244 — Another 39 Year Old Grandma
CHRIS [00:00:05] Hello to everybody who thrives in chaos, it’s Beautiful Anonymous, one hour, one phone call, no names, no holds barred.
THEME MUSIC [00:00:13] I’d rather go one on one, I think it’ll be more fun and I’ll get to know you and you’ll get to know me.
CHRIS [00:00:28] Hi everybody, Chris Gethard here, welcome to another episode of Beautiful Anonymous, I got to say, we’ve had some tough episodes lately and we’ve had some really fun episodes lately, right? You got The Pirate, you got the Groundhog Day guy. You also have our last week’s episode about murder and the recent episode following up with one of our Motor City Mayhem boys, about about something just really, really horrific that he lived through. And I just got to say, it’s been a sesaw, I thank everybody who’s been checking out the shows and exploring all corners of life in that way and last week’s call, there’s a really great level of discussion in the Facebook group. A lot of people pointing out that I probably should have stressed harder about the omnipresence of violence against women. It’s totally true. I got to tell you, I felt like there were so many trigger warnings that it was almost hard to underline all of them as hard as they deserved. No excuse. We discussed it a lot in such a civil way. And a bit I’ll tell you something big happened here. And hey, Tanya from Motor City Mayhem. If you’re listening, you’re going to be amazed by this. My mom, Sally, told me that she has been catching up on the show and she listened to the follow up and for the first time ever, she said she heard that caller say sorry Sally after saying the F word, and she sat there and out loud went, no, no, no, no, no, no. You’re allowed to say it. You’re allowed to say it. That is a first in the many years of doing this show. So that’s a huge development. Thanks, everybody who’s been supporting this show over the years. Honest to God, it means the world to me. This week’s episode, here’s here’s how long we’ve been doing this show. And here’s how crazy the world is. We have another person who became a grandma at the age of 39, another 39 year old grandma. Who would have thunk that we’d ever stumble into this? We talk about that. We also talk about the real estate industry and its inner workings, we talk about helping to navigate schooling from home during the pandemic, we talk about caring for one’s elders, one’s parents as they face the late stages of life. I think it’s kind of really amazing in an old school way where we bounce from some stuff that’s funny to some stuff that’s just interesting to some stuff that’s really emotional. I thank the caller for all the vulnerability and honesty and info, and I hope you enjoy it.
PHONE ROBOT [00:02:59] Thank you for calling Beautiful Anonymous, a beeping noise will indicate when you are on the show with the host. [BEEP]
CALLER [00:03:07] Hello.
CHRIS [00:03:08] Hi.
CALLER [00:03:10] Hi.
CHRIS [00:03:10] How are you?
CALLER [00:03:13] How are you? I’m doing OK. I think, how about you?
CHRIS [00:03:17] That’s good, I’m pretty good I, I had a late night and an early morning. That’s my biggest complaint, and then it’s the day, the day before Thanksgiving. So I went to the supermarket at eight a.m. to try to make sure it wasn’t full of people coughing and breathing.
CALLER [00:03:38] How did that workout, I bet not so good, right?
CHRIS [00:03:41] It was all right. Actually, it was it was not too crowded. Everybody was being smart and safe and wearing masks and avoiding each other. So I did appreciate it. But yeah, Cal started screaming around 6:00 a.m. this morning. And that’s not ideal. It’s not ideal.
CALLER [00:04:03] Very true. Very true. How do we get started on this thing?
CHRIS [00:04:11] I think I just ask you what your deal is and then you start rambling that’s how it usually goes.
CALLER [00:04:16] OK.
CHRIS [00:04:17] How are you, what’s your deal?
CALLER [00:04:18] Oh, gosh. So my deal I have lots of deals. My current deal is in the last several months, I have completely changed my whole life. I was in real estate for a very long time in a pretty high powered position. And I decided to leave that position to stay at my house and do distance learning with my seven year old grandson.
CHRIS [00:04:50] Wow.
CALLER [00:04:51] So there’s a lot of that that was a huge change in and of itself. And then at the same time, my mother was diagnosed with stage four cancer.
CHRIS [00:05:06] I’m so sorry.
CALLER [00:05:08] And thank you. Thank you. So I have been dealing with that. I’m going to be leaving in a couple of weeks for an extended visit down to where she lives for probably a couple of months. I’m hoping so that I can spend time and be with her. So that’s been kind of an interesting thing. My mom is a super strong, very independent person and always has been. And so this is a challenge for her having to give things up and recognizing that she can’t do as much as she used to. You know?
CHRIS [00:05:49] Yeah, yeah, I have, um. So you have a seven year old grandson and your mom is still alive, so even though things are so rough right now, I’m always so impressed when I hear about a family where a great grand kid gets to know their great grandparent. I always I always think that’s, I always think that’s a lovely thing.
CALLER [00:06:17] It is you know, I barely knew my grandparents growing up. And so for for them to have this time is is really precious. And, you know, it also speaks to, I think, mostly my child having children early. He he started having his babies right out of high school.
CHRIS [00:06:44] Oh, wow.
CALLER [00:06:45] So that made me kind of a young grandma. I was thirty nine the first time I became a grandma.
CHRIS [00:06:50] Oh, wow.
CALLER [00:06:51] So, yeah.
CHRIS [00:06:53] Do you know we have an episode called 39-year-old grandma with another 39-year-old grandma.
CALLER [00:06:59] I know. Yeah. I totally listen to it. And she is a hoot. I loved her.
CHRIS [00:07:04] Oh my goodness. We got to go. We got to get you two on the phone together. Yeah.
CALLER [00:07:13] Yeah. It was two weeks before my 40th birthday that my first grandchild was born.
CHRIS [00:07:18] Wow. I mean, and was this was your son in a relationship where that was the plan or was it something that he stumbled into?
CALLER [00:07:27] Well, I think honestly that they planned it. They were young. He had been in a relationship with my grandson’s mother for about two years when they were in high school. And and I I believe that he convinced her that having a baby was the way to seal the deal. It didn’t seal the deal. They didn’t they didn’t even make it through the pregnancy. But, yeah, so he he started early. They he convinced her, I believe, that this was the the right thing to do. And off they went. So.
CHRIS [00:08:05] That’s a life lesson for anybody, any of our young listeners out there, if you’re thinking, hey, you know what’ll really lock this in is a baby. If it’s if it’s not if it’s not locked in already, a baby is going to make things harder, I would imagine, having recently.
