May 7, 2018
Growing up in Northern England, this week’s caller became unlikely pen pals with a death row inmate in the American South. That experience, along with an unusual proximity to murder that she describes as a “family quirk”, inspired her career path.
This episode is brought to you by Brooklinen, Thomas’ English Muffins, and The Girl Who Smiled Beads.
111 — Death Row Lawyer
CHRIS [00:00:05] Hello to all the blind blues players out there, it’s Beautiful Anonymous. One hour. One phone call. No names, no holds barred.
Theme Music [00:00:14] I’d rather go one on one, I think it’d be more fun. And I’ll get to know you and you’ll get to know me.
CHRIS [00:00:29] Hello everybody. And welcome to another episode of Beautiful Anonymous. Good to talk to you again. This your friend Chris Gethard. Hope everybody’s doing well. Might notice that the tone of this intro right here different taping the episode intro at the Chris Gethard Show offices. Thanks to everybody who’ve been supporting this show Tuesday nights 11 p.m. on Tru TV. It’s a busy, an exhausting gig. It’s why I love Beautiful Anonymous so much. Laid back, thoughtful, empathetic. Think you guys have heard it in my voice the past couple weeks, how much I truly love and appreciate this gig. Where I get to talk to you guys on the phone and then a whole bunch other people listen and analyze. It’s really fun. Last week’s episode we had the virtual dominatrix. This was someone who was working as a sex worker. But in in sort of these like hidden online worlds that opened up all sorts of thoughts about what sex work actually is that I hadn’t thought of that. That one got a big reaction online, I’d tell you. Beautiful Anonymous the community on Facebook. Close to 30000 to 27000 members, something like that join up today. It’s really fun. People discuss stuff. It’s a good time. A lot of people have strong opinions on that. Here’s one that I liked from Jennifer. This call reminded me of how lonely people can be. The caller clearly has a high emotional IQ and knows how to create a human connection that her clients have difficulty finding elsewhere. Yes, the connect the connection started with fetishism, but her non-judgmental approach allows her clients to get what they are really looking for emotional support. She helps people feel seen. I think that kind of sums it up, kind of sums up the type of work that that caller was doing. But I tell you, when I read that, yeah, you know, the caller has a high emotional IQ and knows how to create a human connection that her clients have difficulty finding elsewhere. I feel like that could describe me and the listeners of this show. Who knows? This is like a platonic. Maybe I’m doing like modern day platonic, the platonic version of her sex work here. Beautiful Anonymous. Who knows? I don’t know. We got a we I got some dates coming up. I’m doing a whole bunch of stand up this summer. It’s coming up soon. In June, Chrisgeth.com lists all the cities, all the links to buy tickets. I really would love to meet you guys. One of the best things about going on the road, meeting the Beautiful Anonymous fans face to face. Now, this week’s episode, this one I thought was so cool. Caller. Just has a different life than me, man. And I bet a lot of people say that, first of all, grew up in a different country. That’s always fascinating to me. Lives in America now. So I get to sort of say, hey, as someone who didn’t grow up here and now lives here and is a very sort of specific region of this country, what do you think of that? But more importantly, you’ll see that the omnipresent thing here is this caller works in a field that’s just about as intense as it gets. This is someone who’s a lawyer who is in the thick of it in one of the most debated about topics in American legal thought of the past I’d say 50 years. I think that’s totally fair to say. This is someone who’s in the trenches, has strong beliefs and is trying to make a difference in a real way. But in a world where she is up close and personal with a lot of stuff that is very intense and often sad and often frustrating and heartbreaking. What a cool conversation to have. Caller thanks for calling in. Filling me in on this one because it blew my mind and I think it’s going to blow a lot of your minds. Enjoy the call.
Phone robot [00:04:07] Thank you for calling Beautiful Anonymous. A beeping noise will indicate when you are on the show with the host.
CALLER [00:04:14] Hello.
CHRIS [00:04:15] Hello?
CALLER [00:04:17] Hello.
CHRIS [00:04:18] Hi.
CALLER [00:04:19] Hi. Is that Chris?
CHRIS [00:04:21] Yes, this is Chris.
CALLER [00:04:23] Hi, Chris. Can you hear me?
CHRIS [00:04:25] I can hear you.
CALLER [00:04:27] Good. I got you on old fashioned [muffled].
CHRIS [00:04:32] An old fashioned what now? I couldn’t hear that.
CALLER [00:04:35] See that’s the test. I’m on, I’m on an oldish phone. So I have a Humphrey fax that allows me to hear you better, but I’m not sure you get to hear me better.
CHRIS [00:04:44] I hear you pretty well. I’ll just make some gentle jokes if it gets out of range of your mouth and we’ll just adjust it.
CALLER [00:04:52] OK. How are you?
CHRIS [00:04:55] I’m good. How are you?
CALLER [00:04:57] Are you just repeating what I say?
CHRIS [00:04:59] No, not at all. I’m just trying to have a normal conversation, like a human being.
CALLER [00:05:04] I said I said, how are you? Are you doing well?
CHRIS [00:05:08] How am I doing? Am I doing well? I tell you, I am. We’re recording this on a week where I am on hiatus from my TV show, which means that I’m, you know, making a TV show’s a pressure cooker. Can’t complain. Good life. But I get a week off and after this call is when my vacation begins, get like five or six days off. So I’m feeling pretty good.
CALLER [00:05:30] Well, I feel I’ve I’ve I’ve struck gold then I’ve got you when you’re on a high and it’s like happy hour Friday at holiday time.
CHRIS [00:05:37] And I just did some jujitsu. And that always makes me feel good even though I got my ass handed to me. That’s how that goes.
CALLER [00:05:47] I haven’t tried it. Well that’s a lie. I tried it when I was much younger. But honestly, the level that I was, I was like 21 year old woman. They put me with like a 17 year old guy because we were a good match in height and weight and all that stuff. And it was just awkward.
CHRIS [00:06:06] Yeah.
CALLER [00:06:08] So I really want to start again.
CHRIS [00:06:10] Oh, that would be great. It’s fun. I should ask. Just the obvious question out of the way. Where are you from?
CALLER [00:06:16] I am from the north west of England.
CHRIS [00:06:20] I am getting to the point where I know the northern accent that makes me proud. I thought you were from the north.
CALLER [00:06:27] Do you want to have a guess where I am in the north? Well, I’m not there right now, but.
CHRIS [00:06:32] I’ll be honest I’m ignorant of geography to the point where it would expose me as a fool.
CALLER [00:06:38] Well that’s ok I’m like the north west Manchester region. And I. I. The true Mancunian would say I’m not a Mancunian because I’m not true city girl. Because I was raised in the suburbs, though. But for I guess forgive me for Americans I just say sort of northwest of Manchester region.
