EP. 8 — Sexual Harassment

JENNA [00:00:00] I’m Jenna Fischer. 

ANGELA [00:00:05] And I’m Angela Kinsey. 

JENNA [00:00:06] We were on “The Office” together. 

ANGELA [00:00:07] And were best friends. 

JENNA [00:00:08] And now we’re doing the Ultimate Office rewatch podcast just for you. 

ANGELA [00:00:13] Each week we will break down an episode of the office and give exclusive behind the scenes stories that only two people who were there can tell you. 

JENNA [00:00:19] We’re the Office Ladies. … Welcome to “The Office Ladies.” 

ANGELA [00:00:25] Welcome, everybody. 

JENNA [00:00:26] Today, we’re talking about the episode, “Sexual Harassment.”. 

ANGELA [00:00:30] Oh, it’s a doozy. 

JENNA [00:00:32] And if you’re listening with your kids, we’re going to try to keep it clean, folks. 

ANGELA [00:00:36] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:00:36] Maybe you want to prescreen this one. 

ANGELA [00:00:38] Yeah, I know the subject matter alone. 

JENNA [00:00:40] I know. Well, they had to walk a line when they were writing and making this episode. And we’re going to walk a line today-. 

ANGELA [00:00:46] Talking about it. 

JENNA [00:00:48] Angela, I see you’re eating a pop tart. 

ANGELA [00:00:51] Yes, I am. It’s a brown sugar pop tart. 

JENNA [00:00:52] Brown sugar. I didn’t know cinnamon or brown sugar. It has some brown icing on it. 

ANGELA [00:00:56] This is, I think it’s the cinnamon brown sugar pop tart. Am I right, guys in the booth? Yeah. It’s the cinnamon brown sugar pop tart. 

JENNA [00:01:03] This has been a sticking point in my friendship with Angela for a long time, which is that she can eat things like pop tarts, donuts, pancakes for breakfast. 

ANGELA [00:01:11] This is about time for me to tell you. I also had two muffins before the pop tart. 

JENNA [00:01:15] It is. It is. Alright, guys, today is a “Sexual Harassment,” Season 2, Episode 2. This was written by B.J. Novak and directed by Ken Kwapis. You’ve probably heard those names before. I want to point out in my first fast fact that B.J. Novak wrote “Diversity Day” and Ken Co-ops directed it. 

ANGELA [00:01:37] So they already had a little bit of a great back and forth. 

JENNA [00:01:40] Yes, they are paired together again. I guess Gregg assigned B.J. the script of “Sexual Harassment” because of the good job he had done on “Diversity Day.” 

ANGELA [00:01:49] On touchy subjects. 

JENNA [00:01:50] Yes. Oh, well. And then Ken was asked to direct it. I think it makes sense. Ken Kwapis is such a gentleman. 

ANGELA [00:01:58] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:01:59] B.J. is so smart. He’s able to walk that line so well. I think this was the perfect coupling. 

ANGELA [00:02:04] I do, too. 

JENNA [00:02:04] Bring the episode to life. Here’s a quick summary for this episode. When an upper-level manager is let go because of sexual harassment, corporate requires everyone in the company to undergo sexual harassment training. Michael’s crude friend, Todd Packer, comes into the office and starts harassing everyone. Kind of a twofer there. 

ANGELA [00:02:24] There you go. In years later, we would have our own seminars that NBC would have us attend. We’ve talked about this and they would use clips from this episode of “What Not to Do” at work. 

JENNA [00:02:36] And other episodes. 

ANGELA [00:02:36] And other episodes. We’re like, Oh, it’s us again. Oh, yeah, we should. No one should be doing that. Okay. Okay, good. 

JENNA [00:02:42] And also, you know, after reading the script, the network originally wanted to air “Sexual Harassment” as our season premiere for Season 2. I know! 

ANGELA [00:02:50] Probably good that we eased into that one. 

JENNA [00:02:52] It is because this brings me to my second fast fact, which is that this episode originally aired with a warning. 

ANGELA [00:02:59] It did? 

JENNA [00:03:00] Yes. Which is very unusual for network television. 

ANGELA [00:03:03] Oh, I didn’t know that. 

JENNA [00:03:04] It aired with a warning before the episode that said, “This episode contains adult content and subject matter.” 

ANGELA [00:03:10] Oh. 

JENNA [00:03:10] Yeah. And you know why? Alright, parents, this is where you’re gonna want to start. 

ANGELA [00:03:16] Maybe, maybe, put the earmuffs on. 

JENNA [00:03:19] Maybe mute us for 15 seconds. 

ANGELA [00:03:19] Earmuffs on the kids. 

JENNA [00:03:21] It all came down to the word “boner.”. 

ANGELA [00:03:23] Yes! With Phyllis. 

JENNA [00:03:23] With Phyllis. The scene with Phyllis at the end, when Steve says something like “Now, I’m just afraid I’ll get a boner.” The network wanted to change it to “I’m afraid I’ll get a schwing!” … And they, B.J. and -. 

ANGELA [00:03:39] What is it “Wayne’s World?”

JENNA [00:03:39] Yeah! 

ANGELA [00:03:40] NBC is like, let’s make it “Wayne’s World.”

JENNA [00:03:43] Let’s make it a “schwing!”. 

ANGELA [00:03:44] “I’m afraid I’ll get a schwing!” 

JENNA [00:03:44] Yeah. And B.J. fought to keep “boner” in the episode. The warning was their way of having a compromise. We were surprised the “clitoris” made it in the episode. 

ANGELA [00:03:53] I mean, there’s a whole runner with a blow-up doll. 

JENNA [00:03:56] Right?! 

ANGELA [00:03:57] Pam’s supposed to kiss a blow-up doll. There’s to me many red flags here. 

JENNA [00:04:02] A lot of stuff happening. 

ANGELA [00:04:02] But they got stuck on “boner.”. 

JENNA [00:04:05] They got stuck on “boner.” 

ANGELA [00:04:06] Sorry. 

JENNA [00:04:07] Oh, boy. 

ANGELA [00:04:08] There’s too many “that’s what she says” in this. 

JENNA [00:04:10] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:04:10] OK, parents. 

JENNA [00:04:11] That could be a drinking game for this episode. Wow. 

ANGELA [00:04:14] We don’t condone that. 

JENNA [00:04:14] This is immature. OK. 

ANGELA [00:04:16] OK. 

JENNA [00:04:17] But even still, even with the warning, there was one network in Kentucky that refused to air this episode. 

ANGELA [00:04:22] Oh, really? 

JENNA [00:04:23] Yeah. So we. 

ANGELA [00:04:25] Sorry, Kentucky. 

JENNA [00:04:26] We got pulled off the air. 

ANGELA [00:04:27] You can watch it on Netflix right now. 

JENNA [00:04:29] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:04:29] Folks in Kentucky. That is so funny to me because the word “boner,” sorry to go back there, is so funny. Phyllis’ reaction to the word “boner.” 

JENNA [00:04:42] Yes. It wouldn’t be the same if it was “schwing.”. 

ANGELA [00:04:42] It wouldn’t be the same. It wouldn’t be the same. And for me, what made that moment funny was Phyllis. Her look to Michael when he said it was hilarious. So OK. Moving on! 

JENNA [00:04:53] We can talk more about that scene later in the episode. 

ANGELA [00:04:56] Okay. 

JENNA [00:04:56] We can really, I have a lot to say about that scene. 

ANGELA [00:04:59] Oh, gosh, more, okay. 

JENNA [00:05:00] My third fast fact is that we get to meet Todd Packer. Finally! 

ANGELA [00:05:06] Yes! 

JENNA [00:05:08] The Todd Packer in the flesh comes into the office played by Dave Koechner. 

[00:05:10] Okay. So I have known Dave Koechner. Oh, my gosh. Maybe 16 years. I’ve known him a really long time. We met back at “Improv Olympic.” He had taken “Second City” in Chicago, and he knew Steve from “Second City,” and Nancy, Steve’s wife, Nancy. I called Dave last night and I was like, “Dave, we’re gonna do “Sexual Harassment!” He was like, “Do you have people come in the booth?” I was like, “We do, Dave. Can you come in tomorrow?” And he’s like, “Naw, I’m working.” I was like, “OK.” And then I said, “Oh, Dave, can I record our conversation?” He’s like, “Yeah, sure. Tell me when you’re ready to go.”. 

JENNA [00:05:41] Oh, this is great! 

ANGELA [00:05:42] Yes, it’s great. So I did this swipe up on my iPhone. 

JENNA [00:05:45] Okay. 

