224 — A Posh Perspective
[00:00:06] CHRIS: Hello to everybody who’s taking on a big fat squirrel, Beautiful Anonymous, one hour, one phone call, no names, no holds barred.
[00:00:17] THEME MUSIC: I’d rather go one on one, I think it’ll be more fun and I’ll get to know you and you’ll get to know me.
[00:00:28] Hi everybody, Chris Gethard here, welcome to Beautiful Anonymous. Another episode… not to talk about from recent episodes. Couple things I want to just addressed, then we’ll get into this week’s episode, which is, I think, a very good combination of a serious and funny. First off, though, a couple of things going on related to past episodes. One, a few weeks back, we had our caller who was about to head off to college, who had gotten into Columbia, but was heading to state school instead to help keep an eye on family, help get some finances together. Bunch of the people on our Facebook group very kindly said I would… I would start something and throw some money towards the caller. And we actually Jared reached out to the caller and said, “would you want people to organize this?” And the caller very graciously said, “I’m flattered, but it’s not what I’m looking for right now.” But I did recommend that if you are interested in helping people in similar situations, that you check out TheDream.US, they focus on providing scholarships to people in, you know, circumstances not too far away from what the caller was dealing with. So check out thedream.us if you’re looking for something along those lines, like caller requests. What else? The asexual lunch lady. People loved that episode. I’m glad people liked it. The asexual lunch lady is now in the Facebook group participating in the convo. Check it out if you’re interested. Speaking of the Facebook group, the “Stalked by my Ex” episode, things got a little testy. I was in there. People… a couple people were upset that I said that I see the value in maybe defunding the police and diverting those funds towards some other parts of our infrastructure. Get why people are mad. I would say if you’re mad at me, come at me. I was a little… I was a little stressed. I feel like that Facebook group has been so lovely and laid back and all about honest communication. And there was some game playing in there. If you ask my opinion. And there’s actually one caller in particular [name], if you’re out there listening, you left the group. You had my back. I felt like you got some people were saying, oh, you’re trying to silence me. You were not. I read it. I thank you for getting my back. I’m sorry that you left the group. I never want the group to be something so stressful that people feel like they got to duck out. There’s enough of that on Facebook. There’s enough stress in our lives caused by social media. That group is a pleasant place. This week’s episode, like I said, part serious, part funny. The second half is so funny. It involves a big fat squirrel, involves an action movie, it involves an ice cream fight, involves the queen of England. The the first half is an English caller talking with me about sorting out all the social stuff happening in America, how some things translate. Me trying to figure out what things as an American do I have to explain more, her explaining to me, “no, I get it.” Her talking about her own racial identity and how she’s come to embrace it more during these times. So, again, if you’re looking for the serious part of the show, first half right up your alley. Funny stuff, second half. You could skip to that. I recommend you listen to both enjoy.
[00:03:46] [PHONE ROBOT]: Thank you for calling Beautiful Anonymous, a beeping noise will indicate when you are on the show with the host.
[00:03:54] CHRIS: Hello.
[00:03:56] CALLER: Hello?
[00:03:56] CHRIS: There we go, hi.
[00:03:59] CHRIS: So sorry about all this rigamarole, as they say.
[00:04:02] CALLER: That’s okay!
[00:04:05] CHRIS: Now, did you happen to hear. Did you happen to hear me shout the words, “I’m so sorry that I’m shirtless and wet?” I don’t know if you caught that.
[00:04:13] CALLER: No, I didn’t hear that.
[00:04:13] CHRIS: Oh, good, good, good. Yes, there’s a… we’re doing the show via Zoom lately. So when I got back on the Zoom with Jared and Anita I said that because there’s a tropical storm outside of my house right now, so I put out the call prompt. And then ran outside to throw everything I own in the basement and now I’m back and we’re talking.
[00:04:33] CALLER: Wow, there’s a storm happening over there?
[00:04:36] CHRIS: Yeah, tropical storm, which is, like, not quite a hurricane. So if my power goes out, I apologize and we’ll just call you back another time.
[00:04:44] CALLER: That’s no problem. I mean, I’m from you probably hear from my accent, I’m from the U.K., so tropical storms aren’t something that I deal with in my daily experience.
[00:04:55] CHRIS: Yes. This is… it’s not a daily thing, but a couple of times a year. What part of the UK are you?
[00:05:01] CALLER: Yeah, no. In London.
[00:05:04] CHRIS: London. Beautiful London. Great town. Great town.
[00:05:09] CALLER: It can be.
[00:05:12] CHRIS: A fast paced town that’ll also grinds you up is the impression I get, but a great town just like New York, it’ll grind you up, but it’s got a lot to offer.
[00:05:22] CALLER: Yeah, that’s true. It’s… it’s I’ve kind of lived here my whole life, but in the next few years, I’m hoping to move to Ireland, so somewhere completely different.
[00:05:33] CHRIS: Oh, wow. Why are you moving to Ireland?
[00:05:37] CALLER: My girlfriend is from Ireland. And if I can… if… we hope to get married. And so if we get married and live in Ireland, I can have an Irish passport and then I’m part of the EU again!
[00:05:50] CHRIS: Aaaah, you’ll be a fellow Irish passport holder. I have… I have my EU passport from Ireland.
[00:05:57] CALLER: Oh, yeah, because I know you have an Irish decent, right?
[00:06:00] CHRIS: Yeah, I got the right of return, they call it. So since my grandparents were born there, I, I was able to file the paperwork and become an Irish citizen. And that means my son is an Irish citizen as well, which means that, you know, I try not to be too paranoid about the state of the world, but if we do descend into total chaos here in America, we can duck out, get over to the Emerald Isle for a few years, ride things out.
[00:06:26] CALLER: That’s exactly how I feel. I mean, I am, like, a variety of different ethnicities and my family are also from Switzerland and I’m also part Indian as well. And, so, especially with everything that’s been happening in the U.K. lately, I kind of feel… I don’t know, I feel very weird about my Britishness in light of all the stuff that’s happening and I feel more European when I don’t like that I’m not part of the EU anymore. And I also have Irish descent. My great grandfather was Irish, but I never had that passport, so it wouldn’t feel too wrong of me to have an Irish passport if that makes sense.