CHRIS [00:06:58] Oh Manchester, so much to answer for. As they say.
CALLER [00:07:06] And they’ve got a lot of soul. It’s a beautiful city.
CHRIS [00:07:11] Indeed. I did a show up there. When was that? Last year. January 2017. I was doing shows in London. And I’ve said on the podcast, I was having a rocky time. I was in my head and I went up and did one show in Manchester and I was the best.
CALLER [00:07:29] The best? Was that really true? Not to doubt you, but you know, people like to flatter people when they know that. Which is sweet. It’s good intention.
CHRIS [00:07:36] No. I’ll tell you exactly why is this. I immediately felt a little at home because I’m from New Jersey, which has a really big chip on it’s shoulder about not being like the cool place. And I immediately got the sense oh Mancunians have the same chip on their shoulder. Same chip.
CALLER [00:07:54] No.
CHRIS [00:07:55] Oh yeah, northerners?
CALLER [00:07:57] We know we’re the coolest place.
CHRIS [00:07:59] You know you’re the coolest place, but you also scoff that London thinks they’re the coolest face.
CALLER [00:08:04] Well, I guess that is true. We do. I guess it’s kinda like when I have this conversation with people where I am now, I guess I say the equivalent is kind of like if you meet a British person and they think New York is America.
CHRIS [00:08:17] Right.
CALLER [00:08:18] You know, you kind of like want to remind them that there’s a New Jersey that’s really cool and edgy and it’s got other stuff going on. And then Chicago and San Francisco and Miami and Texas. And you need to see all these other cool places.
CHRIS [00:08:30] Yeah. Yes, indeed. I would say that’s true. Now, how are you? You ask me how I’m doing. You. You rightfully pinned me to the wall for not answering thoroughly or honestly. I feel like we’ve gone over that. So now I can ask you, how are you?
CALLER [00:08:44] I’m you know, I’m I guess I am good. I’m. I’m doing fine. I am. I guess for me, I was just. Actually, I just got in from work, I sat through crazy traffic in a city where nobody apparently can really drive very well, especially when it rains. But I’m good. I’m back. I’m home. It’s the weekend. It’s Friday. But yeah, so I am. I’m doing good. But life has its ups and downs. Well, you know about that. And definitely for people who’ve been on your on your podcast, certainly know that. Which, by the way, I should say and I know everyone says it, but, you know, I’m relatively new to the podcast, but I have very much enjoyed the journey. And listening to some people, it’s been amazing.
CHRIS [00:09:37] Well, that’s awful nice of you. And I’m very, very happy that I get to do this. It’s the best gig ever. This, there could not be a more laid back, more fun gig than just talking to people on the phone.
CALLER [00:09:50] I know, I’m like, super envious of you. It is a great gig. What a wonderful concept. So, yeah. Beautiful. Anonymous. I guess I’ll say this, like, you know, one of the things I was thinking about was all TV. Right? But all there’s been a lot of random people in my life over the last couple of years. I was thinking about them like obviously they’re not anonymous to me, but they are definitely beautiful. And they’ve been there when they haven’t known me at all or very well and picks me up, you know, like there’s lots of little special beautiful moments in life that actually are the tiny, insignificant things. So, yeah, I guess that’s one of the things to talk about. And then one of the things I’ve been reflecting on recently.
CHRIS [00:10:42] All right. Well, I’m all ears.
CALLER [00:10:45] You’re all ears? oK. Shall I tell you about, I’ll I’ll start, I guess, with my I guess why I’m here. And I am in America.
CHRIS [00:10:58] Oh, you are?
CALLER [00:10:59] Yes, I am. I am from the UK, but living in America now. And I’ve been here for a couple of years now. And I came I came for work. Really? I work on a legal project, and I guess. Well, yeah, I guess the easiest way to explain it is I’m a lawyer in the UK and I came over here to join other lawyers in working on death penalty cases in particular trying to stop the death penalty or at least I guess stop people dying, basically.
CHRIS [00:11:47] Wow so are you focused on on wrongful convictions or are you trying to actively get things run up to the Supreme Court to try to abolish the death penalty in general?
CALLER [00:11:56] I mean, both and all of those certainly wrongful convictions we do not like. But it’s not all about that. It’s not all about innocence. It’s about stopping the government, killing it’s people. Really.
CHRIS [00:12:12] Yeah.
CALLER [00:12:13] No matter what they’ve done, I’m living where I live. You know, I I’ll say I know there’s a broad spectrum of views and politics all related to the death penalty. And that’s been a part of my journey, especially when I’ve moved from a predominantly anti-death penalty place to a place where perhaps I don’t want to shout too loudly what I do at the local bar. You know. So. Yeah. So I guess I guess I’m a Brit living in the south, learning the ways of the south, the good and the bad, and adjusting to doing this very particular type of work that can be can be very difficult. And it’s definitely a fight at times and unpopular amongst some people.
CHRIS [00:13:06] Now. I’m again, an ignorant person. I’ll just ask the questions for anybody else who might also be wondering, does the UK, the UK does not have the death penalty, correct?
CALLER [00:13:18] No. No, we don’t have the death penalty. We used to have the death penalty, but not anymore.
CHRIS [00:13:23] How how long ago was it eliminated?
CALLER [00:13:26] Well, the last executions were back in the sixties and it became, I guess, de facto abolitionists, I guess officially in terms of the law, it left our box late nineties, maybe early 2000s, maybe even. But really, it was long gone before. Well, before I was born.
CHRIS [00:13:46] Yeah. Yeah. Which is I guess. You know, I guess we talk about sort of bar talk, but that’s a really strange thing when people hear my accent and then they’re like you do. Well, what do you do in particular? I always start general, as we begin to talk to see whether it’s going to go down well and how much I should expose and you know, whether there’s a state attorney behind me or a police officer or somebody who’s very different minded or, you know, somebody who’s been affected by by similar crimes whose maybe passionately for the death penalty because obviously I don’t want to offend anybody. But there is a I guess from certainly from just little old me, British way, there’s definitely a definitely a problem here in America in terms of the death penalty and how it’s applied.
CHRIS [00:14:38] Yeah. We’re one of the only, we’re one of the only advanced countries that still has it, let alone as predominantly as we do. Correct?
CALLER [00:14:46] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And until recently you guys were well you were up there, you were the fifth top executioner. I think you’ve dropped recently in the last couple of years, a couple of spots, but you were definitely up there behind China and Iran and Pakistan. And yeah, you had you were holding interesting company, shall we say. In the stats in terms of the World complex of death penalty.
