really isolated and wooh, it got hard there for a minute. But gosh, every day I’m like, I am so thankful for face time, you know, and it’s so small. But I stay connected with everyone through FaceTime. And so like I just remember the little things that I’m thankful for every day. So I kind of just move my focus to that. Believe me, I deal with the negative stuff. I deal with the hard stuff. I cry it out and then I end by, like, lighting my Himalayan salt lamp at the end of the day. And just like talking to one friend or another or some guy I met off the dating app and laughing and, you know, and I kind of just like, laugh it out a little bit and, you know, try to like remember some things that I’m grateful for. So that’s what I try to end the day with, is just remembering a few things. Just like even thankful for that running water so I could shower. You know, it doesn’t have to be big. It could be anything, you know? Thankful that I was able to order my grocery curbside, woop woop! And you just like, you know, have a little dance party with yourself.

[00:49:55] CHRIS: You’re you’re an incredibly inspiring person.

[00:50:02] CALLER: Oh, my gosh. Thank you. You’ll make me cry…

[00:50:05] CHRIS: Now, I got to ask something. I got to ask something. You’ve mentioned a few times you’re on the dating app. You said you have had love in your life. You’re looking for it again. 

[00:50:14] CALLER: Yeah.

[00:50:15] CHRIS: Now, I do have to ask, like and I hate to, but again, you and I have managed to find some laughs and I’m not making fun, I’m genuinely curious. When you bring a guy home and he sees, like Himalayan salt crystals, all this stuff, and then he goes, can I ask what – how you became interested in all this stuff, and do you then have to turn around and go, well, would you like to hear the most tragic origin story you’ve ever heard?

[00:50:49] CALLER: (laughs)

[00:50:50] CHRIS: Is that – are we ready for that this early into a relationship? Is that a thing that has happened?

[00:50:56] CALLER: I don’t hit them with it so hard, I don’t hit them with it so hard in the beginning. (laughs) I give them a little time… (laughs) But if they ask directly, I’ll be like, well, so this is what happened. If they’re like, well, where are your parents? That then I have to, you know, I’m always going to be honest. So I’m like, well, this is what happened. But yeah, when people come in here and they’re like, what are these crystals and stuff? And I’m like, OK, so what happened was, (laughs) I was just like, I was fighting for my life, then I was looking for anything to help me. I pull out my little crystal Bible. And I’m like, this one is for this, this one is for this. I do have to pull out my little crystal Bible because I don’t remember them all myself. But it is pretty interesting, which is funny you mention that because my ex, he, when he first came over, he was like, what is going on in here? You know, but it’s a very, zen in here at the same time. So it’s like, well, it feels good, you know? And at first he just thought it was pretty wonky. But I can tell you that by the end of our relationship, he was walking around with his crystal bracelet on and his Himalayan salt lamp. So there’s that. (laughs)

[00:52:10] CHRIS: Nice. 

[00:52:11] CALLER: I’m basically a convertor. (laughs)

[00:52:15] CHRIS: I love it.

[00:52:19] CALLER: Yeah.

[00:52:20] CHRIS: I love it. Well, let me can I, OK. I want to maybe go back to some of the societal stuff, just because we are in that moment and because I do feel like you and I are connecting, I don’t know, I don’t want to speak for you, but I’m like, oh, this is, for such a heavy conversation. I do feel very connected to you.

[00:52:53] CALLER: I do as well. I feel connected to you as well.

[00:52:55] CHRIS: That’s good, so I don’t I don’t want to put you in a position where you’re the spokesperson for everybody. I don’t want to represent all white guys. I do wonder, I know that I can go to protests, I know that I can donate money, I know that I can step in forcefully when I see people expressing things I disagree with, whereas maybe in the past I would have just said, this person’s an idiot, let me block them or whatever. I understand those things. On a human level, what can what can someone like me be doing right now to show solidarity for someone in your position?