[00:07:13] CHRIS: Sure, sure. Citizen of the world. It’s very… as an American, we take up so much room that being an American, it’s like everything is self-contained within the borders of America. As far as how do you identify as an American and being from different reasons what it means. But I have always been very fascinated. As you said, the idea of Britishness is a… is a very specific thing in the idea of being European, a very specific thing. And it feels like especially being European, it always kind of shifts over what exactly that means. And it’s very, it’s very fascinating to watch from afar because I can’t quite decipher it.
[00:07:56] CALLER: It’s kind of hard being in it as well. And also for me, I even though, like, I’m 75 percent white and I’m only a quarter Indian, but I look very Indian, I have the darker skin and dark hair and dark eyes and everything. And so I’ve definitely noticed over the last… well… since Brexit, really just the level of racism, the I’m sorry, the level of racism that I’ve personally experienced has just increased and increased, especially in my line of work. And because I was born here and I really had no link to my Indian heritage because I never knew my Indian family, I always felt very British. And now I have people telling me that I don’t belong here or that I should go back to where I’m from. And it’s very difficult being told that you should go back to where you’re from, when you are from… I’m from England. That’s how I feel. And it’s very strange to have that kind of increase, you know what I mean?
[00:09:01] CHRIS: Absolutely. So that’s something that’s actually been said to you?
[00:09:05] CALLER: Oh, yes. I worked for a company that has English and its title, and somebody once said to me, how can you work for the English… I won’t say… if you’re not from England. And that was before I even opened my mouth and said anything. And as you can hear from my accent, I was definitely born here because I would not pretend to have the fact that if I wasn’t from here, I sound like a potted plant, in my opinion.
[00:09:32] CHRIS: Can you repeat what… like a posh what?
[00:09:38] CALLER: A posh twat. I mean, I went to a private school. So you’ve spoken to somebody else from this country who has been to a private school?
[00:09:44] CHRIS: Yes. Yes.
[00:09:48] CALLER: So, myself, as a young child, I sounded very pretentious and I hated it. I really, really hate that I sound this way. But my girlfriend from Ireland says that it makes me sound very like I know what I’m talking about, but I really don’t like my accent and her family tease me about it all the time.
[00:10:06] CHRIS: It’s funny. There’s… there’s, you know, just you go different places and different words get tossed around and there’s less impact. And I will say as an American, I’m sure you’re aware. I feel like… I feel like the English toss around the word twat very casually. And in America, that one has… that’s one that when we hear it in America, it’s quite shocking to us. Which is, which is why I was you know…
[00:10:32] CALLER: I didn’t, I didn’t mean it that way.
[00:10:34] CHRIS: No, of course. That’s just why when you brought up…
[00:10:37] CALLER: At least I was talking about myself!
[00:10:39] CHRIS: Yes. Yes. No. And it is, it’s one of those things you go different places and different things have different impact. And that’s why I wanted to make sure you said that before I repeated it, because if I just… if I’m like, “Oh, I thought you said posh twat” and you were like, “I didn’t say that” I would feel indescribably guilty, indescribably embarrassed. So I’m glad, I just wanted verification.
[00:11:02] CALLER: No, no, I mean it in the sense that when I, when I talk, I feel like I sound very posh, and I feel very poor. I feel like my accent doesn’t quite match me.
[00:11:17] CHRIS: I hear you. I hear you. That’s just like in the States. We have a piece of apparel called the Fanny Pack. And I’ve been told over and over again, do not refer to it as that in England. Very different connotations and very different connotations.
[00:11:33] CALLER: Yes. Yeah.
[00:11:35] CHRIS: Well, now that we’ve had that sidetrack where I got taken aback and blushed a little. I’m so sorry. Well, I’m so sorry. It’s the reality of things that a lot of people don’t want to deal with, right? You hear about all over the world that… that… there’s been this shift to, you know, this far right influence that’s dragging everybody to the right and everybody’s politics are their own. Some people had that way, but then. To hear from you, the actual collateral damage, no, “actually, someone has told me I’m not from where I’m from, people have actually said to me, why don’t you go back where you are from?” This is this is a day to day ground level thing that people are running into it. It’s got to be very jarring, it’s got to be very scary.
[00:12:31] CALLER: It is. And, you know, like, everything that’s been happening in the States regarding Black Lives Matter and how that has spread around the world. Like for me personally, as somebody who’s mixed race, it’s been really hard for me to figure out where exactly I should stand. And I don’t mean that by saying I don’t stand with black people, because that’s completely not my point. What I’m saying is that especially the way the media portray it, to me anywhere I’m speaking from my own personal experiences, I would never try and put my opinion on anybody else. But it’s still very binary. You know, it’s very black versus white. And of course, that’s important. But I always kind of I try to view it a bit like a stage, you know, so you have two podiums and you have the black people who are standing on one side who are saying, “this is my experience, this is how I have been treated.” And then you have on the other side those, you know, white people who are listening and then can use that privilege to amplify those voices. And that’s very, very important. And I’m not trying to say that’s not important. But for me, when I look at this stage, I see elements of myself on both sides, you know, because I understand that I don’t have as much racism as some people do. But I also feel very strange about not talking about my experiences and fighting completely with I need to recognize my own privilege because it feels weird to me to not talk about my own experiences of racism. But I also don’t want to tread on the toes of the people who created this movement, who it’s about? Does that kind of makes sense to you?
[00:14:19] CHRIS: It does. It does. And. It’s so fascinating to hear you from across the ocean. What a fascinating thing to hear you sorting out Black Lives Matter, which is such a, you know, people are marching in the streets every day in the States and it’s so fascinating because yeah, well, some of it’s just semantic, right. And some of it’s… it’s very, it’s very wild, you know, to hear you say that it feels black versus white. And I’m sure that there are elements to which that’s true. But I will say from being an American to any of our international listeners, I feel like the real issue is that I think for Black Americans, it has felt black versus white since the founding of our country and I think for a lot of white people it’s been, you know, we try to convince ourselves over and over again that things have changed and this is actually the first time in my lifetime that it feels like it’s black uniting with white by and large, and then and then there are some amongst us who vehemently do not agree. But it’s funny. I had an English fan of the show sent me a message after hearing me say, “you know, let me be very clear that I support Black Lives Matter on the show,” and an English listener actually messaged me on Facebook and said, “how can you say that? all lives matter. It’s not just black lives that matter.” And I said. Oh, well, we talked it out. He’s very, very upset at first, and there’s a part of me that just wanted to be, you know, it’s so emotional over here right now, all of us, that I wanted to just be like, fuck off, you know? But I realized, oh, there’s… there’s some translation here. And what I compared it with to him was the phrase, “all lives matter….” It’s very strange because that, to many of us here who are on the liberal end of politics and progressives, it actually comes off as racist. But I think to anybody from the outside looking in, they would go, “OK, well, all lives matter.” And I said to him, I feel like it’s almost… I… you get it, I think you you see that.
