EP. 68 — Jessamyn Stanley

Jameela: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, I hope you’re well, and if you’re not, then you might feel better after listening to this episode, because my guest is so fantastic and affirming and kind and warm and smart. I’m talking about Jessamyn Stanley, who is a yoga instructor, a hugely popular yoga instructor on Instagram, who I found because a lot of people, especially in the fat liberation space, would tell me to check out our amazing work. And she did not disappoint. She’s truly incredible. She is someone who is larger than the average yoga instructor you will see in mainstream modern culture because it’s inherently racist and fat phobic and hugely, hugely problematic and exclusionary. She is breaking the barriers that need to be broken to make sure that everyone feels as though they have a right to move their bodies. They have a right to enjoy their bodies. They have a right to practice meditation and spirituality and yoga. And nobody gets to tell you what you are or are not capable of. She’s an activist in that space. She’s a life coach, I guess unintentionally. It’s not really anything that she planned on this path. And yet it’s it’s where she’s ended up. And she’s changing the lives of truly hundreds of thousands of people. She’s been on magazine covers. She has two books out. One of them is called Yoke, My Yoga of Self Acceptance, which is available now. And we talk about her journey with her body, which hasn’t always been full of acceptance, and we talk about her journey with her mental health. And we also talk about weed, which I really enjoyed as someone who has been helped by weed in the past, which I haven’t really spoken about not that it should be something that one is embarrassed of, I guess it just didn’t really come up anyway. I fucking love Jessamyn and I’m so excited for you to get to know her and to love her, to follow her on Instagram, follow her anywhere you can. Follow her teachings and listen to her words with such intention and try to take them with you and your everyday life, because in doing so, I genuinely think you can improve the quality of your existence. So I’m glad that I haven’t built her up too much. This is the iconic Jessamyn Stanley. Jessamyn Stanley, I fucking love you. Welcome to I Weigh. How are you? [00:02:36][155.9]

Jessamyn: [00:02:37] Thank you so much for having me Jameela. I fucking love you, too. And I’m grateful to be here with you. [00:02:41][4.4]

Jameela: [00:02:44] What a lovely start to a podcast. I’ve been a fan of yours for quite some time. And I am I’m pleased to find that within just three minutes of meeting you face to face, your energy is as beautiful as it comes across on Instagram and you are even more beautiful in person. And and you’re a huge inspiration of not only mine, but hundreds of thousands of people around the world and counting. And so there are a million things I want to talk to you about, including both of your books, especially your new book, Yoke: My Yoga of Self Acceptance, which came out last month. I’m super excited to talk to you about that, but also just everything you have come to stand for on social media and within the yoga world. And so for people who do not know, I mean Jessamyn how would you identify yourself if you were to describe yourself? How would you identify yourself, especially within the yoga space? [00:03:36][51.8]

Jessamyn: [00:03:37] Oh, my goodness. I mean, I think that as a yoga person, I think of myself as a practitioner only and always like I show up every single day just to be on my own path, trying to understand my own journey. But the easiest way to describe myself to other people is that I am a yoga teacher and entrepreneur and author and an advocate, and it shows up in many different ways. But at the end of the day, to me, I’m literally just living my yoga practice and all of the businesses are just extensions of that practice. [00:04:13][36.2]

Jameela: [00:04:15] 100 percent. And I think one of the things that makes you stand out is not just the fact that you are a black woman in the yoga space, which is something that we do not find anywhere near enough. My good friend Brittany, who people might know online, this is Brittany Floyd-Mayo they might know her online as a Trap Yoga Bae. She’s been on this podcast before and and we’ve spoken before about what an isolating space yoga can be. It’s something I really want to talk to you about, especially if you are a woman of color, in particular a black woman, but also you are not the size zero white stereotype with the hundred abs in the Lululemon necessarily. I mean, I don’t know exactly what brand you’re wearing, but, you know, your body type your body type is is curvaceous and and not the body type that we are told you are supposed to have in yoga. You supposed to have after years of yoga. I think you look fucking amazing. I think your your videos are incredible. You are you’re so athletic. You’re so fucking flexible. And I think the thing that you have been able to make undeniable is that regardless of your size, you can be fit and flexible and happy and you deserve to practice self care on your body and on your mind at any size. And and you have been able to break down so many misconceptions around fat people. And also, just as I say that word, I think I want to just start off by talking to you about your own belief around the terminology of fat, like how you have reclaimed that word. Would you mind talking to me and us about that? [00:05:49][93.7]

Jessamyn: [00:05:50] I would love to. I mean, I think it’s very interesting because I’m often asked, like, why do you call yourself fat or what? Why? What’s the reasoning behind that? And I always think, like, because you’re asking the question because because it’s an issue. Because it’s something that would give anyone pause, that the reclamation of the word fat has been such a huge part of my own personal healing journey, being able to understand that fat is not an insult. That is not something that means anything bad about who you are. Fat is a way of describing anything. [00:06:34][43.6]

Jameela: [00:06:34] Just like men feel short. [00:06:36][1.2]

Jessamyn: [00:06:36] Yes, exactly. And so for me personally, it’s imperative to actively reclaim the word and use it for myself so that I’m not the victim, so that I don’t fall into the role of victim or feel as though the word is being weaponized against me. And this has been something that I’ve been working on and toward for many years. And it’s a day by day journey. But it is so exciting to me to hear more people use the word fat and really understand the ways that our society has cast it as an insult. A lot of people think fat means ugly, that it means bad, that it means unworthy, and it just really doesn’t mean that at all. And I think that especially for children, it’s so crucial to shift that dynamic so that they don’t live in the same world that we’ve been living in. [00:07:31][55.0]

Jameela: [00:07:32] A hundred percent. What’s your journey been like with your body? Have you have you always been confident about it? [00:07:40][7.8]

