EP. 168 — Clinical Psychologist

[00:00:00] CHRIS: Have you ever had a craft beer while doing yoga in an art museum? That’s the kind of stuff that happens in Milwaukee. No wonder it was named the Midwest’s coolest and most underrated city by Vogue. They even host the biggest music festival in the world called Summer Fest. And people actually surf there. Sometimes random, but always wonderful. Go to visit Milwaukee dot org slash plan to get your trip started. Support for today’s show comes from The Life is Good Ping Podcast. Join co-founders of Life is Good Burt and John Jacobs as they talked to influential musicians, athletes, business leaders and everyday people about the role of optimism in their lives. They’ll also end each episode with a ping-pong charity challenge where the winner gets to donate to their charity of choice. I had a ping-pong table in my basement as a kid and I find the idea of ping pong being a part of a podcast oddly appealing. The Life Is Good Ping podcast kicks off Thursday, June 13th with the legendary Ringo Starr. Subscribe now on Stitcher, Spotify or i-tunes and add some good vibes to your day.

[00:01:12] CHRIS: (music transition) Hello to all my cats on Prozac. It’s Beautiful Anonymous. One hour, one phone call, no names, no holds barred.

[00:01:24] THEME MUSIC: I’d rather go one on one. I think it’ll be more fun and I’ll get to know you and you’ll get to know me.

[00:01:35] CHRIS: Hi, everybody. Chris Gethard here. Welcome to another episode of Beautiful Anonymous. Very, very happy to be here. Very special episode coming up. One that I halfway through it found myself getting so excited. And as soon as we’re done, I find myself more excited. Talk more about that in a second. I want to thank everybody who’s in the Facebook group. Thank everybody who supports the show. And guess what? We’re gonna be doing some live taping second half of this year. None of those dates are announced yet. I’ll let you know when they’re happening. Except for Detroit. We’re doing Detroit in September. OK. Something really special to me happened, and I don’t know who knows if it’s going to be something that you guys love as much as me, and I know I can get hyperbolic in these intros. But look, we’ve done so many of these episodes and I’ve always been very open about my mental health. And it’s a topic that has come up sometimes on the show. I’ve always been very careful to say I am not a professional. Sometimes when people turn to me for advice, I have to be really clear. I can give you my advice, but it’s off the top of my head. It’s my instincts. I’m not trained to do this. I’ll be honest. There’s actually been a few episodes that we haven’t heard specifically because people have maybe used this show for mental health advice in a way that I don’t think we’re qualified to provide. Well, guess what? After all these episodes, after all these episodes, a mental health professional gets through. We talked to someone actually works in the mental health field. It’s fun. Gets a little meta, me asking if I’m if I’m doing okay with how I handle these situations on this podcast, we talk about where my head’s at, but what you get to hear the perspective of someone who’s on the other side of the couch. The people who we pay to listen to us. We get to listen to her. She tells us about where things stand with the stigmas, different treatment she’s excited about and most of all, what she does and why she feels driven to do it. And I was blown away. I was blown away. I felt like there were a lot of things said that needed to be said, both in the context of what this podcast has been and become over the years. And also, I think things that just need to be said out loud more in society. So really loved it. Means a lot to me. I can’t quite verbalize why it means so much to me, but it does mean a lot. Hope you enjoy this call.

[00:03:55] PHONE ROBOT: Thank you for calling Beautiful Anonymous a beeping noise will indicate when you are on the show with the host.

[00:04:03] CALLER: Hello?

[00:04:04] CHRIS: Hi. 

[00:04:05] CALLER: Hi. 

[00:04:06] CHRIS: How you doing?

[00:04:07] CALLER: Is this, Chris? 

[00:04:08] CHRIS: Yeah, 

[00:04:09] CALLER: I’m well. How are you?

[00:04:13] CHRIS: I’m all right. I’m OK. I always try to answer honestly. I’d say overall things are great. Glowing.

[00:04:21] CALLER: How’s the new baby? 

[00:04:23] CHRIS: Well, he is beautiful. He’s perfect. And he also brings a lot of stress in to my house so that in my mind.

[00:04:31] CALLER: I’m sure that’s usually what kids are. It’s a mixed bag.

[00:04:34] CHRIS:That’s the oddest. It’s weird. He’s like a weird little God-man that dominates all of all of our time and attention and sometimes that can push you to your limits.

[00:04:47] CALLER: Mmm hmm. And I bet you wouldn’t trade it for the world either.

[00:04:48] CHRIS: Oh, my God. He stresses me out. And then as soon as he falls asleep on my chest, I’m like, why do I ever worry about anything in this life?

[00:04:59] CALLER: Mmm hmm, so true. Well, it’s so cool to be on the phone with you. I have to tell you, this is it feels a little bonkers. Last night, I dreamt that I called in and we connected. And I had never considered calling in before. I never knew how. I had not been on social media. I had no idea what the phone number was. And I woke up today. I’m like, huh? I wonder what would happen if I called in and here I am. This is crazy.

[00:05:23] CHRIS: Wow. It’s like it’s meant to be. Now I’m feeling a lot of pressure mentally.

[00:05:29] CALLER: It’s like it’s meant to be. No worries. We’ll just see where it takes us.

[00:05:32] CHRIS: Yeah. How are you? I didn’t get a chance to ask how you’re doing.

[00:05:36] CALLER: I am, I am well. It’s finally summer where I live. It’s nice and hot and warm. And the sun is finally out after the cold and frigid and dark winter. So everything is good up in our neck of the woods. 

[00:05:47] CHRIS: That’s good to hear.

[00:05:49] CALLER: And I did want,  And this was part of what I was doing in the dream last night as I was just thanking you for the work that you’re doing at Beautiful Anonymous. I have been a very avid listener since the very beginning, and I think there is so much junk out in the world. And I think the authenticity and the genuineness that you bring to letting people be seen and heard and understood is just magical. And so I hope, I hope it goes on for a long, long time.

[00:06:17] CHRIS: Well, that’s incredibly kind of you. And I would just like to say thank you and thank everyone who listens Because the longer this show goes on, the more I realize how lucky I am to do it. And it just never, it never stops, it gets more and more fulfilling. The longer I do it and I feel like a real good sense of purpose around it and positivity, so the only reason it exists, only reason exists is because you guys listen and I want to keep it going forever. I want to keep it go until the day I drop dead.

[00:06:55] CALLER: In my work life, I’m actually a clinical psychologist and I the work that you’re doing Beautiful Anonymous is exactly the reason why I do what I do.You know, we can here really, really hard things about humanity and we hear really beautiful things about humanity and it is exactly why I get up in the morning and put my pants on, because to really hear somebody’s story is so meaningful. And I think it is more of what the world needs.

[00:07:23] CHRIS: Well, that’s, I mean, thank you for what you do, because you’re someone who’s really in the trenches helping. I’m doing it as entertainment and then trying to just navigate that line. You’re actually helping people. So thank you for doing that.