[00:53:42] CALLER: I think you’re pretty much covered it. The one thing I would add is ask questions, so if someone doesn’t understand, for example, why are they looting? Where some people are trying to flip this on its head and make it about the looting, maybe ask a question about that instead of assuming or placing judgment on it. I think asking questions is really important, but all the things you’ve covered are extremely important. Just being that ally and standing up is the most important, stepping in, stepping in front of, you know, but asking questions. I don’t know if this will answer your question exactly or, but one of the women that I work with, she’s a white woman and she called me and she was just like, oh, it’s so much going on. I just hate the looting. And that was the first thing she said. And I told her, I said, you know, I really don’t want to discuss the looting if you don’t want to discuss the murders. You know, because that’s kind of the focus right now. So looting, yeah, it’s bad. We don’t want to take businesses down. But at the same time, that’s not my focus. My focus is on murder. And so she was like, OK. And then, you know, we just had a quick little talk about, you know, how hard it is. And then in that conversation – so actually not in that conversation. But she called me back later and she said to me that she appreciated our conversation. She said to me that after her and I talked she went and read a little bit more about everything. And then she said she thought about her own family and the privilege they had. And she told me how her brother had gotten in some little trouble when he was in high school. And she thought about the fact that he just had to pay a fine. And then she realized that if he would have been black, he would probably have had to have done life or something crazy like that. And so her just calling back with that acknowledgment was so much to me and did have me in tears that she actually listened to what I had to say, even though she didn’t agree with me at first, she listened to me and then she went and sat back. She went and read, and then she came back and she was saying, Wow. I really thought about it, wow. And to me, that was so powerful. Do you feel the same way about that?

[00:56:30] CHRIS: I do, I do. Yeah, because it’s also a reminder of – you know, for generations and generations, there’s been this, you know, a segment of society that says we need overall societal change, what’s powerful about that story is. Maybe the way that,  maybe the only way we can do it now is one person at a time. Which is what you did in that story. 

[00:57:06] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:57:06] CHRIS: And maybe that, maybe that’s how we have to do it, we have to hold every single person’s hand and get them there as best as possible. Yeah, because it’s not just going to happen that it’s not going to happen from and I did this, I participated, but I put in a black square on Instagram. It does something, but we did that on Tuesday, and by Tuesday night, people were saying, please don’t tag Black Lives matter, you’re erasing information, right? And by Wednesday, we had all largely forgotten about those black squares. So actually speaking to a human being, getting through.

[00:57:46] CALLER: We can do it, we can do it as a people, we can do it. Yeah. Whoof.

[00:57:59] CHRIS: I wonder at what point this country would become willing to just be Americans. You know what I mean by that, not like –

[00:58:09] CALLER:  Yeah. And I don’t know, but I can tell you it probably won’t happen during this presidency, that’s for sure.

[00:58:20] CHRIS: Urgh, This guy, this guy. 

[00:58:24] CALLER: I know how you feel about him. (both laugh)

[00:58:28] CHRIS: If we want to say a couple things about him, this – this guy. He says so much ludicrous stuff. Here’s one that I thought deserved more – it should have spread out more, couple months back they were talking about the Covid stuff. And he’s talking about some of the doctors brought up these models on how it might unfold and this and that. And I don’t really you know, he goes I don’t really mess with models, not that kind of model. Not that kind – I mess with other kinds of models. He’s basically making a joke about how he fucks models. The guy who grabs them by the pussy is making jokes. And then this guy’s going  to hold up a Bible?! He’s going to hold up the Bible?! 

[00:59:16] CALLER: A Bible, a Bible, for Pete’s sake. I literally – it feels like we’re living in some sort of, like we’re being recorded and someone’s watching this for pure entertainment because he’s absolutely – I, I just don’t even know. I don’t know. I urgh, I just can’t. I can’t with him.