CALLER [00:08:19] Absolutely.
CHRIS [00:08:21] Coming up on two years of my first baby, it was really difficult having having a baby at the age of 39. And then as I say that I realized I had my first child at 39. You had your first grandchild at 39. Everything’s looping around in this strange karmic way right now.
CALLER [00:08:40] Yeah absolutely. Absolutely. I mean I was 21 when I had my child so I was a little older but I was far more responsible, you know, at that age than, than he was when he was 18, you know. And then he continued he had two more children in quick succession after that.
CHRIS [00:09:00] Wow. And is this seven year old, seven year old, the oldest one.
CALLER [00:09:05] Yes, I have a seven year old, a six year old and a four year old.
CHRIS [00:09:10] This this son of yours is not messing around. He’s on a mission.
CALLER [00:09:16] Well, thankfully, I think the mission ended four years ago because there have been no babies since. So I don’t know if that has to do with the women that he’s with or or if he’s learned his lesson. But, yeah, he he ran out of the gate like a racehorse.
CHRIS [00:09:35] Yeah what’s he trying to be, like Genghis Khan? You ever hear that? How like there’s like a tenth of the world’s population has DNA rooting back to Genghis Khan because he he went so hard in life having the babies. I mean, and also I’m not here trying to give props to Genghis Khan, OK. I understand that. I understand the nature of his of his ways on this topic. But I thought it was a good joke to say about your son. And then I immediately realized that I had to bail and apologize. So, you know, you said you’re not doing the distance learning with your grandson and that you were in a high powered position in real estate. Was this had you already left real estate or was it. No, you know, things are hitting the fan, I got to go help the family and I’m out.
CALLER [00:10:24] Yeah, it was pretty much things are hitting the fan. In the town that I live in they’ve they’ve enacted a lot of laws in the last couple of years that make it very unfavorable for the industry that I’m in. So there was always kind of something in the back of my mind like, OK, I’m still young enough that I could change a career if I wanted to right now without probably experiencing a bunch of ageism or something like that, trying to get into a new industry. But just a couple of weeks before school was supposed to begin, you know, I was talking to his other grandma and trying to figure out what was going on with his school. And they didn’t have anybody to help him. And they started distance learning where I live back in March. And it was miserable for my grandson for the spring. He he really didn’t learn anything. He struggles to learn at home, you know there’s just so many distractions. And that’s your comfort place. And and being taught by mom was was a challenge, too. And so I just said, OK, here, here’s my chance. I will I’ll leave my job. I’ll do something good for him, which was my main concern. I was just so afraid as I am for so many kids right now who are doing distance learning at home that this is not this is this is hard for so many of them, you know. And when you don’t have someone at home that can focus on the child and keep them on track, it’s it’s setting so many kids up for for a hard time, you know, definitely a hard time. I mean, I know when I first started with this distance learning in September, in the first couple of weeks, I thought that we should maybe send him back to the first grade.
CHRIS [00:12:21] So there was the option?
CALLER [00:12:23] Yeah, well, I don’t know if there was the option, I was talking to his mom about it just because, you know, the learning that that took place last year, first of all, it had been six months since he really learned anything so from March to August.
CHRIS [00:12:38] So you’re not saying send him back to the school in person. You’re saying send him back a year curriculum wise.
CALLER [00:12:45] Yes.
CHRIS [00:12:46] Got it.
CALLER [00:12:47] Right.
CHRIS [00:12:47] Got it.
CALLER [00:12:48] Right.
CHRIS [00:12:49] Wow.
CALLER [00:12:50] So I am happy to report, though, that we just had our first parent teacher conferences and got his report card. And he is right where he needs to be for second grade for learning and math. And so I it is yet another part of the universe that’s telling me I’m doing the right thing, I’m right where I need to be.
CHRIS [00:13:12] That’s great. And if you were in a high powered position, had you had you built up a little nest egg or is it something where you go, we’re going to get through this pandemic.
CALLER [00:13:22] I did.
CHRIS [00:13:22] That’s good. So are you
CALLER [00:13:23] I did. I built up a small nest egg yep and then and then I just said, you know, I’ll I’ll live off of that. You know, I talked with my partner and he was fine with it. And just the benefits are far outweighing any sort of negative, you know what I mean?
CHRIS [00:13:43] And are you going to go back someday when all this is over or is it early retirement or I got to find a new track in life?
CALLER [00:13:49] Well, I will. Yeah, I will go back to work. I just won’t be in real estate anymore. So I am, a lot of my job also led me into the human resources arena throughout the years. And so I think that might be where I’m going to focus now. I’ll get a get a little certificate so I don’t have to go back to college and and then start all new.
CHRIS [00:14:16] I love a little certificate. That’s good. New start. Now listen, you’re out of the game. I mean, we have so much to talk about. You’ve brought up a number of things already that are like oh there’s so much life to explore here. But before we get into anything else that’s like emotional now that you’re out of the game, can you spilled I got some questions about the real estate industry. Are you willing to spill a little tea on this one?
CALLER [00:14:41] OK, let’s go.
CHRIS [00:14:45] So I’m thinking, what’s the what’s the standard broker’s fee? Remind me of this.
CALLER [00:14:53] Well, I think it depends on the area that you live in, so I’m on the West Coast and it’s right around five percent.
CHRIS [00:15:01] Right around five percent. Now I’m horrific at math. So this means and is that both buying and selling if you’re the buyers and sellers agent, five percent either way?
CALLER [00:15:12] Yes.
CHRIS [00:15:13] OK, so.
CALLER [00:15:14] Now sometimes if you’re both, if you’re the buyer and the seller agent, so it’s your listing, then you you should cut your fee down.
CHRIS [00:15:23] Right. Right. Of course. So so let’s say. Again, different areas, different real estate prices, got it, but I’m just going to pick a number that’s easy math wise for me. So let’s say you sell a five hundred thousand dollar house. This means that the broker who facilitated the sale is getting twenty five grand?
CALLER [00:15:46] Yeah.
CHRIS [00:15:46] And this means OK, again, so if I’m doing my math, so, so if you sell one house a month, you’re making 300 grand on the year. Am I doing the math on that right?
CALLER [00:16:03] Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, but you’ve got to be be selling five hundred thousand dollar houses.
CHRIS [00:16:07] Sure, sure.
CALLER [00:16:09] You know, most places or a lot of places are not five hundred thousand dollars you’re looking at I mean, I would say the median here is probably closer to five hundred thousand.