ANGELA [00:05:45] You know, where your flashlight is? 

JENNA [00:05:46] Sure. 

ANGELA [00:05:47] You know, underneath, like, by your flashlight. 

JENNA [00:05:49] I know my phone. 

ANGELA [00:05:49] Okay, there’s a little record button. 

JENNA [00:05:51] Okay. 

ANGELA [00:05:51] So I hit the record button. And I was like, “Let’s do this!” 

JENNA [00:05:54] I- feeling like this isn’t going where we’re hoping. 

ANGELA [00:05:56] OK, Dave and I talked for half an hour. 

JENNA [00:05:58] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:05:59] I have 30 minutes. 

JENNA [00:06:00] Okay. 

ANGELA [00:06:01] Of me filming my screen. 

JENNA [00:06:03] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:06:04] With no sound. 

JENNA [00:06:05] OK. 

ANGELA [00:06:05] OK. It’s a record button. How was I supposed to know? It doesn’t record sound. 

JENNA [00:06:09] I don’t know where to begin with this one. Angela. 

ANGELA [00:06:12] Is it because I’m 100 years old? 

JENNA [00:06:13] Well, it’s just, that, that’s sort of like when my mom wrote me my first e-mail. 

ANGELA [00:06:19] Yeah? 

JENNA [00:06:20] She called me on the phone and said, “Why haven’t you responded to my email that I sent you?”. 

ANGELA [00:06:25] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:06:25] And I said, “Well, I never got your email.  What email address did you send it to?” And she said, “I sent it to you. I sent to Jenna.” And I said, “I don’t, I don’t understand.” And she said, “I opened the email box and it said to and I wrote ‘Jenna’.” She just sent an e-mail to Jenna. That is very similar to what you’ve done here-. 

ANGELA [00:06:44] Well, no. 

JENNA [00:06:44] With the record button on your phone. A Little bit. 

ANGELA [00:06:47] Come on. 

JENNA [00:06:47] A little bit. 

ANGELA [00:06:48] But wait a minute. 

JENNA [00:06:49] It’s kind of. 

ANGELA [00:06:50] Anyway, whatever, guys. The long story short here is: Dave, thank you so much for talking to me last night for half an hour. And I wrote down everything we talked about because it didn’t record. 

JENNA [00:07:00] You do have a gazillion note cards today-. 

ANGELA [00:07:02] I have, I-. 

JENNA [00:07:02] Angela had to move seats because she has so many note cards. 

ANGELA [00:07:06] I have so many note cards. I have lots of little fun tidbits from Dave. But I’ll save those as we go. 

JENNA [00:07:11] OK. That’s great. Something I’d like to expand on is what you were saying about Steve Carell starting at “Second City” in Chicago. I think a lot of people don’t realize the long journey that a lot of us took before we landed on “The Office” and in particular, Steve Carell. He was doing comedy in Chicago on “Second City” for a very, very long time. And then he and his wife, Nancy, they moved to New York City because she had an audition for “Saturday Night Live.” 

ANGELA [00:07:40] And she got it. 

JENNA [00:07:41] She did. 

ANGELA [00:07:41] Her and Dave we’re on “Saturday Night Live” together. So they have known each other for a really long time and journey through quite a bit. And Steve was really excited. He is actually the one who pitched Dave to Greg for Todd Packer. He was really like, you’ve got a cast, Dave Koechner. They had just done “Anchorman” together. And he just knew that they’d be off to the races and it’d be so much fun. 

JENNA [00:08:04] And their dynamic in “Anchorman” was amazing. Their chemistry there was amazing. But it makes sense because they had been schlepping through Chicago to New York to L.A. together doing comedy for close to 15 years. 

ANGELA [00:08:18] Oh, yeah. They’d known each other for so long. 

JENNA [00:08:20] And you were in those circles, Angela? I never got into that. I never did the comedy improv sketch comedy thing. 

ANGELA [00:08:26] Yes, I had met Dave years ago at “Improv Olympic” out here in Los Angeles. It was called “IOWest.” And he was part of a phenomenal improv show called “Beer Shark Mice.” These guys were amazing. They were like the best of the best. It would sell out. It would be standing room only. They were amazing. It was Mike Coleman, Pat Finn, Neil Flynn and Pete Hulne, Dave Koechner. And then also Paul Vaillancourt. They were just phenomenal. 

JENNA [00:08:54] Wow. What a show. 

ANGELA [00:08:56] It was. It was great. So, like, listen, if you’re an improv nerd out there, these guys are the best of the best. I was working in the light booth. I was in charge of calling their lights. And I was really intimidated because the person in the light booth makes it fade to black when you feel that the show has wrapped up. So what? 

JENNA [00:09:13] It’s kind of on you to decide. 

ANGELA [00:09:14] It’s on me! And here I am like-. 

JENNA [00:09:16] You’re like a person lowering the curtain at the end of the show. 

ANGELA [00:09:19] Yes! And I’m just like a newbie at the theater. Like, I’m like, really? You’re gonna trust me? It was there, no one else? And so I was calling lights and I really felt like the show wrapped up. And it was about 30 minutes and I pulled it to black and they were like, what? And then afterwards, Dave and everyone was like, “Ang, we had a whole other round to go. You called the lights way too soon.” And I was like, “I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry.” I felt so horrible. Alright. So it’s the next week. And Dave comes up to me and says, “Ang, let us go about 45 minutes tonight.” I’m like, “OK, Dave.” Got it. Set my timer.

JENNA [00:09:56] You set a timer?

ANGELA [00:09:57] I set a timer! 

JENNA [00:09:58] That’s very Jenna of you. 

ANGELA [00:09:59] Thank you. 

JENNA [00:10:00] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:10:01] I didn’t want to get it wrong. So anyway, I’m up in the light booth at 39 minutes. I thought they had their out, Jenna. 

JENNA [00:10:07] OK. 

ANGELA [00:10:07] I did not pull lights. 

JENNA [00:10:08] You did, no! 

ANGELA [00:10:09] No! And then they went to 45 minutes and then it was almost an hour. 

JENNA [00:10:17] What?! 

ANGELA [00:10:17] I didn’t I want to pull the lights!  I didn’t, I was too nervous. I don’t know, I froze. 

JENNA [00:10:18] They’re probably just out there just flailing on stage. 

ANGELA [00:10:22] It was getting awkward, and Dave walks backstage and someone had left. I don’t know, a spare tire to like a truck or a jeep. It was enormous. So Dave gets this giant tire and he rolls it across the stage into the audience and he’s like, “That’s our show, you guys!” And I was like, “Oh, crap. Oh, crap.” 

JENNA [00:10:42] What? Did you, when the tire went across the stage, did you finally go to black, Ang? 

ANGELA [00:10:45] I did, I did. 

JENNA [00:10:46] OK. So you got his signal then? 

ANGELA [00:10:48] I got it. I got it. “Dave, the tire. I got it.” And I went backstage. I was like, “You guys!” And we all sort of cracking up. And they still talk about it. They still talk about the tire. Anyway, I just love those guys so much. And believe it or not, I did call lights for them a few more times. They got their official person. But that is how I met Dave Koechner. 

JENNA [00:11:06] Didn’t Greg Daniels go to a few of those shows? I mean, maybe not Dave’s in particular, but. 

ANGELA [00:11:11] Oh, no. Greg loved supporting like small, improv theaters and a lot of improvisers ended up on our show. So I know Rainn Wilson would make fun of me, but I’d be like, “Oh, you know, whoever actor is showing up. I did a Sunday show with him.” He’d be like, “Did you do improv with him, Angela?” I’d be like, “Yes, Rain!”. 

JENNA [00:11:31] Well, Rain and I were the two classically trained theater actors. 

ANGELA [00:11:34] Oh, don’t we know it? 

JENNA [00:11:36] In the group. 

ANGELA [00:11:36] Oh, don’t we know it? I heard quite a bit about it. Yeah. All right. Before things take a turn here, maybe we should go to a break. 

JENNA [00:11:43] Yeah, let’s go to a break. … And we’re back talking about the “Sexual Harassment” episode. 

ANGELA [00:11:50] Here we go. 

JENNA [00:11:51] Here we go. Buckle in everyone. 

ANGELA [00:11:52] Buckle in, as they say. 

JENNA [00:11:52] In rewatching this episode. Angela, I was very uncomfortable. 

ANGELA [00:11:59] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:11:59] I was more squirmy during this than “Diversity Day.”. 

ANGELA [00:12:05] Well, yeah, I mean, I don’t know. They’re both equally squirmy for me. 