Jessamyn: [00:07:40] Yeah, absolutely not. I have had so little confidence in my body and that has really been the font of growth for me. Like when I was in when I was a child, I was I very much felt that the way that my body is was a problem. Like I felt like the way that I look, everything about it was bad. And so up until, like. High school, college, I was obsessed with losing weight, I would like to do all kinds of diets to try to lose weight and I got really and there was a period where I was like really into Weight Watchers. And I actually talk about this a little bit in my first book, Everybody Yoga like this experience of wanting to, like, just fit into the box. I just wanted to be acceptable. And during that time, though, when I was in college, I also became really familiar with the work of authors like Marianne Kirby and Leslie Kinzel. And I remember back in the day they used to do a podcast called Two Whole Cakes, and the whole idea was to lift up fat acceptance and and what it means to really explore body acceptance as a as a radical act as an act of political defiance, and so that was really influential for me, also engaging with fat fashion bloggers like Gabby Gregg and Nicolette Mason and Nadia Apollos and people that like they were just like doing their thing, totally comfortable with themselves. But I was still on the fence about things, but it was really helpful for me to see them doing their thing. And then I would say, you know, I feel like my body acceptance journey and my yoga journey are very separate from one another. But at the same time, they kind of intersect at this one place where I started practicing yoga when I was in graduate school. So this is just after college. And I was just I was going through a really hard time in my life. And I can go into more detail about, like all the different things that yoga opened up for me. But during that process, I started taking photos of my yoga practice because in my home practice, I wanted to be able to see the changes in my body over time. I wanted to be able to really use my own skills as a teacher. And so I was looking at these photos of myself and I. In the moment of taking the photo, I would be like, Oh my God. Yoga is amazing. Like, I just feel incredible. And then as soon as I look at the picture, I would just start talking cash at about myself. I’d be like, oh my God, look at my stomach, look at my arms, blah, blah. And it took me a really long time to realize that, like. I am the one saying these things about myself, like there is no one else in the room doing this, I always want to we always want to blame, like the media or parents or friends or whoever. But like, I was the one causing this harm to myself and really being able to notice that as a loop has been transformational in my body acceptance journey, because I think that, you know. Just like anything else you want for body acceptance to be kind of like a one size fits all fix, something that you can be like, yeah, I figured that out a few years ago and now I never need to think about it again, but it’s just really not like that. I found that it’s like literally a day by day, moment by moment journey, and that the most important thing is just accepting that there is no ending point in that the ups and downs are good and that it’s OK to feel all the different things. And that for me, as like a catalyst has been how I’ve continued to move along this journey of body liberation and acceptance of my whole self. [00:11:44][244.1]

Jameela: [00:11:46] I I totally feel what you’re saying when you’re talking about the fact that we have to be accountable for the things that we say to ourselves in the mirror. But I also just compulsively need to stress that, yes, you said those things to yourself, but you did not learn those things by yourself. You learned those things from other people, from media or from I mean, who am I to speak to your experience but how we’re around the same age and we grew up in the same world and the fashion magazines are raised, people who like you and me and every different body shape and every different person who had a disability and every different trans person like we grew up in a world that that that told almost everyone that they weren’t good enough and they shouldn’t be here. And they were an inconvenience. They were an eyesore because they didn’t fit in with the vogue norm. And so I just always feel the need to remind people of that. But at the same time, I find it very empowering how you then also bring it back to yourself if like at the end of the day, we make the choice as to whether or not we said we want to continue that violence against ourselves. [00:12:50][64.0]

Jessamyn: [00:12:52] It’s such an interesting thing. I think, again, speaking to this intersection of like yoga and self acceptance, that a huge part of how I have come to understand all of this is through this understanding of being the source of all that I am seeking and really getting that like I am a part of this system. It’s not something that’s being it’s not something that’s happening to me. Like the world is not like performing pain on me. Like it’s it’s something that I’m a part of. And like, while I will say that there is what it would have been like to grow up in a world where I actually see the representation in the media, like I never grew up seeing anyone who looked like me, like aside from Queen Latifah on Living Single, Mo’Nique, on the Parkers, like and like of some there were other fat black women. But we were always in supporting roles or like the maid, the nanny, the friend. Like you’re never the starring role. You’re never lead. Like, I can’t imagine what it would have been like to be in middle school when Lizzo was, like, really popping off. Like, I cannot fathom what it would be like to live in a world where representation is actually being is actually being valued, but I think that knowing the world that I did grow up in, which was the to your point, we’re definitely contemporaries. I mean, like I’m thinking about Jennifer Love Hewitt being the of the way that you should look, you know, I mean, like the old school. How we should look. Do you remember? [00:14:41][109.5]

Jameela: [00:14:42] Do you remember? [00:14:42][0.3]

Jessamyn: [00:14:43] She’s thick. Like, when I think about her, like, I’m like I think about Jennifer Love Hewitt, you know, like she was she is thick by 1998 standards. [00:14:52][8.9]

Jameela: [00:14:52] She was teeny but she just had big breasts and I was we were told that, that she’s that mean she’s courvy same thing with Gazelle she was called, you know, the curves from Brazil. And it was just this is a very slender woman, very, very thin who had some breasts. [00:15:06][13.5]

Jessamyn: [00:15:07] Who had a 12 pack. Yeah. She just wears a D cup. I don’t know what we’re even talking about. [00:15:13][6.5]

Jameela: [00:15:14] We were told that Kate Winslet sank the Titanic, at a size six at a US size six. She sank the Titanic. [00:15:20][5.5]

Jessamyn: [00:15:21] She was she was considered a fatty. That’s right. Wow man the 90s were crazy. [00:15:25][4.4]

Jameela: [00:15:26] It was a wild time to grow up. Yeah. [00:15:27][0.8]

Jessamyn: [00:15:28] So it’s like it was definitely that the media was creating a very specific kind of world. And it was in contrast to what I was being told at home anyway. I always felt like my mom was I mean, my mom is also fat also like she’s always been really into health and wellness and like like she was into green smoothies and echinacea, like decades before it was as popular as it is now. But so I always had this model, but it really didn’t matter because I just wanted to be like everybody else. I just wanted to do what everybody in my school was doing. And it’s interesting for me to look back on all that, because as much as I can say, like, yes, representation is incredible. It changes lives. But I also see that, like. I was a little kid making my decisions, and these are the decisions that I made and this is the person that I am, and it makes me feel so powerful to be able to own that and not feel as though I am owned by anyone else acting upon it. So it’s just this is this perspective shift that I don’t even I don’t advocate for anyone. I don’t really care what other people do. I think everybody’s got to do their own thing. But I do think that for me, it’s been very healing to own the feet that I have and own the stance that I have and and know that I’m in control of who, who and what I put out to the world. [00:16:54][86.7]