CHRIS [00:16:19] Yeah. I also my experience is in like the New York metro area, real estate market where you go on Zillow, look up a one bedroom apartment in Queens, not even Brooklyn or Manhattan. And it’s we’re talking three or four hundred thousand dollars for a one bedroom co-op. You’ve got to deal with a co-op board. And then the co-op board might not let you move during a plague when you have a one year old.
CALLER [00:16:41] Yeah.
CHRIS [00:16:42] You’re paying four hundred grand for that.
CALLER [00:16:44] Terrible terrible people.
CHRIS [00:16:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they were all nice. They were all nice. And then at the end we were like, no, there’s a plague. We have to go. Anyway, I’ve told that story before. So so if you’re if you’re talented at being a broker and and reputation spreads that you’re good and then you can come up with a workload that allows you to give it your all and really give those clients the service they want.
CALLER [00:17:14] Yeah.
CHRIS [00:17:14] You only need to succeed at your stated goal once a month to do pretty well, cause also if you’re in the market, I would imagine if you’re in the market with real estate that costs less and that it also means that the cost of living is less than a five hundred thousand dollar real estate market. So you’re still doing pretty good.
CALLER [00:17:30] Right. Yeah.
CHRIS [00:17:32] Man.
CALLER [00:17:33] Yeah real estate is lucrative. And it’s when you when you get into that point where you do make a name and so all of your clients that are coming to you are referrals. You don’t have to market yourself any more. So things just walk in the door and then you just have to handle it from that point. And when you’ve got the customer service and things like that, then it makes all the difference in the world.
CHRIS [00:17:57] So when I see, like, you know, you drive around a neighborhood where you see you realize like you’ll see, like I remember in Jersey was always Weissert reelers, realtors, white shirt weickert, I don’t know. And then you’d see it would be like.
CALLER [00:18:10] Weichert.
CHRIS [00:18:11] Weichert. And then you’d be like every litsting. I don’t remember the actual names, but you’d just go on the streets where it would be like, oh, man. Like, you know, like. David, you know, David Sanders everywhere, every block I go down, every house is this guy, David Sanders, this guy’s having a, this guy’s having a good year, so. Oh my God. That’s a good racket.
CALLER [00:18:34] And then people do like you, like you said, they focus on neighborhoods, right? And so then you bring good neighbors to somebody else and then they think about you and they’re going to sell their house in a couple of years.
CHRIS [00:18:46] This racket, I wish I was involved in a racket. I guess comedy’s kind of a racket, but real estate’s a racket. Yeah. You can have like like in baseball, you have a three hundred batting average. You fell seven, seven out of ten times and you’re having a great season. Real estate. You can have an even lower batting average, huh.
CALLER [00:19:05] Yeah you can.
CHRIS [00:19:07] That’s a racket.
CALLER [00:19:08] The only thing is, is that if you’re I mean you need to be sure that especially when you’re starting out, that you have something to fall back on, whether that’s another income or a dual household income, something, because, you know, it is all commission based and you don’t start out out of the gate in most markets making one hundred thousand plus a year.
CHRIS [00:19:29] Yeah, you’re a hustler.
CALLER [00:19:31] Yeah.
CHRIS [00:19:31] And you have to pay, like if you’re working under the banner of a Coldwell or a Weichert or a Berkshire Hathaway. I mean, you’re not it you’re not an entry level job at Berkshire Hathaway right there scooping you up after you cut your teeth at Weichert. No offense to Weicher.
CALLER [00:19:47] Right.
CHRIS [00:19:47] Right. Sothebys Sothebys is not an entry level job. You’ve already done the Coldwell thing when you’re at Sotheby’s.
CALLER [00:19:56] Exactly.
CHRIS [00:19:57] So you’re. I’m in, oh, man, that’s a racket, Hustlas, but then when you lock it in. Anyway. I find it very fascinating, I find it very fascinating, I just yesterday saw my realtor.
CALLER [00:20:10] I did too for about more twenty five years. I said I did too about twenty five years.
CHRIS [00:20:17] Yeah.
CALLER [00:20:18] So you saw your broker yesterday?
CHRIS [00:20:19] He was giving out Thanksgiving pies to all his clients and I said, yeah, I’ll take a pie. I’m going to say his name because I actually he like we clicked hard and we’ve really liked him. Like we were like this guy’s legit, just a cool guy. And he was like,
CALLER [00:20:36] Nice.
CHRIS [00:20:37] And like he he’s just a good guy. And he was really good to my son. And but he has a very specific name. And if you’re in North Jersey, hey, I’m going to give him a plug. There’s this guy, Zander Oldendorp, which is such a specific name, and his family runs like a real estate group. And he helped us out immensely and he was really patient and kind with us. So I don’t mind saying this guy’s name. I think he would love if he finds out I plugged him, but I had this plan.
CALLER [00:21:03] Oh, yeah.
CHRIS [00:21:03] I was making my wife laugh so hard because I was like, here’s what we’re going to do, we’re going to pull up to the curb where he’s giving away these pies and I’m going to roll down the window. And before he can even say hello, I’m just going to go give me the pie, Oldendorp, and then I’m going to grab the pie and I’m going to peel out. And my wife is like, you have to do that. And I was like, I don’t know, I’m going to feel so bad. He’s never going to speak to us again. She’s like, it’s so funny though. I was like, I don’t know if I’ve got the balls to do that. And then we pulled up and I altered it instead of give me the pie, I go, I’m here for my pie, Oldendorp. And just no one heard me. He didn’t hear me. My wife didn’t hear me. When we shut the window, we talked to them for like fifteen minutes. And then when we went to drive away, I was like I said it, he didn’t hear, my wife is like you did. I was like I shouted, I’m here for my pie Oldendorp. And no one reacted. I felt like an asshole. Give me my pie Oldendorp, errr, get out of there. That’s when, the high end places will do that right? The high end places will go hey come swing by Thanksgiving. We’ll give you a pie.
CALLER [00:22:06] Oh absolutely. And then even when you move in, they need to give you gifts when you move in. There should be stuff waiting for you at your house.
CHRIS [00:22:13] They said they told us to let them know. And on our first night they would send like a good dinner. And I bet it was going to be awesome. But then it took our whole move because of the covid co-op board combo got delayed by like two and a half months. And we were like, just get us in the house, you know? So we didn’t. We didn’t. I should call them up and be like Oldendorp you never gave me.
CALLER [00:22:39] I want my dinner.