[00:07:36] CALLER: It is my pleasure. I can’t imagine another line of work that I would be in.

[00:07:40] CHRIS: Now, I know sometimes does the word shrink offend you? I’ve been told that some people do not enjoy being called a shrink.

[00:07:49] CALLER: Shrink doesn’t offend me. It still weirds me out when people call me “doctor”. I’m so not that kind of person. So when I first meet new clients and they refer to me as doctor, my last name, I’m like, “Oh, no, no, no, no, please call me by my first name.” No shrink does not bother me now. I’m glad to hear that.

[00:08:09]  CHRIS: I’m glad to hear that. Apologies to any medical professionals out there who do, are irritated by. It’s a word I use. I want to get this out of the way, If it’s okay with you. Cos I’m very excited to hear that you do the work you do both because it is noble and helps people also just on a selfish and sort of meta level. My, my shrink has really, she listens to the show and has really cautioned me that at times the show can tread on psychological advice administered by me, a dummy who is not trained to handle it or have any capacity. Do you think there is some danger in this show in that sense, because I worry about it a lot.

[00:09:02] CALLER: Ummmm, I think you actually do a really nice job, Chris, when people are sharing parts of themselves that are vulnerable. I think you’re very good at saying, you know, I am not a trained professional, I only have my own lived experience and things like that. People are going to share what they’re going to share. And all you can do is say, hey, I’m not professional advice and you encourage them to seek out help. And I love the fact that people on this show are talking about their struggles and getting help. I was just listening to the one yesterday, or the most recent that came out recently went in and EMDR for post-traumatic stress disorder. And that makes me so happy because there are really, really effective treatments out there. And what your callers can do and what you can do is to encourage people to go seek out professional help, get involved and evidence based treatments, treatments that work. And it’s amazing how much life can improve. So, yeah, obviously, people in an anonymous phone call share their most, deepest, darkest things. But I think you do a pretty good job of being very clear about, hey, I’m not a trained professional. I’m just some guy here with a microphone and a platform and sharing your story.

[00:10:08] CHRIS: That’s good. That’s some weight off the shoulders. The episode you referenced was with someone I’ve been a little, I’ve been feeling a little guilty about that one because the caller talked about, in case anybody’s trying to remember which one it was, the caller talked about living with someone who had borderline personality disorder. And it turned into a very, very intense experience. And a lot of the feedback on that one has been people with  BD or other people who work in social work or in the realm of psychology going, hey, this is kind of sort of the most stigmatized thing still standing. And I don’t know that this episode may have presented a third party listing their side of the story and underlining maybe some of the worst case scenarios and it isn’t necessarily fair to other people out there who were really hard to keep their borderline personality issues under control and were put in the work. And I’ve been feeling very guilty.

[00:11:15] CALLER: Well and I think in that episode, you’re being very clear that like, hey, this is somebody who has the other perspective, and there’s another side of the story to this. And I think absolutely borderline personality disorder is still pretty highly stigmatized. I work with a lot of people with borderline personality disorder and I love it. 

[00:11:20] CHRIS: Really? 

[00:11:21] CALLER: They’re some of the most fun people to work with. They’re big feelers. They don’t put up with bullshit like they need authenticity and genuineness and a little bit of irreverence and they can be so much fun to work with.

[00:11:48] CHRIS: Maybe I have borderline personality disorder. Sounds like me, I have big feelings, I don’t take bullshit, I’m irreverant. Click all the boxes. Does it involve a weird blend of shame and narcissism? I’m sorry I talked over you.

[00:12:03] CALLER: Often people with BPD do have a lot of shame, but that’s part of the human experience. All of us carry shame around no matter who we are, whether we have a diagnosis or not. I think part of the human condition is, at our core fears that we are not enough or not lovable or not wanted or something like that. That’s just part of being human. I think.

[00:12:26] CHRIS: I have to say in a totally platonic way, I am loving you because it’s like, so much discussion surrounding my work in the mental health field, and I feel like now we get to pull back the curtain a little bit with someone who’s on the other side of the fence, which I don’t think we’ve actually ever done on this show. I don’t think we’ve ever had a mental health professional call in. It’s very cool.

[00:12:52] CALLER: I don’t think so. I think there have been a couple of social workers working with kids there. I think maybe there’s somebody worked in hospice one time that called in, but yeah, I don’t remember somebody who’s actually in the trenches doing therapy day in and day out.

[00:13:05] CHRIS: Now, can I ask you, and if you have anything specific you want to talk about, let me know. I got a big question now that I need answered first. Now, I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of people who are on your side of the couch are pretty fucked up in their own right. Sorry Sally. Am I right or wrong on this?

[00:13:27] CALLER: I would say that therapists are humans too. I think there is, there is obviously something that draws people to the profession wanting to be helping professionals. You know what that is can vary greatly, but absolutely we are people too. And I know a lot of my therapy friends go to therapy and I’ve been in therapy in the past. Honestly, that’s usually part of that training to see what it’s like to sit on the other side of the couch, so to speak. And so, yeah. We, we have struggles. We get divorced. We struggle with parenting. We, you know, manage depression or anxiety or psychosis or any number of things. Just because we’re in the helping professions doesn’t mean we’re perfect. Oh, gosh, there’s no fun in perfection.

[00:14:13] CHRIS: You have perfect, well-phrased answers and a crystal clear phone line. You’re the dream caller. You’re the dream caller. Now, I want to ask you something, something that’s actually rattled me. Between my HBO special and this show. In a way that’s very meaningful to me and very flattering to me. Often times people I’ve mentioned this on the show, people reach out and and then will tell me their stories when it’s not necessarily solicited via this show and sometimes that’s in person and sometimes that’s online. I have to admit the self-protective side of me, it’s very difficult sometimes because I don’t have the emotional capacity. Is that something that, that, that is part of your training to figure out how to navigate that? Or do you sometimes go home at the end of the day and go, oh, that sadness, that sadness has transferred over to me. Because I sometimes feel that.

[00:15:16] CALLER: Yeah. Absolutely part of our training is talking about how do we carry the the weight of emotions that people bring into our office. And there are certainly days where a session ends or I go home and I’m like, oh boy, I have to shake this off somehow.

 Whether it’s a really touching story that they shared or sitting with somebody in their grief and feeling like, oh, I just want to fix it, but I can’t write simply witnessing, witnessing humanity can be really hard at times. And I think it really comes down to the way that we as therapists are intentional about how we care for ourselves. I know for me it’s doing yoga. It’s walking. It’s reading. It’s spending time with my loved ones. It’s being able to, not necessarily compartmentalize because, you know, I’m, we’re not that good. But being able to just kind of make space for the emotions that come along with doing the work that we do and also recognizing that the people that we work with are strong and resilient and responsible for their lives. But I can imagine as somebody who’s not a trained professional, who has been on the receiving end of so many of people who have been reaching out and are suffering and are struggling and are just looking for something, how that can be really, really hard. And I’ve heard you say over time, read that you kind of have step back from that because it is carrying that pain with me can be really hard. And that’s something as you move into the profession, the first couple of years I was in the profession, it was harder. But the more I move into it, the easier it gets. The hardest ones are when we hear about kind of not great outcomes, when we hear about a patient’s suiciding or dying.