Jameela: [00:16:55] I think that’s beautiful. And so. And so has I know you say that your sort of yoga journey and your body acceptance journey have been separate and yet somehow intertwined. At what point did your attitude towards your body really start to shift? Because you’d gone through the Weight Watchers period, you’d gone through, you know, dieting, hating yourself like I don’t know exactly where you’re at now with your body image. You always seem incredibly confident online in a way that I know has empowered all of my followers. And whenever I talk about you, people just freak out and. But where are you at now? How did you get there? [00:17:35][39.4]

Jessamyn: [00:17:36] I would say that right now I am definitely hands down in the best place I’ve ever been with my body. It is incredible to me, actually, like the ways in which I’m able to just be naked by myself naked, which I don’t know if that resonates for anybody listening or this is a thing, but like it’s the way we treat ourselves in private that is most noticeable, like the things that we feel like we have to cover up and the way that we hide from ourselves. And I think that I find myself at this stage hiding from myself less than I ever have. But it is a day to day journey. And I would say that I started to notice a shift. If it’s twenty twenty one now. Oh my God. Then I definitely started to notice a shift around like twenty fifteen probably. And I think the. The biggest thing for me has been like just actually accepting all of the negative feelings that I have about myself, not trying to change them, not trying to be like, OK, so I’m just going to pretend that that’s not happening and I’m only going to say good things. It’s like, no, here are the shitty things here that that voice, that negative, Nancy, who has so much to say, that voice is a part of me and I’m not all that bitch. You know, I don’t like her. She’s rude and out of pocket all the time. But being able to just be like, you know what? That’s negative, Nancy. And like she told me, no harm. She just she people were really mean to her when she was a kid. And like that’s why she acts this way. Being able to own that bitch and just be like, yeah, it’s cool. This is we’re on this journey together. [00:19:17][101.2]

Jameela: [00:19:25] You post a lot of photographs and not many clothes with with your body contorted into lots of fabulous positions, was that was that a journey, a process being able to share on social media, especially in a larger body and in a black body? Was that something that you felt any reticence about. Was that something that you had any pushback to or has just been empowering? Because the photographs are fucking fabulous. I repost them all the time. [00:19:56][31.0]

Jessamyn: [00:19:56] It is so interesting because, like, I really think that if I had not started posting on social media when I did, I probably would not have started. But I started posting my yoga practice on Instagram when Instagram like first came out. And back then there really were not that many yoga people on there. And it wasn’t something where I was like, I want to show people what it looks like to be black and fat and practicing yoga. I was literally like, I’m just at home in my own home yoga practice. I want to connect to other people who are doing the same thing. But I realized pretty quickly that, like, I wasn’t getting that much feedback from other yoga people. I was mostly getting feedback from people who were like, I didn’t know the fat people could do yoga. And I was just like, why do you think that people can’t do yoga? Fat people do all kinds of things all the time. We obviously just had a visibility issue. So like then it became, I just want to share my life and my truth, because obviously this is something that seems more rare than it actually is, because I’m I’m not even the first fat black person to put pictures of myself practicing yoga on the Internet. Like there’s so many people who have been out here living this life. And I’m just one of one of a great lineage. And so that experience, though, has been Eye-Opening to me, because I have received a lot of pushback from people who are like, you are promoting obesity, you are making people have unhealthy lifestyles. You are showing that [00:21:31][94.5]

Jameela: [00:21:32] I can’t believe you’ve been forcing people, Jessamyn, like I you know, I really want to pull you up on this. I can’t believe that you are forcing people to eat more. [00:21:39][7.2]

Jessamyn: [00:21:40] Please call me out. [00:21:40][0.0]

Jameela: [00:21:41] to gain weight. I can’t believe how much you have been promoting. Are you being paid to promote this obesity that you are currently promoting? How dare you how dare you coming into people’s homes. [00:21:54][12.6]

Jessamyn: [00:21:56] Literally. That’s exactly right. They’re literally like so. But my thing is,. [00:22:00][3.1]

Jameela: [00:22:00] Do you think I’m promoting being Indian? [00:22:01][1.1]

Jessamyn: [00:22:01] Thing is this is what I’m saying. So I’m like, I don’t even think about the fact that I’m fat and black. Honestly, at the end of the day I’m like, I am just me. This is who I am. It’s what I it’s what I do, what I look like. It’s there’s not there’s not another choice. I’m not like, oh, I would like. I’m only sharing this part of myself for I’m like, yo, this is madness. And also I think that people are very scared of what they don’t understand. And so I think that for a lot of people, I represent a changing of the guard or a shift in the zeitgeist, and they are very scared of what that shift will mean for them. And that’s really understandable to me. And I don’t feel like I have to be a part of that. Like I feel like that’s a personal journey for those people. And so when I receive feedback that is hard to receive, like from just like critical feedback to straight out negative feedback to direct trolling, I just always try to remember, like, how it feels to feel disenfranchised and to feel marginalized, because I really think that that’s the space that a lot of people are coming from. Speaking to your point about like I show up a space of abundance. I understand that a lot of people are coming from a space of scarcity. So and I get that because I personally can reverse the scarcity mentality. So I’m like, I feel you. And especially whenever people are, like, finding all of they’re like getting in the comments section. And like they have so much to say. The number of things you see on the Internet that you don’t like seeing I’m not in the comments section talking about it. I don’t care. I just. [00:23:45][103.8]

[00:23:45] I always think this. [00:23:46][0.7]

Jessamyn: [00:23:46] But when I when I see people, like, really going in, I’m like, that person is having a bad day. Like, literally they probably had something happen at their job or whatever. They’re they’re taking care of somebody. Nobody cares about them. They feel like nobody cares about them. They get on their phone to try to find happiness in the way that they’re finding happiness is they’re trying to make me feel sad. And I think that makes sense. And we live in a world where fear is just being promoted at every possible fucking angle so that I’m like, you know what? All I can really do is just experience compassion within myself and just reflect that compassion, and I do not always feel this way. I want to make it seem like I’m like, yes, I am always so. [00:24:30][44.4]