CHRIS [00:22:41] I want my dinner. And you know what. Yeah, it’s six months in then I want a creme brulee at the end now. I don’t care if you’re going to make me wait six months of my dinner, I’m getting dessert too and an app and an app. I want to a burrata and a creme brulee Oldendorp.
CALLER [00:23:02] Yeah, yeah. Creme brulee is my favorite dessert.
CHRIS [00:23:07] Oh mine too. Mine too. Part of why I knew I needed to move out of New York was there was a bakery in my neighborhood and I once bought a creme brulee from it and ate the creme brulee while I was walking home. And I was like, I’m turning into a monster. And there’s too much there’s too much good food available just on every block in New York City because I can’t be just casually eating creme brulee. That’s a special treat for once in a blue moon. Can’t just be treating a creme brulee like a cliff bar you grab at a deli when you don’t have time for lunch.
CALLER [00:23:43] Don’t cheap in the creme brulee. Chris, don’t cheapen it.
CHRIS [00:23:47] Yeah. And don’t, don’t, don’t. I just felt, I like through. I finished it on the corner and threw it in the garbage can because I don’t want my wife to know I ate a creme brulee, as a grab and go item. And I’m like if you’re hiding your creme brulee consumption from your wife, it’s time to change some things. So we moved to Jersey.
CALLER [00:24:05] Indeed.
CHRIS [00:24:09] I got to pause there, I can’t tell you how real a feeling that was, this is not, this is not even a joke. It’s just a real feeling where I went it’s time to go. Time to go to New York City, I love you. Time to go anyway. It’s time for us to go as well because we got some answers. We’ll be right back.
CHRIS [00:24:29] Thanks to our advertisers who help us bring the show to the world. Let’s get back to the phone call.
CHRIS [00:24:37] And I’m like if you’re hiding your creme brulee consumption from your wife, it’s time to change some things. So we moved to Jersey.
CALLER [00:24:43] Indeed.
CHRIS [00:24:45] Now, listen, we’ve had our laughs. You’ve given me some inside looks at the real estate. We’ve talked about being a young grandma, which we’ve talked about on the show before. But you’ve broken it down on your end. Now you’re going to it sounds like if I remember right, you said you’re going to go be with your mom. She’s dealing with this with this severe bout of cancer. So you’re going to stop helping with the remote teaching with your grandson, I’m sure that must be nerve wracking as you see that it’s led to improvement, let alone how nerve wracking it is to walk into seeing your parent struggling with such a heavy thing.
CALLER [00:25:22] Yeah, it was it was a really hard decision for me to make to leave for an extended period because teaching him is so important to me. And it was funny. I was talking to a friend of mine on the phone. She goes, why are you even worried about this? He’s going to be fine. It’s six, six weeks. Eight weeks. This is it. This is all you have with your mom. And it just clicked for me. And I thought, yep, you’re absolutely right. I don’t know why I’ve been fretting so hard about this. So I had made a trip to see my mom in late October and she was diagnosed in late September. So a month later, and I was there for five days and she had already gotten quite weak. So, yeah, it’s it’s it’s been hard. And since leaving there, I have to Facetime her now every day so I could see her face and talk to her. So it’s it’s going to be a big deal in a couple of weeks going down there for so long.
CHRIS [00:26:33] And I’ll ask a sensitive question. Have the have the doctors said if this is a terminal situation in their view?
CALLER [00:26:45] Yes.
CHRIS [00:26:47] I’m so sorry.
CALLER [00:26:48] So my mom is actually thank you. Thank you. Some minutes, it’s harder than others, like I spent most of yesterday crying and right now I feel kind of settled about it. But that’ll probably change later this afternoon. But by the time my mom has actually had a couple of bouts with cancer in her life. So this is not her first rodeo. You know, back gosh close to 30 more than 30 years ago, she had breast cancer and then within 10 years of that, she had lung cancer. And my mom has been super healthy as an older adult. So she would exercise. She did like the Ruth Bader Ginsburg workout. She had a trainer at the gym so she would go to the gym four or five days a week. And she was eating really well. She she was a vegetarian vegan. I know those aren’t the same, but it depended on the day with her, but very much a plant based diet. You know, they say when you get older, it’s great for aging when you have a social network and things like that. And so she had built all of that. And it just I don’t know, it was just so shocking, kind of out of the blue. And there’s another another kind of aspect to this that I’m kind of curious to see how will play out, especially specifically for me, in that I was nine years old when my dad died of leukemia.
CHRIS [00:28:16] Oh wow.
CALLER [00:28:17] And so, yeah, for a lot of years after that, I was always afraid that my mom was going to die. But I haven’t been afraid of that for a long, long time, probably twenty five years or so. And it was almost like it wasn’t ever going to happen. I mean, I didn’t really consider it, you know, until now. So that’s another mental aspect, at least for me.
CHRIS [00:28:47] You know what I just pieced together as well? Mathematically. Is I’m sitting here going. Well, your mom is a great grandmother, and that’s a nice, long life, and I’m sure there’s truth to that. But I also sitting here going well, you were you became a grandma when you were thirty nine. Your grandson’s seven. So you’re only 46?
CALLER [00:29:13] Yeah, 47.
CHRIS [00:29:14] That’s, that’s that is it’s not the situation I envisioned in my you know, you hear that a great grandma is in a situation and you think, oh, that’s someone who’s had a really long life. And like I said, I’m sure a long, productive life full of beautiful things. But then I’m going, oh, 46 can be relatively young to lose a parent still. And I just yeah, I just piece that together that the impact of that is. Is different than what I had in my head based on what we discussed earlier.
CALLER [00:29:46] Yeah, yeah, I’ve still got a lot of life to live without without a parent, and then with that I have two sisters and a brother also who are kind of going through this. And if you want, we can get into all the messy family dynamics or we don’t have to.
CHRIS [00:30:04] That’s up to you. I mean, obviously, it’s quite the tease, but whatever you’re comfortable sharing.
CALLER [00:30:09] Yeah, well, you know, I mean, families are are families. You don’t get to choose who’s in your family. And we have kind of an interesting dynamic, at least sibling wise. So I’m the oldest and my brother is the youngest. And then between us are my two sisters who are identical twins. So I live far away. My two sisters live about two hours from my mom, my brothers about three hours away, myself and one of my sisters are the only ones who have even been in on speaking terms with my mom for four plus years. My other sister hasn’t spoken to my mom since 2016. And my brother and my mom haven’t spoken in probably close to 10 years.
