EP. 137 — Jena Friedman

IWEIGH-137-20221117-JenaFriedman-ACv01-DYN.mp3

Jameela [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, a podcast against shame. I hope you’re well and I hope you’re ready for an incredibly candid chat between two women who clearly have no media training. By that I mean myself and my excellent guest, Jena Friedman. She is an American standup comedian, a writer, director and host. You might know her from The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. She’s also Oscar nominated. She’s extremely talented and funny. And she has a very, very funny and very, very sharp and fucking ruthless standup special called Lady Killer, which is on Peacock at the moment, as she also hosts and directs a true crime series called Indefensible, which she explains to me a little bit about because I’m very, very new to true crime. It’s not really my genre because I’m a fucking coward and I don’t like to hear about scary shit because I find the world really scary already. But her take on that is fucking fascinating. Her take on so many things within politics, I think, tends to be some of the most fascinating shit I read. She has no filter whatsoever, and in this episode in particular, she has no filter because she’s just had a fucking baby. She’s like three weeks into being a mum. When we sit down and have this chat and I can’t believe she even showed up, never mind managed to deliver what was an incredibly impressive chat with me. And what makes her, aside from how intense that is, a thing to put yourself through, which is showing up and doing something public when you’re a few weeks into being a mum. But her take is so fresh because she’s someone who never thought she was going to be a mum, never wanted to be a mum, still has the sort of quite incredibly, incredibly frank feelings about being a mum and very, very frank feelings about the right to abortion and what people’s expectations should be and how hard it is for a mum and how really they don’t get that much credit. She’s just unlike anyone I’ve I’ve really met in this business and I really admire her for coming on and just saying all the shit that was in her, in her fucking exhausted and wonderful, miraculous brain. She’s really special. Go and watch her. Go find her online, especially on Twitter, where she’s giving a kind of live update of being a new mum, specifically hoping that dads will see it so they can know how hard it is and why they shouldn’t be legislating and forcing motherhood on people. But for now, please join me in falling in love with the excellent Jena Friedman. Jena bloody Friedman welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

Jena [00:02:54] Good that was such a wonderfully British intro. Bloody.

Jameela [00:03:01] How’s life? You’ve been through some minor changes very, very recently. 

Jena [00:03:06] Yeah, it’s good. Yeah I have silver cups on my nipples right now. I normally don’t open talking about my nipples, but I’ve been breastfeeding and it really hurts. So I just realized I’m glad that we’re not filming that low because I have things like weird. I mean to answer your question, I’m good. 

Jameela [00:03:21] Pumping. I don’t know. I don’t know what silver kind of floats, are you pumping is it a fashion statement? Are they cold and they’re like soothing your nipples like what’s happening. 

Jena [00:03:29] When you breastfeed. I didn’t realize this until I was, like, three months pregnant, that when you breastfeed, you’d literally do it around the clock where you’re pumping just to try to keep up your supply or whatever. And it really hurts. So there are all of these products and new parents are very susceptible to any product that says it’s going to make anything easier because it’s so hard. But this is I’m not now I sound like a shill for like this company that I have no stake in, but there’s just like it’s like a little it looks almost like a bottle cap, and it’s silver and it’s on my nipple right now. So you ask how I am, and I’m like, That’s a weird new thing. 

Jameela [00:04:07] Wait, why? Does it help?

Jena [00:04:08] Because it actually has, like, inflammatory anti-inflammatory properties. 

Jameela [00:04:14] Nice. God, you are a shill for them. 

Jena [00:04:15] I am. But they’re not paying me. I know I am. I’ve spent 15 years trying to do comedy, and now I’m like a breastfeeding influencer. 

Jameela [00:04:23] I think it’s fantastic and I applaud anyone who opens this podcast talking about their nipples. So welcome. 

Jena [00:04:30] They hurt. Thank you. 

Jameela [00:04:32] Fucking hell so you’ve had a baby. And I mean, I remember when I first met you. Was it Christmas Day? Something like that. Something ridiculous. And we were talking and I feel like at that time, you and I kind of felt similarly about not being sure about children with someone who. 

Jena [00:04:51] Oh yeah and I was probably pregnant then. I was like, I don’t want it. I still look, I knew I wasn’t going to regret it, but yeah, no, it’s not anything I ever really wanted. And it sounds kind of fucked up to say out loud. 

Jameela [00:05:05] I don’t think that’s fucked up to say. And you know what? Most of my friends who have had babies have similar feelings and thoughts. It doesn’t mean they don’t love their baby, it’s just that it’s fucking fucking fucking hard. And if it’s something you didn’t like, plan your whole life around and hope for every day from, you know, certain age, then it’s a big, big fuck off culture shock, especially for someone who’s lived a life as independent as yours, as a standup comic, as someone who’s traveling, as someone who can pick up and go to locate, go on location. It’s it’s so much freedom suddenly go from that to can’t move because human is on nipple all fucking day. 