Jameela: [00:24:31] So yeah, you’re giving me strong Jesus vibes right now, making me feel very bad [00:24:34][3.6]

Jessamyn: [00:24:35] that is absolutely not. This is the thing is that people this thing about being from Greensboro, North Carolina, is that people don’t understand this about me. And there are days when the Greensboro comes out and there’s I can think of one day in particular that somebody was trolling me and I was like I was having a very stressful day and like trying to get to and from a bunch of different places have like five minutes before getting on a plane. And I was just like going in on them while I was like and then this thing and that thing. And then I went back and looked at it and I just deleted all of it. And so I just don’t it’s fine. Like, they can have their opinion and that the voice inside of me is like, oh, but they don’t know. Oh. And then I’m like, it’s just let it be. And so sometimes that voice, that voice that I deeply respect, deep wisdom comes from this person that is not here for the shit. I appreciate that voice. But more than that, I’m like, I just want to be just just let them say what they want to say. [00:25:30][55.2]

Jameela: [00:25:31] 100 percent. No fuck these people. Let’s focus on the people who send you all the love that I see. Because when I look at your page, what I mostly see is just people bowing down to you and loving on your body, loving on your spirit. How has that changed the way that you see yourself? Has the has the positive impact on other people positively impacted your own body image? It may have had no impact at all I was just wondering. [00:25:57][25.6]

Jessamyn: [00:25:57] I’m sure it absolutely has. And honestly, I really when I think about the people that are vulnerable with me, who share their love to me and with me, I’m just so grateful to be in community because I know that it has a profound impact on how I’m able to move through the world. And I feel just a lot of gratitude for that. But also what I notice is that whenever people are showing me love, it really feels like they’re showing themselves love. And that to me feels so important going back to this idea that like this whole world right now, we’re just like in a war of fear, there’s fear at every corner, like someone trying to make you aware of something or make you or make you actively scared of something, like being able to just show love for yourself and for others is like talk about political. It is it is a weapon ultimately. It’s something that we can use to really go against all of this fear. And that as a cycle just feels so important and necessary, especially right now. And I just feel really grateful for all of it. But I did not always feel this way about it. I’ve had a lot of conflict around the way that I engage with other people and what I personally am getting from it. I feel like my yoga practice has allowed me to be critical of the reasons why I engage on social media and what I get from like the energetic pull from others. And and it definitely there was a period of time where I thought about not posting on social media anymore because I was like, I don’t feel like this is serving my yoga practice. Like, I feel like yoga is saying to look within yourself for all the answers. And social media is saying the exact opposite. It’s saying, look outside of yourself always. And I struggled with this for time, for a time. And honestly, I would say that I still struggle with it. It’s something that I talk about in my yoga self acceptance, and it’s something that I think has been a really important lens for me to be seeing this whole world that we’re living in. But at the end of the day, what I’ve come to at this stage anyway is that there is so much powerful impact in our world that can happen through any one of us, just sharing our lives authentically and just keeping it real with people and being like, this is who I am. I’m messy. I say the wrong thing, I do the wrong thing. And it’s just got to be OK because it’s who I am. And that as something to share with the world feels like worthwhile to me, it feels like something that I can offer. And so that’s really where my practice of sharing my life with others comes from at this point is like I just want to show that, like it’s OK to be messy, it’s OK to not have the right answer. And, you know, that means that goes it starts at accepting your body, because I think that if you can’t accept your body, it’s really hard to engage with anything that happens inside of your body, but that once you accept your body, that there’s all these other things to accept as well. You’re accepting your internalized racism, you’re accepting your capital the way that capitalism plays a role in your life, you’re accepting slut shaming and sexism and like and not accepting that you you, me, all of us, that we’re all a part of this system and that it’s OK to not have the right answer and that it’s good to to just let everything be exactly as it is, [00:29:44][227.3]

Jameela: [00:29:45] just so we have it clearly for anyone who’s listening to this who either thinks that fat people are inherently lazy and unhealthy. Or maybe the person listening is a fat person who has believed for the longest time that they are inherently lazy and incapable. What do you want people to know about fat people and the world of exercise? The world of movement? And, I’m really just. What stigmas do you most want to break down? [00:30:21][36.7]

Jessamyn: [00:30:24] I would say that I don’t care if you are fat or if you are lazy or if you are both fat and lazy. All that matters is that you know that you are necessary. You are needed. What you bring to this world no one else can bring to this world. You have to shine your light as bright as you possibly can so that all of us can experience the bounty of your being. And that does mean moving your body from time to time. You don’t need to do anything in particular. You don’t need to look different. You don’t need to change your body. It’s not about changing anything. It’s about honoring this incredible life that is inside of you. And you are capable of doing literally anything that you want at any body size that you want. If you weigh four hundred and fifty pounds and you want to run a marathon, I will see you at mile marker twenty six point two because you can do it is absolutely within your reach. There’s nothing that you can’t do if you believe in yourself and if you understand that what you bring to this world is necessarily. [00:31:33][68.8]

Jameela: [00:31:34] 100 percent. And I always think it’s important to point this out that I am and like societally described as a thin person. I am actually lazy. Jessamyn is not not lazy and has many jobs and travels loads and teaches people, you know,. [00:31:49][15.1]

Jessamyn: [00:31:49] you are not lazy. [00:31:49][0.1]

Jameela: [00:31:49] I am a fucking lazy it’s insane, but but also I have extremely poor health. And from what I can see of you and the lifestyle you are able to uphold, you have pretty fucking good health. You’re fucking glowing right now. And, and, and you have flexibility that I could only ever dream of mate I could only ever dream of it. So so allow us just right here, right now to to defy this, this lie that the thin equals healthy and active and flexible and worthy and actually recognize that you have two people who are sitting on opposite sides of those, you know, somewhat opposites on different sides of that line who completely defy all of those stereotypes. So so I just I think it’s just always important to make sure that we continue to illustrate that it’s it’s such categorical, easily provable bullshit. [00:32:49][59.7]