[00:16:47] CALLER: I completely, I absolutely hate the phrase all lives matter, because the whole point of it is it’s no one is saying that, you know, you pick one. You pick black lives and suddenly they’re elevated about everybody else. It doesn’t change anything else. All Lives Matter is completely missing the point. But I think maybe where the person who you spoke to is coming from his that when you are in the UK. The UK is such a diverse country purely because of the empire, you know, and that’s something which angers me that people don’t know enough about in this country. Is, like, the stuff that the English empire did. You know, the British Empire, is not even taught in the curriculum in most of the schools in this country. People aren’t aware of the things that England did. And it’s because of that, that we have people from all around the world who live in this country. You have the Windrush generation who came to this country. And then we’re told that they’re not citizens, even though the UK went and invaded their country and invited them to come after the war…
[00:17:56] CHRIS: Which citizens were that?
[00:17:59] CALLER: Yeah, so the Windrush generation. So basically the UK went and colonized places like Jamaica and so on. And then these countries fought with the UK in World War Two. And then after World War Two, they came to England for a better life and were then treated as worse than, you know, dog poo on the floor and were treated as not being English citizens, despite the fact that they actually were. They were invited to come and help prepare the country after the war, and yet their children are being treated, you know, so racist in this country because people are so narrow minded that these people came to England after the war because of all of this. And so you have a whole range of different people who live in this country, people from India, for example, like my family… and when I was saying, you know, it’s still a very binary, like black and white. I mean, it looks like my country is the fact that people need to wake up and realize that there are so many people living in this country that are treated as second best. And I know that the States has had a very, like, systemic racist, you know, what’s the word… relationship with black Americans but I understand that. But this country has it with a whole range of different people, brown, black, everything in between. I think this has been a massive wake up call for most people in my country, not all of them.
[00:19:41] CHRIS: Yeah, it’s such a strange time. So much to say in response to that, and it’s… it’s really hard to say. It’s already very cool to talk to you because you’ve got clearly both a lot of emotion about it, but also a lot of knowledge. And that’s a good combo. And, you know, there’s so many responses I have. One is I think, you know, I think part of what Black Lives Matter deals with, if we want to talk about the historical roots, and I’m no expert, so this is just one average citizens opinion is that I think… I think that… I think the State’s is actually very similar to what you described with the U.K. of people from everywhere. I think the one of the things, because I certainly think, I certainly think Hispanic people have felt like there’s so much, you know, so much more danger the past few years because of things surrounding immigration. I certainly think you can look at every wave of immigrants in our country’s history. I think Asian people, for, you know, the reason the reason there’s so many Chinese restaurants in America, if I am remembering my history correctly, is because there were so many deportations of Chinese immigrants. Unless you worked in the food industry, you could get a visa. And that’s part of why it was get deported or work in food… Like, it’s… it’s a part of it. And even going back to the Irish, you know, “Irish need not apply” signs, go back to the Italians, the people regarded as like anarchists, not to be trusted. But I think the issue that a lot of us are finally coming to grips with is that all of those immigrant groups and some, you know, you know, certainly the Irish and Italians, because of the color of their skin, it’s easier. They’ve gotten more of a chance to grow generationally and fight their way in to all the beautiful things America has to offer. And like I said, I’m probably pissing some people off right now who are going, “my group has not had that chance.” And I understand that it’s varying degrees of success. But I think we can all agree that black Americans have been here from the start in the most fucked up circumstances and remain today in the most fucked up circumstances. So it’s like when are when are we going to give this… incredibly important community that has helped build this nation, inarguably, a fair shot. Can we just get a fair shot going?
[00:22:14] CALLER: Yeah, I completely agree.1
[00:22:14] CHRIS: And then as far as you talk about English colonization, you could probably argue that what’s happening in America right now goes back to English colonization. We were American colonies and slave owning colonies…
[00:22:28] CALLER: You can easily say that…
[00:22:30] CHRIS: Everywhere in the world…
[00:22:33] CALLER: You can completely say that. I mean, this is something I talk about with my girlfriend quite a bit because she is Irish and so, I mean, her family going back generations can still remember the time when in the U.K. there were signs up saying “no black dogs, no Irish,” you know. And she also appreciate the fact that she is white. And so she’s been able to… Her country has been able to reclaim some sense of, you know, it’s easier for them to find the humanity again, which, you know, black Americans really don’t have. And the same for poor black Brits as well. And also, when you were saying about how black Americans came and helped build this country or your country is the same what I feel about a lot of Indians and a lot of Jamaicans built this country, like I was saying about the Windrush, how they came over and helped rebuild the country after the war and then to be treated as nothing. And that’s something I feel… I feel quite strongly about. I mean, I don’t really know my Indian family that well. In fact, I only discovered who they were about three years ago…
[00:23:45] AD BREAK
[00:24:15] I don’t really know my Indian family that well. In fact, I only discovered who they were about three years ago. And by doing my own research online, I managed to finally track them all down,. But I felt a lot closer to my Indian side from having found them. And it’s kind of the first time that I’ve really felt proud to be Indian, because in the past it was always something negative, especially for my family and I’m trying to like… It took me a long time to actually be able to say, you know what, I am brown, because for a long time my mom never talked about the fact that she was brown and that I was black or brown because that always reminded her of her father, which was never a good thing. So I always used to say I was white. And if there’s anything good that’s come out of this is the fact that I actually feel like I know who I am more so now…
[00:25:11] CHRIS: That’s cool.
[00:25:12] CALLER: That’s the kind of stuff that has to come, it has to come with the negativity of being told, “oh, you’re not white enough to be white, that you’re not brown enough to be brown either,” because I get that a lot as well. But I actually feel like I know my own identity a bit better now.
[00:25:30] CHRIS: That’s an amazing thing, that’s an amazing thing that all this negativity and all this fear… I bet there’s people all over the globe right now going, you know what? I have to, whether it’s embrace my background more than I have or fight for my background more than I ever have, and not sit down. If we can get that mobilized for people in the world, what a beautiful thing.