CHRIS [00:31:03] Wow.
CALLER [00:31:04] And so things yeah, so things are a little complicated there. It’s family dynamics. We’ve all kind of gone through periods and I say we all my sisters and my brother and myself with my mom, where we have had periods of time where we go without speaking to each other for whatever reason. We all think we have valid reasons. And it’s it’s unfortunate. My my long period of time, not speaking to my mom ended when I was in my mid 20s. And since then I have had an amazing relationship with my mom. I love her. She’s one of my best friends. But prior to that she was definitely not a friend of mine. We we butted heads the whole time I was a teenager and into my twenties. So that’s one thing that I’m super grateful for is that I have had these last 20 plus years where there have been no fighting or arguing and I can just love her and know her as a person and vice versa for her. So, yeah, so I’m trying to navigate like with my sister and my brother, you know, do they want to talk to my mom? Do they want to see my mom? Does my mom want to talk to them? What does this kind of look like? So it’s tough because my sister is feeling incredibly remorseful and wants to see my mom and talk to her. But my brother is not he has no remorse and that’s tough to deal with.
CHRIS [00:32:36] Yeah, and I bet for you to have to kind of be the point person between all those between that that’s like a tangled web for you to have to.
CALLER [00:32:48] A little bit I mean, my mom hasn’t asked me to kind of be the go between I feel like I’m because they all live there in the same state and they visit each other more frequently. I’m kind of out here by myself, so I kind of feel like I’m coming in trying to massage the situation a little bit. I mean, the bottom line is whatever my mom wants is what I’m going to try to make happen for her. But she made me her medical spokesperson. So that involves talking to them about what the doctors say and how she’s doing and different things like that. But, yeah, it’s just it’s so shocking how we can all grow up in the same household and have such different experiences and have it kind of end up differently. You know, I mean, we’re all adults now. We’re not kids anymore. And so. I mean, I know as an adult, I had to do a lot of work myself on on different traumas in my life and of course, dealing with my mom and my family and stuff like that. But I’m an adult now and I’ve done that work. And so I can accept and see I can I can accept that my mom was not a perfect person, that she had her traumas and situations growing up that created who she is and how she acts or reacts to things. And just like she has raised us in a certain way, you know, and so I can kind of forgive that or forgive those kinds of things or accept those parts of her, you know, that aren’t the best. Just because I have that maturity and it just doesn’t seem like my brother does, which is so unfortunate.
CHRIS [00:34:26] Right. I also have to wonder because you would. You would hope that your brother could find it in himself, especially right now. There is also, you know. If you kind of indicated this, but if if three of your four siblings have had stretches like this, it sounds like your mom maybe has some has been a little bit of a tumultuous person over the years. You’d have to you’d have to imagine.
CALLER [00:34:56] So tumultuous, I wouldn’t say. When I think of tumultuous, I think of like, you know, yelling and screaming and even potential violence. And I wouldn’t say that that’s the case at all. But my mom was was she’s it’s very easy for her to shut off her relationship. And that’s a protection mechanism for her that she she had to have growing up. And I’ve gotten some of that from her. It is very easy at times for me to just say I’m done and that’s it. And I would never speak to you again. And that’s that’s more just it’s yeah, it’s just a protection mechanism more than anything.
CHRIS [00:35:43] Wow, what a bad spot to be in what a bad spot to be in.
CALLER [00:35:49] It’s hard and I just feel I feel so sad because I really believe later on in life he’s going to regret it, he’s really going to regret it. I mean, he was four when my dad died. So he doesn’t have any real memory of my dad. He’s kind of a nonentity to him. So this is really the only parent that he knows and to have negative feelings and not want to see her or talk to her. Yeah, I just I’m sure he’s going to regret it, I’m sure.
CHRIS [00:36:25] Yeah, I bet, I bet. And when you you know, I also just have to say too and I’m sure it’s been so hard to think about, but but just to get this on record. For any for any family right now, you know, people pass on and it’s, it’s always tragic, but my heart really does bleed at the thought of people passing on in a year when there’s isolation is required and and you are disconnected from your friend groups and your support systems. And it’s just, you know, you live your whole life and then. To. To pass on during a year where there’s all that strain, let alone I have to imagine, to pass on during a year where a lot of people are saying it’s the worst year they’ve ever seen or lived through, it’s just I know that I’m just reiterating a bummer that you’ve probably already had to be immensely bummed out about, which I apologize. But I want you to know, like I just say to say it. It makes seem I think it’s just it just makes my heart bleed every time you hear about it.
CALLER [00:37:42] It’s I think that we are as fortunate as we can be in this situation, because I know that there are people out there with covid not dying of covid, but because of covid, they can’t be around their family members and you can’t have a funeral and different things like that. My sister has has quite a large house and in a couple of weeks after I get over there, we’re going to be moving my mom over there. So it’s in a totally different town. It’s, my sister lives out in the country. My mom lives in a metropolitan city. So that’s going to be a big thing for her. I feel like we’re very, very fortunate in that my sister has the space and the availability as well as myself. To be there with her so that we can have that time with her before before she goes, I think we’re in such a fortunate situation. I can’t imagine. I mean, my heart just breaks for the people who who may be going through something like this and can’t be near their loved one. My mom has opted to do hospice, so I don’t have to worry about hospitals or any of those kinds of regulations. So it’ll be as good as we can possibly have, I believe, for for the situation.
CHRIS [00:39:06] And is your mom at peace?
CALLER [00:39:12] Absolutely.
CHRIS [00:39:14] That’s good.
CALLER [00:39:15] Yeah, that’s that’s interesting that you say that, because that’s something that I’ve been noticing that’s kind of coming over her face in these last couple of conversations. Is this kind of it’s almost like. Because she’s been having to do a lot of work around moving in terms of switching her insurance and research and different things like that. But seeing seeing her with a purpose, again, has brought some life back to her that was that was fading quicker. But she has when you look at her face, it’s kind of like she has a glow about her. And I I don’t I’ve never I’ve never seen anybody with cancer glow. She’s not doing chemo or radiation or anything like that. So that can’t be it. But I feel like she’s just finally, as things are getting settled, you know, she’s really starting to be more peaceful within herself. And I feel like that’s coming coming out in her face and the way that she looks. And that’s good to see, that’s good to see.