Jessamyn: [00:32:52] Literally. I mean, I just think that everybody is having their own experience. And the way that you look is not indicative of anything other than it’s not indicative of anything. And you really cannot judge a book by its cover. And I don’t think that there’s the standards that we hold each other to are just based on nonsense. And the more that we can just be like, you know, I’m having my own experience and I don’t need to worry about anybody else’s the better. [00:33:16][25.0]

Jameela: [00:33:18] One hundred percent. So if you’re thinking about moving today, get moving regardless of what size you are, regardless of what color you are, regardless of what you’re wearing, regardless of what disability you may or may not have, move anything just like swing your nipples around. I really don’t care what it is. Just move anything just. [00:33:34][16.4]

Jessamyn: [00:33:35] Yeah, move your mind. It doesn’t matter. Literally, it does not matter. [00:33:39][3.7]

Jameela: [00:33:41] Roll around in your bed. Just move, move your body. Move your beautiful, brilliant body that deserves to be nourished and cherished and enjoyed to the max of its capacity. You you get to decide what the maximum of that capacity is. Not some fucking magazine that hates women that was made by and paid for by men, [00:33:58][16.1]

Jessamyn: [00:34:00] but that is literally all of those magazines. But anyway yeah. [00:34:03][2.8]

Jameela: [00:34:03] Exactly. Um, so then talk to me about the yoga community, because I know Brittany didn’t have an easy time kind of breaking into the into the community in particular as a black woman. But I also know that she was adding trap music to her practice and and, you know, different types of affirmations did a different approach. What has your experience been like with the actual yoga community, not the one that you built, but the one that you had to kind of break through and build your own table in. [00:34:29][26.0]

Jessamyn: [00:34:32] Well, it’s been very interesting because I think that any breaking through or being part of that has happened for me has really only come because I’ve been doing my own thing and I’ve not really been that concerned with the mainstream yoga world because I think that the mainstream yoga world is deeply embedded in white supremacy. And there is a there’s an understanding that certain people’s views are more important than other people’s views. And it’s in everything and everywhere. And I have never really been accepted by anyone in the mainstream. So I never expected that. Like, I never I never felt like there was a place for me in the yoga world. And so I didn’t look for one. And when I first started teaching yoga, this is probably actually part of why I was not interested in teaching yoga, like I literally was not interested in it at all. And I was sharing my yoga practice online and people would be like, oh my God, can you come teach me? I’m in Stockholm. I’m in Sydney like, we’re all over the world. And I would be like, You do not need me to come teach you budget. There are thousands of yoga teachers like I would recommend yoga teachers. I would recommend other platforms. I’d be like, you should. This is what would work best for you. And they would still just be like, I don’t care about any of that. You should come to me in blank place. And so I went into training, really just thinking like, you know, maybe I’ll teach, but mostly like I’ll learn more about the practice. And it’s not really it was not a goal of mine. But when I was in training, I realized that, like, there have to be as many yoga teachers as possible, really, that all of us should be teaching to some degree, whether it’s to the people in our immediate lives or even just teaching ourselves, because I feel like the practice of compassion is so needed in this world and that the way that we each interpret it is not going to make sense for everybody, but it could make sense for one person. And even if that that one person sharing the the practice of compassion that can change the world. And so from that place, I was like, OK, I just want to reach everyone who is asking me to teach them. And I can’t physically be in the same place as everyone, but I teach internationally. But I can only be in so many places each year and it’s special. It’s now the only post pandemic getting back into seeing people in real life. But I can’t physically be with everybody. So I started the Underbelly, my wellness community, because I wanted to make a space for anyone who has ever felt like they’re not good enough can find home no matter where they are, no matter what part of the globe you’re on, you can find a home within yourself no matter what. But not everybody is interested in like physically taking a yoga class. So being able to write books and being able to host a podcast and being able to do other projects that also are sharing this message. That to me is like, OK, that’s how I can reach everybody who has asked me to teach them. But at the same time, like I was like, I’m in none of that was I saying like, oh, I would like to break into the mainstream yoga world because I just don’t like the mainstream yoga world is fat phobic white supremacists like I don’t care about that. So [00:38:07][215.8]

Jameela: [00:38:09] Why has that happened? So how is that how is that happened? Because it’s an Indian practice, like it is not a practice of originally white people like that is it predominantly comes from my part of the world, you know. And so that’s why it’s white supremacy, you know, so will you educate me and us about this, can you educate us on how white supremacy has has infiltrated and also, you know, how white supremacy is linked to fat phobia, but how it’s infiltrated the yoga space so intensely and shut most of the world out? [00:38:44][34.9]

Jessamyn: [00:38:45] in such an intense way. I mean, it’s even I think that. Just historically, it can probably be directly linked to the British occupation of South Asia, like all across the way that, the way that British imperialism just has this very lasting impact on the way that all history has moved forward from like the 18th and 19th centuries. And from that, looking specifically at American yoga, which is what I think of, I think of American yoga is being any lineage of yoga that started for the most part in America, beginning in like the late 19th, early 20th century. And that classical yoga is not that it is separate from American yoga. The classical yoga is deeply entrenched in South Asian culture and heritage. And that it is it’s a huge part of many religions and that it is not this kind of second, this, the child that has been birthed through the through America, which America’s colonization is also the product of British imperialism. So I think that just knowing that, like. Everything that imperialism touches is a part of white supremacy. And on top of that the way that we would then come to understand yoga as digested by a nation that was created in the image of white supremacy that all of that would have would care, would bear the same marker. And so at this stage like yoga, American yoga, especially like the modern yoga industrial complex, this whole like capitalist monster of selling yoga to one another. It’s totally embedded in white supremacy, and it’s all about like lifting up very specific people, very specific voices, very, very specific perspectives and denigrating literally everything else and minimizing and marginalizing anyone who is considered unacceptable by that system. [00:41:17][152.2]