Jena [00:05:46] It’s yeah it’s weird. Personally, I knew it wasn’t something I was going to regret. I’m 39. I could finally afford to do it. My husband really wanted it, my family really wanted it. And I was like, If you can get me pregnant, like, why don’t you try? I’ve never been pregnant before. So it’s probably not going to happen. And it did. And it’s cool. I’m into it. It’s, it’s a new experience that I that is kind of fun, as tiring as it is. But I also could of just not done it. And I also think that now in this moment politically, where people are being forced into this, it’s all the more important to really be honest about it when you’re in it or just in general, because I think that there’s a lot of sugarcoating of motherhood. 

Jameela [00:06:31] 100%. Well, some of the things other than nippular that you have found to be to have been sugarcoated before. I mean, I know you haven’t had long in motherhood, but you did have a fucking long time in pregnancy to also find out new shit about that, I imagine. 

Jena [00:06:48] Yeah, no, I know that you want us to switch topics from a nipple. 

Jameela [00:06:52] No, not at all. No, not at all. I didn’t. I didn’t want you to think that I’m obsessed with nipples, you know? So I’m just trying to find a happy balance. I’ll go there with you. I’ll go to Nipple Town all day, friend. 

Jena [00:07:05] The thought of breastfeeding grossed me out. The thought of nipples and thought of, like, mom culture. All of it creep me out. I actively. I didn’t talk to friends who had just had babies. I didn’t want to hear people’s birth stories. I didn’t, like, get a doula. I didn’t do any of the stuff. I didn’t read any of the books. I just was like, la la, la, la, la. I’m not going to. I’m just going to. And so I really went in blind. And to answer your question, the thing that was the most shocking was I had an emergency C-section, and after which the hospital that we were at, it’s like a baby friendly hospital. And there’s I don’t really know the history of it, but there are there’s a movement among hospitals to be baby friendly, meaning the baby goes in the room with the recovering person, the mom, whatever you want to call them during the entire hospital stay. 

Jameela [00:08:02] Because at first, when I heard that, I was like, fucking hell people have been having babies in places that don’t like babies. 

Jena [00:08:08] Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s branding. It’s really bullshit. But I think that the real reason for this new policy shift is because it is cost cutting. Basically, they. They are getting rid of nurseries. So it used to be that like you have your baby, your baby goes to the nursery, the nurses take care of the baby. Bring the baby to you to breastfeed. Baby goes back to the nursery so you can sleep. Now the babies are put in your room. So I had a C-section, meaning my entire my fucking uterus is on the operating table. 

Jameela [00:08:38] Also, you see, you got like sort of double fucked because you started off doing sort of OG natural birth style, followed by a sudden C-section. So you’ve got to do both, which is quite a big achievement. 

Jena [00:08:51] Thank you. And then and then after before you’re even remotely recovered, they put a baby on you in like in the name of this baby friendly policy where they want mama and baby to bond. And it just feels very patronizing and not really pro person who just gave birth or pro baby because it’s like they say healthy mother, healthy baby or whatever they say. And I just in our current moment in California, which has a really great reputation of child rearing, hospital, childbirth, hospitals, that these hospitals exist and that they’re becoming the norm, and that this policy ostensibly makes recovery easier and it really doesn’t or something. I’m not explaining it as well as I could be. 

Jameela [00:09:33] I think you’re making it very clear. I had no idea about any of this. I know nothing. I know nothing. I know. Truly. Just fuck all. If there was a way to know minus nothing about motherhood. 

Jena [00:09:44] That was me. 

Jameela [00:09:45] That would be me. Yeah. 

Jena [00:09:45] That was me. And then I had this procedure and then they stick a baby in my. I can’t sit up. I physically couldn’t sit up because I just had a C-section and they want me to breastfeed the baby. And then the baby stays in your room and you can’t actually physically take care of the baby because you can’t sit up to help it. So you’re constantly calling the nurses to help you, but you won’t have to if the hospital still had a nursery. It’s just really not so. 

Jameela [00:10:09] So we need some more slightly parent friendly, parent friendly hospitals. It sounds like. 

Jena [00:10:15] They used to be parent friendly. But then I think with the privatization of hospitals, they’re cutting nurseries and they’re doing it under the guise of being baby friendly. It’s pretty insidious. We can talk about murder. We can talk about true crime. 

Jameela [00:10:26] No, no, I want to talk about no, I actually do really want to talk about I want to talk about motherhood. I want to talk about you know, this is a podcast that is about mental health. And I think that all of these things, I think even fucking hour you recorded your special Lady Killer, which I would love to talk about, but just a few weeks after it was announced that the Supreme Court were taking away the right to abortion, and it was a really wild time. It was like you’re pregnant and this has happened in the world. And then three weeks later, you’re standing on a stage presenting a comedy show. And I’ve seen that special twice now and it is fucking excellent. And I really appreciate the way that you seamlessly straddle both the subject of motherhood and the subject of, you know, people’s rights, people with uteruses rights, women’s rights. Like, it’s just it’s really important. What the fuck was that like standing there pregnant, talking about that on stage? 