CHRIS [00:40:30] In the midst of something that’s, that is the, you know, just horrible that that’s a beautiful thought to hear about that. And I have to I have to wonder, too, you mentioned that after your dad passed, you had a lot of you know, you had a specific and relationship with the idea of death and you indicated that it maybe caused some panic. I wonder. As you see the situation unfold. Is it is it pushing those buttons is it bringing them to the surface or is it introducing new things that might be, you know, developing a new mindset, I wonder?
CALLER [00:41:11] Well, that’s a great question, actually, because I have had several moments of panic. My trip that I’m making in two weeks, I was supposed to make at mid-December and I have moved it up and moved it up due to panic. I had my partner’s grandmother died of this very same cancer. And I know that you can be you can be relatively OK in terms of functioning and all of those things. And then in one month, you can go from being relatively OK to to actually dying. And so that’s where my panic comes in, is that I’m not there. And in two weeks, she could be so much more sick than what she is right now. Now, there’s no indication nobody’s saying that she’s getting sicker or the time is near, you know, in two weeks. But I just get that panic and I feel like it’s because I’m far away and I can’t do anything. So that’s where that trip down there is going to really, I think, help with that panic piece and hopefully help me be able to focus more on her and her happiness.
CHRIS [00:42:25] I’ve been thinking a lot. I’ve been noticing this in myself. And I don’t know where it comes from. Because I mean, when I was a kid, I was so scared of the idea of dying and any time someone, you know, in my family died or, you know, in my neighborhood died, it created real fear in me. And I also think I’m the last age. I really am, I think the very tail end of an age where we were told on a regular basis that Russians were probably going to drop nuclear bombs. And there was this. I think it is true that I think I think people even four or five years younger than me, maybe even less than that, don’t remember that there were generations of us raised where where it was literally drilled into our heads that that there was probably going to be like a mass societal death at any moment. So crouch under a desk and pray you’re not one of the ones that burned to a crisp like that was that was like an actual reality when you were in first, second, third grade, you know. And that was the thing that when I was in elementary school I remember that being very real. And by the time I graduated high school, we didn’t sit there and think about nuclear bombs. Point being like we all have this like. Anybody raised at any stretch of the Cold War, especially you have this feeling of death, death, death, your whole childhood, but I don’t know if it’s because I turned 40. I don’t know if it’s strangely because I you know, my son is around now. I find myself after a lifetime of being full of anxiety and fear specifically about death going. I’m OK with the fact that I will someday die, like someday my heart’s going to stop beating and I’m OK with that. I’m not scared of that now. I’m not looking forward to it. I hope I’m around for a long time, especially to see Cal grow up. I want to I’m really excited to see who he is and who he becomes, but I’m I’m going to die someday, and that’s OK, that’s OK.
CHRIS [00:44:36] Let’s pause right there. I want to say, I really mean it, I think I’ve left a lot of good conversations behind. I’ve tried to help more than I hurt. And if I pass away, don’t cry, don’t cry too hard for me, guys. Just be nice to my son if you ever cross paths with him. We’ll be right back.
[00:44:51] [AD BREAK]
CHRIS [00:44:58] Thanks to all the advertisers you are the reason the show gets to continue and exist after all these years. Now, let’s finish off the phone call.
CHRIS [00:45:04] I’m going to die someday, and that’s OK. That’s OK.
CALLER [00:45:08] Yeah, that’s great. There’s there’s plenty of other things to be anxious about, you know, and with dying there’s nothing that you can do anything about. You know, when it happens, it’s going to happen. However it happens. And so, yeah, I think that’s pretty healthy. Good for you.
CHRIS [00:45:24] Well, I love that.
CALLER [00:45:25] I’m not really scared of dying myself. I’m a Buddhist and so I believe in reincarnation. Now my mom does not. My mom, I asked her what what what do you think happens? And she’s she’s my mother is the most logical, practical person. And she said, you know, I’m going to take the science route. And she said, and when my body is dead, I am dead. That’s it. She said now on the off chance that there are some somewhere else, there’s a couple of people I would love to see and be reunited with. So, yeah, she’s a super practical she’s going to even have a green burial.
CHRIS [00:46:06] What’s that entail?
CALLER [00:46:09] It’s so it’s it’s definitely different, there’s a couple of different ways. So originally what she was looking at is being buried with where you’re buried in the root ball of a tree. But they would have to cremate you first and then they put your ashes in the root ball and then plant the tree. So that’s kind of cool. But she didn’t want to be cremated. So what she wanted was basically to not have a casket, not have her body prepared with whatever they do with the formaldehyde and things like that. So basically, she wants to be put into a hole in the ground. In specific clothing that she wants to wear, but that’s it, and then you put all the dirt on and the body naturally decomposes.
CHRIS [00:46:58] Wow.
CALLER [00:47:01] I know, so they have whole cemeteries that that provide this service and basically they’ll take care of of your of your area for 99 years and then after 99 years, I don’t know if they plant somebody, put somebody on top of you or or what, but yeah, I thought that was pretty neat. Way to go natural, mom.
CHRIS [00:47:24] And do you still have a headstone for these 99 years.
CALLER [00:47:30] Yes, so we would put still a headstone, so yeah it’s marked and so yeah she she’ll be there but yeah, she just won’t be in a casket.
CHRIS [00:47:41] I kind of love that kind of love that.
CALLER [00:47:44] Yeah I thought it was cool, too. I think as long as you can keep the critters from digging you up, you know.
CHRIS [00:47:53] Yeah. I mean, that’s the reality of it. In conversations like this, there’s sometimes those cold, hard reality, right. Like splash of cold water in the face as like as long as as long as the squirrels don’t root around in there too much. I think it’s a beautiful thing what a reality. Now we’ve got about 15 minutes left and this is bad. I will tell you that even though we talked about some, you know, some of the harsh realities of life and death, that I have had a really great time talking to you. I feel like we got a good vibe.
CALLER [00:48:34] Agreed.
CHRIS [00:48:35] Well, with that in mind I want to say we’ve talked about your grandson, we talked about your son, we’ve talked about your siblings. We talked about your mom. And I guess I just love in our final 15 minutes to, when you when you exclude anybody else to know a little bit more about you.