JENNA [00:12:09] But then I was squirming during “Hot Girl.” I, I think that I had forgotten how really cringy and uncomfortable the show can get sometimes. 

ANGELA [00:12:19] Oh, we pushed it. We pushed it to the line and then went over the line. 

JENNA [00:12:24] How did this show get on the air? I mean, I know this particular episode got on with a warning, but in general, what was going on? 

ANGELA [00:12:32] I don’t know,  I mean, you know, I grew up overseas and I grew up with a lot of British television, and they definitely pushed the line. And I think the show was in the spirit of the BBC version. And I don’t know, I, I think like some of the cringing moments that you end up laughing. I don’t know, I, I love it. 

JENNA [00:12:52] I know that Kevin Reilly, who was at NBC at the time, was a huge champion for our show. I really credit him with us sticking around. He believed in us. And there were a lot of people there who didn’t get it and who didn’t think that this was a good idea. 

ANGELA [00:13:07] No, it’s true. He fought for us. And when we finally won an Emmy for “Best Comedy Ensemble,” we all went backstage for photos. And the guys, the cast, picked up Kevin Reilly up in the air. And that’s the photo that was in the L.A. Times because we all knew-

JENNA [00:13:24] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:13:25] He put his neck on the line for us. And I mean, I’ll always be grateful to Kevin for that. 

JENNA [00:13:29] The episode begins with Michael walking up to Jim’s desk to see if he has received his hilarious email foreword. 

ANGELA [00:13:36] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:13:38] Michael has a talking head where he declares himself the king of forwards. 

ANGELA [00:13:40] And he says, “That’s how I like to do business.”. 

JENNA [00:13:43] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:13:43] I have a funny story about a behind the scenes moment that happened on set while we were filming a big group scene in the bullpen talking about these email forwards. And-. 

JENNA [00:13:53] Was I there? 

ANGELA [00:13:53] You were there. 

JENNA [00:13:55] Ok, remind me. 

ANGELA [00:13:56] Everyone was there. Everyone was there. Kelly was there. Still with an up-do. When is the episode where Kelly becomes Mindy? 

JENNA [00:14:01] Exactly. 

ANGELA [00:14:02] That’s, that’s what we need to look for. No! So this is an episode that John Krasinski and I will never forget because he about fell out of his chair at 9 minutes, 16 seconds. You know, we’re talking about the e-mail forwards and Michael’s really upset that they want him to stop doing this. And I say “I hate them. You send me these filthy e-mails and you say, forward them to 10 people or you’ll have bad luck.” Right? 

JENNA [00:14:25] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:14:26] That’s my line. So we had been working on this scene for a while and then we went to lunch and we came back. 

JENNA [00:14:31] Oh, that’s always so hard to pick up a scene. 

ANGELA [00:14:34] Yes. 

JENNA [00:14:34] With lunch in between. 

ANGELA [00:14:35] Yes. And I think it was like around 3:00 o’clock in the afternoon. Everyone’s real off at that time. Everyone’s a little tired. People are a little bit more punchy. 

JENNA [00:14:43] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:14:44] And we’re in a big group scene. So here’s the thing you should know about me. I was born in Louisiana. My family’s from Texas and Louisiana. I have a really, really hard time saying a vowel in front of an L and two times in my career on “The Office,” they almost dropped a line because I could not say it. One time they actually did. I’ll save that story for later. It was between Andy Bernard and myself. I couldn’t say the line. I just kept sounding like such a hillbilly that they just dropped the line. But this line, I said, “I hate them. You send me these filthy e-mails,” and John about fell out of his chair. He went, “The south has arrived!” And I was like, “What, what?” I didn’t even hear it. He was like “Angela.” And like eight of you turned and looked at me. And at the same time, you’re like, “You said, filthy.”. 

JENNA [00:15:33] Filthy. 

ANGELA [00:15:34] And I said, “how do you say it?” And you’re like, “filthy.” And I had to, like, really concentrate, filthy, filthy, because I automatically want to say, filthy, filthy. But somewhere there’s footage of me saying, you send me these filthy emails and John lost it. 

JENNA [00:15:52] You and John had a great relationship on the show. You guys were big brother, kid sister. 

ANGELA [00:15:58] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:15:59] And it was so sweet. I loved your banter. And I loved. Just I don’t know. You guys were really cute. You would tease one another. 

ANGELA [00:16:06] I know he felt like my big brother, even though he is like younger than me. 

JENNA [00:16:09] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:16:09] But he did. He felt like my big brother that I teased and he loved it. When I slipped into Southern drawl, he would be like, “Well hello?” He loved it. 

JENNA [00:16:19] So next up, Todd Packer comes in the office and boy, does Dave Koechner own a room when he enters that room. 

ANGELA [00:16:26] Yes. Dave told me last night on the phone, he said, “Todd Packer just comes in and blows up your world and then kaboom, leaves no consequences.” 

JENNA [00:16:34] Mic drop! See you later. 

ANGELA [00:16:35] And then he’s out. I have a little tidbit about Dave. Oh, tell me. OK. So Dave told me he actually auditioned for Michael Scott. 

JENNA [00:16:43] What?! 

ANGELA [00:16:43] Yes. He had known Greg Daniels for years. He had done a pilot for one of Greg’s writers on “King of the Hill.”. 

JENNA [00:16:50] Yeah? 

ANGELA [00:16:50] So he knew Greg for a long time. And they brought him in for Michael Scott. And he said, “Ang, I was obsessed with the BBC version. And all I had in my head was Ricky Gervais. I couldn’t do it any other way.” 

JENNA [00:17:04] So he was doing a little bit of an impersonation of Ricky. 

ANGELA [00:17:07] Yes. And I think a lot of people did that. That came in. But Steve had not seen it. And I think that really helped him kind of make his own person. 

JENNA [00:17:15] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:17:15] But he told me when they brought him in for Todd Packer, he was so excited because, yes, it was based on Finchy. Right, in the BBC version. 

JENNA [00:17:22] Oh yeah. So in the BBC version, David Brent has a friend named Chris Finch and they call him “Finchy” and he is the Todd Packer of the British show. Basically, it’s just this one-sided best friendship. And if you can believe Chris Finch is worse than Todd Packer. 

ANGELA [00:17:38] He is worse. 

JENNA [00:17:38] If you watch the British show, you think it can’t get worse than Todd Packer? 

ANGELA [00:17:42] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:17:43] If you’re looking for that. Check out the British version. 

ANGELA [00:17:45] Exactly. Dave said that he was so excited to come in for Todd Packer because they were just like, “Dave, do whatever.” And he just was like, “Oh, I got this. I got this.” Him and Steve had just done “Anchorman,” as we talked about. So he knew it was just going to be playtime. I asked Dave, I was like, “What? What is something you remember about that first day as Todd Packer?” And he said, “I remember the writing. I remember reading that script and thinking how fantastic it was. And I thought, when you have writing this good, anything is possible. I can go anywhere because what I have is so solid.” And I said, “Did you improvise any of that?” He said, “Honestly, I can’t remember because I remember thinking the writing was so good.” He said, “If you see things that feel spontaneous,” he said the physicality of Todd Packer is very easy for him. 

JENNA [00:18:35] Is him? 

ANGELA [00:18:35] Is him. 

JENNA [00:18:36] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:18:36] You know, like all the stuff he does with Michael, the physical stuff, that’s just Dave bringing life to Todd Packer. But he really just, was just blown away by how good the writing was. 

JENNA [00:18:49] I remember when he came in, I was legitimately shocked and stunned. 

ANGELA [00:18:53] Why? 

JENNA [00:18:54] Well, our show had been very quiet. 

ANGELA [00:18:57] Oh, right. Oh right. He’s just a burst of energy. 

JENNA [00:18:59] And he was so loud. 

ANGELA [00:19:02] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:19:02] And so a lot of my reactions to him are real. They’re like, “What? Why are we? Why are we shouting? What is happening? Because I miss a lot. This is so wow! 

ANGELA [00:19:11] “Because I’m 75. I’m Jenna Fischer. Why are you being so loud?” I asked Dave because Michael has a line where he says that Todd Packer is his BFF best friend forever. 

JENNA [00:19:23] I saw that. 

ANGELA [00:19:26] Yeah! And I said, Dave, how does Michael, like how is he best friends with Todd Packer? He said something I thought was so sweet, actually, and just insightful into Michael. He said, “Oh, Angela.” He said, “Michael is so innocent and naive. He’s almost childlike. He doesn’t get a lot of what Todd Packer is. And how is-“ 

JENNA [00:19:48] That is such a good observation. 