[00:59:41] CHRIS: Also, I’m going to go ahead and say my focus right now and my heart, the reason my heart is bleeding is because of, first of all, I watched the videos. 

[00:59:56] CALLER: Mhm. 

[00:59:59] CHRIS: George Floyd, that white lady threatening to use the cops in Central Park like they are weapons she’s allowed to use.

[01:00:08] CALLER: Mhm. 

[01:00:10] CHRIS: A guy jogging, a guy who’s jogging and also, all these people who say, well, there’s video of him going into a construction site, was he stealing stuff? I don’t care. If you’re going to steal some tools here. You steal a couple of power tools. It doesn’t mean that people get to chase you and hit you with a truck and, and yell racist stuff at you and then shoot you three times, I don’t care, you’re not the judge, jury and executioner. There’s a guy, oh a guy I might have stolen a drill. So that means you get to chase him in a truck and die? No, no. But and but I’ll tell you.

[01:00:46] CALLER: And I – it’s just – 

[01:00:48] CHRIS: Please, no speak. I want to listen. I want.

[01:00:51] CALLER: No, no, no, no, no, no. Go ahead. I want to hear what you have to say. 

[01:00:54] CHRIS: No! I must listen, i must be!

[01:00:56] CALLER: No please say it! All I was going to say is like this is how much they do not value us. That’s how much they don’t value us is to think this person should die over a drill. Like, how did, how did the two even go together? One has nothing to do with the other, but that’s how much you don’t value him as a human being, is to murder him over what you thought was a was a stolen drill. Thought not even confirmed. You just thought that that might be possible, which I don’t believe that’s true anyway. But let’s just say that it is. So you see no value in that life whatsoever.

[01:01:43] CHRIS: And – 

[01:01:44] CALLER: How is that possible? 

[01:01:45] CHRIS: Absolutely unfathomable that it even would be a debate, because we all know if I wandered into somebody’s garage on video and then I even if I did take something, nobody would chase me down with a shotgun, it wouldn’t happen!

[01:02:06] CALLER: It wouldn’t happen, and I appreciate you acknowledging that and I appreciate you saying it to everyone that listens, because I know that you have a very large audience and it’s the truth. So we have to stop pretending that it’s not. That’s the reality. And that’s just what it is. 

[01:02:26] CHRIS: And scrambling to find these justifications is just so gross, and this is a word that almost doesn’t even make sense because it’s such a small word, but it just feels so tacky, just feel so tacky –

[01:02:40] CALLER: Mhm.

[01:02:40] CHRIS: – and so petty. The only reason I can imagine that someone should have a right to shoot someone with a gun is if the person they’re shooting has been shooting people with guns, and even then I am of the philosophy of I’ll call 911 and run away unless someone really needs to be a hero to stop this. 

[01:03:07] CALLER: Right. 

[01:03:08] CHRIS: It’s other people’s jobs. But then even the people whose jobs it is. It loops back around to just fucking… and OK, I’m going to say something else, and this is totally up to you. We have one minute and 20 seconds left, but I’m stopping the clock because we’re stopping this conversation when you tell me I feel like I’ve gotten everything off my chest, so I don’t care if that’s in one minute. I don’t care if it’s another hour. I don’t care. 

[01:03:36] CALLER: You’re so kind. 

[01:03:39] CHRIS: Whatever you want it to be. Me and you’ve both said some stuff.

[01:03:42] CALLER: I do feel like we’ve covered it. I mean, we’ve covered it. Be kind, love each other, protect each other. Listen, stand up, you know, do your part, do your part, whatever that is, whatever little small part that is, just do it.

[01:04:05] CHRIS: Would you be OK if I made two quick points, then? 

[01:04:08] CALLER: Of course!

[01:04:10] CHRIS: One – the guy was 46 years old, and one of the last words he said was Mama. That’s so fucked up. That’s so fucked up and I don’t care.

[01:04:27] CALLER: Yeah. 