CALLER [00:48:55] OK, wow, my therapist says the same thing, she’s always bringing me back. And how do you feel? So good on you for catching my pattern there? Well, let’s see I don’t know. I, I, I don’t know what to say about myself, I yeah, I don’t know, I I’m 47, I’ve been with my partner for 15 years, we’re not married, but we might as well be. I have a little dog that I love. And let’s see, I don’t know, I just I think probably what I what I would most like to talk about for me anyway. Is just how hard this whole life transition has been in changing my job and usually everybody comes to me for everything, I used to have lines outside of my office door on a regular basis, and so kind of getting used to only one person now. My grandson coming to me for things, you know, in my in my younger life, I had a lot of chaos. And much of that was just brought on by me as a teenager and not having the tools I needed to deal with life. And but that became a pattern for me. And chaos has led me down a lot of negative roads. And as an adult, as I have stabilized in my life over the last twenty five or so years, I have to as things stabilize and they get calm, I get kind of antsy and I feel like stuff needs to happen. And it’s not it’s not a conscious thought as much as the subconscious thought anymore. But then I would do things to potentially sabotage.
CHRIS [00:51:04] You and I similar in a lot of ways.
CALLER [00:51:08] Yeah. Yeah. So that’s been my life lesson for the last 10 years or so, is learning how to be comfortable without the chaos and recognizing, like when I’m going to start potentially I think about acting out in some way and then realizing, hey, it’s because things are nice and calm right now and I need to learn to sit in that. That was a lesson I learned gosh probably eight years ago. I’m actually a recovering addict.
CHRIS [00:51:36] Oh, wow.
CALLER [00:51:38] And yeah, I was I was addicted to cocaine. So bad, bad, very expensive habit. I have I’ve been clean since 2013. But that was something that I learned in treatment was that that proclivity towards chaos and needing it and being uncomfortable with, with just calm and quiet. So I’ve been having to really focus on that the last couple of months, making sure I mean not that I don’t need not that I need chaos now with my mom being sick and things like that, but really just settling down and being comfortable with the quiet and being comfortable with the fact that everybody doesn’t need me because I’m finding that was kind of part of my part of how I saw myself.
CHRIS [00:52:31] Yes.
CALLER [00:52:32] Yes, I’m important because people need me and now all those people don’t need me anymore. Only one person does.
CHRIS [00:52:38] I can’t tell you how much you are describing the exact mental struggle I’ve been having for the past couple of years. Well, because I had the same thing, not a cocaine addiction, which, by the way, I’ve never tried cocaine, I hear.
CALLER [00:53:01] Oh, don’t do it you’ll love it.
CHRIS [00:53:02] I hear it’s one of those things. That’s it. I hear I was just going to say I hear it’s a hell of a fun time until it isn’t. I hear it’s one of those drugs. Now, but I, I mean, I had my depression and I and that led to a lot of chaos. And then, you know, I tried to quit drinking a bunch of times before I finally did. And I just got no I’m going to have a weekend where I burn it down with the drinking. Let me go ahead in 2021. I’m going to do a bunch of drugs, screw up this whole summer. And then I, I kind of learn, I think part of why I became an artist, because people tell me I saw this old episode of your TV show where you guys all built robot suits out of cardboard boxes and actually beat each other up on camera on Public Access TV. And I go, oh, I found art that embraced chaos so that the chaos became positive instead. It became productive. But now.
CALLER [00:53:56] Yeah.
CHRIS [00:53:57] Well, now my TV show is over and I don’t have a staff of 70 people, and I love that that pressure’s gone, but I just kind of hang out in the suburbs now with my kid, and I love that, but I also wonder who I am. I also wonder who I am with all that, without all that chaos and without all that responsibility. And I miss it.
CALLER [00:54:18] Exactly.
CHRIS [00:54:18] And I that I miss it so much. And I also never want to do it again. I never want the pressure. Oh, my God.
CALLER [00:54:25] I feel you 100 percent. Oh, yes.
CHRIS [00:54:30] It’s that thing, right, where you’re hanging out with your grandson and you’re helping to teach him math and his grades are getting better and you’re going, this is all I need in life. In the same way, I’ll go out in my yard in this in this nice house I was able to buy, and in part thanks to you, the Beautiful Anonymous supporters, thank you for allowing me to have this career. And I play with my son in this yard and I go, I am at peace. And then I also go, but I have spent a solid 25, 30 years of my life thriving in a feeling of being completely unmoored. That’s where I felt most comfortable. How do you reconcile those things? How are you doing it? Because I’m doing, I’m doing a bad job of it. So how are you handling it?
CALLER [00:55:16] You know, I’m just I just have to sit with it on a regular basis. You know, I mean, when I when I mean, I have dreams. I’ve had a couple of dreams since I since I haven’t been working, you know, where it’s just dreams like it was a typical workday. But I wake up and I feel so energized and just like, yes, I was on, you know, I could rock it, I could still do it. But, you know, really, it’s the stress. It is stress. You know, I see people getting older before their time because of their job.
CHRIS [00:55:51] It’s that oh you’re right.
CALLER [00:55:54] I don’t want to be that person.
CHRIS [00:55:55] You’re right.
CALLER [00:55:56] I don’t want to be that person.
CHRIS [00:55:59] It’s it’s the dark side, right. I’m a capitalist, I’ve worked really hard, and I’ve I’ve pulled myself up. And I’m proud of that and I’ve learned to stop apologizing for that. I had a friend of mine from from my hometown. He visited me at my new house and I said, yeah, don’t make fun. It’s like way more boojee than we grew up. He went, Dude, I’ve been watching you work harder than anyone I know for 20 years. Don’t ever apologize for having a nicer house than you grew up in. I go, you’re right. You’re right. But but I forget where I was going with that. Oh, except to say that’s the dark side of capitalism, right, is that we define ourselves through work as Americans and your job is who you are and it’s like, well, what if it isn’t? And then people like me and you, I think wind up sometimes going, I don’t know. I honestly don’t know who I am. I’ve realizing at the age of 40, I don’t I don’t fully know who I am, what a weird thing to realize.
CALLER [00:57:02] It is, but in a way, it’s kind of exciting too.
CHRIS [00:57:05] It is.
CALLER [00:57:06] Because. Well, yeah, I mean, you can look at things and you can be yeah. You can be afraid or you can embrace it and say the world is open for me. What do I want to do?
CHRIS [00:57:19] It’s almost funny because as you describe that you could almost go ahead and say, entering the phase of your life where your schedule isn’t locked down and you know where you’re going to be when you wake up at 7:00 in the morning and you know your whole schedule till 9:00 at night. And it’s high-Octane, go, go, go. Accomplish everything, kick life’s ass. The boringness when you strip all that away is perhaps the most undefined chaos you can have in some ways. Now it’s not it’s not blowing rails and selling houses like you’re the wolf of goddamn Wall Street. It’s not it’s not that, but it’s a different type of chaos that has so much more potential and probably a lot more beauty and grace to it.