ANGELA [00:19:49] Yeah! He’s like a little brother looking up to someone. 

JENNA [00:19:51] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:19:52] And maybe somewhere down the road he’ll see how inappropriate. But he’s just in this childlike, enamored phase. 

JENNA [00:19:59] Oh, I love that, Dave Koechner. 

ANGELA [00:20:02] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:20:02] OK, now it’s time to talk about that famous Jim talking head with the phrase, “What has two thumbs and hates Todd Packer, this guy.”. 

ANGELA [00:20:11] “This guy!” 

JENNA [00:20:11] Alright. That joke of like what has two thumbs and likes blank. And also the very famous line from this episode. “That’s what she said.” Those are not original jokes. We did not make those up. B.J. Novak did not write them. B.J. said those are things that he just heard in college as a college student. And he kind of dusted them off and brought them back to this episode and then they took off. I mean, especially “that’s what she said.”. 

ANGELA [00:20:37] I mean, well, that makes sense because Todd Packer is sort of like a bratty frat guy, right? 

JENNA [00:20:43] Yes. Yes. And that’s what she said had actually been on SNL. Chevy Chase had a bit where he said it. It was in “Wayne’s World.” But the origin of that joke is a British joke. But the phrase isn’t, “That’s what she said.”. 

ANGELA [00:20:56] What is it? 

JENNA [00:20:56] The phrase is, “As the actress said to the Bishop.” Did you like my-. 

ANGELA [00:21:01] That just rolls off the tongue. 

JENNA [00:21:03] Yes, but it dwindled in popularity. It was kind of no longer in use until Ricky Gervais brought it back. He used to start saying it. He used to say, “As the actress said to the bishop.” But it never quite was the same as “That’s what she said.” 

ANGELA [00:21:17] Okay. This is really off-topic. But, you know, I’m, I’m gonna have a “she should.” For myself. I’m making a home office. 

JENNA [00:21:23] Oh, I do. It’s all you talk about. 

ANGELA [00:21:25] I know. I know. I’m like constantly online and on Pinterest, looking at little sheds that I can make into a home office. And I’ve started the process. But I posted a photo of me with a shed and a fan wrote in, “Please call your shed your ‘That’s what she shed.’” 

JENNA [00:21:42] Oh, you have to! 

ANGELA [00:21:43] I know! 

JENNA [00:21:43] Someone start needle pointing a pillow right now. Please! 

ANGELA [00:21:46] Oh my gosh! 

JENNA [00:21:47] I’ll do it. I like to needlepoint. 

ANGELA [00:21:47] Will you needlepoint me a “that’s what she shed?” 

JENNA [00:21:49] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:21:50] OK. 

JENNA [00:21:51] “That’s what she shed.”. 

ANGELA [00:21:51] OK. 

JENNA [00:21:51] Oh, 100 percent. Here’s another cultural reference from this episode when Ryan takes Todd Packer down to the parking lot. 

ANGELA [00:22:01] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:22:01] To drive him somewhere because of his DUIs. He has a. WLHUNG. 

ANGELA [00:22:06] Oh, yes, right. Yes. I have this on a card. 

JENNA [00:22:09] Which of course, Todd Packer wants everyone to think says “well hung”. 

ANGELA [00:22:13] “Well Hung.” 

JENNA [00:22:13] But Ryan, says, “Oh, are you a big fan of William Hung?” Do the millennials out there know who William Hung is? Do they get this joke? I wonder because this was a very like-. 

ANGELA [00:22:23] Topical of the time kind of joke. 

JENNA [00:22:27] Yes. So William Hung was an old “American Idol” reference. He was a contestant. And he gave this horrible, yet very committed rendition of Ricky Martin’s “She Bangs.” 

ANGELA [00:22:39] Yes. Season Three. And like the judges could barely hold it together. Bless his heart!

JENNA [00:22:44] It was so pure, so honest. He was like an engineering student. Yeah. His secret passion in life was to sing. Well, this. This was before social media. And yet this went quote, unquote, viral. Yeah. This video of him auditioning and he became a huge sensation. He went on tour. He had his own-

ANGELA [00:23:03] Yeah. I think he had like a version of like a TED Talk about success. 

JENNA [00:23:07] Oh my god. 

ANGELA [00:23:08] But you can still find it because I watched it last night. 

JENNA [00:23:10] I did, too. 

ANGELA [00:23:11] William Hung. 

JENNA [00:23:12] I had to look it up because when I watched this episode, it brought up the memory of that. 

ANGELA [00:23:17] Mmhmm. Also, can we just mentioned that Todd Packer drives a red convertible Corvette? I mean, buddy. What?

JENNA [00:23:22] Yeah, I think it was supposed to be a Mustang and they couldn’t get one. And so it got changed to a Corvette. 

ANGELA [00:23:28] Well, it’s perfect. 

JENNA [00:23:29] It is pretty perfect. Also in this episode, we learn that Pam’s mom is coming into the office. And Lil Pam just keeps sneaking, looks at the door. 

ANGELA [00:23:37] I know. 

JENNA [00:23:38] It’s so cute. Pam loves her mom. 

ANGELA [00:23:40] This is going to seem like I’m being snarky to Pam’s mom. Hear me out. 

JENNA [00:23:44] OK. Well, I’m already feeling defensive. 

ANGELA [00:23:46] OK. 

JENNA [00:23:47] Pam loves her mom. 

ANGELA [00:23:48] Pam’s mom says, “Oh, is this your area?” I’m like, what? Has she never been to the office in three years? Three years? You’ve been working at Dunder Mifflin. Your mom’s never stopped by? 

JENNA [00:23:58] It makes me sad. 

ANGELA [00:24:00] Ok, just saying. I just had a moment. I’m like, why is she so surprised to see Pam’s desk? 

JENNA [00:24:04] Wow, you are angry. It’s a really good point. I mean, she lives in town. 

ANGELA [00:24:11] I have a bunch of timecode things, too. 

JENNA [00:24:14] Oh, timecode us, Angela. 

ANGELA [00:24:16] OK. At five minutes, 15 seconds, you guys. There is a fantastic shot of Michael’s desk when he’s talking to Toby. And I’ll tell you what, all you see on his desk, you see a mini billiards table. 

JENNA [00:24:30] Mmhmm. 

ANGELA [00:24:30] You see like, the silver ball clacky thingy. 

JENNA [00:24:33] Yes. Whoever wants that on their desk? 

ANGELA [00:24:35] I don’t know. 

JENNA [00:24:35] What is that for? I’ve always wondered. 

ANGELA [00:24:39] It’s probably some kind of Zen thing. 

JENNA [00:24:39] I  guess. 

ANGELA [00:24:40] Jenna, you see his Dundee! 

JENNA [00:24:43] Oh! 

ANGELA [00:24:43] Yes! There’s a great shot of his Dundee. And then what looks like it’s a green magic eight ball. And in this scene at the top of the scene, Michael is holding a giant pencil in his hand. 

JENNA [00:24:54] Oh, yeah. 

ANGELA [00:24:55] I mean-. 

JENNA [00:24:56] That little guy loves Spencer’s gifts. 

ANGELA [00:24:59] He loves his Spencer’s gifts. 

JENNA [00:25:01] It’s his favorite store. 

ANGELA [00:25:02] But can you imagine, Toby, like, wants to have a serious conversation with him, and Michael is holding an oversized pencil throughout the conversation. 

JENNA [00:25:10] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:25:11] So that I thought was just a great, great screengrab. If you want to see all the things on Michael’s desk. 

JENNA [00:25:16] OK, Ang, what’s next? 

ANGELA [00:25:18] I have another Dave Koechner story. 

JENNA [00:25:20] Oh, great. Is this another one of the stories you didn’t record on your phone last night? 

ANGELA [00:25:23] Yes, Jenna it is. 

JENNA [00:25:24] Alright, let’s hear it! 

ANGELA [00:25:25] Thank you very much. 

JENNA [00:25:26] Let’s hear it. 

ANGELA [00:25:26] When Dave got the call that they wanted him to come in for Todd Packer. Guess where he was? 

JENNA [00:25:32] Where? 

ANGELA [00:25:33] He was in Canada filming “Snakes on a Plane.” 

JENNA [00:25:36] No! Oh my gosh. 

ANGELA [00:25:40] It just made me laugh. He was like, “Yeah, I got the call. I was filming “Snakes on a Plane.” 

JENNA [00:25:43] Well, I do know that they had to really manipulate the schedule in order to make it work with him. 