[00:25:59] CALLER: Yeah, and like I’ve always felt that… especially people like me because I… I tan a lot in the sun, and that’s when my skin, my skin color changes very drastically. So it’s during the summer that I experienced more racism because I literally got about 10 shades darker. But I always felt like I was defined by who I wasn’t, as opposed to who I am. Like, you are not white enough or you are not brown enough or you can’t… You are not English enough or you’re not Indian enough or you’re not Swiss enough. And now I’m saying, no, I am mixed race and I’m actually proud to say that now when I wasn’t about three or four years ago.
[00:26:43] CHRIS: Hell yeah. I like, I hate hearing that it’s laced with so much questioning and and strife… I love hearing you say that sentence, “I’m proud of who I am now. I can’t say that was true a few years ago.” That’s… that’s… really fuckin cool.
[00:27:04] CALLER: Yeah, I think that’s the motto for where I am in life right now anyway. And in terms of many different aspects of my life, I’m actually proud of who I am at the moment when I wouldn’t have imagined myself saying that in the past. So I’m proud of myself for that.
[00:27:21] CHRIS: Now, I got to ask, I just heard this song. You would love this song. You’re going to love this song, OK? Do you know this artist punk artist English named Bob Vylan, V-Y-L-A-N, though, like Bob Dylan?
[00:27:37] CALLER: Yeah
[00:27:37] CHRIS: Do you know Bob Vylan?
[00:27:40] CALLER: Yes, I do.
[00:27:40] CHRIS: That… that song “We Live Here.?” Do you know what one?
[00:27:46] CALLER: Which song, sorry?
[00:27:47] CHRIS: We Live Here?
[00:27:49] CALLER: I don’t know that one, no, sorry.
[00:27:49] CHRIS: Oooh, this song… first of all, it rocks. This song rocks ass. If you like punk music. It’s basically a song about him being… Not white living in England and people constantly telling them to go home and the whole song, the premise is basically him going, “I’m from here, I live here, I was born here.” And it has a lyric where. Here I’ll look, I’m Googling it now, the lyrics, he has a lyric in the song that goes, “You told me to go back to my own country, said since we arrived, this place has got so ugly, but this is my fucking country and it’s never been fucking lovely.” I heard that, I was like, wow, man, that’s… that’s… that’s punk rock. This is not like my pop punk songs about boys who can’t get the girl that I grew up with. That’s punk rock.
[00:28:50] CALLER: Yeah. That… that lyric I very much relate to right now.
[00:28:55] CHRIS: Yeah. A lot of people.
[00:28:59] CALLER: Especially, especially the fact… Yeah, because I told you I went to a private school and I was lucky in the sense that I was taught in history a lot of things that I think a lot of people aren’t taught in this country. And so even as a young kid, like one of the things that we were taught in history was about Oswald Mosley, and I’ve yet to find somebody in this country who I’ve said Oswald Mosley to, and they go, “oh, yeah, I know who that is.” Do you know who he is? Probably not from being in the States. But I’ll ask the question before I explain.
[00:29:42] CHRIS: I must admit my ignorance. Who is Oswald Mosley?
[00:29:48] CALLER: So Oswald Mosley was the leader of the BUF, which was the British Union of Fascists, and he was around at the time that Hitler and Mussolini were in power and he was trying to do the same thing that they were doing. And he was getting a lot of support from British people. And he was very much up and coming until a point where he tried to walk through the east of London and smash the windows of the homes by where the Jewish people were living, and the population of the East End came out onto the street and said, “you will not march here. These are our neighbors, our friends, you do not march here,” and they blocked him and he couldn’t end up coming down the road and from then on he had to abandon his march. And from that point onwards, his decline in popularity for up until about ’39, he still had a lot of support in this country. And I think a lot of people don’t realize that. They always think, you know, “fascism? That never happened in the UK. That’s never going to be a thing that we associate with when we were the ones who fought it.” And yet he had a lot of support. And, you know, people should be proud that, yes, we may have supported this guy, but we were the ones who eventually stopped him. But no, no one… He’s just bad case from history. No one ever talks about him because it’s better to pretend that we never had any connection to fascism than to even admit that we did. And I was taught this is a, you know, I was 16 and I’m… from learning that I was like, “OK, there are some things that I need to learn about,” because other people don’t seem to know about this. And so I really made it my… I don’t know, I just try to learn as much as I could. I love reading. I will read anything put in front of me. So I love to learn and I love to discuss things. And so I did my very, very best to try and educate myself. And that’s why I know a lot of things about, like, the Empire, things in this country I think more people should know about.
[00:32:01] CHRIS: I think the American version of Mosley and maybe there’s more pointed examples, I’m not smart enough to know, but we had the Bund, we had the Bund, B-U-N-D. And a lot of Americans are never taught about this… a German-American organization that before World War two became Pro Nazi. And you might think it was a small fringe group. No, no, no, they had a rally that sold out Madison Square Garden, which is known as the world’s most famous arena. And there’s footage of it. It’s chilling. This fascism can happen anywhere, but we got to be like Woody Guthrie. Woody Guthrie put it right on his guitar. This machine kills fascists, man. And I’m not saying murder people. I am saying stop it in its tracks every time you see it. You have to. It’s all of our responsibility.
[00:32:54] CALLER: Yeah, yeah, and also just to recognize that no one is immune. If you start thinking, you start thinking it can never happen here. That’s the problem. You have to be educated and you have to do your best to stand up for what is right.
[00:33:14 CHRIS:] Well, I’ve said it on the show before, but I feel like I got to say it every chance I get. We spent… after World War Two, we said never again about the Holocaust. There’s concentration camps in China right now. There’s kids still being held in cages in America right now. We said never again for almost, what, 80 years? Now it’s happening again and we’re not doing enough to stop. It’s scary. Now, I could talk about this the whole time. We’re at 30 minutes. I did have a question… Well, I had a question about something you mentioned. You said something off handed before. I’m not sure, because if you want to keep going on this, I’m… I’m ready to go. We got some shared opinions, and you’re live in a very interesting life with it, so I don’t want to divert it if you’re not into it.
[00:34:07] CALLER: I’m fine. I have many things I can talk about, you know. So go ahead, ask me anything.
[00:34:13] CHRIS: Well, you had mentioned that you are hoping to marry your girlfriend and move to Ireland. EU passports still identify as European. But you said if I… if I can marry my girlfriend, I wrote that down and I’m wondering… What that’s rooted in.