[00:17:01] CHRIS: Yeah, I can’t imagine. I can’t imagine that I. In response. OK, I want to respond to one aspect of what you said and then ask another really hard question. If that’s OK. And in response, I would say, I gotta start that yoga or that meditating, because here’s the other thing with me, sometimes people come up to me in person after shows when I’m on the road and it’s so meaningful and it means a lot to me. Sometimes I can tell people have made a point of, this guy has talked about this stuff and I’m going to tell him my story. And, you know, they’re looking me in the eye and I’m sitting there signing books and they’re talking quietly and the line of people behind them doesn’t know that this person is telling me about something very hard or they were hospitalized or, or whatever the story is. And then I’m in a city, usually by myself where I don’t know anyone or anything to do and I’m just going to sit in a hotel room by myself, it’s a pressure cooker. So I maybe I need to get one of them Deepak Chopra apps or some just meditative tweets.

[00:18:14] CALLER:  It’s just it’s about finding your thing, right? Maybe it’s meditating, maybe walking, maybe it’s in those moments calling somebody that you love and connecting. Everybody’s a little bit different in terms of what works. But yeah, we if we let all those stories fit inside of us and we don’t know what to do with it, then it can turn into pain for ourselves.

[00:18:35] CHRIS: Very often it’s my jujitsu classes because it’s very good to have physical activity. Also, I hate to say it, but one that revolves around violence. Often times I do feel like, well, I do feel like since I’ve been a child, one of my base assumptions is that the world is a pretty unfair and unforgiving place. This is a thing I’ve had to really work to overcome and become a much more optimistic person in my life. But, so having some of that violence allows me to just straight up get that rage out. But it’s hard to fight a jujitsu class, you know, one in the morning when you’re done doing a show in Atlanta and you don’t know anybody now.

[00:19:12] CALLER: Yeah. As I as I tell the clients I work with. You need more than one coping strategy.

[00:19:17] CHRIS: Yeah, I want to,here’s a thing I’ve thought about a lot and you brought up that sometimes, sometimes people do what you do, those patients. Brutal, absolutely brutal. Here’s the thing I’ve thought about a lot that I’d love your opinion on. One thing that has actually infuriated me over the past few years. Really, really kind of rocked me to my core. That ties into what you just said. I have noticed that when there are mass shootings, which are an epidemic and unforgivable to me that we’re not, reacting harder these, my personal opinion, I have noticed that quite often when they happen in the initial news reports or the ones that come out very quickly after it will say, oh, this person was on Wellbutrin, or this puts person on Prozac. And it’s it’s a talking point. And when you Google a little deeper, I have found that very often these are things issued and press releases that are clearly coming from, you know, I don’t know if it’s the NRA, but NRA type groups. You see this out there and it’s a talking point that, to me, so demonizes the idea of getting help, and I always think you know who the person who is probably most horrified and heartbroken is today, outside of this person’s family? It’s the person who was their mental health professional prescribing those drugs and watching it fail in such a catastrophic way. I would imagine that’s got to be one of the most horrifying, heartbreaking things for you guys on your end. And yet in the news, it’s almost held up as a oh, see, it was a mental, it’s not a gun issue. It’s a mental health issue. I hate that.

[00:21:08] CALLER: I can’t, I can’t even, I talk to my husband about it all the time, how the mental health issue is brought up. The veteran thing is brought up, anything that could be part of that person’s identity. And it drives me absolute bonkers because it is, it is a gun issue. And I think obviously people who get to a place where they are thinking about killing folks are not well, there’s something going on inside of themselves and the missile that is looking for. I don’t know what they’re looking for, but I can’t help but think like the core the core parts of us as human beings want to feel connection, want to feel a sense of belonging, want to feel like we’re loved and loved by other people and we love people. And it seems as though folks who find themselves as engaging in that kind of violence are missing some of that from their life. I actually this is on myself care things. I don’t watch the news anymore. It’s too much. There’s too much in the world. And it’s hard enough doing the work that I do. To read all about the famines and the floods and the shootings and all that kind of stuff. I actually have a sign in my office that says turn off when you talk to people and feel better. But it is really heartbreaking not only for those families, but for any of the mental health providers who might be involved in their care, especially if it’s a homicide. It’s bad enough when it’s a suicide. Thinking what did I miss? What could I have done differently? What? Where did I go wrong?

[00:22:49] CHRIS: Why didn’t they reach out in a moment of crisis? I can’t imagine. I can’t imagine all those feelings.I was actually, I was working on a stand up bit for a while and I’m glad we talked. It reminded me. We, I stopped doing it because crowds were getting angry or intense or uncomfortable where I’d say, you know, this talking point that it’s not a gun issue, it’s a mental health issue. Obviously, it’s both. It’s an equation you give. it’s mental health plu, a gun is a very, very bad equation. And I would say, you know, I would  go on stage and go, you know, if we can all just accept that and we all genuinely want to fix it, I would argue that we still have to deal with the guns, because there, there have, there are societies today that don’t have guns. And there were made, most of human history, we didn’t have guns. But I tell you what, all of human history, we did have crazy people, and I say that as part of a joke, I know crazy is a word that is not, not beloved in many circles. I totally understand. But it’s like we’ve always had unwell people. You can’t have a society where there’s not people with, with mental struggles, but you can have a society without guns. So I don’t know. People go, people get a little mad at me. I understand that there’s people with different opinions on this, but I always say this idea that it’s a mental health issue, not a gun issue. It’s like it’s so clear. So clearly both. Yeah, but my

[00:24:26] CALLER:  And I can’t, I can’t imagine, so I’m not a parent, but I work with parents. Some of my colleagues are parents and just listening to them talk about what their kids have to do in school for active shooter drills. And I was in high school when Columbine happened. And so I think it’s gotten worse since then. But I cannot being, imagine being a parent in this world and trying to raise a kid where they can feel safe and secure, but also knowing at any given time, in any given place, somebody with a weapon that has no business being where it is, could just hurt us. It’s yeah. It’s so heartbreaking.

[00:25:07] CHRIS: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s also, I was an, I was a freshman in college when Columbine happened. I remember all of it. I remember being in my dorm and everyone there gathering and watching the TV. Horror, shock. For the next year or so, so many pieces analyzing, what happened, what went wrong. And now it’s like not even, not even like in the top, you know, not even in the top 10 headlines, sometimes when it happens, it’s like, oh, here’s a, here’s the latest thing that a politician said that was crazy, here’s something the royal family did, here’s a puff, here’s a puff piece on a hot air, a hot air balloon convention. Oh, and also six people got, six people got shot. It’s like this is 

[00:25:52] CALLER: Yeah,it’s just become a normal part of our culture, which is so wild. It is so wild. And I really hope it stops soon, but that would require our state and national governments to, not be beholden by big money interests. But, if, we don’t have to go into politics.