Jena [00:11:28] Yeah. Thank you for watching that. Being pregnant, you’re so vulnerable and disempowered in so many ways, but then you’re also kind of powerful in other ways. And I think being on stage with a microphone, talking about abortion and telling jokes, I had one joke, the miscarriage joke, which was kind of an older joke, and it came out of friends having miscarriages and feeling like I wanted to help them. People are so devastated about it, but it’s so common and we just don’t talk about it as a culture. And so when it happens, do you think you’re like broken or something? But everybody miscarries. It’s one of the jokes. Everybody miscarries. It’s like a children’s book that hasn’t been written yet. Everyone miscarries or whatever. But it was interesting to tell that joke pregnant because I told it not pregnant and people laughed. And then when you’re really pregnant, people did not laugh. They were really creeped out. 

Jameela [00:12:23] What did you say? You said that you had during the pregnancy named your baby Jeffrey Epstein, so that if something happened that went wrong with the pregnancy, you could say, Well, maybe Jeffrey Epstein killed himself. 

Jena [00:12:37] Yes. 

Jameela [00:12:37] Such a fucked up joke. 

Jena [00:12:40] It’s a fucking joke. But it’s not a joke. I had a pregnancy app and I didn’t. It was like really soon and I’m 39 and just having so many friends who’ve had miscarriages, I was like, We’re probably going to miscarry, you know? Like, I didn’t think the whole pregnancy, I was really like, I don’t know or, you know, who knows if this is going to happen. But I just wanted to I ascribe to the power of negative thinking, just kind of like, you know, if you have low expectations, you’ll never be disappointed. So we named him Jeffrey Epstein because we just wanted to have no pressure. 

Jameela [00:13:12] Yeah. Well, I love that joke, but I also, as a, you know, a childless, selfish. 

Jena [00:13:20] No. You’re not you’re-. 

Jameela [00:13:21] A snowflake. No, no, no, no, no like snowflake. Uh, uh, you know, liberal piece of shit that I am when I talk about my abortion or our rights to abortion, I get kind of shat on in a way that a pregnant person or a person who’s had children who advocates for abortion isn’t. And so I so appreciate anyone in that position using their voice to be able to advocate for a right to choose. Because if anything, you know better than I do, better than anyone who hasn’t experienced that. This is why I think there’s been a big problem with cis men trying to, you know, being the ones to legislate this predominantly or almost entirely is that no one who hasn’t done it should even really be entering the arena. But right now, everyone’s voices, you know, is needed to try and stop this massive injustice from taking place. But one of the things that you brought up in the special was hugely important, was about the fact that 60% of abortions are you know, you’re incredibly flippant in the way that you deliver this. But you talk about the fact that 60% of the people who have abortions are already parents and they just don’t have the money or they don’t want to do it again. You know, for whatever reason, maybe as you sort of suggest, it’s because they know better, cause you’ve done it before. 

Jena [00:14:44] Yeah fool me once, I’m a mom. 

Jameela [00:14:47] Yeah. But that’s so important. And the the idea that people have in their heads of someone, especially a woman who wants an abortion, is this person who couldn’t keep her legs closed, who’s using abortion as a form of birth control, as if that would ever be the option for anyone. And that we, you know, a heartless sort of just like career gals. And also, by the way, even if that’s the case, that’s still fine. You should get to choose to do whatever you want with your fucking life and body, but it’s like a real breath of fresh air to to watch someone who’s in a position in which they think it’s us versus you guys. And for you to stand with us means a lot. 

Jena [00:15:34] Yeah. It’s like I definitely have the kid to have more credibility, because as a woman, I think. 

Jameela [00:15:40] Thank you. That’s a huge sacrifice. 

Jena [00:15:40] We get so little credibility. But as mommy. People are like, what does a mommy have to say about this one category? She’s invisible at all other. 

Jameela [00:15:50] I was about to say, yeah, that’s the only time that that becomes a. 

Jena [00:15:53] The only time the mommy to talk. On a little side note when you were saying my abortion, I’m like, why don’t we say our abortions? We say we’re pregnant. We should say our abortions. You know, it takes two. 

Jameela [00:16:12] So true! 

Jena [00:16:15] Yeah. His abortion. 

Jameela [00:16:17] So true. We’re pregnant. We’re having a baby. We’re having an abortion. 

Jena [00:16:21] My abortion no it’s our collective abortion. That’s the I think all the what you were saying about, like, us versus them moms versus. 

Jameela [00:16:30] Non moms. 

Jena [00:16:32] And I love my non moms. I still identify. Like I’m a dad. I’m not a fucking mom. I never want to be a mom. But I think I mean, all that is branding. I will say that the right or whatever you want to call them has just really knocked out of the park with all of that branding, pro-life. Give me a break. Like all of this. 

Jameela [00:16:52] You have a really strong theory about why it is that they use abortion as they’re kind of hill to die on. Would you mind expanding upon that? 