[00:34:33] CALLER: Oh, I just meant it in the fact that, you know, we’ve been living together for a year and a half now and we want to get married. The problem is finances are always a problem. And because of the COVID situation that’s been happening, I only found out two weeks ago that I’ve lost my job. I was on furlough for a while, which meant that I didn’t have to work, but I still got money. But now my company has said “OK, no more money.” So I now have no income, and my girlfriend is doing a master’s at the moment. And so she’s a student, so she has no income. And I’m also starting another course in two weeks actually. So both of us have absolutely no money coming in right now, which is a little bit of a worry. So I’m hoping we can get to the point where we can have the finances to actually get married. But that seems a long way off right now.
[00:35:33] CHRIS: I’m very sorry to hear that. I also have to say kind of relieved because I thought you were going to say you can’t get married because of societal issues or family issues, problem with lifestyle, so I’m kind of just here that it’s a money thing.
[00:35:47] CALLER: No, I mean, I’ve had my family issues dealt with that with my family. And that was an interesting time. My mom even tried to throw ice cream in my girlfriend’s face one time, which was bizarre. But that’s all sorted now. So it’s not nothing to do with family or anything. You know, her family’s amazing.
[00:36:10] CHRIS: Your mom threw ice cream at your girlfriend?
[00:36:12] CALLER: Yeah, in the street in front of all the neighbors.
[00:36:16] CHRIS: What flavor ice cream? What flavor?
[00:36:20] CALLER: It was a very strange situation. I think it was coconut.
[00:36:24] CHRIS: Coconut? Wow. That’s real anger. That’s real anger. Coconut. This is not this is not some… common vanilla that you can get everywhere. This is coconut. You might not be able to find that again.
[00:36:35] CALLER: This is this is the posh stuff. This is the stuff she got from a farm shop. It was expensive.
[00:36:41] CHRIS: Oh. So it’s like artisanal.
[00:36:42] CALLER: I honestly think that…. I think the ice cream, the loss of that ice cream, was the greatest tragedy of that day. It wasn’t the fact that my mum tried to throw ice cream in her face. It was more the fact that this really expensive ice cream just got thrown on the ground, such a waste of money and ice cream!
[00:36:59] CHRIS: And this is because, and this is because your mom was reconciling issues with your sexuality at the time.?
[00:37:05] CALLER: Okay, my mom is a very interesting character anyway. And I have a very strange relationship with her that basically, in short, what happened that day is she tried to guilt me about how me being with my girlfriend was tearing the family apart, which it wasn’t. I left the house because I didn’t want to deal with that. She came outside the house and started chasing me down the street yelling, “Don’t you walk away from me. Don’t you realize how hard this day has been for me?” Because on that day, I had to clear out my whole bedroom because she told me that I had to get all my stuff out of her house and then my girlfriend turned around to defend me and said, “Don’t you realize how hard it’s been for,” you know, for me, to which my mom threw ice cream in her face. So she was defending me.
[00:37:56] CHRIS: Wow.
[00:37:57] CALLER: That’s a really short, condensed version of what happened that day.
[00:38:03] CHRIS: No, I have to imagine there’s a lot of exposition that builds up to that moment. But the bullet points are fascinating. And do you think that, do you think that when your mom saw that expensive melting coconut, delicious, creamy ice cream on the on the floor, that it was any part of her saying, I have to get… I have to get away from my own personal biases because this is not… I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding on this one.
[00:38:29] CALLER: I honestly, I mean, honestly, it took me having to go and sit down with her one on one and me being like, “look, this behavior is childish. You can’t be going starring ice cream in people’s faces just because you don’t agree with what they’ve said” it was, like, me being a parent to my own parent which, honestly, is something I’ve done for most of my teenage years. But it was just me sitting down saying, “look, I have boundaries. Are throwing ice cream at my girlfriend’s face is a line you are coughing.”
[00:39:00] CHRIS: I’m so sorry I’m laughing. It’s so ludicrous.
[00:39:05]CALLER: No, go ahead, I’m laughing too. It’s over a year and a half ago now. The funny thing is, is that she wanted my girlfriend to apologize for it. And she was like, “hell no, she threw ice cream at my face. Why am I the one saying sorry?”
[00:39:16] CHRIS: That is a wild conversation to have with your own mom. “Mom, you cannot throw ice cream at my girlfriend ever again.” The type of sentence that… Impossible to predict that anyone would ever say. Maybe the only time it’s ever been said in human history. Think about that. Millions, if not billions of years of human history, you said the sentence, “Mom, you cannot throw coconut ice cream at my girlfriend.”
[00:39:46] CALLER: I mean, to be honest, I’m training to be a therapist. So there are many things I’ve had to say to my mom over the years that I don’t think many people would. But, yeah, I’ve had to have these conversations and I’m like, “OK, Mom, it’s not okay to do this. This is bad behavior. Naughty.” And get her to, like, “oh yeah. Sorry.”
[00:40:08]CHRIS: Wow. So then you’re in these classes to be a therapist and they’re teaching about human psychology. I imagine there’s all these moments along the way where you’re going, “They’re talking about my… my mom deals with this.” Are there moments like that?
[00:40:25] CALLER: Yeah, it’s either, “this is how my mom deals with things,” or “this is how my sister deals with things,” or, “this is how my father deals with things.” My whole family is very weird. And honestly, my girlfriend always says to me, like, “I don’t know how you are even somewhat seen coming out of that family.” I’m not really sure about myself either, but, you know.
[00:40:47] CHRIS: Well, I’m really glad you are. Because it’s very interesting to talk to you about both societal and personal traumas. I’m sorry that you lost your job. That’s very, very stressful.
[00:41:03] CALLER: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, it’s not a job that I particularly liked. So I’m not missing not being there. I’m just missing the money aspect of it, really. I normally work in the theater. So the only good thing about my job is I get to watch things on stage for free, but dealing with the public is not always the easiest of jobs. I have many interesting stories about my time working in theater as well.
[00:41:30] CHRIS: So, is it like West End stuff? Are you out on the West End?
[00:41:33] CALLER: Yeah, West End. I’m part of the management team for a very large theater. And so I have, you know, if you talk to anybody that has worked in theater, they always have, like, their one big story that’s one of the weirdest things that’s happened to them. And then just a whole bunch of other stories they can tell as well. Like my big story is when one guy, bear in mind I’m only 4’11”, I’m very short for my age, and one guy punched me in the face because he wanted to get on stage. Yeah. A grown man, about 40, 45, I would have guessed. He tried to get on stage and I wouldn’t move, so he punched me in the face.