ANGELA [00:25:48] Yeah, because he was filming “Snakes on a Plane.”. 

JENNA [00:25:51] Yeah, we got him for one day. We had to film all of the Todd Packer stuff in one day. 

ANGELA [00:25:55] So he could then go back to Canada and be in “Snakes on a Plane.”. 

JENNA [00:26:00] One of my favorite scenes in this episode, angela. 

ANGELA [00:26:02] Yes. 

JENNA [00:26:03] Is when, I have two. 

ANGELA [00:26:05] Ok. 

JENNA [00:26:05] They both involve Toby. 

ANGELA [00:26:06] Oh, yeah. 

JENNA [00:26:07] Okay. The first is when Toby reveals he has to do a review of the sexual harassment policy. One thing I noticed was I felt like Toby was super excited that he was going to get to run something for a change and that Michael had no choice. I don’t I just watched the scene a couple of times and I felt like I could see this little like happy glint in Paul’s eye as he was explaining to Michael that he was going to do this, period. But I also noticed that Toby’s presentation happens in the bullpen. Yes, it does not happen in the conference room. And if I remember correctly, it is because we decided that Michael would allow him to have his presentation, but not in the conference room. 

ANGELA [00:26:51] Not in his space. 

JENNA [00:26:52] Yeah, under no circumstances. Maybe I just made that up in my own head. Maybe it’s true. 

ANGELA [00:26:58] The other thing that was interesting to me that we’d never seen before is Toby does a talking head in front of the vending machine in the break room. 

JENNA [00:27:05] Oh?! 

ANGELA [00:27:05] And that is not where our talking heads ever are. They’re always in the conference room. 

JENNA [00:27:09] Toby is clearly, ever since he got thrown out of the conference room has not been invited back-. 

ANGELA [00:27:14] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:27:14] Into the conference room. I watch the deleted scenes for this. And there is a runner of Michael talking heads where he’s just talking about how much he hates Toby in different ways. 

ANGELA [00:27:24] Oh, my God. 

JENNA [00:27:25] It’s so good. I have to say, for anybody out there who is wishing there was more “Office” or wishing you could watch more of “The Office,” you actually can. It is the deleted scenes. I have been enjoying them so much. So really look for them because just these runner of talking heads from Michael were wonderful. 

ANGELA [00:27:44] Yeah, I saw some that were pretty amazing. And I wondered out there if are the webisodes are available. 

JENNA [00:27:49] Oh, yeah. You guys won an Emmy award for your episode. 

ANGELA [00:27:52] I know, we won an Emmy. 

JENNA [00:27:53] I remember that. 

ANGELA [00:27:54] For “The Accountants.”. 

JENNA [00:27:55] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:27:56] I really want some more pop tart. I have it sitting next to me, but I’m afraid it’s gonna be really loud. 

JENNA [00:28:01] We can take a pop tart break if you need to. Angela, you want us to take a break so you can have some pop tart? 

ANGELA [00:28:07] Is this how you talk to your kids? 

JENNA [00:28:08] Baby, you want to have some pop tart? 

ANGELA [00:28:10] Yesh, I wanna have pop tart. 

JENNA [00:28:11] Alright, guys, we’re gonna take a break so Angela can have more pop tart. 

ANGELA [00:28:14] Well, tell me. Can you hear me eating this pop tart? One second. 

JENNA [00:28:19] Yeah, it’s gross. 

ANGELA [00:28:20] Oh, well, it’s not gross. It’s a pop tart! 

JENNA [00:28:23] It’s, no one wants to listen to someone chew and swallow. … That is maybe something she said. Alright, we’re going to break. … Welcome back, everybody. 

ANGELA [00:28:35] Alright. This is totally off-topic. But in preparing for this episode, I like to go back and look at some of the old photos that I have and sort of it helps me remember things, you know, as you know, I’m a hoarder. I have multiple bins of photos. I found pictures, Jenna, from my first red carpet. It was with you. 

JENNA [00:28:53] Oh-. 

ANGELA [00:28:53] I was your plus one. 

JENNA [00:28:55] I will never forget this. 

ANGELA [00:28:57] Uh huh. You know what it was called? 

JENNA [00:28:58] Yep. 

ANGELA [00:28:59] “Paws for Style.” Not pause button, guys. Paws, like a dog, like a P-A-W-S. “Paws for Style.”. 

JENNA [00:29:07] Yes. It was a runway show where celebrities walked a catwalk with their dogs and the dogs were wearing the fashion. So the celebrities were wearing whatever they showed up in and the dogs were dressed in outfits. 

ANGELA [00:29:21] It was kind of a hot mess. 

JENNA [00:29:23] And the money went to the Humane Society. 

ANGELA [00:29:26] That’s why we went. 

JENNA [00:29:26] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:29:26] You were invited. With your dog. 

JENNA [00:29:28] I was invited to bring my dog, Wesley. 

ANGELA [00:29:32] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:29:32] And Angela, this was your first red carpet. We talked in “The Dundees” episode about how I walked the red carpet for “40-Year-Old Virgin.”. 

ANGELA [00:29:38] And I somehow just didn’t do it. 

JENNA [00:29:41] You skipped it. 

ANGELA [00:29:41] I did. I don’t it was intentional. I think just didn’t know. I think I just went inside, got my popcorn. 

JENNA [00:29:47] But for “Paws for Style” you did walk the red carpet. 

ANGELA [00:29:50] Yeah. I wanted to pick the biggest event possible to rehearse red carpet. 

JENNA [00:29:54] For your coming out. 

ANGELA [00:29:55] I said, I mean, it’s almost like my character. Do you know how many photographers there are? Two. Angela, over here. Angela over here. It was like art, like life recreating art or whatever it was that saying. Life intimidating or- no, I’m tried. 

JENNA [00:30:09] I just spit out my coffee. You said life intimidating art. 

ANGELA [00:30:14] I am tired, you guys. I am so tired. Art imitating life. That’s what I’m trying to say. 

JENNA [00:30:21] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:30:22] Not life intimidating art. Oh, good lord. Anyway, so here we are at “Paws for Style.” The big name was Paula Abdul. 

JENNA [00:30:30] With her two or three dogs she had. 

ANGELA [00:30:32] Like three little dogs in outfits. 

JENNA [00:30:36] I remember meeting her out by the red carpet. I remember Wesley and her dogs. They all smelled each other as they do. She was very nice. 

ANGELA [00:30:43] Very nice. I have great photos from this night. I mean, spectacular. 

JENNA [00:30:46] I can only imagine. 

ANGELA [00:30:48] I did my own hair and makeup, this is before I discovered a flat iron. So it’s just frizzy, guys. It’s just frizzy down and straight. I bought a tank top at Target. 

JENNA [00:30:59] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:31:00] And I bought one at the Gap and I layered them. 

JENNA [00:31:03] Mmm. 

ANGELA [00:31:04] I layered my tank tops. They’re both turquoise. Why did I layer two turquoise tank tops? 

JENNA [00:31:09] I don’t know. 

ANGELA [00:31:10] And then I bought some white jeans at Target and this is what I wore. That’s what I wore 

JENNA [00:31:14] Now I’m going to say something. You always really do look good in turquoise, Angela. 

ANGELA [00:31:18] Thank you. 

JENNA [00:31:18] It’s a great color on you. So I think in that way you styled yourself well. 

ANGELA [00:31:22] Thank you. I-. 

JENNA [00:31:22] I think you can tell because you texted me the photo of you on the red carpet. I think you can tell that. How can I say this? That you’d never done a red carpet. I mean, you look a little bit stiff. How can I say this? 

ANGELA [00:31:38] I love, I love how delicately you’re trying to put this. Jenna. It’s like, you know, how if you stand and you put your hands on your hip. 

JENNA [00:31:47] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:31:47] What if you decided to stand but do your legs like spread way too far apart? 

JENNA [00:31:54] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:31:54] And then instead of putting your hands on your hip and your 5’1, guys, you’re 5’1. You decide to put them on your mid-thigh? 

JENNA [00:32:02] Yeah. Kind of like above your leg. 

ANGELA [00:32:04] Almost like you’re doing a squat. 

JENNA [00:32:06] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:32:06] Like. And then you smiled to camera. That’s what I did.

JENNA [00:32:08]  That’s what she did. 

ANGELA [00:32:11] Yeah. That’s what I did. Why did I stand like that? 

JENNA [00:32:13] Listen, you guys, we didn’t know anything about red carpets. 

ANGELA [00:32:16] We didn’t know what the hell we were doing. 