[00:26:14] CHRIS: Oh God. Look, I mean, we already did. We already did enough that I’m in hot water in the comments on this one.

[00:26:22]CHRIS: (Music Transition): Hey, everybody, I just, I want to pause and genuinely say that I know that’s a divisive issue that’s come up on the show. We’re going to take a break now. When we come back we’re going to move on from there, from anything political. It ties in to mental health, so I think it’s valid, but don’t worry, this one swings in a bunch of different directions. Check out our advertisers in the meantime. We’ll be right back.

[AD BREAK]

[00:28:13] ]CHRIS: In the meantime, let’s get back to the phone call. 

[00:28:24] CALLER: I love it. I love it. I live in a part of the country where hunting very big. I work with a lot of men. I work with a lot of veterans and having fire arms and using it responsibly, like I have no problem with that whatsoever. But high capacity or automatic weapons or guns that are kept at home, that aren’t locked out, that are just waiting for a four year old to find like that is the stuff that just boggles my mind. How we can be OK with that.

[00:28:54] CHRIS: Yeah. And I’ve actually, I tell you, some of the reaction I’ve gotten when I ranted about this before, I want to just be clear to people who are sitting there going,well, Gethard, you’re going on about this I’ve actually turned around a lot on this. Like hunting, you need to feed your family, OK. You want to own a handgun because you live someplace very remote whereas if someone breaks in your house, the police literally can’t get there in time to protect you, I get that now. I actually have turned around on that. Okay. We live in a big, massive physical country and maybe you need a gun to feel safe. OK, but a lot of the other stuff and how easy it is and the fact, again, to loop it back around to what you do. The fact that people with mental struggles very often got those guns legally shows that it is just too easy. Like people like, I’m on Wellbutrin and Lamictal.  Yeah, put me on a list. If I go to a gun store, let my name pop up, please. Absolutely. I don’t need a gun. If I’m ever buying a gun, it’s not going to end well. Put me on a list. It needs to be very difficult for someone like me to get one of those. It should be extremely difficult, if not impossible.

And I put myself at the front of the line on that list. Anyway, anyway. What else what else would you like to talk about? I’ve asked you so many questions. It’s been so nice of you to let me do that. But we’re almost halfway done. So anything really. Oh, man. Yeah. This one’s flown by. But I got to say, it is really nice because mental health is such a big part of what I’ve become known for. And I think what this podcast has been become known for. To hear you talk about it from your side is really valuable for me and I think for a lot of listeners. So it’s really cool. So we can keep talking about that or we can change the subject up to you.

[00:30:57] CALLER:  I am happy to talk about whatever. I just decided to call and see what would happen today and see where it takes us. I am more than happy to promote mental health. Obviously, I could share stories upon stories, but I can’t, you know, ethics codes and things like that.  But yeah. Being in this line of work, you meet the neatest people ever. And I guess, you know, not necessarily even when things go wrong, like suicide or things like that. One of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about recently is when we say goodbye and maybe you have this to Chris, when when you get off the phone with somebody and that story lingers and you’re like, I’m never going to know how it ends. It’s like they came into my life and now they’re out of my life. And I think it’s just been a combination of things that have happened in my life recently with colleagues retiring and one of my extended family members passed away. And I actually just finished working with somebody, a client of mine, who I just absolutely adored. And, you know, he was ready to go. And it’s still like, oh, man, what is this wild thing called human connection? And the way that people come in and out of our lives and how we continue to carry people with us, never necessarily knowing the end of the story. That’s one of the, I think, one of the hardest parts of my job, because I do, as much as we’re supposed to kind of be these mirrors, just simply reflecting the person across from us, you know, being human, too, we get, we have very fond feelings for our clients and get very attached. And so even when they launch and it’s a really good thing, there’s a, there’s a bitter sweetness to it, too.

[00:32:38] CHRIS: And what’s the what’s, where’s the ethics on that? Like, are you, are you allowed to look them up on Facebook? See if they’re doing alright? Or are you allowed to have a secret Instagram where you can follow them and just see if they’re doing okay or is that is that over the line?

[00:32:53] CALLER:  I don’t, I don’t know if there’s any rules and regulations. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with that. I’ve been tempted. I’ll take you that. I’ve been tempted to look people up. It’s kind of like this dream thing. Like there are times where I have a dream and old clients will come back and I wake up thinking about them and wondering how they’re doing. And, you know, I might have a moment of wanting to look them up on the Internet.

But no, I’ve never I’ve never Googled anybody have never. I’ve never tried to. I’m not even on, I just joined Instagram like literally a week ago. I’m not on Facebook. I’m not on Twitter. I would have no idea how to find people. But it’s one of those moments where they’re on my mind. And I guess I just visit them in my heart a little bit and send them some loving kindness. Wishes that I hope everything is well. And yeah. But we never necessarily know the end of the story. And I guess, technically the end of the story doesn’t come until you’re dead, I suppose. So nobody will know the end-end. But just how they’re doing.

[00:33:52]CHRIS:  That‘s true. That’s true. Ok, I want to ask you some honest questions alright? Because you’re anonymous, you’re anonymous. You ever, I would have to imagine is there sometimes, and I know this is harsh, but like, are there the opposite ones where you’re like meeting with someone and you’re like this is not a great match? Like if this was Tinder, I would not have swiped right on this interaction.

[00:34:23] CALLER: Well, certainly there are clients that we connect with more than others. I think one of the most important parts of therapy is that connection, the rapport that you can build. And so one thing that I would say to people who are thinking about going into therapy is that, you know, you might have to try a couple before you find a good match. It’s really important to have a good match. The health care system that I work in. It doesn’t necessarily work that way. I work with the people who get assigned to me. And there are definitely people who come across as a little bit abrasive and prickly. But even for those folks, if, really you’re just looking for the humanity, right? There’s a reason they’re abrasive and they’re prickly. I just got to get to the place of where they’re coming from. And once you can connect to their humanity, it’s, even the hardest ones are fun to work with. Eventually, they may or may not stick depending upon how they feel about me. But yeah, they’re certainly clients that that stay with me a bit more than other ones. But I’ve never disliked working with somebody. If I really dislike somebody and it’s not a good match. I shouldn’t waste their time. I want to get them to a therapist that’s gonna be a better match.

[00:35:35] CHRIS:  Well handled answer, my friend. You ever fall asleep? You ever doze off? 

[00:35:45] CALLER:  No, I have never fallen asleep and I can’t imagine. I’ve heard of these stories where they would, where it happens. And I actually part of the work that I do is I teach the skill of validation, like how do we validate people? How do we validate ourselves? And the very first level of validation, technically, it’s like just be present with somebody. But I call it stay awake. Don’t fall asleep on important people to you. People want to be heard right? They want to be seen. They want to be heard. They want to feel important. And if you’re falling asleep on them, that is like the base level of invalidation. Don’t do that. So I’ve never I’ve never had that happen.