[00:42:18] CHRIS: Now, that’s a place to stop. That’s an intriguing thing, that’s a big role model. And then what we do is we pause right there, that’s called a cliffhanger. We’ll be right back.
[00:42:24] [AD BREAK]
[00:42:37] CHRIS: Everybody, the breaks are over, let’s finish off the phone call.
[00:42:43]: CALLER: …and I wouldn’t move, so he punched me in the face.
[00:42:45] CHRIS: Like get on stage while the production was in process? Like a show was happening?
[00:42:51] CALLER: Yeah, where I used to work, we had a concert on stage. It was Leona Lewis, if you know who she is.
[00:42:56] CHRIS: Wait, who is that?
[00:42:58] CALLER He wanted to get on stage and touch her hand. Leona Lewis. She was an X Factor winner, of all people.
[00:43:06] CHRIS: So a 45 year old man is trying to storm the stage to physically touch a talented winner of reality show, and you are in the line of fire and get punched in the face.
[00:43:19] CALLER: Yes. And then he knocks me over. But then I did what a small child would do and I grabbed his leg. He tried to shake me off and I just hung on to his leg until security came.
[00:43:30] CHRIS: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:43:31] CALLER: Just imagine that, like, a big grown man, a tiny, tiny woman just holding onto his leg. That was the situation. It was very strange.
[00:43:39] CHRIS: I have to imagine security had no qualms stepping in on that one and getting that guy out of there.
[00:43:46] CALLER: No, they didn’t. They were very good about it, and then one of my colleagues said to my manager that, “did you know that she got punched in the face?” and he thought it was a joke until he saw my face and was like, “oh, crap, she actually get punched.”
[00:44:00] CHRIS: Well, that’s the unfunny reality postscript of that story. I also feel bad because a lifelong fan of Morrisey’s over the last few years haven’t been listening to stuff as much because he said so many really off-putting things. But I have jumped on stage and touched Morrissey. So I’ve been… I’ve been that guy. It wasn’t over an X Factor winner, but I have jumped a barricade to get on stage and security did, rightfully so, took me out.
[00:44:35] CALLER: Yeah. So we had Morrissey play at the theater I used to work at…
[00:44:40] CHRIS: Oh, boy…
[00:44:43] CALLER: Yeah, he threw one of his items of clothing into the audience, and this one woman came up to me and she had all her nails ripped off because people were scrambling so hard to try and get the clothing, her whole hand with bleeding, and she was like, “it’s worth it, won this top!” and I’m like, “yeah, but your hand is a mess!” It was crazy!
[00:45:05] CHRIS: No, they love it. He does that every show, and people tear it to shreds and storm the stage during encore. Now, I do have to ask, just as someone who has known his work forever, you’re in the management. Do you have to deal with this guy backstage because you hear nothing but bad about his diva behavior.
[00:45:23] CALLER: I mean, I didn’t personally, because at that… this was about a while ago, so I wasn’t as high in a position that I am now. But he had so many rules in the building. So like none of us, even the bar staff, none of us were allowed to bring any meat into the building whatsoever. It didn’t matter if he saw it, or if didn’t see it, if we bought meat and his security would take it off us and they wouldn’t let us bring any of that in and… yeah, he tried to play over the time that he was allowed, and I think he broke one of the rules that we had to pay a ton of money as well. But, this was before I was as high up as I was then, so I’m not as aware of anything else.
[00:46:08] CHRIS: I’ll tell you, people give him guff about the meat thing, it’s showed up a couple of times where people get mad at him for the meat thing, but he’s done that on like TV show appearances and festivals. But I actually respect him for that one because he’s been a lifelong, you know, one of the early public figures who advocate vegetarianism. So like that one… he’s been doing since 1982. You know, just part of me that respects it.
[00:46:33] CALLER: Yeah, like it wasn’t him that was the problem it was more like his staff that they are incredibly rude about, because none of us really minded. It’s just no one likes being spoken to as if they’re a naughty child because they happened to forget and bring a ham sandwich in. You know, we’d literally get shouted at because we forgot, you know, I don’t mind leaving it outside just please talk to me like a human.
[00:46:59] CHRIS: Oh, boy. This guy. This guy. Now, what else? You got so many stories. I mean, what else? Yeah. Finish the thought.
[00:47:07] Yeah. I was just going because of where I was, I had a whole ton of celebrities as well, and it’s always interesting to me to see which ones are genuine and which ones are completely… they put on a mask to everybody. Because there are some people that I’ve met that how they appear on TV is completely different to how they act towards me as a member of staff, and then some people just completely genuine. And it’s always interesting to me to find out which ones are genuine and which ones aren’t. I’ve also worked for, like backstage for things like, you know, like America’s Got Talent, the British version of that. I watched the audition for that. So it’s interesting seeing how all these things, how staged they are or how not staged they are. Meeting different people and seeing how genuine they are. I find that really interesting.
[00:48:01] CHRIS: Yeah, so much is manipulated. Public images are manipulated. Any show that presents… I feel like all TV is manipulated. It’s not… it was a much longer process with a lot of editing and trimming and things taken out of context. All of it. We’re all being manipulated all the time. And England used divide and conquer colonialism to pit ourselves against each other. And we’re all trying to embrace who we are on the inside, and and Morrissey won’t even let you eat a ham sandwich, the whole world, the whole world is going nuts.
[00:48:37] CALLER: And then there’s a time when I took my manager, and managed to meet the Queen. So that was a fun one as well. I wasn’t supposed to be there, but yeah, the Queen came, and I just found out I’d lost that job, and so I managed to get myself into a position where I was the one making the Queen and I could just see my angry manager’s face at the door just staring at me like “you’re not meant to be there.” And I was like, “Oh, I’m here now.” So I got to take the Queen to the box and everything. That was quite fun.
[00:49:06] CHRIS: Whoa. That must be cool to meet the Queen, but a lot of people don’t like the Royals. A lot of people say the Royals is like an outdated thing that costs everybody a lot of money. But the end of the day, if the Queen walks up, you must be like, “this is fucking cool, I’m hanging out with Queen of England.”
[00:49:27] CALLER: I mean, I… I’ve met the Queen, I’ve met Will and Kate, I’ve met Harry and Meghan, and I’ve met Prince Charles, so I’ve met quite a few of them by now.
[00:49:41] CHRIS: That’s like the whole nuclear family!