Jena [00:17:01] Oh, the the political reality coming from like the 1970s Moral Majority stuff. Yeah. So, I mean, I think what a lot of people don’t realize is that abortion our current. The current moment that we’re in where abortion is really like a galvanizing political strategy emerged out of the right. Right wing political strategists were frustrated in Carter and the Democrats because they were threatening to take away their tax exempt status because they weren’t integrating their private white Christian schools. And so they wanted to get voters on their side. And they used abortion really as a wedge issue to get more people on board, to really just have more political power so that they could do things like continue to segregate their private white Christian schools. It’s really just a political strategy. It doesn’t have anything to do with morality. 

Jameela [00:17:58] No. And I think that a lot of us have that suspicion because nothing makes sense as to how we treat immigrants or the unhoused, pretty much everyone. 

Jena [00:18:08] I mean it’s genius like who’s not pro-life. Yeah. 

Jameela [00:18:09] But it’s nice to hear it kind of put succinctly in a way that makes things crystal fucking clear. 

Jena [00:18:14] Which I did before. I, I haven’t slept. 

Jameela [00:18:17] No, it’s fine. How. How are you? How are you? Like, I know. We know. We know about the nips. How’s the brain? Like, how are you feeling? This is a lot. 

Jena [00:18:27] It’s a lot. The brain is okay. My husband’s been incredible. Really incredible. I don’t know how people do it. I do have a night nurse at the moment, which is a godsend. She’s enable. She’s allowing me to do this podcast now. But I think when you’re in it, it just it crystallizes how crazy it is that our culture and society and our government really put people, set women up to fail, women who have children in our country. I just I just don’t know how people do it without help or resources or, you know, it’s just it’s so hard. It’s so hard. I didn’t realize, like, you literally are breastfeeding every 2 to 3 hours. Day and night. If you go that route or you do use formula, which is great, I’m trying I’m, I’m going the breast milk route at the moment, but even with formula, you’re still having to feed this thing every 2 to 3 hours. 

Jameela [00:19:24] This thing. 

Jena [00:19:25] This thing, he is a thing. He’s not like he’s still like, you know, they’re not the first three months. They’re not like really people yet. 

Jameela [00:19:33] Yeah. They can’t even see properly. Right? 

Jena [00:19:35] They can’t see properly. They’re just spitting up like he’s funny unintentionally. Like it was so hard to breastfeed at first and so painful and I finally was able to do it and I got him to eat even though he’s, like, biting on my nipple and then, like, he gets up after and he just spits it all up. It’s just like so in vain. You’re like, Really? I just got this thing done, and then you just waste it all. And then, yeah. 

Jameela [00:20:01] It’s extremely rude. We’ve established he’s already picking up some white male tendencies. 

Jena [00:20:08] And there’s the other thing to answer your question about. Like other things that I’ve learned, I’ve never had boobs. I’m not a boob person. No, I’ve never and no one’s ever been like, look at her boobs. 

Jameela [00:20:17] Right? 

Jena [00:20:18] Whatever. 

Jameela [00:20:19] No. That’s that’s a case of my ass. Go on. 

Jena [00:20:23] Yeah. So, you know, some people are boob people, but my parenting style now, any time he cries, I just stick my boob in his mouth and he is immediately quiet. And it just makes me wonder if that would work with other with like men as well. 

Jameela [00:20:36] I think so. 

Jena [00:20:37] The best way to get them to just shut up, you know, like do. All of them. And like, I wonder if all Tucker Carlson needs is, like, a boob in his face to just shut the fuck up. You know. 

Jameela [00:20:48] He needs more than that. Unfortunately, I. Yeah, like boot up the ass. Preferably.

Jena [00:20:53] I don’t know. This is my new mom humor, it’s not really working.

Jameela [00:20:58] Talk to me about the thoughts that you must have. Is such a vocal and prominent feminist and someone so politically engaged and motivated. I know that you’re thinking a lot about what it’s going to be like to raise a young man, you know, especially as a very, you know, prominent, in my opinion, prominent feminist voice. What you know, what were your feelings and thoughts around that? Was there any relief around not having a girl because you know how difficult it is to be a woman in this world? Or were you sad because you had things to impart? Were you daunted about what it’s going to be like to raise a boy, or are you excited to see what happens when you raise a boy with the right values, who he turns out to be? 

Jena [00:21:41] Well, I. You just want a healthy kid is really what what you want. But yeah, I mean, like, I work in true crime, so when I found out it wasn’t a girl. I was like, okay, I think I’ll breathe a sigh of relief. I hate saying that, but I just it seemed so scary to raise a girl girl in our current moment. And then in terms of like raising a boy to be like a good man. I don’t know. Like, that’s. Is that? Is that my responsibility? Like am I going to get in trouble if he’s not? Steven Steven Miller’s parents, they they’re from like Southern California. I just. That’s my I you want him to be healthy, but then you’re like, what if what if you do everything right? And then he’s still a piece of shit and then am I going to get blamed, you know? 

