EP. 44 — London Hughes

IWEIGH-044-20210208-LondonHughes-ACv02-DYN.mp3

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil. How are you? I’m okay. I thought, the week before Valentine’s Day, what the world needs is to hear two people falling at least in friend-love with each other. And so, in this next hour, you’re going to hear me and my guest, London Hughes. You may know her from her hit new Netflix comedy special, To Catch a D*ck, and all of the other many shows she now has on Netflix. We fall in friend-love on this episode. We learn so much about each other, and how similar we were, and how much we wish we’d known each other when we were younger and struggling with our teens and struggling with other kids. This is an episode with so much in it. It’s such an emotional rollercoaster. You will start crying, and then you will end laughing and learning some fantastic sex tips, which are unexpected, at the end. She’s been through so much, and she’s such a shining light for perseverance and self-belief. She was rejected in this industry for, like, 11 years–so many doors slammed in her face–and she just kept going. So, if you are someone who is in doubt, or feeling rejected, or feeling like maybe you’re going to give up, this is the episode that you need because her story is so inspiring. And now here she is over a decade later, absolutely fucking smashing it in the world. And she’s happy. And she’s confident. And the journey to her getting there is one that will just uplift you so much. She should be everyone’s best friend. She’s so accessible, and fun, and funny, and ridiculous, and humane, and human, and cool. I love her. Her name is London Hughes–and if you don’t know, you should get to know. Enjoy. London Dionne Micha Stacey Stephanie Estina Knibbs-Hughes. Welcome to I Weigh.  

LONDON HUGHES [00:02:14] Yay! You did that so well! Most people fuck up. Am I allowed to swear? Sorry. I already swore.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:02:17] Oh, no. You totally can. This is my podcast. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:02:20] Most people mess up on one of them. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:02:22] No. I know what I’m doing. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:02:23] You’re fluent in my names.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:02:24] I’m a big fan. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:02:25] Thanks, babe. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:02:26] How are you?

LONDON HUGHES [00:02:27] I’m good. How are you, Queen? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:02:28] I’m good. I’m good. It’s so fun to have you here. Wow. Okay, so a year ago, you moved to Los Angeles. And you were coming here because you had all these exciting things lined up. You’d sold a bunch of shows and movies. You had a big Netflix special. You just killed at Edinburgh the summer before–2019. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:02:50] Yeah. All these things are correct.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:02:51] And then you get here, and then a pandemic hits. And then we see the death of George Floyd–the murder of George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery–and the rise of Black Lives Matter all while you are sitting here on your own, not really knowing anyone, having no mates, no contacts out here other than your management. And then you sat here for one year while all of your dreams are coming true. Alone in a hotel room. How the fuck are you?

LONDON HUGHES [00:03:26] I’m good. You know what? When you break it down like that, it’s fucking sad. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:03:32] It’s a lot. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:03:32] It’s a lot to unpack. So, I came to Los Angeles in February 2020. And two weeks before I got here, it was great. I mean, before the pandemic, it was great because I was just like, “I’m in America living my best life. Everything’s going to be fine. I’ve got all these things lined up.” And then, yeah. End of Feb/early-March–and everything shut down one by one by one by one. And I was just stuck out here, and I couldn’t go back to the UK because I didn’t know if I went back to the UK, they’d even allow me back in America. And then I didn’t know what’s happening. And I had this Netflix special that Kevin Hart was supposed to be exec-producing. And then that just went, “No.” Like, “See ya.” There’s a question mark. It may happen, but who knows when comedy is allowed on earth again? And then I had these movies that I was preparing to pitch, and then I couldn’t pitch them because everything closed down–Hollywood closed down. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:04:34] You sold a pilot. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:04:34] I had a pilot as soon as I got here. And then obviously all the pilot–the whole pilot season–everything that was supposed to be happening didn’t. And I was just stuck in limbo in Los Angeles in the sunshine. And then there was a race war. So, then I was like, “It’s fine. I’m stuck in this global pandemic, but I’m in America, where the sun is shining in Los Angeles every day. And it’s great.” Then there was the race war, and like… 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:04:59] Police cars were on fire. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:05:01] Police cars were on fire. I’m Black also. I don’t know if you could tell. I’m a Black person. So, like being Black in America– 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:05:10] Being a Black woman, specifically. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:05:12] It’s not something I was prepared for. So, when all this stuff happens in America, it’s really sad, and we feel it in the UK. And I’ve gone on protests of Black Lives Matter whilst being in the UK. But you are in the UK, where the police don’t have guns. So even though you are sad for your American family–cousins across the pond–you’re also aware that you’re in the UK. This is the first time I’d experienced that–all the stuff going on in America–whilst actually also being in America. It was crazy. It was crazy! 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:05:43] And again, like I said, the reason I brought up specifically being a woman is that one of the names I forgot to mention at the top is Breonna Taylor. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:05:50] Breonna. Yep. Yep. Do you know what? It was kind of crazy because I’m such a positive person, and I was getting through the pandemic perfectly fine because it kind of felt cool to be in a global pandemic for a bit.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:06:01] And it didn’t feel like it was going to last very long. We didn’t know it was going to be a month, and then…