Jameela: [00:41:18] And this is basically my biggest gripe of the year and end of my life, is that the way that capitalism in particular and, you know, fat phobia and white supremacy, but in particular, let’s just stick with capitalism for a second. The way that it has taken over exercise that is supposed to spiritually, emotionally, psychologically nourish us, the way that everything has been turned into weight loss, everything has been turned into a tool of fat phobia. I had an eating disorder growing up, and because of that, I used to compulsively exercise only ever for weight loss benefits. I would never think of it as something that would make me feel better. I was probably actively becoming distressed by the exercise, not noticing it, because all I was thinking about was, was whether or not I had already lost weight immediately checking myself in the mirror, getting on the scales when I was 13 years old after a run, hoping that maybe I’ll already see the weight loss results clearly not understanding anything about how the body works. And so because of that, because of how much I associated exercise only with this kind of you know, similarly to what you’re describing is kind of thin white membership club. You know, exercise was was something that was exclusive when it is such a fundamentally universal right. And and need. I didn’t exercise for like 20 years. And so I lost 20 years of mental health benefits because I was so, because I was so afraid of what exercise represented to me and to everyone. And I felt like I had to turn up at a gym already with a six pack, and I had to have thighs that didn’t wobble when I ran. And I thought I had to, you know, look a certain way in the little crop tops and the leggings. I was so polluted. And so I’ve really only found exercise in the last year, again, where I’m doing it purely purely for the sake of my mental health. And, you know, I work out in baggy clothes and I eat delicious calorific like high calorie snacks during it as a way to continue to decolonize my mind I guess of all of the fat phobic rhetoric that’s been around diet, culture and exercise and how they’ve become fuzed over the last I don’t know, since the 80s is when it really became out of control. I feel like that’s a really long time that we’ve been poisoned against our own bodies. And I think the reason I’ve been gravitating to you for the last couple of years is that you fully represent that space of, you know, democratizing exercise, taking exercise back, taking the ownership of your body back, looking, looking to the spiritual and emotional benefits of the flexibility and the circulation benefits of yoga and and the the way that you feel afterwards emotionally, the way you feel like you have control of your body. You’re in tune with your body. You’re in touch with yourself. You’ve you’ve become without meaning to. You’ve become such a great leader in in the movement to take exercise back. And I think that’s so great. And and I want to know how you feel about all the people that have been left out up until now, whether it’s because of their color or because of their size or because of whether or not they have a disability or not. How do you feel? [00:44:23][185.4]

Jessamyn: [00:44:27] I feel like it is so important for us to understand that we cannot look to white supremacy and fat phobic entities to ever represent us and that we cannot ask them to. We cannot focus on asking them to give us crumbs because we’re all worth more than crumbs. And I think that really being able to respect the fact that you are important, that what you bring to this world is necessary, that no one else can do what you do, no one else can bring to the world what you can bring. And knowing that taking care of your vessel is just a part of that in the same way that you would take care of your house or your car, you take care of your body, and it doesn’t need to be about changing your body. It doesn’t need to be about looking different in any way, shape or form, because everything that has happened to you is important. Everything, every scar, every injury, everything that is weird, everything that is old, everything that has changed, all of it is important. And I think what I feel more than anything is that it’s time for us to stop looking to these outdated systems, to give us the future that we can create together. [00:45:45][78.0]

Jameela: [00:45:46] That’s amazing. That’s really beautiful and what has been the actual impact on your mental health and your spiritual well-being of having taken up yoga so many days a week for the past? You know, [00:46:03][16.1]

Jessamyn: [00:46:04] I don’t even know that I could really adequately summarize all of the changes in myself because I think that I’m well, OK. What I would say, in short, is that before I started practicing yoga, I was a little bit angry all the time. I was always a little bit mad about something and [00:46:22][18.3]

Jameela: [00:46:22] why the world is a great place, [00:46:23][1.2]

Jessamyn: [00:46:24] right? Well, there’s always that thing. It’s like it’s OK, I think, to be angry. I think being angry is a part of the human experience. But I thought that I was supposed to be angry all the time, that if I was not being critical of the world around me, then I was not really paying attention to what’s going on. And now I really feel like everything happens for a reason and that good and bad have to be there, that the darkness has to be there in order to be able to experience the light. And I feel gratitude in moments that are very, very difficult for me. And so I think that it has allowed me to be more OK with the fact that there are ups and downs in my mental health, I think that were always kind of searching for like that final resting point or like like, yes, I’m OK permanently. I never need to think about this mental health thing ever again. And to my knowledge, that’s not really a thing short of death. So that I’m kind of like, as long as I’m alive, we’re good. I’m doing good, like and I can try to find something to smile at. And when the shit smells, it’s OK for me to complain about it. It’s OK for me to not like it. And I don’t have to be anything for any one person before that. I definitely before I started practicing, I definitely used to feel like I need to fix myself so that I can be acceptable and be accepted by the other people in my life. And now I don’t really feel that way. [00:47:57][92.0]

Jameela: [00:47:58] I think that’s incredibly empowering, and I and I hope that anyone who’s listening to this who may be, you know, thinks that, look, they don’t look like, I don’t know, Gwyneth Paltrow and I don’t know that’s what people are people on this because they’re trying to look like I have no idea. But, you know, because you don’t look that certain way that this isn’t worthwhile for you, that the that your end goal is too far away. You know, you want to lose 100 pounds or 20 pounds or you want your you want this part of your body to be super defined, but that will take too long. If that’s the lens through which you’re looking at all movement, then of course you’re going to be daunted. Of course you’re not going to do anything. But if you think about it as I will definitely feel better in an hour, after an hour of exercise, a half an hour of exercise, whatever you can do than I did before, I will feel more in control of my life. I will have chemicals in my brain that are actively enhancing the quality of my life. If I just do this exercise, then you will have an instant reward. I love instant rewards. I hate long term fucking promises. I love I love instant gratification. And that’s why I now like exercise, because I immediately have acquired something that I didn’t have before from moving on just for twenty minutes. Just go for a gentle walk. You know, I don’t do yoga and I think maybe that’s because I haven’t felt comfortable in yoga spaces and and maybe you’re giving me some more clarity as to why. Because I still feel as though is a lot about aesthetic and maybe I need to come to your yoga classes in order to feel safer. [00:49:34][95.9]