Jameela [00:22:31] Well, yeah, obviously, you. Obviously, they will all blame you and not your husband. Only you, just to be very clear. But do you have anything in mind that you want to impart him with or. I mean, I know he’s only this little, but I imagine there was a lot of time. I’m just saying this because I know a lot of my friends who’ve who, you know, during their pregnancy, once they knew that they were having a boy, this became something that they were really thinking about, of like, what are all the things I wish the man I knew had known or been raised with? 

Jena [00:23:00] I’m leaning a lot on my husband because he’s a really great guy. He’s just great. And so. 

Jameela [00:23:05] He is great, I’ve me him he’s very nice. 

Jena [00:23:07] Maybe he’ll teach him how to be great. Like, I don’t know. Like, I don’t know. I think you just lead by example. You talk to them and you try to make sure they understand what no means and that they’re not entitled and that they, you know, you your goal is what? That they leave the world in a better place than they came into it, I don’t know. And that they’re healthy and happy and kind, I don’t know. But I’m not. I probably should read a parenting book or two, but I also I have no clue. 

Jameela [00:23:38] I think it’s quite refreshing that you haven’t read up on any of these things and are not planning for it. 

Jena [00:23:43] Even though I don’t know what I’m doing. 

Jameela [00:23:43] No, I do. But the thing is, is that like until the age of information, you know, the age is like this vast amount of information. Everyone did it like that. Everyone was kind of, you know following. 

Jena [00:23:55] I Google. Like, any time I have a question, I’ll just Google. 

Jameela [00:23:59] So at least you’re okay. So you’re looking to some sort of source, you’re not just. 

Jena [00:24:02] Yeah and like how many times should he shit a day?

Jameela [00:24:03] Randomly guessing about everything. Okay, good. 

Jena [00:24:06] He shits all the time he shits like. Okay. I’m going to tell you something. I haven’t changed his diaper yet. 

Jameela [00:24:13] In the three weeks since he’s been alive. 

Jena [00:24:16] I ascribe to the trump school I’m going to get in trouble for this but the Trump school of parenting just in this one way not with the incest. 

Jameela [00:24:23] Wait wait wait. Has anyone changed his diaper? Or do I need to come around? 

Jena [00:24:27] My husband has changed all the diapers. 

Jameela [00:24:27] Okay, fine. No, no, no, that’s fine. That’s fine. But also, by the way. Yeah. As long as your child hasn’t been sitting in his own feces for a month. 

Jena [00:24:35] No, he’s not been no my husband is changing the diapers and I. 

Jameela [00:24:40] Amen. Fucking good for you. I love this. I love this. 

Jena [00:24:42] I know. I know. I will start to change them. 

Jameela [00:24:45] Why have you not dealt with enough shit in your life as a woman? Should not only be. I think that is a man’s job. I mean, that is a man’s job. And I think it shouldn’t just be your husband, I think should be every man he knows. I think they should, as a community, deal with all of this shit. We have enough shit to deal with. Why do we have to walk home with keys between our fingers? No no. Parking lots are fucking terrifying. I never. I never really understood because I’ve always been a car person. But, you know, now that I, you know, go places, my boyfriend, I walk through and I’m like, oh my God, this is why I don’t drive. I could never fucking walk through my here by myself. 

Jena [00:25:20] We have to drive out here. 

Jameela [00:25:21] This is ridiculous. 

Jena [00:25:23] I’m the same way you are I know, but also keys. But also like that noise maker thing. 

Jameela [00:25:29] I got the rape alarm and just like. 

Jena [00:25:31] Lady claw.

Jameela [00:25:34] Just like everything that is offensive about that is forced upon us about, like, the ways in which we just have to kind of get through the day. I mean, it’s fucking amazing that when I get into bed at night, you know, one of the first thoughts I have is oh that’s good, another day, not assaulted. No, not murdered. still here. 

Jena [00:25:51] Maybe you need to wear the ski mask. When you walk home alone. So that you look like the rapist. So that the rapist isn’t going to come after you. 

Jameela [00:25:59] Well, no. I mean, I’ve said this on this podcast before but in case anyone hasn’t and in case anyone hasn’t heard it, you know, I run always home and I pretend I’m already being chased so that if a man sees me he’ll think ahh someone’s already got that one and then he’ll leave me alone. So yeah. So, you know, I have to do on this on very short roads, otherwise it’s a quick giveaway that I’m, you know, just running from a ghost or something. But but I do that. Yeah, but it’s, I, I, if I had had a child because there was a short while in which I was entertaining the idea at the beginning of my relationship 

Jena [00:26:35] You still can.

Jameela [00:26:37] But I won’t. But you know, there was a short period where I think I was still in that phase of like, well, that’s what you do. And you meet someone, you fall in love, and that’s what you do and that’s what you have to do, because otherwise all your friends will go off and have babies and then will be busy with their babies and then you two won’t have anyone to talk to. But uh, around that time I’d made the decision that if I did do it because I was the member of my relationship that wanted it less, like you’ll deal with all of the disgusting things. I’ll never see poo. I won’t know of it, I won’t smell it. As far as I’ll be concerned, my baby won’t even have an asshole. So I’m. I am in strong support of you and your diaper averseness. I don’t see why you should have to ever. I don’t see why. If you’ve got someone that was willing to do that, you did the whole pregnancy. Why should you ever, ever have to clean a shitty diaper? 