[00:49:42] CALLER: Pretty much, yeah! just add in the kids, and I have, the whole set of cards, basically.
[00:49:51] CHRIS: Everybody… And are any of them, like, shockingly chill? I won’t ask for the negative stories, the tabloid stuff, but, like, is Prince Charles, like, cool? Are any of them cool with you or do they just maintain their respective distance?
[00:50:07] CALLER: Will and Kate were very funny with me because, actually, when we had them in our theater, there was a scare that there was someone shooting nearby. And so we had to lock down the whole place. And because I was one of the longest members on staff, my manager was like, “OK, you need to go to the Royal box and if anything happens, you need to get Will and Kate out.” So they’re sitting there not knowing what’s going on. I walk up, bear in mind again, I’m very short and I look young and I walk in and they look at me and they go, “What are you doing here?” And I’m like, “I will be your security for the day!” And I just looked at me like, “who is this child?” and I’m just like, “yeah, I know my normally work with the public,” but they were just laughing at me and were like, “You? Security?” and I was like, “No! But I know the exits!”
[00:50:56] CHRIS: What are you talking about?! What are you talking… what are you even talking about… You’re telling me there was a lockdown situation. And you, a 4’11” person, were… were thrust into an action movie where you had to protect one of the Princes of England and you were in like the Bruce Willis/Tom Cruise role in this in this scenario.
[00:51:21] CALLER: Yeah, I guess… just because I knew where the exit was supposed to hand them off to an actual security person, but because they had their own security, they didn’t know the theaters as well as I did. So I had to lead them, if anything happened, I had to lead them to the backstage, to their little security people waiting. So they just didn’t expect someone like me to turn up. So they found that kind of funny. It was kind of funny, really, when you think about it.
[00:51:49] CHRIS: And then you wind up locked down in a room together for hours and you become lifelong friends???
[00:51:56] CALLER: I wish! No, I just… I just stood there and they were just talking among themselves. They were very nice, but they didn’t really say that much to me. I just stood there with, like, you know, people like my own family were calling me, asking me if I was okay because it was all over the news that there was, like, somebody shooting outside. So I had, like, my own family and friends calling me like, “are you dead are you alive, are you shot, are you okay?!” and I’m like, “no, I’m just looking after Will and Kate! Yay!” It was a really surreal day.
[00:52:31] CHRIS: You have had. A pretty fascinatingly weird life, are you aware of this?
[00:52:41] CALLER: Yeah. I call it quirky.
[00:52:45] CHRIS: Quirky. A quirky life. I think that’s fair.
[00:52:48] CALLER: Yeah, I mean, I’ve had so many different experiences from working in and even though it’s not the career that I’m going to end up doing… I wouldn’t change it. I’ve met so many cool people and not everyone can say they’ve met the Queen, you know,
[00:53:06] CHRIS: That’s cool. So the plan is to stabilize the finances, get your girlfriend her degree, get married, go to Ireland?
[00:53:22] CALLER: Yep. Yes.
[00:53:24] CHRIS: That’s pretty cool, and then you get the EU passport, so then you can work anywhere in the EU and travel around at will and whatnot.
[00:53:31] CALLER: Exactly, and, yeah, I’m really, really passionate about therapy and about mental health in general, and it’s something that I feel like I really want to make a difference with. And I know lots of people call on the show and talk about mental health and stuff. So that’s kind of why I didn’t go for that kind of route with Michael, because I know I think a lot of people have said things that I would say but it’s something I’m really, really passionate about and I really want to make a difference. So, yeah, and especially during this lockdown, my girlfriend has been diagnosed with ADHD and that’s something that I really, really want to help other people with. And I’m also really passionate about dissociative identity disorder, which many people don’t know what that is either. And I want to change that and help people with that. So, yeah.
[00:54:27] CHRIS: That’s what I’ve heard of. But I’m not totally sure what it is…
[00:54:29] CALLER: You want me to explain?
[00:54:31] CHRIS: I mean, we have nine and a half minutes left and it doesn’t sound like a quick conversation, but I’d love to hear the broad premise.
[00:54:39] CALLER: I’ll give you the short version. So if you imagine a mirror and imagine that mirror is somebody’s personality, and if you were to hit that mirror repeatedly with a hammer, it would break into different pieces, correct? I’m making sure you’re getting it before I go on…
[00:54:57] CHRIS: I’m following.
[00:54:58] CALLER: Yeah. So if you imagine a child’s personality is very, very fragile like this. Now, if a child experiences severe trauma before that mirror has become fully on section, then the personality splits into different sections. But ultimately, those sections are still part of the same mirror. So unlike the way it’s normally presented, like multiple personality disorder, it’s not multiple personalities. It’s one personality that’s been split off into different sections, because if a child can splinter off different memories into different parts of themselves, then they don’t have to remember the abuse that they’re going through, which allows them to continue to live daily life and that it’s those different fragments that then become alters and ‘alters’ is the short word for altered state of consciousness. So these alters, he brought them all together, you would have the person who should have existed, but instead that one person is split off into different parts.
[00:56:02] CHRIS: Right.
[00:56:03] CALLER: That’s the most basic way I can explain that.
[00:56:05] CHRIS: I mean, that was a beautifully thorough and descriptive answer about people compartmentalizing and dividing themselves up in order to survive trauma. That’s a beautiful thing you want to help with.
[00:56:16] CALLER: Yes.
[00:56:17] CHRIS: Now, the reason why I said it’s nine and a half minutes, because it’s fascinating, and clearly there’s… like you’re one of these callers who, like, there’s been four things that could have been the whole call. But the reason I said it sounds long so let’s do the bullet point is because now we have a little over seven minutes left. And I just have a feeling. That if I say to you, “and what else is going on?” That something… something is going to come out that I want to hear. I just have a feeling. So what else is going on once again?