Jessamyn: [00:49:36] I feel like all yoga. I feel like all the postures are literally an opportunity to just connect with your breath. And so I feel like as long as you’re breathing, you’re practicing yoga. And I think that some things like especially like everything that you’re saying about exercise is so real, like just moving your body just to feel good, like human beings are meant to be in motion. We’re meant to be leaping and lunging and and hunting and like going through this huge life experience. And instead, all day most of us sit at desks, we hold devices, we pretend to be robots ultimately. So I feel like anything that you can do that reminds you that you’re not a robot is the best thing that you could possibly do. And it doesn’t need to be about looking different or doing anything different. It’s just like kind of whatever. But yoga, I mean, I do think it obviously has had a really profound impact for me. And I think, you know, what you’re saying about the esthetic is so legit. And I’m like, yo, if it does not feel real, if it feels like just some bullshit, please don’t. Just don’t. But but at the same time is also part of me that’s like whatever that is, is somebodies yoga. That’s somebody experience. So it’s all it’s all a wash. It all comes out in the end. [00:50:50][74.7]

Jameela: [00:50:58] Talk to me about weed. I want to talk to you about weed, because you’ve had you’ve had anxiety for a lot of your life and and yoga has been a big part of you being able to manage that anxiety. But you also use weed kind of in a holistic way to enhance your yoga practice, as well as as well as to help with your anxiety. And you’ve become you’ve been an advocate for a really long time. A more on the kind of private side before. And I feel as though now you’re becoming more vocal about it. But can we talk a little bit about about what weed has meant to to your life, to your mental health, the benefits you see, because obviously we live in a country that it’s fucking insane when it comes to marijuana. And we have you know, we have predominantly white people starting legal weed farms in the same state that we still have people locked up for having one joint on the and they’re locked away for 30 years. We put pedophiles away for eight years. You know, it just doesn’t this this country makes me want to smash my head through a window sometimes, but it [00:52:03][64.7]

Jessamyn: [00:52:03] all reflects white supremacist values. And so what [00:52:06][2.5]

Jameela: [00:52:06] A hundred percent. [00:52:06][0.0]

Jessamyn: [00:52:07] I would say about weed is that I never like I never talked about it openly. And I realized that people would be like. Like what what are the wellness practices that you’re doing in your life? And when I talk only about yoga, I was like, I am not giving people the full picture. So talking about weed has just been like, I want to be honest about the way that I the all the ways that I take care of myself and that this is such a crucial piece of it. But I also realized that part of why I was talking about it was out of fear of the stigma of what it would mean to be a cannabis user. And this idea that like it means that you’re stupid or slow or like unproductive, that you’re not a valuable member of society. And I just felt like beyond the fact that none of that is true, I realized that my silence was my cosign on that idea. It was me saying, yes, I agree with this. I do think that I should feel ashamed of this. I think this medicine is dangerous and that that cosign was then keeping people locked up in jail that I am a part again with. I’m saying over and over again by pointing out the ways, but I’m a part of the system. I was like, I am a part of the system that allows for people to be incarcerated while they while people are becoming billionaires off of cannabis. And so I was like, no, I need to figure out a way to I need to figure out a way to communicate with other people about this and also make space for anyone who feels that same shame and stigma to not feel that anymore. It’s why I started my organization We Go High, we are intentionally based in North Carolina because North Carolina is a state where cannabis is still illegal. And so we’re very much aware of the way that cannabis prohibition plays a role in people’s access to medicine. And we see that each individual user is an advocate, is an activist, and has the potential to completely shift the paradigm. And I think that that kind of de-stigmatization is really the work that’s needed more so than like the legalization of anything we have to be destigmatizing. But personally, I started using cannabis around the same time that I started practicing yoga, and they have been intertwined for me for much of my practice. And I talk about this a little bit in Yoke, but the idea that cannabis and yoga go together is so not a new idea. It’s literally like yoga and weed have pretty much always gone together. And it’s always been a thing and I had no idea, honestly. But for me, the weed I think of it is like sweeping out the cobwebs. It like clears out the dirt in my mind so that I’m able to relax and actually be present to the way that my breath in my body moved together. And I’m able to experience a deeper meditation and be able to be in the present moment in a different way. but I think that dosage is so crucial in, like, knowing knowing what you’re using and feeling comfortable with it, because if you don’t feel good about it, it’s not going to feel the way that I just described it. [00:55:27][200.0]

Jameela: [00:55:28] No, absolutely. And I think, you know, I think a lot of people have very bad reactions to marijuana, regardless of the strain that they use. And some people become paranoid or some people have, you know, adverse reactions. And so maybe it’s not for you. But I do think that if we could just destigmatize cannabis, we can learn more about it and find out more about what might work for us. What level of THC to CBD might be helpful. I mean, weed saved my life several times. I because, you know, I had some really, really horrific things happen within my family a couple of years ago, just beyond beyond traumatic and and I was having to work at the same time in a very, very public job where I have to be calm and attentive and I have to be funny and uplifting. And I was just like having I was truly having a complete meltdown because of what was happening to my family. And I was trying to hide all of this because I also didn’t want the newspapers to find out about it. I didn’t want to talk about it on social media. And so and so one day I was handed some weed and it wasn’t just it wasn’t just from someone random. It was like a proper I think it was the brand Dosist, you know, so so we knew where it was from. We knew exactly the amount of weed. We knew how I’d be able to function at work. But I’ve been teetotal my entire life. I had never drunk alcohol or had any any drugs. And I think I was like in my early 30s and and someone handed me this weed and within an hour I was able to center myself again and my panic attacks. And so after that, for the for the you know, the next few months, I started to be able to use weed for that anxiety because it was so out of control. And I and I found it so strange that I felt embarrassed to tell anyone that that’s what I was using. And yeah whenever I tell anyone that I use anxiety medication that is prescribed by a doctor, which is highly addictive and hugely problematic and have all can have all kinds of impacts on your brain. And by the way, I’m an advocate for both. I’m an advocate for those patients. Again, they have saved my life. Last February, I had a nervous breakdown. I was in a state that weed was illegal, so I couldn’t access any weed. And that completely made me, uh, I’m not a weed dependent person. But in that kind of crisis, I definitely needed something to override my anxious brain. I could not access any weed legally. I didn’t want to do it illegally because, you know, I’m well, I’m not a citizen of America, so I had to be fucking careful. So I was given so I said I was given antianxiety meds that completely saved my life. But I was amazed at how well received these anxiety meds. As I said, as brilliant and effective as they can be, they are hugely dangerous and can be a slippery slope into an opioid crisis in your life. You have to take these things very, very carefully. I was amazed a non-addictive natural substance is so stigmatized and they both had the same impact on my life. And and when I have severe anxiety, I will always flip between the two. But the how detrimental these mainstream medical drugs are that we are given for anxiety we don’t need to go further into it. I’ve already said that. But no, I just I just I feel very appreciative. I feel very appreciative of anyone who can talk about talk about weed in the holistic sense. I think, you know, that people just look at it as a lazy person’s way out, as someone who wasn’t willing to do the work. But sometimes you can’t do the work because your brain is so fucking scrambled. You need something to just kind of stop time for a moment. [00:59:15][227.0]