LONDON HUGHES [00:06:05] Yeah! And also, I was jealous of Britain because I felt like I was missing out on British history. So, like, every Thursday they would clap for the NHS. And I’m in L.A. And I’d be clapping from L.A. because I just felt when I tell my grandkids–if I ever have children–about this, I want to say, “I remember when this happened.” But because I was in L.A., I kind of felt left out of British history and all the stuff that was going on. So, I was kind of, like, jealous. Like, I was in a global pandemic in a completely different country that didn’t have little things where they clapped for the NHS. They even had free healthcare, so there you go.  

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:06:39] We’ve all just been booing the health care system in America every Thursday.

LONDON HUGHES [00:06:44] Just like, “Boo!” Every week. But yeah, it was just weird. And then it wasn’t scary. But then when George Floyd died, that’s when it got scary. That’s when I was like, “What am I doing here? Maybe I should go home.” And then there was California wildfires, and ash was falling from the sky. And I’m asthmatic, so that wasn’t fun either. So, I’ve been through it. I’ve been through it. I’m still here. But I went through it. It was eight months of purgatory. It was crazy. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:07:10] It’s so bizarre to imagine just what that must feel like of having all of your dreams come true. I really want to get into this with you because I think you’ve had such an inspiring, and interesting, and moving journey towards where you are now–where like, you know, I think a lot of people are just seeing you now, just meeting you now, just seeing your Netflix special everywhere, pictures of you looking like you’re about to fellate a microphone everywhere. In Times Square, there’s a picture of you about to suck off a microphone. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:07:42] In Times Square. Right now. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:07:43] But I think people don’t know how long you have been in the game, so I want to get into that. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:07:49] Well, here’s the thing. America doesn’t know because why would they? I literally got here a year ago, and I’m that new chick that’s popping up on TV. But the UK should know because I’ve been doing comedy since 2009. Comedy has paid my bills. Some people dabble in comedy, and then they work nine-to-five. I have been solidly making people laugh for 11 years to the point where I’ve never had to get another job. I’ve been lucky enough that I’ve been able to do whatever it was–presenting, or stand-up, or acting. The world of comedy has paid me, and I’ve been very happy to do it. But the problem was– And it’s a huge problem in Britain, and I’ve been so vocal about it, Jameela, because I don’t want it to happen anymore. I don’t want it to happen to the next future of Black funny girls out there. But basically, Black women are–not just in comedy–so overlooked, so undervalued, so just like an afterthought, or just seen as something that’s super niche. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:08:48] I hope you’re not insinuating that the UK has any racism because the media have been very clear that there is no racism whatsoever. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:08:55] “Yes. The UK is not racist!” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:08:55] “We just don’t like Meghan Markle. That’s all. Nothing to do with the fact that she’s the only Black woman in the history of the royal family.”

LONDON HUGHES [00:09:03] “Nothing to do with that!” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:09:04] “So I hope that’s not where you’re going with this.” 

LONDON HUGHES [00:09:06] “I am not saying that Britain is racist ’cause it definitely isn’t!” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:09:10] “No. It was you. It was your fault.” 