[01:04:27] CHRIS: That, to me is like. If you really need – if whatever whatever fucked up way you’ve been raised, if you’ve been raised in the most racist household where a grown black man scares you for some reason. He said, Mama.

[01:04:50] CALLER: Yeah.

[01:04:51] CHRIS: That’s – I got a one year old and anybody who’s a parent who heard that, anybody who’s a parent who heard that. How you can hear that and not drop any fucking – any, I don’t care how steadfastly you want to buy into your own racism. If that moment can’t slice through it, and you are a parent, then you have evil living inside you. You just do.

[01:05:25] CALLER: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I for sure agree with you on that. 

[01:05:35] CHRIS: So fucked up.

[01:05:38] CALLER: It really is and, you know, I think about the person who was recording it and I think about the trauma they’re going to have to go through and all the things they are going to have to go through. And I think about I hope that she’s OK and I hope she’s safe because I know there’s been other instances where people have recorded or, you know, gotten things documented and on the news and, you know, they end up getting terrorized by the police and stuff. And so I pray for her in that she’s OK because, she’s a woman of color, too, and she already has to live in fear every day. And she’s 17 years old and having to witness that and record that. I just can’t even imagine and I just pray for her well-being and safety too.

[01:06:47] CHRIS: And if it’s OK with you, unless you have more to say on this, there’s another point I’d like to make. 

[01:06:54] CALLER: Yes, please.

[01:06:55] CHRIS: At one point, I was bringing up that we, we have like a bunch of other tangents that were very, very worthwhile. But I do want to say this. Mr. Trump, I don’t even want to call him President Trump because he chooses not to act like a president. This guy Trump – for years, we’ve regarded him as a buffoon, and it’s pretty clear to me at this point he’s not a buffoon, he’s an evil genius. We’ve got to start treating him as that. We’ve, he has for years decided to just see step by step what he can get away with. Can I say nice things about Kim Jong-Un? Can I buddy up to Putin? Can I obstruct justice? Can I hide my tax returns? Every single one of these. Can I get away with this? Oh, I got away with this. I got away with this. Right? Can I abandon our Kurdish allies? Yep, I got away with that. And the big one. Here’s another. Can I put – can I separate immigrant families and put them in cages? Well, I got away with that. That’s the one where I look back and feel like we all probably. We should have mobilized and marched on Washington at that point, and we didn’t.

[01:08:16] CALLER: Absolutely. I agree with you. Absolutely.

[01:08:21] CHRIS: We knew it in our guts then. And, I felt, consistently, I mean I’m sure, you know what, there’s people who did, I’m sure there’s people who did, but not like that 1968 level march, you know, it didn’t happen. It should have. We all know that. And I just want to make sure I say he’s – everything he said, I’m going to get away with this. Can I do it? I did it. And when this guy said I might call in the military to regulate all these, he is using George Floyd as an excuse. The police are already an army. When you see the footage, it’s clear. 

[01:08:58] CALLER: Right. 

[01:08:58] CHRIS: He’s going to have tanks in major American cities, this guy is going to have army helicopters flying over Baltimore and Detroit and Chicago and New York. 

[01:09:11] CALLER: Mhm. 

[01:09:12] CHRIS: This is martial law, this is fascism. This is what the American Revolution was about, this is why Strange Fruit was written, this is it. 

[01:09:25] CALLER: Yeah.

[01:09:26] CHRIS: This is it. And he’s trying to use protests. He’s saying protesters are terrorists. I might need to put the military on the streets and again, not to make it about me, but being someone who comes – my grandfather was from Northern Ireland and I am a fan of knowing my history. There was military on the streets there for decades and they said that was for people’s protection against terrorists. And those people were at war in their own neighborhoods for decades. And you can go watch footage of it. And you, too, right now. Go look up what happened in Belfast, look up what happened in Derry when the British government decided to put military on the streets to quote unquote, protect people. And you know what happened? Not only did people go to war with them, they went to war with each other. There were Catholic gangs and there were Protestant forces. The Constabulary forces who – it was looked the other way when they decided to fuck people up in the same way that I just saw video of cops warning the proud boys, you’re going to want to go inside. The gas is coming when it’s Charlottesville. There’s nice people on both sides when it’s. George Floyd protests – Antifa are terrorists. End of discussion. He’s empowering gangs, he’s threatening to put military on the streets. It has happened in our lifetime. Many places in the world. We can’t fall for it, at some point we got to draw a line in the sand and we got to say – this guy does not get away with this one. 