Jena [00:27:26] No, I know it’s kind of a game at this point, and he hasn’t asked me to do it, so I’m like, Oh. 

Jameela [00:27:31] I don’t think he should ever ask you. Did he have constipation for ten months? No. 

Jena [00:27:36] Yeah. I wasn’t constipated, but I did have I mean, I did have really bad acid reflux. I couldn’t eat tomatoes. 

Jameela [00:27:44] There you go. Well, they terrible tomatoes are fantastic. 

Jena [00:27:47] Tomatoes. 

Jameela [00:27:50] Yeah. I enjoy. I read. I’m really enjoying your approach. I know. I haven’t seen anything quite like it. It’s like the seventies.

Jena [00:27:56] I mean he’s going to get taken away from me after this podcast. They’re like, why is she allowed to have a kid? 

Jameela [00:28:05] Not at all. 

Jena [00:28:06] Maternal instinct. I really I could have so easily not had a kid. I mean, I just really I’m so agnostic about it. And I feel like a traitor, honestly, because I feel like I was like I love, like, you know, single women. Like, I lived in New York for like a decade. I feel like my like I don’t want to say spirit animal because it’s probably problematic at this point. But I just I am that is my vibe, you know? And I just feel like this is so off brand. Having a kid is just like, what? What that happened. I did that, you know, I think. I don’t know. So I’m sorry.

Jameela [00:28:40] It’s funny you say that, because if anything like you, you must have some sort of surplus of maternal instinct. Not as in like to say that. I mean, I’m not in any way trying to gaslight you out of your own thoughts or feelings, but I’m just saying that you are relying almost entirely on instincts to do all of this because you have no information. So the baby is still alive and you seem happy and you look happy and you’re enjoying it. Which is a huge surprise.

Jena [00:29:05] That’s all that matters. That I look happy. 

Jameela [00:29:09] You do you look happy. And you, you know, you said yourself like you’re enjoying it, you’re into it. So I think you could give yourself a little bit more credit. Look at me giving a coaching session to a mum. 

Jena [00:29:20] Thank you. I mean I’m in L.A. if I were in New York.

Jameela [00:29:23] Miss like hates children 2022. Look, I’m very glad that you are. I mean, I. I’m actually desperately trying to check. Check in with you now, like, sort of once a month, like a ten minute. How’s it going with Jena? Um, but I think. I think you’re going to be fine. Listen, your instincts have gotten you an amazing fucking career and amazing life, and somehow in this terrible, scary world, you’re still alive. So I feel like we can trust your instincts more than you realize. 

Jena [00:29:59] Honestly, any woman who’s alive. This feels ableist. But if we’re still alive past, like, 35. It’s like slow clap you did it. 

Jameela [00:30:08] Honestly, you did it. 

Jena [00:30:09] You dodged all the, anyway. 

Jameela [00:30:11] Talk to me about your true crime kind of alt. Talk to me about your life moonlighting as a sort of true crime detector. 

Jena [00:30:22] We actually developed the show during the pandemic, and I really love it. It’s it’s not. It’s it’s under the banner of true crime, but it’s really not true crime in the sense of what we know to be true crime. But it’s it’s you’re using true crime almost like a Trojan horse to bring in like white women. You know, to just bring in like the demographic that just snorts true crime to kind of engage them on structural issues and inequalities. 

Jameela [00:30:52] It’s sort of the truth about crime rather than true crime as an what you’re doing.  

Jena [00:30:57] The truth about the criminal legal system. And people so, like, you know, it’s kind of like. Yeah. It’s I don’t want to say it’s like, you know, murder is like pornographic in a sense, but it is for a lot of women. We know we watch true crime. And so it’s just getting that demographic to think about the stuff that they’re watching. 

Jameela [00:31:15] Can I ask something. 

Jena [00:31:17] Yeah. 

Jameela [00:31:17] Why do you think it is so appealing? I don’t watch any sort of true crime because I. I become absolutely certain that it’s going to happen to me that day. As soon as I see that I’ve seen something and I become you know, like I’m like this with everything. So if I hear like anything banging above my head, my first and I am 36, just to be clear, my first thought and the thing that I say out loud is Jumanji is happening. And that is something that I’m not saying to be funny. That’s the thing that I’m sure is happening, and it’s the only possible reason for someone for something to make noise above my head, even though there’s a whole floor of people who live above me. So probably that in my head it’s the exact tiger or elephant from Jumanji. So I can’t my my imagination runs wild. I can’t imagine why anyone would enjoy the anxiety of reading about or hearing about this really heinous shit. But I’m. But I don’t mean it in a judgmental way. I’m genuinely curious. Is it so you can get tips so you can know what to avoid? 