CHRIS [00:15:17] Yeah, I love my country. I tell you. I love my country to death. But I do think sometimes we. We may be, as Americans have a little bit of a problem where we buy into the narrative and then don’t necessarily look beyond ourselves to where the bar is actually set, I like to say we’re the greatest place in the world. And then you list some of the countries that are the ones we’re in the mix with and you’re like, well, those are the countries we talk the most shit about.
CALLER [00:15:45] Well, yes, it is definitely true. And often when I’m talking to people about it that’s one of the things they find most interesting to learn that they are sort of up there with with China and Iran and countries that we know have very poor human rights records. But I will say this. I definitely don’t want you or anyone to think that I do not love America. I mean, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t be able to be here and live here and, you know, function in my everyday personal life without without loving, loving that. But it’s definitely been an adjustment. And one of the beautiful things about America is that there’s definitely you guys have this vibe and you feel it when you when you arrive and you get off the plane. There is this there is the vibe which goes back to people, sort of the stereotype of the American dream and the land of the free. You come with your ideas and you can do anything. You know, you can make a podcast, random people coming in and telling your stories. You can create business. So it is definitely it’s infectious. Like, I feel that. And that’s definitely one of the best things about about your country.
CHRIS [00:16:58] That’s nice to hear. And I’ll say, as an American especially, I think a lot of us feel like things have gone really haywire the past couple years. No matter where you’re at on the political spectrum, it seems like everybody agrees things are really getting heated and tense. But it is still a country where it’s like, you know, when I think about when I leave the country and I come back, I’m like, we just have some breathing room here. We give each other breathing room to go try. Like, if you want to fall on your face and waste all your money trying to do something, you can go try it, you can go try it. And I like that. Now, do you feel,
CALLER [00:17:32] Yeah and I think if you fail, you guys kind of almost respect that. It’s like, okay, you tried you did it. You had a go. I love writing. What’s next?
CHRIS [00:17:41] Big fan of failure over here. Now do you feel like you often need to give the I love America caveat being that Americans don’t always love people with British accents airing out their opinions on American policy?
CALLER [00:17:54] Yeah, you know it’s one of those. I’ve had to give a few presentations and things on what I’m doing right now to other lawyers. You know, you can have that sort of pin drop and the tension when I get up and I begin to speak and people realize it’s a British woman telling us how to do things in this country. Like go home, you know the history between countries. What are you doing? You weird colonial.
CHRIS [00:18:22] I love it. I love it. That’s the thing you guys have to deal with, huh? I’ll say too I’ll tell you. I just went on. This is sidetrack. We’ll talk a lot because it’s fascinating your life. I just went on a vacation in Sri Lanka, which was, you know, a British colony for many, many years known as Ceylan back then. And there’s almost no Americans who who vacation there, who holiday there. There was a lot of British. And I was like this kind of weird man, British. Do British people often go on vacation in former colonies? Cause I’m like, is this is a part of this psychologically to kind of like feel like what that was like. But that’s just me projecting.
CALLER [00:19:01] I I don’t know whether it’s that they pick pick the old colonies. I think there’s just more natural. I guess it’s the natural leftovers and, you know, the watered down brick that they, for whatever reason, all children, all the generations. I mean, for example, my you know, my mom and dad used to travel a lot to India, but that’s because our grandparents were born there. You know, and that’s crazy. Sometimes when you think about it. It’s funny. I think the dynamics now is that the younger generations tried to be as respectful as they can. But there is there is a colonial, a horrible shadow. And yeah it’s funny, I guess a lot of I don’t know what the parallel would be for America. I mean, I mean, that’s certainly a huge topic of debate. And race plays a massive part in my work as well. But obviously with Black Lives Matter movement and everything that’s happening now. And did you see there’s been a lot of pieces on Brian Stevenson’s museum that just opened in Alabama, which is all about memorializing slavery and lynching and forcing different jurisdictions in the U.S. to, I guess, take accountability for that. And the way they do that is accept a column that they will erect in that home county or whatever. And then when you go to the museum, you get to see who takes accountability by the number of columns. So I guess it’s kind of like the future generations tryna take responsibility for the history and do that in a respectful way, but also still live their lives and enjoy the world.
CHRIS [00:20:46] It’s intense stuff. You’re a super smart person. You’re super eloquent person. That was beautiful.
CALLER [00:20:54] Well I hope I’m not boring. That’s one of the things. Oh, my god am I going to be boring?
CHRIS [00:20:56] No, not at all.
CALLER [00:21:00] I guess that’s human reaction well you know, we’re just going to go with it. Well, whatever it is, I’m going with the flow recently that’s what I’ve sort of decided to do in my life.
CHRIS [00:21:11] That’s rad. I’m all for that. But you’re not boring at all. You’re someone who traveled to a different country to try to take down an archaic law and is in the thick of it, that that’s not boring. So how did how does one get into this?
CHRIS [00:21:27] The Origin story. It’s coming up. Everybody loves an origin story, right? Everybody. You’re gonna have to wait to hear that, though, because we got some ads. Back after this with more phone call.
[00:21:52] [AD BREAK]
CHRIS [00:24:29] Thanks again to all of our advertisers. Now let’s get back to the phone call.
CHRIS [00:24:34] So how did how does one get into this?
CALLER [00:24:38] Well I mean. Well, I can tell you how I did, I was I was 13 years old and I watched a documentary with my sister. She was watching me whilst my parents were out of town. And it was about the death penalty. And I believe it was a show called 14 Days in May. And the BBC in the eighties went into parchment, which is a prison in Mississippi. And they filmed the last 14 days of this guy’s life. Edward L. Johnson. And I watched that. And I guess sort of at the end of the show, though, is this pop up like, what can you do about this? At the time, some British people had started this letter writing to people on death row. Be like a lifeline to somebody who has no one else. And be a pen friend, basically. And so I did that. And yeah, that’s how it all began. I began to write to somebody.
CHRIS [00:25:40] Wow when you were 13?
CALLER [00:25:42] Yes. I mean, yes, although lifeline’s wouldn’t let 13 year old write at the time. So I got my sister to, like, sign up and be a member. That we both wrote at the time. But yeah, I was. Yeah. I know that sounds strange, right? I’ve often said to my mom was like, hey, if I happen to have children and my 13 year old daughter came to me and said she’s going to start writing to somebody on death row, I would be like, no.
CHRIS [00:26:08] Yeah. What kind of things does a 13 year old tell a death row prisoner and what, what is coming back as well?