[00:36:25] CHRIS: Have you ever had to step out mid session because you had to pee or poo?

[00:36:32] CALLER: I have, 

[00:36:33] CHRIS: you have? and what do you say?

[00:36:36] CALLER:  I just say, you know what? This is the hour after lunch, I drink a lot of water. Give me five minutes, I have to run to the bathroom. I’m just honest about it. Like, I don’t think people like being lied to when you can’t kind of pretend or avoid your way out of it. So if I’m asking them to show up really authentically and honestly, I have to do the same.

[00:36:55] CHRIS: Yet another, perfect, succinct and clearly well thought out answer.

[00:37:04] CALLER: Mm hmm. Like I said, we’re people, too. So if we gotta pee, gotta pee, you gotta go otherwise you sit there uncomfortable and not being able to concentrate on what they’re saying.

[00:37:14] CHRIS: Do you stop the clock on that? Do you go no okay, you get, you get four extra minutes.

[00:37:22] CALLER: I guess I always just run an hour long session, so I usually do longer than the 15 minute session anyway.

[00:37:28] CHRIS: So even if, so, if you, if you pee though, do they get a, do they get sixty five minutes because you took that five minutes.

[00:37:37] CALLER: I suppose they would, I have never, I guess I don’t really watch the clock in that way. 

[00:37:42] CHRIS: That’s fair. Not a clock watcher. I love it. Okay, now what else? Oh, okay. Oh. Back to a little bit of a serious one. You had mentioned at the top of the call that you really loved that in a prior call, a type of therapy was brought up that I think is a little bit more of a recent development that you were excited to hear. Are there other, are there, are there developments in therapy right now, are there things happening or on their way towards happening that you’re particularly excited about because you believe in them as treatments? Are there types of therapy that you would recommend out there for people? Are there things, you know, in clinical trials that you’re like, all right, we might have that.

[00:38:24] CALLER: Yes. So that the color that we’re mentioning, the one who mentioned the EMDR eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, it’s a treatment for trauma. It’s an exposure based treatment. There is evidence behind it that it works. The other two exposure based treatments for prostraumatic stress disorder are prolonged exposure therapy and cognitive processing therapy. So all three of those have very strong evidence base behind them. They’re shown to be very effective. They’re short term treatments. They can provide a lot of relief for people. So those are the big ones for PTSD. I see a lot of people with insomnia problems. So I do cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, which is kind of the gold standard treatment.

[00:39:07] CHRIS:  Love CBT. Love it. 

[00:39:10] CALLER: Yeah, so some of it is kind of that second wave therapy that came out in the 60s and the 70s. And rather than taking a whole bunch of sleeping meds that people can get in and get some cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, that can solve your problems real fast if you do the homework. That’s some of the most rewarding work that I do. Yes, cognitive behavioral therapy has evidence base behind it. More recently, there is what’s called the third wave. Behavioral therapies like acceptance and commitment therapy has been shown effective for many different things like depression and anxiety. I know before we were talking about borderline personality disorder. There’s a really effective gold standard treatment for that dialectical behavior therapy, which can relieve a lot of suffering for people and help them live a better quality of life. So yeah, there are a lot of really good evidence based treatments out there for mental health. And if you feel like you’re all alone with it or there’s nothing that can help you, please reach out for help. You don’t have to go through it alone and you can actually really, really build a life worth living. Don’t wait. I’ve worked with, I work with a broad range of people, too. And oftentimes when I’m working with my old my older folks, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s, will say something like, I wish I would have come in when I was 20, why did I wait so long? So at any age, please go in and get help. There’s a lot of really good evidence base out there.

[00:40:33] CHRIS: That is something that I’m so happy you underlined. And can I say, you underline that from the professional side, from the patient side. I want to say I have very few regrets in my life. I have gone on record before and said that probably the biggest one is that I knew I needed help and I spent years feeling like there was something bad about that. I probably under, I look back at it and realize that I had a real suspicion that something was a little bit off when I was around 13 years old and I did not get therapy at times 22, and I put myself through so much pain and I put myself in so much danger in those years. And when I got to therapy, it was not easy. But I look back and realize not only was it less intimidating than I thought, not only were people more accepting of it than I thought, but it also, one of the underrated things, it opened up a lot of conversations in my life amongst my family and friends where I realized, oh, I have always had more of a safety net than I realized, because now that the cat’s out of the bag and I’m going and seeing someone publicly about this and I’m not hiding it all the time, there is more support than I thought. Less judgment and more support than I thought from the outside. That was a very important thing as well.

[00:41:57] CALLER: Yeah. And there are really big campaigns these days to make it OK that to talk about mental health struggles, to talk about lived experiences. And so I do think the tide is shifting regarding talking about mental health. And I think a lot, not always, but a lot of these struggles do emerge in our teenage years. Young adulthood is where people often will have their first episode of depression or their first episode of psychosis or whatever it might be. And, you know, being a teenager, it’s real hard. I would never, I would never go backwards. I much prefer my 30s to any other decade ever. And it’s so hard and we’re feeling like we’re so awkward and nobody understands. And if we’re also adding on anxiety or we’re adding on depression or we’re adding on psychosis or adding on an eating disorder or whatever else it might be. It can be really, really hard to reach out and say hey I’m struggling. So my hope is just like things are changing regarding talking about gender and talking about actuality, things are changing about talking about mental health. And I have great hope for younger generations to reach out and get the help they needed early if they can.

[00:43:03] CHRIS: Are you seeing a shift in that? When people reach out for the first time, because I know I put out career suicide in 2016. And one thing that makes me feel really good is actually feel like if it came out now, it probably wouldn’t have the same impact. I don’t think even just three years later, the idea of a guy standing up and saying, here’s the naked truth about my experience with therapy backwards and forwards that felt that got a lot of press in 2016. I don’t know if it gets the same press today and I’m happy about that.

 Have you noticed throughout your time in practice, are people feeling more okay about walking through the door for the first time?