Jena [00:32:22] I think it’s twofold. I think it’s a little bit that. So you can study what people did wrong so it doesn’t happen to you or whatever or you think you can think it won’t happen to you. I also think there’s this kind of it’s like a vicarious like a vicarious, like, well, I’m watching this safe I’m safe and this person isn’t safe, but it’s kind of like a voyeuristic, vicarious murder porn thing going on. But I don’t know. I mean, I think. Yeah, it is weird how many women watch True Crime, but I. I don’t know. So I but. 

Jameela [00:32:55] There’s this sort of cliche joke where men think the women are sort of picking up tips, planning on murdering them. 

Jena [00:33:01] No, that’s only Piers Morgan. I don’t think. I don’t think. No, I mean, I think we we all as you were saying earlier, when you’re walking to like when you’re in a parking lot and you have to walk with your keys between your knuckles or whatever, or you have to pretend someone else is already chasing you. I think being a woman is it’s really it’s just scary. It’s like a horror movie in and of itself all the time and all the different scenarios we can find ourselves in. Just walking home alone at night, going on a date, all the things, you know, being pregnant in a hospital like every every aspect of our lives or trying to not get pregnant in a red state, like or whatever, every aspect of our lives is kind of terrifying. And so just studying up on the worst case scenario that happens to people could kind of maybe either maybe there’s a calming quality to it. But I so I take issue with true crime for a lot of I mean, there are a lot of things about it that I don’t like. So when we set out to do this show, I was like, you know, I want to make sure that we get consent from the families that we talk to. I want to make sure that we don’t show. We don’t get into like the gratuitous details of the murder elements, like we’re not showing crime scene photos, we’re not delving into that. The first act of the show is the crime it’s slower than the rest of the show. It’s it’s the thing that brings in people who watch Law and Order, who like true crime and then Acts two, three and four. We just kind of get more into like this larger issue at hand. And that’s where the I don’t want to say comedy, but levity comes from because once you kind of take it off like the harrowing reality and make it more about the issues that enabled that injustice, then you can have fun with it. And my favorite part of the show is like the third or fourth act where we try to find like. The person who I don’t want to say that one person’s ever responsible, but. The holding someone’s feet to the fire. The defense attorney who enabled somebody to get away with murder by claiming that his client thought that this woman choked on his dick or something like we talked to that guy and we fuck with him, or like the expert witness who got a guy off of murder charges by saying that the wife was a naggy JAP who drove her husband to kill her. I talked to that guy and I mess with him. And so the comedy actually you leave with. My goal is for twofold. One, for people to leave with an understanding of the system so that if they are ever on a jury, they understand kind of the theatrics of it. And the thing I didn’t realize before I started getting into this world is that criminal proceedings are theater with their it’s literally theater like down to the defense attorneys and prosecutors, what they wear, they bring props like there. There are so many elements that are theatrical and you think that it’s about justice, but it’s really about theater. So educating people who could be on a jury as to what the U.S. criminal justice system is. And then the other element and it’s not all about like men who kill women, but I just and this comes from like my Daily Show background, like the idea of like a catharsis or like just holding the people accountable, like just giving them a little bit of shit in a comedic way it feels. I want people to leave instead of feeling the doom and gloom, actually, kind of feeling a little bit of like a catharsis. 

Jameela [00:36:25] Well, it is also quite empowering when you can like, you know, if the moments right find the ridiculous in in terrible, tragic, you know, oppression or any of these things, especially if you yourself or someone is on the receiving end of that oppression. I think it’s important because making something feel I mean, it’s something that I use a lot in my advocacy is that if we can make something feel ridiculous rather than scary and impossible to defeat, then it it makes that thing smaller to us and more manageable. And it makes it feel like us feel armed with logic and and less intimidation. Does that make sense? And so I actually really enjoy, you know, the right amount of humor being used sometimes to point out how absurd, absurd and obscene something is. So you feel like you’re fighting a clown rather than a terrifying ogre. 

Jena [00:37:19] And also. Yeah, and also, I mean, because it’s true crime and there are real families, that was the biggest challenge. But I always cite episode two from season one where you so the long or the short version of the story is this woman was killed and her killer got away with it because the defense attorney said that. That the killer thought this woman choked on his dick and he stayed with the body for two days or three days. He, in my mind, 100% murdered her. But his defense attorney basically slut shamed this woman and the jury. 

Jameela [00:38:01] I don’t understand. I don’t understand. 

Jena [00:38:04] They use this thing called the rough sex defense, which has been outlawed in the UK. No one consents to die. There’s no way that you can suffocate on a dick. It’s not. We talked to a medical examiner in the episode. It’s not physically possible. 

Jameela [00:38:19] Because your nostrils are not plugged. 

Jena [00:38:21] Because it takes like 5 minutes to kill someone that way. And she would have been struggling and there might not even have been a sex act involved. This guy basically just killed a woman. His attorney. And we get into the details of it in the episode, but his attorney did- 

Jameela [00:38:36] Also what, you’re going to not bite down if you’re dying? Come on. 