CALLER [00:26:18] Well, I you know, I think if even when I was 13, I think like I found the, I guess I found the right words, I think it probably was really basic, like, hello, my name is. I am so many years old. My nickname is my favorite color is what’s yours? You know. How how’s your day going? This is what I’ve done today. You know, and the kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, one of the crazy things as well is that as years later, I as I get into this work and I’m I’m doing stuff, I meet somebody who used to be incarcerated in the same place that my pen friend was. He’s now out. He was found innocent. And we are traveling in the U.K. for him to give a talk in Manchester. And I just said to him, I was like, hey, you know, do you happen to know so-and-so or so-and-so? And he’s like, what? And this must have been I think I was in my mid twenties then. And he he said to me, wait, he said to me years ago, I’ve got this weird little girl writing to me. And they had laughed and joked about how that could possibly be a bad thing for him. You know if you know, people were watching his letters because they review everything and he just had this random weird little girl writing. So perhaps that’s not the best pen friends for somebody in there to have. But I just thought it was so funny to imagine how strange it was his end as well as mine. But, you know, we did strike up a friendship. And I would almost say, oh, I say like because he’s so much older. And I was young and impressionable at the time. You know, he did influence my decisions on what I would choose to do. Like I wanted to do law. I was interested in criminal justice. I was interested in investigation and his life story of how he ended up there and all that pushed me into doing law. And then yeah. And then doing sort of death penalty work, which I mean, very fortunately like took me to Southeast Asia and the Middle East on some things, but now I’m back in America. And it just so happens that I’m in the same state as him. So, I mean, not that that’s all deliberate, but it is kind of crazy coincidental that I go through this whole career path and then I end up doing this work in the state where my pen friend is and still is because he’s still on death row, which is also crazy because he’s been there, he’s almost one of the record for the longest.
CHRIS [00:29:12] Have you visited him? Have you met him?
CALLER [00:29:15] I I haven’t. We’ve spoke about that. I guess we’re being careful on how we feel about that. And now I’m sort of a professional here. How that might be viewed with other people, but I wrote him not too long ago saying, OK, so I’ve decided I’m I’m up fo rit. We should do it. We should. I should come see you. I’m waiting to see what see what he has to say about that.
CHRIS [00:29:43] Wow. What a lot of people get inspired about something when they’re 13 and they don’t wind up actually doing it. Kudos to you. Now, can I. I want to ask. There’s so much I want to talk about. This is flying by. I can’t believe we only have 37 minutes left. I can’t believe how quick this is moving. I do want to ask here’s something that I think you’re uniquely positioned to tell me. So I think a lot of the surface level battle over the death penalty is emotional. Right? It’s people going someone committed a crime so heinous they deserve to die or it’s people go and you’d never take human life. And those are emotional arguments. What are the logical breakdowns? Because I’ve actually read a lot. I’m really fascinated by a lot of these stories. The impression I get is there’s actually like logical if not like finance, like between false convictions, between actual financial breakdowns of what happens. There’s very logical reasons to not do this. Correct?
CALLER [00:30:40] Yes. And I think I think you’re you’re right in terms of that there’s an emotional reaction and a vengeful that if people want revenge and feel that somebody who does something so heinous is waves, all of those rights and should be punished and punished badly. And obviously, if it’s a horrible, horrible murder that you should have a maximum punishment. And I think. That’s the outlook, those emotions, revenge and punish. You want to punish somebody, I think certainly here this system is less about trying to rehabilitate people. I think the view for pro-death penalty is people don’t believe that you can rehabilitate somebody who’s done something so awful. Wheras my side of the argument to that is a criminal justice system shouldn’t be based on emotion. That’s why we set up the system the way we do and have members of the jury who aren’t related to the case make decisions and try a case and why we have these rules and due process. But in terms of logical argument, yeah, a lot of people think it’s cheaper to execute somebody. It’s not here. It might have been in the UK in the sixties. But the way the system is here, I mean, my pen friend has been on death row for I think almost 35 years now. Now it’s over 35 because he was convicted and sentenced to death just before I was born. So he is. Yeah. He’s like now looking at almost thirty six, 37 years on death row and he’s not alone. You know, I think the average right now is about 17 years. And the money that the states have to put up for yes, the incarceration costs, keeping people alive, but also all of the lawyers on all of the appeals that follow. It’s not just the trial. I mean, you you have a lot of lawyers coming in on board and you have to have more investigators. And certainly in the American system, it costs you a lot more to kill someone than, for instance, you could take that money. I think there isn’t a good study right now in the state that I’m in. But California has done some and Oregon has done some and it’s shown that you’ll save millions, millions and millions of dollars. I think California was like 3.5 million. It’s lots of money and shit loads of money, which for me, I would I would take that if it was the one that [BEEP] I just said my name. Sorry.
CHRIS [00:33:33] We’ll bleep it.
CALLER [00:33:33] If it was me, yes bleep it please. Yeah. If it was me, I would take that money. Put it into school. Take that money. Put it into training police officers on mental health issues or how you deal with this scenario or giving people better equipment or I don’t know put it wherever you want it into something positive and proactive instead of ending someone’s life. And I think the the other thing for me is people talk about, you know, the right to life and the value of life. And I think there’s something kind of excuse me, like fucked up in trying to tell someone that what you did, you killed somebody, you took another’s life is wrong and unforgivable. And that means you’re a shit person forever. And this could be I don’t know, Chris. They could be you know, a lot of people think these are serial killers and these are people who are evil and you can’t fix them. And that I can definitely tell you from I have not met anybody who I think is that who I think there’s no hope. You can’t do anything with this person. And I just think if we were able to redirect some of our finances and perspective, we could we could fix that. We can’t fix people who have been killed through murder. But what we can do is is try to get people to take accountability for that. Try to stop and understand the how people get to the stage where they end up killing somebody. And the other thing sort of crazy is if you’re going to have a system like that, which I wouldn’t condone, but if we all. Let’s apply it fairly. Let’s like, I don’t know. I can tell you, for example, it’s not so long ago we were very fortunate in getting a clemency and that was lucky that never, ever happeneds. And the reason why we got clemency is because the guy involved in the murder was actually on a different floor from where the murder took place. The gangster who had ordered the hit got a life sentence. The person who was the hit man who did the shooting got a life sentence. But the guy involved in the gang on the basement floor got a death sentence, which is not like he you know, he was there part of a commission of a crime, but not the guy responsible for even killing. It’s great that we got a clemency, but there’s loads of stories like that where really they call them the word for them, non-trigger men. You know, they don’t actually do the killing. But by virtue of being part of a robbery or ect, you’re you’re kind of implicated. And honestly, the difference between those three people were lawyers, how good your lawyers were. Which is really sad.
CHRIS [00:36:28] Yeah, it’s who you can afford or who volunteers on your behalf.