JENNA [00:32:17] We didn’t have anyone advising us. Well, do you remember, Angela, after this event? We saw the pictures and we decided we needed to get better at this. 

ANGELA [00:32:26] Yeah. Oh yeah. 

JENNA [00:32:27] And so- and then do you remember that I had read somewhere that the reason that Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen always look so cute on the red carpet is because they say the word “prune” while the photographers are taking their photograph. The idea is that it makes you look like really like pouty and sexy. 

ANGELA [00:32:43] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:32:43] So we decided at our next red carpet that we were going to say “prune.”. 

ANGELA [00:32:48] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:32:49] The whole time. So it’s like “prune.” “Prune.” “Prune.” 

ANGELA [00:32:52] They’re the worst photos of me ,like, that exist. 

JENNA [00:32:55] We look so- 

ANGELA [00:32:56] I look constipated. It was such a horrible idea. 

JENNA [00:32:59] I thought I looked just looked angry. 

ANGELA [00:33:02] I look like, I look like I need to poop. That’s what, I just looked miserable. 

JENNA [00:33:07] Oh my gosh. Angela, I think back on all of our bright ideas-. 

ANGELA [00:33:13] Our bright ideas? I think it’s fair to say these are all your ideas. 

JENNA [00:33:17] Why do you go along with them? 

ANGELA [00:33:19] I don’t know. I don’t. You’re very persuasive. I don’t know. I just was like, OK, I’ll walk up and pretend to fake laugh as I walk up to people. OK. I’ll say “prune.” OK. 

JENNA [00:33:30] Alright. What should we, we should get back to this episode. 

ANGELA [00:33:33] OK. Let’s do it. Oh, I have a tidbit. 

JENNA [00:33:35] Great. What’s your tidbit? 

ANGELA [00:33:36] I think I see John Krasinski about to break at 16 minutes, one second. So Michael cannot say, “that’s what she said anymore.” 

JENNA [00:33:45] Yes. He comes out of his office. He makes a grand announcement. He’s retiring from comedy. 

ANGELA [00:33:51] Yes, and he, he’s not going to say, you know, Jim is like, “not even that’s what she said.” And he’s like, “nope.”. 

JENNA [00:33:56] I remember filming the scene. 

ANGELA [00:33:58] I remember filming this, too. And Steve as Michael, when he breaks and he goes, “that’s what she said.” His laugh is so huge and giddy and contagious. 

JENNA [00:34:08] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:34:09] And he’s so happy and pleased with himself that we literally almost started to all laugh ourselves. And you catch it in John for just a second, until- 

JENNA [00:34:18] Really? 

ANGELA [00:34:18] Yeah. Do you want to see? 

JENNA [00:34:19] Well, also, as Steve is leaving and he’s being pushed back into his office by Jan and the lawyer he get, he blows a kiss. 

ANGELA [00:34:27] Kiss! He’s so happy. But look at Jon’s face at 16 minutes, one second. Sam, can you pull that up? 

Jim [00:34:31] That including “that’s what she said.” 

MICHAEL [00:34:34] Mmhmm. Yes. 

Jim [00:34:34] Wow. That is really hard. You really think he can go all day long? Well, you always left me satisfied and smiling, so. 

MICHAEL [00:34:48] That’s what she said. 

JAN [00:34:51] Michael! 

MICHAEL [00:34:52] Oh, come on! 

JAN [00:34:53] Michael, please. 

ANGELA [00:34:55] Look at John! Do you see how he puts his hand in front of his face? 

JENNA [00:34:58] For sure. 

ANGELA [00:34:58] That’s what he would do when he was starting to laugh. 

JENNA [00:34:59] Yes, for sure. 

ANGELA [00:35:00] Yeah. That I mean, that is just Steve, because he is a master. He is such a master at like any kind of like big emotional moment. 

JENNA [00:35:10] We’ve talked about how it’s really hard to fake laugh. 

ANGELA [00:35:12] Yeah! 

JENNA [00:35:12] It’s harder than fake crying. 

ANGELA [00:35:14] Oh for sure! 

JENNA [00:35:15] Steve is one of the best at the fake laugh. 

ANGELA [00:35:17] For sure. 

JENNA [00:35:18] So we skipped something that I definitely want to go back to. 

ANGELA [00:35:21] OK. What? 

JENNA [00:35:23] When Michael crashes Toby’s presentation, he walks in with the blow-up doll. 

ANGELA [00:35:30] Oh, yeah. 

JENNA [00:35:30] Do you remember the days and days of those guys trying to figure out which blow-up doll should be the blow-up doll? 

ANGELA [00:35:37] Oh, yeah. 

JENNA [00:35:38] This is a we, so it was like, should she have on an outfit? Should she be wearing underwear? Should she be wearing a bikini? They had a variety of blow-up dolls. This is a weird thing about working on a television show or in a movie or anything. Are the really just very matter of fact discussions about odd things? I remember seeing our Props Master and Greg, and I think it must have been B.J. and Ken Kwapis, but like it, there was a group of people looking at different blowup dolls and having a very matter of fact discussion about what is funniest. 

ANGELA [00:36:15] There was one that had a more open mouth. 

JENNA [00:36:18] I remember that one that was that we nixed that one. 

ANGELA [00:36:22] That one was so off-putting. 

JENNA [00:36:24] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:36:24] But the other thing, too, is we’d walk on set and, you know, backstage we would have like props and things. And I remember walking past like five blow-up dolls every morning for like a week was like, what is our life? 

JENNA [00:36:38] And then Michael has a lot of comedy with that blow-up doll. I love that part when we’re jumping around here. But when Pam’s mom does finally come in and Michael walks out of his office and like chucks it out the door-. 

ANGELA [00:36:47] He’s mad. 

JENNA [00:36:48] In like a grandiose statement. 

ANGELA [00:36:50] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:36:50] But also in the scene with Jan, it’s hiding up on top of his credenza. 

ANGELA [00:36:56] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:36:57] And Jim has this talking head with the blow-up doll. And so, the blow-up doll got a lot of play in this episode is very important that we pick the right one. 

ANGELA [00:37:01] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:37:02] Bit of a character. 

ANGELA [00:37:03] The blow-up doll was going to be featured and those conversations were warranted. 

JENNA [00:37:07] OK. Something else I want to mention, unrelated to the blow-up doll. When Michael takes over the sexual harassment seminar, there is a great deleted scene where Michael goes on this runner. Did you see it? 

ANGELA [00:37:19] No. 

JENNA [00:37:20] Where he says, it’s about him and Pam and I remember shooting the scene and I couldn’t get through it. 

ANGELA [00:37:23] Not the bathtub thing. 

JENNA [00:37:25] No, not the bathtub thing. 

ANGELA [00:37:26] OK. 

JENNA [00:37:26] This was a different runner where Michael says, “Alright. Take for example, Pam and I are dating.” And I say, “That would never happen.” He goes, “No, it’s happening. Pam and I are dating.” And I’m like, “I’m engaged.” He’s like, “Roy died.” And I’m like, “Even still.” And he’s like, “Then I would kill you.” He’s like, “Now Roy and Pam are both dead. Look at what sexual harassment seminar got us.”

ANGELA [00:37:49] I did see that. 

JENNA [00:37:51] It was just like a very funny thing. 

ANGELA [00:37:49] I actually did see that in a montage. That is hilarious. 

JENNA [00:37:53] Yes. And then just Michael, just like really pushing this like, hypothetical situation where he and Pam are dating. And that comes up every once in a while. Every once in a while. There’s a little thing where Pam has to deal with Michael’s hypothetical that there is a world where maybe they’re dating. 

ANGELA [00:38:11] Oh, there was clearly a time he had a crush on you. 

JENNA [00:38:13] I guess so! 

ANGELA [00:38:15] And finally just gave up. 

JENNA [00:38:15] And what about in that same scene, Phyllis’ line where she asks if you have to disclose one night stands? 

ANGELA [00:38:22] No. They talk about you have to report a relationship to H.R. and she goes, “All relationships. Even a one night stand?” 

JENNA [00:38:29] Yes. What is she, is she talking about a previous one night stand or a future one night stand? 

ANGELA [00:38:35] I don’t know. But- 

JENNA [00:38:37] What is she thinking? 

ANGELA [00:38:37] John’s, John’s look to camera as Jim when she says that is so gold. 

JENNA [00:38:41] So good. 

ANGELA [00:38:42] Those classic Jim look to camera. 

JENNA [00:38:44] Let’s talk about my other favorite Toby scene. 

ANGELA [00:38:45] What’s that? 