[01:11:02] CALLER: Right. It’s crazy as hell.

[01:11:04] CHRIS: It’s nuts.

[01:11:05] CALLER: Mhm.

[01:11:07] CHRIS: Anyway…

[01:11:09] CALLER: Exactly, and I think you know, how they always say, like you don’t have to – you know, karma will get them at the end, karma will get them, you know, and I just I only say, like, when is his karma coming? Because I want to see. (laughs)

[01:11:23] CHRIS: Oh, you and me both. 

[01:11:25] CALLER: I want to witness it. I want to be a witness to his karma.

[01:11:29] CHRIS: I will sit and watch it on TV and eat popcorn like it’s a summer blockbuster. 

[01:11:37] CALLER: Yes, exactly!

[01:11:41] CHRIS: Oh, if he – 

[01:11:43] CALLER: We deserve it, we deserve it.

[01:11:46] CHRIS: If riot cops ever put him in a zip tie and tried him for his crimes, I would buy a ticket. If they showed it in a movie theater, I’d buy a ticket, I would. 

[01:11:57] CALLER: Two tickets.

[01:11:58] CHRIS: Oh yeah, you’re right. You’re right.

[01:12:01] CALLER: You got to go twice. You got to go at least twice one during the day and one during the afternoon. (both laugh)

[01:12:11] CHRIS: I just the thought of it. It’s making me feel more relaxed. 

[01:12:13] CALLER: Yes. See? Yep, the little things. (laughs)

[01:12:20] CHRIS: I got to say as we wind down, I still feel like I talked too much and I apologize.

[01:12:25] CALLER: No, you did not. This was a conversation and I feel like it was a good conversation!

[01:12:30] CHRIS: I do too. And I thank you for having it because you’re someone who has had to deal with an immeasurable amount of pain in your personal life and in societal ways, especially right now. And the resiliency you’ve relayed about yourself and your ability to relay a message of come together, love, hope. It’s, it’s got me feeling less depressed than I did yesterday. Still just as angry and less depressed, and that’s probably the type of state that actually allows me to think clearly and figure out how to do some goddamn good.

[01:13:13] CALLER: I’m so glad to hear that. Thank you for saying that. I truly appreciate it. I appreciate this call. I’m so thankful we were able to have this conversation today and, you know, just stay in gratitude and, you know, we got to keep fighting the power and Black Lives Matter.

[01:13:32] CHRIS: They do. And if you have a problem with those three words, don’t –

[01:13:37] CALLER: Kiss my black ass.

[01:13:42] CHRIS: (laughs) 

[01:13:46] CALLER: Bye Chris. [ring]

[01:13:51] CHRIS: I can’t imagine a better place to end than that caller, I said it throughout. It was necessary for me to hear you right now. And I cannot thank you enough for giving me perspective I didn’t have, for putting me in a place where I feel less depressed, more motivated. But it’s not about me. And I truly, sincerely hope that anything you needed to get out there into the world has gotten out there and I know I talk too much, I thank you for bearing with me, and I hope that. By adding extra time, we just made sure we covered every base you wanted to cover. I so sincerely hope that. Thank you immensely for calling. Thank you to Jared O’Connell, Anita Flores, thanks to Shell Shack for the music, Apple podcast, rate, review subscribe, our back catalogs are one Stitcher Premium. See you next time.