CALLER [00:36:34] Yeah.
CHRIS [00:36:35] What do you say to people who say it’s a deterrent for other crimes?
CALLER [00:36:40] I point to a committee of experts that were pulled together to review. I forget the period, I don’t know 40 years worth of research in the modern era of the death penalty. And since America brought back the death penalty in the seventies and there is no evidence, there is absolutely no evidence for or against it being a deterrent. It seems to suggest it just doesn’t make a difference. And I guess for me, I would point to like I don’t know the UK or Europe or other countries that don’t quite have the same murder rate as America, who don’t have the death penalty, who punishment systems seem to be focused a little bit differently or more rehab or addressing sort of big drug program or mental health programs or better social welfare where you, cause really if you want to catch people, it’s got to be when they’re kids and you can see like there’s a textbook of death penalty cases of who ends up on death row and you can almost always see it coming. So you can nudge people off track, I guess, is what I would would say. But as for the deterrent, there’s yeah, there’s nothing there, I think that like people would love that to be but there isn’t. And it’s just not. Yeah. Let’s let’s just not kill people because we’ve just got it wrong. Yeah. And it’s definitely not worth all the money. If your business man just put it somewhere else. And I think it’s difficult because especially, you know, there’s definitely in the state where I am now, there’s been a lot of horrendous crime recently, murders. And that is emotional. And I feel personally affected. You know, when my when my friends and social circle don’t want to go dancing at the local gay club because we’re worried somebody will come in on a mass shooting. And my friends are worried about finding the right schools for their kids like that is scary. And you do want a message to send to people that you can’t do that kind of stuff. But generally, I guess I say, the messier the crime, the more hideous, horrendous, messed up, disgusting, usually the individual behind that, the bigger the hole in the head, the bigger the trauma, the bigger a more obvious reasoning that’s going to be as soon as we look at that person as to why and how they got to where they were.
CHRIS [00:39:23] Right. Right.
CALLER [00:39:27] So, yeah, I mean, I guess I went off track a little bit. But I hoped I answered some of your questions.
CHRIS [00:39:34] Yeah, absolutely. Here’s my next question. How you like in the South has a British person like the south. You hear, you hear. The South gets a bad rap. I say that as a northerner, it can get a bad rap at times.
CALLER [00:39:47] Yeah it does, but then in the UK, is in this conversation, the North gets about rap. Right. And so I feel in some ways I’m at home. But also, I’ll say this, the city I live in. Cause I’ve lived in the south before. And I’ve lived in like jackson, Mississippi. You know, like. Which is really the south. I kind of feel like I’m in a little bubble where I am. So I’m in I wouldn’t say. I’d say yeah. I mean, I would say there’s a lot of international coming through. Very transient city. There’s a Latino vibe. So it’s it’s fun. And I. I love the South for its hospitality and kindness. And in fact this is one of the things I started the conversation with. I found this bar and it took me a long time to find this bar in this city, which is effectively I was looking for the equivalent of the British pub. Right. Like my local where I can go any time and know that I’m good on my own and it’s a community. And I found it. And it’s like amazing. And it’s I don’t know if you could do like an anonymous podcast of the people in this bar, I bet it would make like a great show because we are all so different. So you have like the weird liberal British girl coming over doing this death penalty work. You’ve got the like Trump lover, gun toting, kill them all. I love hunting all day, guy. You’ve got like police officers, you’ve got judges. You’ve got, you know, guys who are illegals. You’ve got all sorts of craziness going on. But in this magical little place, we all come together. Sometimes we have awkward moments, but we all get along. And that, I swear, is the south, like that vibe.
CHRIS [00:41:41] I think that’s true. I think that. I mean, there’s certainly an Irish pub, too. I know in New York there was a bar that used to it was like half comedians, half cops every night. And I’m like you couldn’t get more different than those two cultures but but, let’s hang out. Have a drink. Have a drink. I think an America in general. I mean, all over the world. Right. People unite over drinking. That’s one of the humanity.
CALLER [00:42:04] Well, yeah, that’s true, but I definitely feel like places where the young people go and sometimes like this, the white people and the block, but here like it’s like it’s a beautiful mishmash.
CHRIS [00:42:19] What a nice thing to find.
CALLER [00:42:22] Where somehow we all have our different opinions, but some how maintain, especially in the crazy politics world now and people going to the extremes, even though we told those opinions outside the bar just for that period of time. It’s kind of dropped or there’s a respect that means you can talk. I don’t know it’s a special little place.
CHRIS [00:42:44] That’s cool to find.
CALLER [00:42:45] Yeah.
CHRIS [00:42:46] Now I want to know. I want to know. How hands on do you work with people like do you work on individuals cases? Have you had cases where, you know, like, I just Empire and Blood is a podcast just came out about a guy who was in prison for life like prison for life is pretty clear that that, though he was a bad dude, he hadn’t committed the murders that he committed, like do you work on individual cases where you see people who you believe might be innocent or like, how hands on are you?
CALLER [00:43:20] So right now, my role is I am, I do a lot of the monitoring and tracking so I’m less hands on than what I was. But generally, the team I work in, we have we do both. So I’ll do a lot of research, but then I’ll supplement, you know, the particular legal team needs some extra investigation doing or some stuff that we call mitigation, which is all about putting the face to the crime, if you like, and showing how that person got to be where they were today and essentially asking the jury and showing the jury why you should perhaps save this guy and not choose to kill him. So really. Yes, I have done that. At the moment, I’m not working any cases with me directly representing, but I’ve definitely. Yeah, been in and out of prison on the death row work. I guess I’m trying to think of a good like example for you. But go ahead.
CHRIS [00:44:19] No, I mean I will ask the hard questions. Say like so have you worked on have you worked on cases with people where, you know, you think you have a chance of helping and then they are put to death?
CALLER [00:44:32] Yeah. Although I’ll say this, I have been incredibly lucky as a lawyer working in this field and I think 90, 99 percent of cases that I have been a part of, that I have touched that I have become emotionally attached to and invested, have avoided execution. Some of them very last minute. But there are only there are only two people. And I would point to who I who were helping me and working alongside a project that I was running who weren’t my direct clients, but we were very close who were killed. And they were I don’t know if you remember, there was a big there was a lot of publicity on it a couple years ago. And then it just started executing again. One of the big things about that was that they hadn’t done it for a while. The new president was in and wanted to show his power. But what was significant and made the world care was that he was killed in the first round. I hink 14 people over a couple of weeks were executed and 13 of those were foreign nationals, though, including a guy from the Netherlands included, including a couple of Australians. So it really became very political. And at the time, I was working for governments and the EU and in liaison with the UN for foreign nationals overseas, because that creates a whole other dynamic as well in which governments argue over their citizens. So that I will say that was that was pretty horrible for me, but nowhere near how horrible it was for the lawyers who were in and out about jail every day and had to go to the execution island and listen to the gunshots. Yeah so I’m. I’m lucky because a lot of lawyers burn out and they have their own, you know psychological dynamics and issues to deal with. So a lot of people leave the profession, but a lot of people stay in. You know, it’s not uncommon to find you know, lawyers with addictions and problems and gambling is a big one you know, drinking and gambling are two that I would say I I have commonly seen.