Jessamyn: [00:59:16] That’s exactly right. That’s the thing that is so interesting is that weed is always medicinal. Even I believe that all use is medicinal. But even whenever you believe it to be recreational or like you’re hanging out with friends, dosing in groups has been used as a spiritual practice in so many spiritual traditions, not just any one cultural tradition, like it’s all over the world and it always has been. And the only reason that we think anything else is because of a very intentional prohibition campaign that literally launched like at the start of the 20th century. And we still are experiencing the effects of it. There’s so much research about this. And I think that making people more aware of the way that we all play a part in upholding the prohibition idea of cannabis being something that is just for people who are lazy or stupid, the ways in which that ideology is deeply racialized and that has been used to marginalize black and brown communities. Like just being really clear about that, I feel like it doesn’t even matter. I’m not even advocating that everybody use cannabis in the same way that I wouldn’t advocate that everybody use prescription drugs. But if you need it, it’s there when you need prescription drugs. I’m grateful that they’re there when you need cannabis. I’m glad it’s there and it is there to heal you through these really difficult parts of life that are supposed to happen. But sometimes the shit, the mud is too deep. You know, sometimes you literally cannot walk forward. It’s like being in quicksand and being able to loosen yourself. That’s why there are so many people who are daily users of cannabis who have experienced far reaching trauma that there would be no way. To you, you can’t explain it to your. You can’t tell your boss about it, you can’t, like, explain it to a stranger, it’s just something that like, you know, and ultimately, you know, that you have to keep going in your life. And being able to do that by whatever means necessary is really important. And I could literally talk about this all day. So I’m stopping myself. [01:01:15][118.7]

Jameela: [01:01:17] I think that’s incredible. And I love how open you are about it. And I think that it’s incredibly important to show your workings out. You know, you know, as I said, that the the things that you emanate and the peace that you emanate when I see you online, it was very helpful for me to learn that part of that is also weed. And weed is not a cheat, weed is just a it’s a helpful addition to your life. And I really feel that way about it. Might be a glass of red wine for someone [01:01:44][27.7]

Jessamyn: [01:01:45] that’s exactly right. [01:01:46][0.8]

Jameela: [01:01:47] It truly that could be. It could be whatever. I just I the older I get, I think I used to be really judgmental. And I think similarly to you, I think I used to uphold a lot of these stigmas and I used to be really like smug and proud of myself and never drink and never do any drugs. [01:02:00][13.1]

Jessamyn: [01:02:01] Same. Yes, same same [01:02:03][2.2]

Jameela: [01:02:04] We were conditioned this way. And I think also you and I didn’t want to be the cliche of, you know, I think that’s also why you and I struggled with the fact that we were bigger as kids. You know, I think of my eating disorder is like, oh, I need to I need to just fit in. I don’t want to draw any attention to myself. I don’t want to be the stereotypical brown girl who’s also who’s also like the fat girl. And I don’t want to I don’t want to be the brown person who does the drugs, you know, I want to be them. I want to be a leader. I want to be the best I have to be. I can’t be mediocre. I have to be better than all of the white people not to be accepted by that. And so there has been a big part for shunning a lot of these things. [01:02:39][34.6]

Jessamyn: [01:02:41] Absolutely. Can I ask you just briefly, I know we’re running out of time. I just want to tell you, are you a Gemini, a LEO or a Sagittarius? Any of those? [01:02:48][7.3]

Jameela: [01:02:51] None of those. I’m a I’m a Pisces. [01:02:51][0.5]

Jessamyn: [01:02:52] No you’re not. What’s your moon and rising sign. [01:02:55][2.8]

Jameela: [01:02:56] I have no idea mate I’m not I’m not clued up on astrology, I’m afraid. [01:03:00][4.4]

Jessamyn: [01:03:01] Oh my gosh. I’m I’m going to I’m going to send you a link to Costar. I’m so curious about your natal chart. I literally please. That’s I’m just that’s all I’m going to say about that. Pisces. Wow. I love that. My goodness, I love that. [01:03:12][11.6]

Jameela: [01:03:13] Yeah. Maybe I’m a big ol Pisces. A water watery slippery little fish. [01:03:18][4.9]

Jessamyn: [01:03:18] Yes. I love that. [01:03:20][1.2]

Jameela: [01:03:21] Very much so um anyway, OK, I, I want to let you get back to your you’re very, very busy lifestyles. I will get back to my lazy lifestyle. So Jessamyn Stanley, before you leave, would you please tell me what do you weigh. [01:03:35][13.6]

Jessamyn: [01:03:37] I weigh the legacy of my ancestors, the gift that it is to carry their legacy and the opportunity and the power to offer the baton to others and watch other people live their light as well. [01:04:00][22.5]

Jameela: [01:04:02] Beautiful. You are beautiful. Thank you for the work that you do, everyone, please, buy Jessamyn’s books, go and follow her on social media and and free yourself. Liberate yourself from all of the lies that you’ve been told. She’s the fucking best. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Aaron Finnegan and Kimie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. We also have a bonus series exclusively on Stitcher Premium called Ask Jameela Anything check it out. You can get a free month to Stitcher Premium by going to stitcher.com/premium And using the promo code I Weigh. Lastly, over at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at one eight one eight six six zero five five four three or email us what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our fabulous listeners. [01:05:10][68.3]

Listener: [01:05:12] I weigh being in nature, being a loving sister and friend and practicing law. I weigh overthinking kindness, movies and chocolate. I weigh passion, determination, anxiety and positivity. [01:05:12][0.0]

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