[00:56:51] CALLER: Okay. Should I answer, then? I have been creating a lovely balcony, and that balcony has been my therapy over the last few months without any focus because I have no job to do. So I’ve been really focusing on my balcony and making it, like, basically an extension of that. And then I woke up one morning, went out onto the balcony, and the squirrel had eaten about 14 of my plants. And this was, like, the worst thing that could have happened to me at that time, because my balcony, like I said, was my therapy and I was sobbing. I was so distraught over the loss of my plants and my girlfriend was so angry that this squirrel had come and eaten my plants that she was like, “right, we are going to catch this goddamn squirrel.” So she went onto Amazon and started Googling how to catch a squirrel and she bought a squirrel trap. So we put out this squirrel trap. It’s a humane one, but it doesn’t kill it. It’s just trapped inside this metal cage. We put this case out from the balcony, and we put the normal things in it like peanut butter and things. Nothing. Didn’t want the peanut butter. But then my girlfriend was like, “well, clearly it likes plants, it likes greenery… it’s obviously a squirrel who’s on a diet.” So we went and bought a head of cabbage, and put this cabbage inside the cage, left out for one night, came out the next morning. The fattest squirrel that I’ve ever seen is now trapped inside this cage. And my girlfriend and I look at each other like, “OK, well, we caught him, but what do we do now? It’s just in a cage!” So, I went into the garden center that I’ve been going to quite a lot because it’s a community garden center run by the council and I’ve made a friend there, a guy who just walks up one day and I was like, “Oh hey, you work for the council, right?” He’s like, “yeah…” and I was like, “I have a squirrel in a cage on my balcony any chance you can come take it away from me?” and he didn’t even bat an eyelid. He was like, “sure, I’ll come around this afternoon.” So this guy just walks up that afternoon, takes the squirrel away in this cage. And I’m like, yeah. So I bought him a tiny little school toy for his daughter to say thank you. And that was how we destroyed the squirrel that was eating plants on my balcony. And now my plants are safe. I’m happy. And so am I.
[00:59:11] CHRIS: See, I said, if I asked you what else, you’d have something to and you tell a story about going to war with a real fat squirrel, I knew it.
[00:59:22] CALLER: Yeah, honestly, I’ve never seen a squirrel that fat in my life.
[00:59:27] CHRIS: And you know, in your heart, it’s because he’s in your plants.
[00:59:32] CALLER: Yeah, I mean, the council guy came over and went, “wow, that’s a fat squirrel.” And I said, “well, no wonder, he was eating all of my plants,” and he just burst out laughing. But every morning, about 4:00 a.m. and we would just hear this, like, thump. Thump, thump, thump, thump, thump as it ran over the roof because we were in an attic flat and my girlfriend was like, “he’s so loud, it could just be me running on the balcony at this point. It could be, he’s just so fat.” It was so funny. I mean, it wasn’t funny at the time. But now that he’s gone, I can laugh about it.
[01:00:01] CHRIS: My version of that story is that, as I mentioned at the top of this call, right before we started talking, I was in my backyard throwing everything that could blow away into the basement in case the winds pick up. And one of my neighbors yelled from her yard, “I just saw a bear walk through your backyard.” So I’m now worried about that for the rest of your life. Now, for the rest of my life, I’ve have to worry about that. I mean, who knows? He could have been a skinny bear who only eats bear food and will leave my food alone. But odds are I got to be pretty careful about this bear situation.
[01:00:42] CALLER: Yeah, I would if I were you.
[01:00:45] CHRIS: It’s a lot different. When you move out of London, maybe. Leaving New York City. I never had to worry about a bear in New York City. What what part of Ireland are you going to?
[01:00:58] CALLER: My girlfriend’s family are kind of near Dublin, but we don’t know whether we would be in the same kind of area. I mean, we have the whole country to pick from at this point. I mean we really like that area, it just depends on what we can afford and stuff like that. But I still have to do a two year masters, so it’s still quite a ways off there.
[01:01:18] CHRIS: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. We’ve got two and a half minutes left, and this has been… you strike me as one of the callers that… and I feel this way to some degree or other about everybody… but I feel like you in particular, if we ever met up, it would be a very easy energy, and I don’t feel that about a lot of people. I usually am very shy and uncomfortable, but I have a feeling you and I would get along my 4’11” friend.
[01:01:53] CALLER: Well, thank you. I mean, I’m guessing I will check out that song that you mentioned, because I think we’re both very passionate about music as well. And I absolutely love music. I love singing. I play the guitar. So I think we can have a whole conversation about that as well.
[01:02:08] CHRIS: Well, I… that song… the first time I heard it, I was like, “whoa, this is good. People are using music to say stuff right now.” So I keep thinking about the ’60s and I keep thinking about, you know, the ’80s with like Billy Bragg, one of my favorite artists, like…. During times of upheaval, artists have traditionally stood up and some of them managed to nail some things that needed to be said. And I think about how Amazon owns so much music now and Apple and these corporations that don’t pay their taxes. And I’m like, I don’t know, Spotify pays taxes, but I’m like… I’m very disturbed that the places that distribute music are people are companies that have a vested interest in making sure artists don’t say certain things. So I feel like every artist in the world right now has to figure out how to stand up and say some stuff because we need a new Bob Dylan right now. We need new Billy Bragg. I mean, we still got the old Billy Bragg. So that’s a good start. That’s a good start.
[01:03:12] CALLER: Yeah, I agree, and that’s something else that I loved about my job is that the people who came and performed were, so, they weren’t like mainstream artists… They were people who used to perform, you know, back in the ’70s, ’80s, ’90s and before that, you know, it was good sometimes just listening to good live music rather than the stuff that gets churned out and on the radio sometimes.
[01:03:42]CHRIS: I really hope for a better future and to go back to the beginning. I’m happy to hear you embracing pride in who you are and I hope that, you know, the first half of the call you talked about some scary stuff and some people coming at you in ways that are not OK. And I hope that second half of the call helped take your mind off things at least a little bit. And I really wish the best to you and your girlfriend. I hope you wind up in Ireland married and happy and financially stable and with all the things you deserve in life.
[01:04:15] CALLER: Thank you. That’s very kind of you to say.
[01:04:22] CHRIS: Caller, so sincerely, it was a pleasure talking to you. We talked about some intense stuff. We talked about some stuff that was very funny, but as I said in the course of the call, felt easy going. And I have a feeling that if we ever meet in real life, I’m actually going to be socially comfortable for once and not the most off-putting human being, as most fans of the show will tell you I am in real life. Thank you for all of the insight telling me about your background, some of the tough times, some of the strange times. Telling me about the time that you were personally tasked with escorting members of the Royal family to safety. What an interesting life, thank you to Jared O’Connell and Anita Flores in the booth, thank you to Shellshag for the music. You like the show? One thing you can do to help: rate, review, subscribe. Check out the entire Beautiful Anonymous back catalog. It’s on Stitcher Premium, along with a bunch of our follow-ups, Stitcher Premium dot com slash stories for more details on that. We’ll see you next time.
[01:04:18] THEME MUSIC: catch me, face to face.