CHRIS [00:47:24] Wow turns out that lawyers have pressure filled lives, especially when they aim for social justice. Well, who would have thought that? Very intense stuff. Let’s take a break from it. We’ve got advertisments. Check them out and we’ll be right back with more phone call.
[00:47:38] [AD BREAK]
CHRIS [00:48:47] Thanks again to all of our sponsors. Now let’s finish off the phone call.
CALLER [00:48:53] Gambling is a big one you know, drinking and gambling are two that I would say I I have commonly seen people escaping.
CHRIS [00:49:05] I have a couple I have a couple of friends who are lawyers, who, they are very clean cut people but who have said that cocaine is particularly popular amongst lawyers, that it’s that it’s a thing.
CALLER [00:49:18] Yeah. I always think of lawyers and bankers, I guess, when I think of cocaine.
CHRIS [00:49:23] Yeah. High pressure jobs. You need that escape. But I would imagine you, I would imagine that you wind up in a situation like that where someone dies. And that takes a little bit. That takes a little bit of you with it. Right?
CALLER [00:49:36] Yeah. You take it very, very personally. You know, and it’s it is very it’s very strange, especially for me right now, because I’m thinking a lot about life and death. Yes, because of what I do. But I, you know my my dad died recently,.
CHRIS [00:49:56] Oh I’m sorry.
CALLER [00:49:57] Which is obviously something a lot of people go through. Nearly all of us experience that. But it. It’s incredible what death does to people. And I think, you know, if I loop that back round to the whole issue, if you were asking about the death penalty and what I would argue against it like death is a horrible, hard thing. So we should minimize it as much as we can. And if we can stop executing people, you know, deliberately and definitely when we get it wrong and definitely when we don’t do it fairly. I just think the world is going to be, oh god that’s so cheesy. But it’s gonna be a better place. And I should say this as well Chris. Like I feel a lot of people, like, scream at me. You know what if it was your family member and. Well, I can say, you know, I don’t know whether it makes a difference to people. But I have an uncle who has been convicted of murder. And I also have an uncle who was murdered not in the same incident related to each other. But I think that gives me a good insight.
CHRIS [00:51:02] Wow.
CALLER [00:51:03] Of how it feels and the emotions and. What we should do to try and. I feel like the vomit rising ever so slightly. But it’s important. We want to live in a better place and we can definitely, we can definitely do that by stopping killing people.
CALLER [00:51:21] No matter what context we’re talking about.
CHRIS [00:51:24] I don’t I don’t think there’s any reason to apologize for wanting to make the world a better place. I think anybody who would view you saying that as cheesy needs to just have a reality check and realize you’re someone putting your money where your mouth is. You’re not just spouting off about this on Facebook, like 99 percent of the population, you’ve actually decided that you you see some avenues by which to accomplish improving the world and you’re trying. So don’t feel cheesy or like the vomit’s rising or any of that.
CALLER [00:51:51] Thank you.
CHRIS [00:51:51] Now, I got to ask you that. That’s a bomb to drop with 18 minutes left. Your two uncles, were they on the same side of the family?
CALLER [00:51:59] No different. Different sides.
CHRIS [00:52:02] Wow, that’s to have a murderer in the family and someone murdered. That’s very unusual.
CALLER [00:52:11] Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, maybe I feel like I see a lot of people who have not the same, but very similar crazy stories. Things that happen to them, you know. I guess I would like to say it’s rare, but I’m not sure whether that really is true.
CHRIS [00:52:32] Or at the very least, I don’t get to talk to people too much. And I guess, too, that some of my own prejudice, some of my own ignorance. Right. You don’t expect somebody who’s become a lawyer. I guess they’re somebody said for that, I’m making some assumptions about your upbringing or or, you know, some of the socio economic stuff that goes into that. And that’s ignorant of me. There’s a lot of maybe a lot of areas of the world or in our neighborhoods, in this country where that is more common. And that’s ignorant of me.
CALLER [00:52:58] And a, I think there’s. I don’t know how much that feeds into or doesn’t feed into what I do and whether it would make a difference or not. I yeah, I have no way of really telling that. But oh, I can say like it. I don’t know. I guess. Thank you for saying what you did say like that I don’t need to preface this with being cheesy or whatever. But I guess yeah. It’s nice to hear that somebody thinks that well you’re putting your money where your mouth is and you’re you see something and you do, you get up everyday and do a little thing that might not change everything, but it’s going to help a little bit on some level. You’re trying to address some of the issues.
CHRIS [00:53:47] And I’d I’d I’d much rather be accused of being a being an idealist than being a fuckin cynic. I would much rather be that.
CALLER [00:53:56] Well, sometimes I’m a cynical bitch. But yeah I trie.
CHRIS [00:54:01] Aren’t we all, I also I also can be a cynical bitch.
CALLER [00:54:08] Yeah, I I just yeah, I think there’s too much shit in the world for us not to, like, try and do something about it. So yeah, we’re allowed to bitch. But then after your bitching is done, you’ve got to do something productive with it. If you can and you have the means. Yeah.
CHRIS [00:54:26] Yeah. You’re one of the few who does. One of the few does. So don’t apologize for that. You’re trying. Most people don’t try.
CALLER [00:54:34] Yeah. I don’t know, there’s lots of people, you know, I said like who have been really good to me in my life. As there are like assumptions about sort of my background and that I got to be a lawyer. I mean, I didn’t have, I definitely didn’t have a bad upbringing at all like I had. I guess I would say I was lucky. I had a very good childhood. And yeah, sure we’ve got our family quirks and the craziness and all that but really I was lucky. I got lucky in that sense.
CHRIS [00:55:05] I hate to go dark and I’m not trying to trivialize anything, but the fact that you’ve revealed that that your family has has as had been surrounded by murder and now we’re circling back and refer to those as family quirks. It didn’t give me a very in a very dark humor sense. I did suppress a chuckle. Our family quirks, including the two incidents involving murder that I previously mentioned. But every family’s got something. Right.