Jena [00:38:39] All of that. And the and the attorney and also is like we’re covering the story that has been a punchline in the media. The victim’s family is already shell shocked. The victim’s granddaughter actually talked to us. And I was so nervous about talking to her because she’s been through so much. And so the power of that episode was that we took her grandmother’s story and we reframed it for her, and she got in touch with our team afterwards. And she thanked us for being able to, like, take this horrifying injustice and then the injustice on top of it. So her grandmother’s literally murdered, and then the killer gets away with it. And then because of the way that the defense went, it became this media story where everybody’s like, Oh, my God, this guy, this woman choked on this guy’s dick, blah, blah, blah. So she’s like, the family is retraumatized on top of being murdered. She’s also being slut shamed after death. It’s like the most infuriating, horrible story. So you want to cover that story from a feminist perspective and retell it and let the granddaughter say what she had to say. I mean, that is very it is empowering, but it’s also I mean, the sad thing is it’s on AMC Plus and not a lot of people see it, but the rough sex offense doesn’t have to exist. And if we actually could show people. Like not this episode. But just, like, get people aware of this defense. We could possibly do what they did in the UK and ban it. Ban the rough sex defense it’s also called a consent defense. But yeah, I mean, like a lot of the stories that we pick are really infuriating cases of injustice. And so yeah, it’s not, it’s not the comedy isn’t like making light of things as much as it is, just like it’s like righteous indignation. 

Jameela [00:40:20] Well, I think that’s kind of in line with the all of the work that you’ve been doing, you know, from before The Daily Show, since The Daily Show, like, you know. And I think there’s a lot of hope for advocacy in that there’s a through line of that hope for advocacy that comes through all of your work where I don’t think you say anything that you don’t have an intention of hoping to be a part of changing that thing that you’re making fun of. 

Jena [00:40:44] If people see it. 

Jameela [00:40:46] If people see it. 

Jena [00:40:47] We try. 

Jameela [00:40:48] Well, I want everyone to go and watch Lady Killer, and I want everyone to also pay attention to Indefensible. That’s that. We’re calling it a true crime series, technically, but we’ve established that’s not exactly what it is. It’s more a truth about the criminal system series. And I wonder if there’s anything and you can just say no to the answer of this, but is there anything, any message you have to new mums out there? If you could say anything. 

Jena [00:41:16] Help. 

Jameela [00:41:16] Yeah, it’s just so rare you ever. It’s just so rare like I never get to speak to someone this, uh, like, raw. 

Jena [00:41:26] I  know, I would be breast feeding him right now. If we had done at a different time and I. 

Jameela [00:41:30] Which, by the way, you absolutely would have been allowed to do. You know, we are. We are. I’m all just sort of shoulders up. 

Jena [00:41:36] I think I just want men to know I want men to know, this shit. I don’t want women to have to be burdened with anything else. Whether you want a kid, whether you don’t want a kid, whether you can have a kid or whatever. Women we’re already exhausted. I just want men like the reason I’m even talking about this shit and the reason I’ve been, like, tweeting about this. Like, I don’t. I just want men to know what they’re voting on, like, what they’re what they’re like. That’s all I care about. I just want to educate men to know that the shit is hard, that it should not be mandatory, that they should support women’s health as if it’s like it’s, you know, there’s like this. It’s not even a joke, but it’s like, how do you get men to give a shit about abortion? You have to kind of make it resonate with them. It’s like, you know, the. The daughter of your mistress will be forced to have might someday need an abortion too. You know just like getting men to care. Care about this shit because it’s not, you know, it’s it shouldn’t be on us. It’s not a miracle. It’s like, this is science. It’s how this shit sometimes you do it, or you don’t do it, but you can’t just be on the women. It has to be on the system and men to help because it’s fucking crazy. 

Jameela [00:42:44] Dam fucking straight. Then that is a greater answer than I could ever have hoped for. Before you go, finally, will you tell me, please, Jena Friedman, what do you weigh? 

Jena [00:42:54] I weigh, I weigh my family and my friends and, you know, my community. People like you who are disseminating valuable information. I’ve been listening to other episodes of your podcast, which I’m talking about right now. Anyone voting to make lives of over half the population less hard. I weigh I weigh those people. 

Jameela [00:43:24] That’s fantastic. You’re a fucking warrior, mate. And. And I support you all the way and lots of love and call any time. And don’t ever change a fucking diaper. Alright? Promise me now. Zoom pinky promise me. 

Jena [00:43:39] Yeah sure. I know, I’m going to get him changed, okay? 

Jameela [00:43:43] No, no, no, no, no. Our cup of shit runneth over. And on that note, goodbye. 

Jena [00:43:50] Goodbye. 

Jameela [00:43:52] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. We also have a bonus series exclusively on Stitcher Premium called Ask Jameela Anything. Check it out. You can get a free month Stitcher Premium by going to Stitcher.com/premium and using the promo code I Weigh. Lastly over at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 18186605543 or email us what you weigh. Iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our fabulous listeners. 

Listener [00:44:45] I weigh my relationship with my husband and my family and my friends. I weigh my perseverance and my resilience through some really tough times. I weigh the children that I teach and the knowledge that they’re getting from me and from the world around them and helping them make sense of it all.