CALLER [00:58:05] Absolutely.
CHRIS [00:58:06] You were living that you were living that Wall Street life, you were living that wolf life, huh?
CALLER [00:58:10] Yeah, yeah.
CHRIS [00:58:12] You were howling at the goddamn moon.
CALLER [00:58:18] Yeah. And, you know, I really thought that’s what I wanted. I thought it was I mean, I worked my entire career to get to where I was when I left. And it’s hard to get to that point in your career where you finally have made it and realize that that isn’t what you want anymore.
CHRIS [00:58:39] Hmm. See, I’ve been having this thing. Where I’m going ugh I feel like I came so close to every dream I had as a kid, like I had a TV show, but nobody really watched it. I came so close, you know, like I’ve done all this stuff. First of all, I take a step back and objectively go I. I accomplished a lot of things and I’m proud, but I have these moments where I go, I came so close to all my dreams, but then I tell you. I sit and think about who I really am deep down, and I go, coming close, coming that close was kind of always my dream in a weird, twisted way.
CALLER [00:59:24] Yeah.
CHRIS [00:59:26] I don’t think I ever wanted to conquer the world. I think I wanted to come really close and then slink back to New Jersey like I have. I think I always I think.
CALLER [00:59:34] Well you did.
CHRIS [00:59:35] Go for it.
CALLER [00:59:37] Go ahead.
CHRIS [00:59:38] No, you, you, you.
CALLER [00:59:39] I was going to say you did get to accomplish your dreams. It just may not have been, I mean, because you were even on Tru TV. So thatt’s cable. You know.
CHRIS [00:59:48] I got where I needed to go.
CALLER [00:59:53] So yeah you had a nationwide audience. So it was not the most popular number one show on Thursday night but that’s OK.
CHRIS [01:00:00] Listen. In fact, it was it was it was the lowest rated show on true TV at the time and possibly ever is my understanding and I’m proud of that. That’s what I mean. That’s the legacy I’d rather I’m I’m sick in the head where I’m like I’d rather have that be on my headstone. When you throw me in the ground and let the let the critters crawl down to me, I’m like, that’s what I want. Lowest rated show in the history of true TV. That’s how you sell out, but maintain and I’m like messed up in the head. Anyway, I’m making it about me. You’re a fascinating, you’ve lived a lot of life. You’ve lived a lot of life.
CALLER [01:00:36] Oh, goodness. This isn’t even half of it.
CHRIS [01:00:40] Give me some bullet points of the things we didn’t get to hear for the follow up.
CALLER [01:00:44] Let’s see. I when I, I was brought up upper middle class, when I got out of high school, I became homeless on the streets in a major metropolitan city. I was homeless for a couple of months and that was probably one of the more pivotal points in my life.
CHRIS [01:01:07] I would imagine.
CALLER [01:01:08] Once that happened and I came out of it, you know, I had no more fears. I didn’t ever feel like I couldn’t do something or was weak in any kind of way. It’s like it doesn’t matter what life throws at me at this point because I handled that and I can handle anything. Now, you know where before I didn’t have the life experience. Um let’s see here, bullet points. Moved across the country twenty years ago, sight unseen. I was going to marry my childhood sweetheart when I got here. He told me he was gay, so we didn’t get married.
CHRIS [01:01:46] Well, that’s a phone call. That could have been a full hour.
CALLER [01:01:49] Totally. Totally. We’re still friends. I mean, I’ve known him since I was 12 and we’re still in touch. So he’s one of my people for sure. So, yeah, I mean, moving up to moving to the West Coast was probably the best thing I ever did. I love it here. It’s where I met my partner. Like I said, we’ve been together for fifteen years. We met on the Internet back when it was still kind of taboo before Tinder and stuff like that. So we actually met as a booty call and ended up falling in love. So that’s kind of fun.
CHRIS [01:02:27] Love that. I love that. That’s a hell of a booty call. That night went well.
CALLER [01:02:34] Yeah it did.
CHRIS [01:02:37] If you have a booty call, so good that you go, you know, we have chemistry that’s going to last fifteen years. It’s a hell of a booty call, hell of a booty call right there.
CALLER [01:02:46] Indeed.
CHRIS [01:02:48] Well done. God bless both of you.
CALLER [01:02:50] He’s the best thing in my life. So he has he has just been amazing in every respect. So I’m very lucky to have him. So, yeah, I don’t know what else in terms of bullet points and how much, we probably don’t have much time left do we?
CHRIS [01:03:07] We have exactly one minute as this sentence I’m saying ends.
CALLER [01:03:12] One minute.
CHRIS [01:03:12] Yeah.
CALLER [01:03:12] OK. All right. So what do I want to leave for my closing thoughts. Oh, my goodness, I should have prepared something for this as many times as I thought of calling.
CHRIS [01:03:25] No you live in the chaos. This is your moment to embrace the chaos.
CALLER [01:03:29] I do live in the chaos. That’s true. I do live in the chaos. And when you live in the chaos, it’s hard to make things make things come out you know look sane, I think.
CHRIS [01:03:41] Yeah.
CALLER [01:03:44] I think flexibility and open mindedness is the key I’m going to keep working on, you know, trying to be present and not desiring to be everything to everybody, because that’s not really where I’m happy.
CHRIS [01:04:01] That’s a hell of a closing thought.
CALLER [01:04:02] Oh thanks.
CHRIS [01:04:03] Hell of a closing thought. I feel so lucky I got to talk to you today.
CALLER [01:04:07] Agreed. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. Chris.
CHRIS [01:04:14] Caller, thank you so much. I did not get a chance to say in our closing minutes, I planned on slipping this in at the end, much love to you and also your mother. I know that you’re heading towards something really hard. I’m so happy to hear she’s at peace. And I wish you and your siblings nothing but love. I hope everybody resolves everything they need to. And I hope that it is as simple and carefree a process as they can be, knowing that it’s never any of those things. Thank you so much for calling. Thank you to Anita Flores, thank you to Jared O’Connell. Thank you to Shellshag for the music. If you want to know more about me, Chrisgeth.com is the place. Hey, if you’re listening is on Apple podcasts, subscribe, hit follow on Spotify. Hit favorite on Stitcher. It helps so much when you do, if you want our entire back catalog without ads go to Stitcherpremium.com/stories for more details. I’ll talk to you next time.