CALLER [00:55:35] Well, I suppose they do. Should I tell you a more funny family quirk which you’ll probably appreciate because of the British American dynamic that we’ve got going.
CHRIS [00:55:45] Yeah, alright.
CALLER [00:55:45] So I found out my granddad, who I always called Grand Fobby just because we could never pronounce it right. He has always been American to me so I believed I had like American blood until I was mid 20’s when he died. And we found out that it was a big lie. He used to have like an American accent and everything. Now that is a family quirk for you.
CHRIS [00:56:07] Where was he from?
CALLER [00:56:11] I think it was Ireland.
CHRIS [00:56:13] Ireland?
CALLER [00:56:15] Yes. Yes.
CHRIS [00:56:16] That’s why he’s hiding that.
CALLER [00:56:17] But if you asked him where he was from,
CHRIS [00:56:18] That’s why he’s hiding that these Irish. No, I’m. I’m an Irish citizen. I’m an Irish citizen now.
CALLER [00:56:25] You are?
CHRIS [00:56:26] Yeah. I got my Irish citizenship.
CALLER [00:56:27] That’s great!
CHRIS [00:56:28] Yeah.
CALLER [00:56:28] Through your grandparents?
CHRIS [00:56:30] Yeah, through my grandparents.
CALLER [00:56:32] Yeah. There you go. It’s one of the it’s one of the best nationality laws out there.
CHRIS [00:56:36] Yeah. Now I can flee. Now I can flee when America finally descends into total chaos. I can get out.
CALLER [00:56:42] Well I was about to say you know yeah, you have those like 28 EU countries attached to your passport. Unfortunately, I might not now, but, you do you can go.
CHRIS [00:56:54] Yeah. And if I ever want to go do a standup tour in Europe, I’m a European citizen. I bet I don’t have to fill out as much paperwork.
CALLER [00:57:02] There are real perks of that. That’s very fun.
CHRIS [00:57:05] I love perks. Everybody loves a perk.
CALLER [00:57:08] Well, me too, me too. Very much so. I’m. I’m. How much time do you have left? I’m I’m having fun talking to you. And you’ve been very kind and patient and reassured me when I’ve said things that I think I probably shouldn’t. So I’m very grateful.
CHRIS [00:57:27] We have about 11 minutes left is the answer to your question.
CALLER [00:57:31] I guess time flies when we’re having fun.
CHRIS [00:57:33] Oh, yeah. Well, when you’re when you’re when you’re having a real good all time and talking about the sad state of the American justice system. Time flies by. Really flies by.
CALLER [00:57:46] I honestly like I find myself talking about it all the time. You know, one time I was on a train in the UK, which is a different dynamic again, because we don’t have the death penalty. And I persuaded the train manager guy who was doing the coffees and drinks, so much so that he then did a survey of all the passengers on the train that came to like order a coffee from him to see what their, like, views on the death penalty were. And then he would ask them about different types of cases. And then depending on the case, you know, they would give different views. But his votes were pretty interesting. They were mainly anti-death penalty unless it involved, you know a child and a paedophile. And then in which case that was like a resounding like nine out of ten people would definitely killed that person.
CHRIS [00:58:32] Yeah.
CALLER [00:58:34] So I guess people everywhere I go, we end up talking about it. So it’s good to talk about it with you.
CHRIS [00:58:40] I tell you on my end, you hear about cases and there’s times there’s times you hear about crimes where you’re like that’s so awful. Yeah, that person probably needs to go. You know, you hear about some of these serial killer like that guy, the Iceman. They did the HBO documentaries about where he just killed for fun. And you’re like ok this person probably needs to go off the face of the planet. But then I tell you, just on my end, you hear stories about people killed and then they uncover it was a false, false conviction. I’m like, oh, that happened even once. Yeah, we shouldn’t do that. Yeah. Like that can’t happen even once.
CALLER [00:59:15] Some people think we should do that because it’s for the greater good. But here’s a good analogy that I just love. Like when you’re dealing with these kind of things, there’s a guy who does a lot of TED talks on this issue and he says the facts are you know, like 1 in 10. So for like every nine people who have been executed, they say one is innocent. And he said that for every 10 planes that went up in the sky, if we knew that one was coming down, we would never fly. And in the state I’m in that statistic changed. So it’s like every three and a half planes that go up in the air, one would come down like I would never get on that plane. So, you know, get rid of the system and let’s just play it safe. But yeah.
CHRIS [00:59:58] That’s mind blowing to hear that it’s ten percent of people who die in an electric chair or injections or whatever. Ten percent probably didn’t do the thing they’re accused of, that’s. Yeah. We got to ditch that system you know. Gotta ditch that system.
CALLER [01:00:18] Yeah I think so. Well we’re trying, we’re trying. And I don’t know what people would think about that but you know.
CHRIS [01:00:24] There’s gonna be fierce debate. Fierce debate in the Facebook group. I can’t wait. The mods are going to hate me that week. Listen cause here’s the thing I don’t get either. It’s not like dying in jail is fun. It’s not like you. That’s the other thing I’m like, oK, so 10 percent of people executed. They think up to 10 percent false convictions, ditch it on that case. But also, it’s not like those nine guys who are dying are going to have a great life because they’re sitting in a cell that doesn’t seem fun to me. And everything you hear about prison is that the people who do the worst shit have it worse than than you know, this is a notorious thing. Oh, you did something to kids. You. Life is you going to every minute. You’re gonna have to watch your back.
CALLER [01:01:08] Yeah I’ve seen I’ve seen jurors, you know, on some awful cases like vote for life. Just because of that reason. Because the person asked for the death penalty. They wanted to die because life was going to be miserable. And they refused to do that for him. They wanted him to be punished. Which is also nuts because the state where I am right now, we’ve just had a lot of changes in law. And basically the Supreme Court told us the way we were doing things is wrong. The way you’ve been doing things for the last like 40 years is wrong and you have to change that. So it means that like, oh, my God, like 40 percent of death row are coming back for new hearings so that they’re going to have new sentences. So they may not be death penalty cases anymore. So it’s like all these jurors will go again. And they have like a second chance to, I guess, decide on what they want to do. So, I mean, I know a lot of the joys have been coming back saying life with people. Times have changed and people are seeing life as a better option in the system, like the modern juror seems to be doing that, at least in comparison to the old old cases, sort of like the seventies and eighties. So times are changing like America’s trend. We do use it less. So the future is bright.
CHRIS [01:02:31] Yeah.
CALLER [01:02:33] So it’s. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know, let’s see. What’s this space.
CHRIS [01:02:44] What was that?
CALLER [01:02:45] I said, what’s the space?
CHRIS [01:02:47] What’s the space?
CALLER [01:02:49] Watch this space.