[00:43:40] CALLER:  More okay. I still think it’s hard. It’s really, really hard to walk through the door and ask for professional help. I work with a lot of men and I think especially for socialized masculinity, feeling like I should’ve been able to handle this by myself or, you know, I was taught to just, you know, plod through and just do this and so coming in and asking for help I still I think is really, really hard and therapy isn’t easy. Like you said, if therapy feels easy then you’re not with the right therapist, go for a different one. It’s really hard. It takes you to uncomfortable and unfamiliar places. So I still think it’s hard to ask for help. I think in the conversation that people are having and I can only speak from my own experience, but I was at a wedding probably a month or two months ago and we were standing around afterwards. I’m kind of at the reception and there was, there was somebody who was openly talking about how he had recently been in and getting some intensive mental health support. And one of his other friends was like, I’m so happy for you. Like, I just went to see my doc. and they doubled my Lexapro and I’m feeling great. And I was just standing there as as a friend and also a psychologist saying, whoa, like this is this is how things are changing where people and men especially are openly talking about, hey, yeah, I know. I have, I have professional folks who are in my corner and helping me out with whatever it is that I’m dealing with. And I think that is only going to be helpful for them as people that also if they’re parenting right, rather than saying, oh, this is a family, we don’t talk about it, learning how to talk about emotion. Most of us don’t grow up in a family system where we have somebody saying, hey, this is your feeling and this is what this feeling is telling you and what do you want to do with it? And so to have adults now talking about it, I think is gonna be so great for the kids coming up, too.

[00:45:22] CHRIS: Yeah, I was one of my great fears. Like you said, the socialized masculinity. I grew up in blue collar New Jersey. I felt like man. I would be letting my dad down if I go to therapy. And I’ll tell you not to speak for my dad. We’ve talked about it a little bit and I think it was weird for him. I think he was a little confused by it. He’s a strong guy. He’s been through a decent amount of stuff that he really, I never heard him complain. But then over the course of my life, I’ve realized my dad has had to step up and deal with some big things in his life. And. But I tell you, one of, I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this on the show before if I have, apologies to the listener but This American Life did a thing with me where they had him ask me questions that I didn’t get the vet first and it was intense and the big one he asked was like when you were suffering, why didn’t you tell me? Because even when I did, even when the dam broke and I asked for help, I went to my mom, I felt more comfortable, I said, well, I was scared I was gonna let you down. And honestly, I was. I was a little scared that you wouldn’t know what to do and I realize I think that would it terrified me because my dad always knows what to do. And I said to him, those two things letting me down and that you wouldn’t know what to do. Like, I felt like it would disappoint you and burden you. And one of, one of the things that anyone has ever said to me in my life that has meant the most, my dad goes, I wouldn’t have known what to do. And initially when he said that, you can imagine it was like every teenage fear of mine bubbled, like vomited back. It was like my nerve endings were like shaking. And he goes, I wouldn’t have known what to do, but I would have run through a wall to find the person who did. And it made me realize how much time I wasted suffering because I underestimated my father. It was tough.

[00:47:44] CALLER: And I think as parents, the parents that I work with, they would do anything for their kids, anything for their kids. And they don’t have all the answers. I mean, I think you’ve talked before about how one of your moments of waking your mom up in the middle of the night at that point where you just couldn’t manage on your own anymore. And. Yeah, absolutely. It’s scary for a parent. And what an opportunity to show your kiddo how much you care, too. And parents aren’t expected to know how to fix everything. Right? When we’re kids, we think that they’re invincible and know everything. But, you know, using a support system, knowing that people care and love about you and that they’re with you through it, it can be so, so important for even relieving some initial suffering. So you don’t feel like your soul along with it anymore.

[00:48:31] CHRIS: Yeah. And I learned from my dad on that. And I tell you, if Cal ever comes to me, that’s my new baby. If he ever comes to me down the line, he’s like, I’m depressed. I’m going to go, okay, let’s get to work. Anything he says to me, anything he says, he can tell me anything. And I’m going to go, that is, uh, that’s great that that’s who you are. He tells me about his sexuality, Kris Jenner, Anything. I just can’t imagine. I’m so happy that I’m in the middle of this shift where I get to just look at him and go, that’s great. Even the things that maybe I don’t understand the most. That’s not what’s important. That’s great. Let’s figure it out. Let’s figure out. And that my parents did give me that at the end of the day.

[00:49:16] CALLER: It just being there. 

[00:49:18] CHRIS: I’ve been reading a lot that they’re talking about MDMA and mushrooms coming into play. How are you feeling about this?

[00:49:27] CHRIS: (music transition) Let’s go ahead and pause, because that section I want to underline it means a lot to me. Parents are ready to help, kids scare your parents you won’t scare them as bad as you think, you’re at their… And guess what, when we get back, we’re talking about MDMA. How’s that for a cliffhanger? Meantime, check out our advertisers and use the promo codes.

[AD BREAK]

[00:52:35] CHRIS: I’ve been reading a lot that they’re talking about MDMA and mushrooms coming into play. How are you feeling about this?

[00:52:42] CALLER: Yeah. 

[00:52:34] CHRIS: Oh, that. I like that. That was a revealing. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think I’ve heard that exact tone of voice, all that. You’ve been very professional up until now and that one you went, “Yeah”.

[00:52:57] CALLER: So the health care organization that I work in has recently been looking at ketamine and depression, using it for depression. And I’m not I’m not a researcher, I’m a clinician. So I just kind of hear what other folks and in my health care system are doing. I’m not even sure what the results are and where they where they landed with it or if the trial is still going on.  But there’s more and more folks looking at using ketamine, MDMA. I read one of the best books that I read last year was Michael Pollan, How to Change Your Mind. I think that’s what it’s called. Don’t hold me to that. Michael Pollan’s new book. It’ss looking at psilocybin and mushrooms and and how there is more and more research coming out about how great they can be used for terminally ill folks and end of life in terms of managing death anxiety and things like that. And so I am totally open to exploring new avenues for for relieving people suffering. I want it to be a good evidence base. I don’t want us to just suddenly start throwing whether they’re prescription drugs, legal prescriptions or illegal drugs or whatever it is, throwing things that people say here, take this, because we see that a lot to what people are like, you know, taking marijuana because it’s the only thing that helps. And I’m like, oh, the evidence shows that that makes it worse, please don’t. But if there’s research trials, and we’re seeing maybe how some of these substances could be used in the appropriate situation for the appropriate presenting problem. That is awesome. The mental health field is always evolving and it is still a big giant mystery for many people. The brain is real complicated. And so I have hope that even during the course of my my career and I’m a pretty young professional, that there might be really new, neat, interesting things that come out.

[00:54:49] CHRIS: Love it. That’s the pro answer. I love it. OK. Another question. Mere minutes before we came into this studio. Our beloved producer, Jarred O’Connor, revealed to me that his cat is on Prozac, this blew my mind. 

[00:54:11] CALLER: My cat was on Prozac for a little while

 [00:55:13] CHRIS:Really? Do you treat patients in the feline world or are you exclusively human?

[00:55:20] CALLER: I am definitely in the human realm. My cat is no longer on Prozac, I think. I don’t think it did anything. But yes, my husband and I, he’s also in the mental health field. He’s a, he’s a psychologist as well. We do sit around a diagnosis our cats.

[00:55:33] CHRIS: That’s amazing.

[00:55:38] CALLER: Yeah. There are so many, people are giving melatonin to their animals. People are giving Prozac to their animals. I have no idea of that world. But no, I was that, I was a consumer of that for a little bit of time. And it didn’t seem to do any good for my for my sick or feline at home.