JENNA [00:38:46] At the end of Toby’s seminar, he says, “If you have any questions, you can come speak to me.” And Dwight goes to him and they have that big, long conversation. 

ANGELA [00:38:54] Yes. 

JENNA [00:38:55] Where Dwight is basically asking about female anatomy and sex. 

ANGELA [00:38:59] Yeah. It starts around 12 minutes. I have it on a card. 

JENNA [00:39:02] A lot of people asked about that scene. Was it scripted? Was it improvised? So when Dwight asks, “where is the clitoris?” That is where the scene was supposed to end. So everything after that. Those were all Rainn’s improvisations. And they shot that scene for about two hours. 

ANGELA [00:39:19] They shot it for so long. And also, Paul, as Toby was improvising as well. 

JENNA [00:39:24] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:39:24] And I thought he had such a great line when he was like, “well, you know, when you’re both more comfortable,” you know, he has this great line. And I wrote, Who is Dwight asking the advice for? 

JENNA [00:39:36] Right. 

ANGELA [00:39:37] Is this the beginning of Dwight and Angela? 

JENNA [00:39:39] I wondered the same thing. And people pointed this out. Dwight seems very comfortable around women in “Hot Girl.” He doesn’t seem to have, any of these hangups, necessarily. And then now suddenly in this episode, he’s revealing maybe the truth? Which is that he doesn’t know so many things about women. 

ANGELA [00:39:58] Well, I also think that he might actually have a woman finally who might be interested in doing those things with him. 

JENNA [00:40:06] Perhaps. 

ANGELA [00:40:07] And he’s realized he doesn’t have the skillset for it. 

JENNA [00:40:12] Ah! Ah! I think that’s what it is. Oh, Angela. 

ANGELA [00:40:16] What? 

JENNA [00:40:16] This is the first episode where we finally see the real outside of the Dunder Mifflin that we will come to know and love. 

ANGELA [00:40:21] Oh, when Michael goes down to get jokes. 

JENNA [00:40:24] Yes. When he goes down to meet the warehouse guys. Well, you see it- We see the parking lot. 

ANGELA [00:40:28] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:40:29] When Ryan takes Todd Packer down. But then you really see him come down through the lobby and outside and around the corner and he’s talking to all the warehouse guys. I thought that was so cool. 

ANGELA [00:40:41] I did, too. I thought it was great. 

JENNA [00:40:43] So the point of that scene, because I was texting with B.J. about this, the point of that scene was that Michael would go down to ask for jokes and then the guys in the warehouse would actually start sexually harassing Michael. 

ANGELA [00:40:55] Right. 

JENNA [00:40:56] So that’s the point. They start commenting on his appearance and his-. 

ANGELA [00:40:59] Package. His lack of package. 

JENNA [00:41:01] Yes. And all that sort of stuff. And yet somehow this does not land on Michael. He learns nothing from being the recipient of harassment. It just, he’s just frustrated they didn’t give him a good joke he could use. 

ANGELA [00:41:16] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:41:17] But then later, all those same warehouse guys are called up to the conference room and they have to watch a sexual harassment training video. But did you notice it’s all those guys and Kevin? 

ANGELA [00:41:27] Yes. Well, here’s-. 

JENNA [00:41:27] Why Kevin? 

ANGELA [00:41:27] Here’s what I think. I think Kevin is kind of like, that teenage kid who if he, if there’s any chance he might see someone in a bra. 

JENNA [00:41:37] Oh! 

ANGELA [00:41:38] Maybe side boob. 

JENNA [00:41:40] Oh, he’s, he’s in that. 

ANGELA [00:41:41] He’s in that. He’s the one that does the MILF joke about your mom. Like he’s kind of like I feel like the kid who is like excited to maybe see anything go down. 

JENNA [00:41:53] Well, I think that sexual harassment video is amazing. We shot that. That’s not a real sexual harassment video. Joel wrote in and asked, did the actors in the sexual harassment video know they were auditioning for a sitcom or did they think it was just an educational video? 

ANGELA [00:42:08] That’s an awesome question. 

JENNA [00:42:09] That is an awesome question. They knew that they were going to appear on “The Office,” but they were told to pretend like they were making a real educational video. 

ANGELA [00:42:17] They did a phenomenal job. Those guest actors were amazing. 

JENNA [00:42:20] They were amazing. And we shot that in the actual writers’ offices. 

ANGELA [00:42:24] Alright. I found it hilarious that when Michael’s in the scene with Jan and the corporate lawyer. 

JENNA [00:42:29] Mmhmm. 

ANGELA [00:42:29] I feel like this is the first time Michael realizes that he’s upper management. 

JENNA [00:42:35] Oh! And he’s so proud. 

ANGELA [00:42:36] He’s so proud. 

JENNA [00:42:37] He’s so proud of himself because he’s hired James P. Albini, the guy from the bus stop, to be his lawyer. I love that scene. I actually think that’s a really great scene to watch if you want to, like nerd out on the camera work and the way that the camera helps tell the story on “The Office,” because that whole entrance of Michael’s lawyer, the way Michael’s lawyer looks directly at camera and gives a little plug for his business, that’s pretty great. But the camera work in that scene is really incredible. Also in that scene, Toby, where he’s sitting, he’s not been invited to sit, sort of in the-. 

ANGELA [00:43:08] In the circle. 

JENNA [00:43:09] Yeah. He’s off against the wall. 

ANGELA [00:43:12] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:43:12] It’s a great scene to watch. Just watch Toby. 

ANGELA [00:43:14] And Toby-. 

JENNA [00:43:16] Through the whole scene is pretty delicious. 

ANGELA [00:43:17] And Toby has a great snarky moment in that scene because, you know, Jan’s like “Michael, are you gonna have to watch the video again?” And he’s like, “I watched the video.” And Toby goes, “He talked through most of it.”. 

JENNA [00:43:28] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:43:29] Toby, Toby throwing him under the bus. 

JENNA [00:43:32] So now we finally have to talk about the scene where Michael stands up to Todd Packer. 

ANGELA [00:43:38] Mmhmm. 

JENNA [00:43:39] Otherwise known as the boner scene. 

ANGELA [00:43:39] The boner scene. 

JENNA [00:43:40] Todd Packer is making this joke about someone attending a nymphomaniac’s convention. 

ANGELA [00:43:45] Yeah. And all the gals are like perfect tens except for this one gal. 

JENNA [00:43:50] And he points to Phyllis. 

ANGELA [00:43:52] And then Kevin says, “Like Phyllis?”. 

JENNA [00:43:55] And then Phyllis looks really sad. 

ANGELA [00:43:58] Michael’s like – Oh, so sad. 

JENNA [00:43:59] So hurt. 

ANGELA [00:43:59] So hurt. And it’s awkward. First of all, do we need a joke about a nymphomaniac convention? 

JENNA [00:44:05] Exactly. 

ANGELA [00:44:05] Todd Packer, thank you very much. 

JENNA [00:44:07] And Michael sees that Phyllis is hurt and he says that that was inappropriate. He. He says something. But then Todd Packer challenges him and he’s like, “I mean, Kevin. Kevin, you should not say those things about Phyllis.” And then he goes on this whole speech about how Phyllis is great and how he loves Phyllis. She’s like a grandmother to them. 

ANGELA [00:44:27] And she says, “I mean, Michael we’re the same age. We went to high school together.” I love this. I love that.

JENNA [00:44:33] And that fact comes back to haunt Michael all the time. She is constantly reminding him in the series that they went to high school together. It’s a really sweet scene and, and he hugs Phyllis and then he says the only thing he’s afraid of is getting a boner. 

ANGELA [00:44:48] A boner and then Phyllis’ face. Her reaction is what made it for me! It made that whole scene. 

JENNA [00:44:55] It really did. It really did. And I think that there was this way where, I don’t know, do you think Michael’s redeemed in that moment a little bit? Because he stands up for his group. A little bit? 

ANGELA [00:45:05] He does. I think it’s it’s definitely the first time he has stood up to Todd Packer. And you can tell because when you see Todd Packer’s face, he’s like, oh, man, they really got to you. And Michael’s like, no, I got to them, like, whatever that means. But I think it’s the first time he’s stood up to him. And even though it’s a very small way, I think it’s that moment once again, where, this is our writers trying to give Michael a little bit of a growth moment. 

JENNA [00:45:28] What? Angela? 

ANGELA [00:45:34] This is-. 

JENNA [00:45:34] You just referred to the boner scene as the scene where the writers give Michael a little bit of a growth moment. 

ANGELA [00:45:39] Oh no.