CHRIS [01:02:51] Oh watch this space. I thought you were asking me, what’s this space. And I said either I missed a critical piece of information or this is some charming British slang that I’m not familiar with. But yeah, fascinating to follow. What about Texas, huh? People over in Texas doing your job, those are some tired people, huh?
CALLER [01:03:15] Well, you know, actually, the state where I am right now. It used to be don’t mess with Texas. But right now, it’s like the state that’s like most fucked up, if you like, in that well. So we’re kind of, Texans have done a great job recently. They they got their death sentences down to just three death sentences last year so, we’re kind of looking to them to help us which is crazy. I never thought I would say that.
CHRIS [01:03:43] You’re in a state that makes Texas look good when it comes to death penalty stuff wow you’ve got it tough. You must be tired all the time.
CHRIS [01:03:52] No. You know, this bar helps me out. Good conversations. So you know, it happened to me the other day. I like randomly was in this bar and this musician came up to me and he heard my accent, which is why he tuned in, but he was blind I should say that because that makes a difference when he was attracted to the accent. So he came over and he just like he heard a little bit about what I was doing. And he is like a typical wonderful musician from the south. He sings the blues and jazz. And he just he was also massive. He just picked me up and swung me around in this bar and just said, you know, anyone who’s trying to make a difference is, that’s just a beautiful thing and they deserve to be swept off their feet. You know, he brought me down and I was just like, well, you know what? Like my go. So I tried to pick him up and swing him around because that’s exactly what he just did. He, like, tried to make a difference for somebody show them a funny little moment.
CHRIS [01:05:02] So a blind bluesman picks you up, swings you around in a bar. That is an American story right there, that’s like something out of a Kerouac book, The Blind Bluesman.
CALLER [01:05:10] That’s like one of, yeah it’s a life magical moment. Right, thank you, America.
CHRIS [01:05:17] Yeah. We have three minutes left.
CALLER [01:05:20] So tell me what you’re going to do on your holiday. Quickly, before you go.
CHRIS [01:05:24] Going to go visit my parents. Try to relax a little bit. Try to relax. Chill out. And see The Avengers, we’re gonna see The Avengers Infinity War for sure. Gotta see Avengers. I’m gonna think a lot about comedy and jokes. And as I say this out loud, I’m feeling progressively guiltier that you do so much and I do so little.
CALLER [01:05:49] No, that’s not that’s not you don’t do little. Are you kidding? Look what you’ve done for mental health. I mean, I haven’t listened to every single podcast, but I already know that, look, all you’re doing, you’re giving the little people, the people who wouldn’t get like a chance to say, have their voice heard and speak to you and be honest about these issues and open the door on problems and how you can get help. I think that’s wonderful. You’re doing your little thing.
CHRIS [01:06:20] Thank you very much, but it’s not about me. It’s not about me.
CALLER [01:06:23] No, it’s not but that’s why it’s wonderful. And I wish you the best of holidays with your parents. You know, I. You know, with dad dying recently, I’ll say, you know, spend as much time as you can with mom and dad. You know, because it’s wonderful, wonderful times a moment. But it’s just. Yeah, you just got to enjoy it while you can and make the most of it. Yeah. Do everything you can to make life as beautiful as possible. I guess.
CHRIS [01:06:55] I think that’s a beautiful policy. Do everything you can to make life as beautiful as possible.
CALLER [01:07:01] Yes.
CHRIS [01:07:01] That’s pretty great.
CALLER [01:07:02] Sounds like a good note.
CHRIS [01:07:06] It does sound like something you’d read like as you’re like waiting to enter a spa when you’ve already got the bathrobe on and the slippers on, you looked down and see that on a coffee table, on like a coaster.
CALLER [01:07:20] Oh, maybe we should write it on my walls. I actually have a phrase on my wall. It’s not me who put it up there. But I do think it’s interesting, it says you have more freedom than you are using. My landlord is interesting, I guess.
CHRIS [01:07:34] Oh, that’s nice. I thought you meant in your office.
CALLER [01:07:37] No, no, no. In my in my living room.
CHRIS [01:07:40] You have more freedom than you’re using. Right. I’m pretty proud. I use a lot of my freedom. I have the privilege of freedom and I use a lot of it. I’m proud of that.
CALLER [01:07:49] I guess that’s also a beautiful note. We should we should use the freedom that we have.
CHRIS [01:07:54] Yeah, we should. Where should I go next time I’m in Manchester, what should I see? We got 45 seconds give me one recommendation.
CALLER [01:08:02] Oh, my God, the pressure. Give you one recommendation for Manchester.
CHRIS [01:08:06] Or the north of England.
CALLER [01:08:07] Town hall. Town hall in Manchester. Walk the streets of the northern quarter. Now, I think I lost you for a second, but maybe you just hung up cause 45 minutes, 45 seconds went but thank you Chris.
CHRIS [01:08:28] No you disappeared and then it came back with a strange roaring sound that made me fear for your safety.
CALLER [01:08:34] I guess nobody wants you to know the best secrets of Manchester.
CHRIS [01:08:37] No, not at all. We missed a couple. Thank you for talking to me.
CALLER [01:08:41] Thank you for talking to me. Have a lovely holiday.
CHRIS [01:08:48] Caller, thank you for calling and telling me about your life. Thank you for doing everything you do. Tried not to be too divisive politically. But I think it’s pretty obvious that I’m on your side of the fence said that in the show. And thank you. Thanks for doing what you do and stepping up. I think it’s really cool. Thank you Jared O’Connell, Harry Nelson. Thank you. Reverend John Delore, thank you Greta Cohen. Thank you Shellshag. Want to know more about me when I’m out on the road doing my standup shows. Chrisgeth.com is the web site. You want to help Beautiful Anonymous. You go to Apple podcasts. Rate, review, subscribe. It really helps when you do it. That’s all the business. We’ll see you next time.
[01:10:11] [AD BREAK]
CHRIS [01:10:15] Next time on Beautiful Anonymous, I get a little worked up and I hand out some tough love.
CALLER [01:10:22] You’re like you should do it. No. Check off the boxes.
CHRIS [01:10:26] I’m saying absolutely you should do it. Absolutely you should do it. But if you if you would be happy, if you would be happy doing anything else, go do that, because you’re going to feel this way forever if you do it. Can I just be frank? Do you want more tough love?
CALLER [01:10:40] Yes. Please.
CHRIS [01:10:41] Stop playing the bullshit where you say you don’t know how it works. You know how it works. You’re scared and you’re admitting that. And that’s commendable. Just go try. Give it a year and go try and go hard and do an open mic every day. That’s next time on Beautiful Anonymous.