[00:55:54] CHRIS: Jared says that it’s been a world of change in his relationship with his cat. This cat has really taken to the process. I’m going to ask you something that’s none of my business. You mentioned your husband, also a mental health professional. If you are having, if you are planning on having kids someday. Personal choice. But if you are, I would have to imagine that the a child of two mental health professionals might live a very unique experience. Are you mindful of this?

[00:56:28] CALLER:  We are mindful of that, and it was part of the discussion when we were talking about having kids we’ve gone on back and forth on it. We’ve been together over a decade now and when we first got together, we didn’t want kids. We were in graduate school focused on getting our degrees and everything like that. And then a handful of years ago, we, as our all of our friend started having kids, we started talking about it. And would we be good parents and what do we have the emotional bandwidth for? Then we talked about, you know, biological kids or adopting kids or whatever it might be. But we have landed back on me, given the work that we do and given how invested we are in the work that we do and how we really do feel like this is easy. This is our vacation and this is where meaning and purpose come from. We have decided not to have kids. So, yes, I think you would be very hard to have two mental health providers as a child. I think we could be pretty good parents. we’re pretty good partners. Given our backgrounds. But yes, that would be a challenge in its own right. And I’m sure there are plenty of people out in the world who have two mental health provider, actually, we have friends who are all mental health providers and they have kids. We’ll see how they turn out.

[00:57:43] CHRIS: I want to say to hearing you say that that you have considered having kids, but you you both feel like you have a calling to the work first. That is a level of selflessness that I want to just make sure I let you know.  I notice it and I appreciate it and it kind of quietly blows me away and I want to make sure the listeners hear that they you.

That’s a big life choice that you’re you know, you’re putting your desire to help other people first. And that’s that’s huge.

[00:58:11] CALLER:  It fits well for us, none, neither of us growing up had a calling to be a parent. I certainly have colleagues who do. And if both of us really wanted kids, I’m sure we would find a way to have that in our lives and make it work. But given our meaning and purpose comes from the work that we do and the people that we get to see. I don’t know. I feel like those those needs of ours are being met the way that we can show up front for people and care for them in a different kind of way.

[00:58:45] CHRIS: I’m going to go ahead and ask you a question that is probably inappropriate and that you’ll probably go, yeah, well, we can’t do that, your instinct that we can’t do that was correct, Gethard. You’ve been listening to this show from the beginning, I’ve been very open about who I am, where my head’s at, some things that I’ve gone through in the past. Do you ever listen to this and find your professional instincts kicking in as far as my diagnosis?

[00:59:22] CALLER:  I guess I never really considered it before. You know, when you talk about the medications, I know what those medications are. And, you know, only you have your lived experiences and you and your providers are working on that. I think it’s really great that you recognize that there is an issue and you want it to go in and get help. I’ve never really, it’s kind of like when I run into people out in the world and they figure out that I’m a psychologist and they’re like, oh, my gosh, are you analyzing me? Are you diagnosing me? No, I just, I’m just showing up right now. So one thing, I love your show is that you’re just showing up as a human being, talking to other human beings. And I just thoroughly enjoy listening to the stories.

[01:00:00] CHRIS: You’re good. You’re good. You are. You more than any other. 

[01:00:02] CALLER: It’s the truth. 

[01:00:04] CHRIS: It is but I’ll tell you what. We all know it. I am, I have gotten over the three years I’ve done this show, I’ve gotten very good at times, not always, I’ve gotten very good, though, at putting some things out there to get the emotions going. I can’t get you. You keep evading my traps. I can’t, I couldn’t get you to just go. Yeah. You’re bipolar, too. Or your dislymic. Is it pronounced dislymeic or dislymic?

[01:00:30] CALLER:  It’s just used to be dislymic disorder and the new diagnosis, the new DSM and its persistent depressive disorder. That’s what it’s called now.

[01:00:39] CHRIS: That’s probably, I’ve gotten both over time. I’ve got some doctors telling me one, I’ve gotten some doctors the other. All I know is a take, I keep it in my every morning, I get out of the shower, fix my hair, take my Wellbutrin, take my Lamictal, put my deodorant on and I just pray I have a good day so I don’t care about the day.

[01:01:00] CALLER: That’s all I can do. And you know, even when I wake up in the morning, I’m like, all right, don’t know what this day is going to come with it, but let’s not be an asshole. Let’s just do what we can do and be a decent of a human being as you can be. 

[01:01:16] CHRIS: I love that.What a good way to put it. What a good thing for all of us to aspire to. You start the day, you look in the mirror, you take a deep breath and you just go. Try not to be an asshole today. What a good way to start the day. I’m going to start doing that. That’s going to be part of my daily routine.

[01:01:34] CALLER:  The world needs less assholes. So if we can all do to work on that a little bit, extend a little bit of generosity and gratitude. I think we could go a long way.

[01:01:43] CHRIS:  The world would be a better place if every single person woke up and just quietly told themselves, not today, don’t be an asshole today.

[01:01:54] CALLER: Maybe tomorrow. That can be something future Christian decides, but not yet.

[01:01:57] CHRIS: Be a little more chill at work. If you get stuck in traffic, maybe don’t start blowing your top. Maybe when you’re dealing with people in the service industry slow down, thank them genuinely because their lives are a grind. Don’t be an asshole, just don’t.

[01:02:14] CALLER:  There’s a reason. There’s a reason why we’re called human beings, not human doings. We need to, it’d better if we did more being in our life rather than always rushing to do.

[01:02:27]CHRIS:  Damn, when you drop that bomb on your patients, they must just sit there and nod their heads and feel like their lives just changed.

[01:02:34] CALLER:  For some of them, I think, yeah, it really resonates.

[01:02:38] CHRIS: It’s resonated with me and I’m a human being, I’m not a human doing. Can I ask you a philosophical question?

[01:02:47] CALLER: Sure. 

[01:02:56] CHRIS: There was a stretch. With my therapy. Where I told my doctor, and I did not do this, but I told her that, it was probably a year or two into my relationship with my current doctor, I said, I’m just feeling like I need to quit my jobs and go work for Habitat for Humanity or something like that. And I didn’t do it.  But she did tell me, she goes, this is a very common sign. You’ve turned a corner. Where your desire, we’ve spent like a year or so talking about how to fix you, and now you have turned a corner where you’re starting to get optimistic about your ability to help the world. It was cool to hear, it was very cool and eye opening to hear. In your opinion? Is it a higher priority to help yourself or to help the world around you?

[01:03:42] CALLER: I think in order to actually show up and help the world around you, you have to help yourself. Like you have to be as healthy as you can be, to show up in your community. And that doesn’t mean you have to be perfect. But if you’re not taking care of yourself. It’s going to be harder. Otherwise, you just end up expending all of your energy and so especially when, and I totally agree with your therapist. Like the opposite of depression is enjoy the opposite of depression and vitality. Like when we feel like we want to be out in the world and contributing and, and doing something that gives us a sense of meaning and purpose, whatever that might be. That is a really good sign. That is a really good sign, because it means that you’ve kind of crawled out of your own hole of just being so focused on yourself and your own struggles and you’re ready to connect and be part of your community. That’s a really lovely thing. But to be effective at that, to really be able to show up and be present taking care of yourself is really, really important.