JENNA [00:45:41] That’s perfect. That’s perfect. OK. Now let’s talk about the scene with Pam’s mom. We said a little bit about this earlier. Angela, you expressed your disgust that this is her first visit. 

ANGELA [00:45:51] OK. I just am saying, like, where have you been, mom? That’s all. 

JENNA [00:45:55] Why- I get it. I get it. But there is more to say here. 

ANGELA [00:45:57] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:45:58] So, first of all, Pam’s mom was played by Shannon Cochran and a lot of people wrote in and said, what the heck is up with Pam’s mom? Why is she played by one person in this episode? And then another person later on in the show, I will tell you, we wanted Shannon Cochran to come back. We cast her as Pam’s mom. We intended for her to always play Pam’s mom. But then we didn’t need Pam’s mom for a really long time. Shannon got a theater contract. She was a touring theater actress with, you know, Rainn, her and I had a lot to discuss. 

ANGELA [00:46:26] Oh, look at you, yes. 

JENNA [00:46:28] Theater pedigree. 

ANGELA [00:46:29] Fancy theater people. 

JENNA [00:46:30] That’s right. And she wasn’t available. And so we had to recast her for those later episodes. And it was, it was a really weird thing because the integrity of our show was so important to us. There was this rule for a very long time that we couldn’t do any stunt casting. 

ANGELA [00:46:49] Yeah. No- 

JENNA [00:46:49] I don’t know if people know what that means. 

ANGELA [00:46:50] Yeah. Explain it. 

JENNA [00:46:52] Yeah. So stunt casting means when you bring on a guest star and they’re a big name guest star. Now, of course, obviously in later years we broke this rule. Will Ferrell. Kathy Bates. 

ANGELA [00:47:03] Kathy Bates. 

JENNA [00:47:03] James Spader. 

ANGELA [00:47:04] Idris Elba. 

JENNA [00:47:04] Yes, exactly. 

ANGELA [00:47:06] Timothy Olyphant. 

JENNA [00:47:07] On and on. 

ANGELA [00:47:07] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:47:08] But for a long time we had this rule against stunt casting and this kind of fell into that. Like once somebody was established to play a character. They were that person or they didn’t come back. The reason we broke the rule with Pam’s mom and recasting is because the writers came up with a storyline that Michael would date Pam’s mom. Do you remember that? 

ANGELA [00:47:29] Oh. How could I forget that? 

JENNA [00:47:29] Right. I know. And Pam ends up slapping Michael, but this storyline idea was just too good to pass up. So they decided to recast. I hope that helps people with the whole two moms question. So I want to talk a little bit about the scene when Pam’s mom finally arrives and you see Roy and her. 

ANGELA [00:47:45] Oh, my God. And his outfit with his hair slicked down. 

JENNA [00:47:47] His sweater. And he does that little dance to charm Pam’s mom. So I’m gonna let you in on a little bit more of my actor prep here. 

ANGELA [00:47:55] And he asks me what music she wants. 

JENNA [00:47:57] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:47:57] OK. What is it? 

JENNA [00:47:59] Well, you know, I had my Pam document and I was always asking myself questions about Pam that I thought were a mystery. And I would answer them. 

ANGELA [00:48:06] Wait, I need to clarify for everyone. Jenna’s Pam document wasn’t given to her by Greg Daniels or any writers or producers. This was a document that Jenna made herself for her character. 

JENNA [00:48:17] These are the kinds of things you learn in theater school, Angela. 

ANGELA [00:48:21] You can suck it. 

JENNA [00:48:23] These are the things we’re encouraged to do.  

ANGELA [00:48:28] I took some theater classes. 

JENNA [00:48:29] You know, just trained theater actors, are encouraged. 

ANGELA [00:48:33] I took classes at HP studios in New York City. 

JENNA [00:48:34] OK. 

ANGELA [00:48:35] With Cale Rosenfeld, who was a protege of Uta Hagen. Thank you very much. 

JENNA [00:48:40] Alright. That’s the pedigree. 

ANGELA [00:48:42] Thank you. 

JENNA [00:48:42] Alright. 

ANGELA [00:48:42] I got a blessing. Oh.

JENNA [00:48:43] Well, in my document, I had asked myself the question, how did Pam and Roy end up together anyway? So I’ve answered sort of why I think they’re still together. But how did they end up together? They seem so mismatched to me. Here was my backstory. Pam’s family owned an appliance shop. In downtown Scranton, like in the town square. And Roy in high school got a job working at the appliance store and he was a great worker. He was very charming and as in the Roy you just saw here in the sweater. And so that was how their worlds collided. Because Pam was probably this little nerdy art student in high school. So I couldn’t figure out how did she meet Roy. 

ANGELA [00:49:27] Who was probably a jock. 

JENNA [00:49:29] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:49:29] Yeah. 

JENNA [00:49:30] And this was how. He was very charming. And he asked her out and they started dating. But because he works there, like the families became very meshed. They would barbecue together. So this is why and how she kind of can’t get out of this relationship, even though now it’s clear it’s a mismatch. It’s because the families are so co-joined. 

ANGELA [00:49:52] And do you think that Pam decided not to work at the appliance store and go out, branch out. And then Roy followed her to the warehouse? 

JENNA [00:50:02] Oh, my gosh. Angela, I don’t know. But I feel like when I go back and put that in my document right now. 

ANGELA [00:50:07] Because here’s just like, here’s Pam, like, OK, I’m not going to work at the family business. I need some space. I need to figure out who I am. 

JENNA [00:50:15] Yes. 

ANGELA [00:50:16] And then Roy’s like, hey, I got a job at that warehouse. Will be able to see each other every day. 

JENNA [00:50:21] Oh, my gosh. 

ANGELA [00:50:22] I find it interesting that Pam eats in the break room with Jim and not in the warehouse with Roy. 

JENNA [00:50:28] Whoah. 

ANGELA [00:50:28] Now we see Roy’s sometimes eat there. 

JENNA [00:50:29] Yeah. They don’t eat lunch together, do they? 

ANGELA [00:50:32] Not very often! 

JENNA [00:50:32] Mmmm. And then Pam’s mom has the moment in this episode where she whispers, “Which one is Jim?” And you see John Krasinski’s face. He’s all pleased that he knows now that Pam- And by the way, in Casino Night, we know Pam calls her mom on the phone to, you know, share about what happened in the parking lot. 

ANGELA [00:50:54] Well, I just love the moment. And John played it so well where he sees his opportunity to introduce himself to Pam’s mom. And he gets up the courage and he walks over right as Roy walks in. And he just quickly takes like a piece of candy and goes back to his desk. 

JENNA [00:51:11] Yeah. 

ANGELA [00:51:11] And that kind of broke my heart for him. Lastly from Dave Koechner, who plays Todd Packer, he said, Ang, please let everyone know I am nothing like Todd Packer in real life. 

JENNA [00:51:22] Oh, and it’s true, everyone! 

ANGELA [00:51:23] I know. 

JENNA [00:51:23] Dave is just a sweet, sweet, sweetheart. Father of five. 

ANGELA [00:51:29] I know. And he said he goes, I just wish you and Jenna all the best. This is such a great idea. I just love it as a fan of the show. 

JENNA [00:51:35] It’s got to be hard to believe that he is not like Todd Packer for some people. To imagine that if you met him, he is just the warmest, nicest-. 

ANGELA [00:51:47] Yeah! 

JENNA [00:51:48] Wonderful gentleman. 

ANGELA [00:51:47] I know. Yeah. I think sometimes you get known as this character, but he’s nothing like that. I’m nothing like Angela Martin. 

JENNA [00:51:54] This is true. 

ANGELA [00:51:56] You’re a little bit like Pam. 

JENNA [00:51:57] I am. 

ANGELA [00:51:57] Alright, guys. That was “Sexual Harassment.”. 

JENNA [00:51:59] That was “Sexual Harassment.” We did it. Next week is “Office Olympics” with Special Guest Director Paul Feig. 

ANGELA [00:52:07] He is the best-dressed man in show business. 

JENNA [00:52:10] For sure. 

ANGELA [00:52:11] Go to his Instagram. It is delightful. 

JENNA [00:52:13] Thank you for listening to “Office Ladies!” “Office Ladies” is produced by Earwolf, Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey, our producer is Codi Fischer, our sound engineer, Sam Kieffer. 

ANGELA [00:52:23] And our theme song is “Rubber Tree” by Creed Bratton. Remember, you can listen to Ad-free versions of “Office Ladies” on Stitcher Premium. For a free month of Stitcher Premium Use Code “Office.”