[01:04:42] CHRIS:  So it’s almost like you need to have some selfishness. And ideally, you have someone like you in the world to help guide that selfishness in a productive way. And then when the selfishness has had its healing effects, you look towards selflessness.

[01:04:56] CALLER: Yeah, I think for a lot of people, that’s really important. Really, really important. Love and work, I think are two very important things, not necessarily work for income, but work like getting up and putting your pants on and feeling like you’re a contributing member of your community in whatever way that is. And then love, feeling connected, feeling a sense of belonging, not feeling alone in the world. You put those two things together and somebody has experience and we can you feel like you can take on the world. That’s why I try to get people to 

[01:05:15] CHRIS: That’s  part of why I like this show, because I tell you, I’ve expressed on this show before. I’m a comedian in my heart. I’m far funnier than this show which show off. And it’s, it’s my most successful thing and I’m insecure about that. But then I think about some of the ways that people have told me that it’s helped them. And I go, who the fuck am I to doubt that, because of my own ego? Maybe there’s a bigger purpose for this thing, and it’s not up to me to doubt that or undercut that or sabotage it like I would have in my 20s.

[01:06:00] CALLER: Yeah, I sure hope that you can hear that compliment because what you are doing really, really is a beautiful thing. And I think the listeners who who tune in, it really does make them feel connected to the rest of humanity. And that’s such a beautiful thing.

[01:06:18] CHRIS: Thank you for saying that. I work hard. I will, I can’t lie. The critiques and the negative shine more to me like that. I can get 10 compliments and they all are very nice, but if I get one person going, I had to unsubscribe because I hate this guy’s fucking voice, like that cuts. That cuts to the quick more than I have to remind myself to let the compliments have as much of an effect as those comments because it’s a very, very hard. Yeah, it’s hard. I think also probably relates to my depression that the sensors for. The sensors for positivity are not and it’s not as fine tuned as the ones for negativity.

[01:07:06] CALLER:  Yeah, it’s a lot easier to discount the positive than the negative. I think a lot of people experience that and I think it’s just part of you recognizing that that, that is your tendency. And so turn to be a challenging yourself to to balance it out right. To make sure that you’re also reading the the fifty, lovely things that are being said.

[01:07:26] CHRIS: I try and I hope you do the same thing because I can tell you are good at what you do. And the patients of yours are lucky to have you.

[01:07:37] CALLER: Oh, thanks. I love what I do, too, and I hope you love what you do. I hope everybody find something that they love doing.

[01:07:44] CHRIS: Yeah, it’s a nice feeling when it happens. Depression. People think depression is sadness.I have come to believe more and more that the most crippling part of depression is the loneliness. How do you feel about this?

[01:08:00] CALLER:  I would agree with that. Depression shows up in a lot of different ways, but one of the ways that depression lies to us is telling us that we’re all alone with it, that nobody can understand, that we’re helpless and hopeless and worthless. For a lot of people, the depression is just trying to get out of bed in the morning. It isn’t just the sadness. Sadness is one component of it, but the way that depression lies to us, saying that this is what it is and it’s never going to get better and nobody can understand. And you’re alone with it. That’s when people can really shift into despair.

[01:08:31] CHRIS: We have 30 seconds left. 

[01:08:32] CALLER: And that’s when 

[01:08:33] CHRIS: and that’s when? Finish it, because you’re crushing it. Finish it. What is it? And that’s when what? I have to know

[01:08:41] CALLER: And that’s despair. Get help. Get help. Do it. Get out. It’s out there. Please get help.

[01:08:49] CHRIS: Can I tell you something? We’re gonna let this one go a few seconds longer than usual because I need to tell you something genuinely. This podcast. About hundred thousand people listen to each episode. And I just want to let you know. I think there is a lot of people out there who listen to you and the head you have on your shoulders, and the things you have to say about this. And I bet there are a lot of people out there who who have resisted therapy for themselves or for their kids. And I bet you have destigmatized it a lot for people today, and that’s hugely important to me and I cannot wait. To put this one right at the top of the list of episodes that I really hope people listen to.

[01:09:42] CALLER: Oh, I’m happy to hear that, Chris. Yes, therapy can be very scary. But as a therapist, my job is to be with somebody. That’s all we can do. So please go in and get help.

[01:09:52] CHRIS: It’s out there. There’s all kinds of help. There’s, it takes different forms. It can be affected by your doctor’s personality. It can be affected by their background. It’s out there. I hope they find it and you’ve done you’ve done a world of good to let them know what a good thing, what a good thing to hear from somebody like you. I thank you so much.

[01:10:16] CALLER: Absolutely. I hope you are such a lovely day and a happy Father’s Day coming up, 

[01:10.20] CHRIS: You’re the best. You’re like the nicest person. It’s very thoughtful.

You’re cool. Thank you.

[01:10:29] CALLER:  Thank you. You’re pretty cool yourself. 

[01:10.31] CHRIS: I’m fine. Ask another chump on the subway. I’m just another chump on the subway. That’s okay. Yeah. What a fantastic experience. Thank you so much. And I hope you have a sincerely great day  

[01:10:40] CALLER: Best to you, Chris.

[MUSIC TRANSTION]

[01:10:51] CHRIS: Caller, so sincerely, I know I gushed at the end of the call, but you helped people with this one and I’m happy I got to help facilitate that. You helped me. You helped a lot of our listeners. I know that for a fact even though this hasn’t come out. What a cool thing. And you’re good. You’re a good person. I hope that in the course of being someone who helps others, that we take time to know that we need to help ourself. Thanks for calling. Thank you, Jarred O’Connell. And thank you, Harry Nelson in the booth. Thank you to Justin Lindel. You helped my life so much. Thank you, shellshag, you’re an incredible dan. Thank you for all the music. Wanna know about me when I’m going out on the road, ChrisGethard.com  that’s the website where that info comes up. If you like the show, you go to Apple podcast, rate, reviews, subscribe. Really helps so much when you do. That’s the business. We’ll see you next time.

[01:12:00] Next time on Beautiful Anonymous. Sometimes we get personal or emotional and sometimes you’re just fight. No wild animal.

[NEXT EPISODE PREVIEW]

[01:12:10] CALLER:  Last summer, last July, I went for a walk in the parents neighborhood and I was attacked by a rabid raccoon. I think you’re gonna like this.

[01:12:22] CHRIS: What? Why would I like that? 

[01:12:27] CALLER: It’s a good story. I’m going to tell you how I like crushed it. I mean, I didn’t literally crush it, but I did fight it. 

[01:12:32] CHRIS: That’s next time on Beautiful Anonymous.