LONDON HUGHES [00:09:11] “Yeah, it’s me because I was born Black and a woman.” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:09:15] “How dare you.”. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:09:15] “And I decided to do comedy. I should have been a nurse because I would have gotten a job that way!” Like, it’s crazy. Basically, it’s so hard for Black women to be seen as stars in Britain, I believe. And I’m saying this out of love because there are so many Black women that deserve to be stars. I don’t want people to think that there aren’t. There are very talented Black women out there that aren’t getting their shine. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:09:42] A lot of them had to come to America to really feel the benefits of that shine. Look at Thandiwe Newton. You and I were talking about how much we love Marianne Jean-Baptiste, who a lot of people think is American because she’s always playing Americans over in America. Same thing with Estelle. Estelle came over. Some people loved Estelle in the UK. She didn’t get that shine until she moved to America. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:10:04] Oh, my God, Estelle. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:10:05] And she stayed in America.

LONDON HUGHES [00:10:07] Because why would you go back? Do you know what? I remember when that happened. So, I was a huge fan of Estelle before American Boy. She just reminded me of all the older girls I knew growing up in my area. I don’t even know she’s from South London–because I am. And people used to say we looked alike. So, I kind of was into her music. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:10:29] What a hilarious reason to be in her music. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:10:31] ‘Cause if she looks like me, I’m like, “Hey! You look like Estelle!” And then I start listening to her music. And then I remember what happened with American Boy, and Kanye West is taking her, and that song being huge, and me being like, “That would never have happened if she never went–” There’s no way. We’re just talking about music right now, but the biggest soul singer in Britain is a white woman. That says something. It says something in that. And I bloody love Adele. She deserves it. But like, there’s not even someone half as famous as Adele. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:11:03] True. And other R&B singer, Sinead Harnett, who isn’t Black. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:11:07] Dua Lipa isn’t Black. Jess Glynne. Becky Hill. Anne-Marie. All white women. Now, there’s nothing wrong with those women because they’re talented. But you mean to tell me Beverly Knight–? What Beverly? There’s so many– what about Alexandra Burke? Where’s she gone? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:11:27] I know. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:11:27] What about Ray BLK? These Black female stars never got to shine. And so, they just get built up to a certain level, and then you don’t hear from them again. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:11:42] And I’d also like to clear up a misunderstanding that you kind of went through publicly in 2019, where you were talking about this–just being like, “We don’t have enough Black breakout stars.” And you were talking about people who were recognized globally who’d come from Britain–who’d done their work in Britain and were recognized around the world. And people took that as if you were saying, A) that you were that. You were not saying that. You’d only just had your big breakout moment at Edinburgh Festival. But also, you were just pointing out that even these women who then got– You know, because I think people then started bringing up woman after woman after woman–black women–that they felt had been very successful. And indeed, those women were successful. But you were still pointing out that those people still weren’t known globally or even known that much outside of Black households. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:12:39] So I basically did an interview for The Guardian, and the headline was, “There are no Black female household names in Britain apart from Naomi Campbell.” And I still stand by that. Naomi Campbell is the only Black British woman who’s a global sensation–who is black, and British, and global. You would say “Naomi Campbell” in Africa, in Italy, in America, and they’ll know who you’re talking about. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:13:04] You don’t even need to say her surname. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:13:05] You could just say “Naomi.” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:13:09] Naomi Watts is fucked–always has to say her surname. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:13:12] She has to say it. I’d also argue that Scary Spice as well is another one–Mel B. But she was part of a group. I’m talking about solo–just being famous for herself, the work she did. And I said it, and I still stand by it. And it’s not that there’s not any Black, female talent. It’s just because they’re not celebrated. So, for example, we have Idris Elba. There’s so many Black, female actors that could be as famous as Idris Elba. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:13:36] Idris Elba or Daniel Kaluuya. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:13:39] Or John Boyega. Look at all these Black, male actors that get, you know… They’re on the front cover of magazines, they’re the hottest men in the world, they’re this, they’re that. So where are the Black, female–? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:13:48] And same with dark-skinned male musicians like Stormzy, Skepta–

LONDON HUGHES [00:13:54] All these celebrated Black men… And God bless Michaela Coel because I feel like she’s the only one. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:14:02] The two of you are flying the flag. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:14:05] God bless us! ‘Cause that’s it! Oh, my God. There’s so many amazing… Letitia, Wunmi–there’s so many amazing Black women. Susie Wokoma! 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:14:17] Lolly Adefope, who’s now breaking out across America with Shrill. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:14:22] Oh, my God. And I’m like, “Give them their shine.” So, I’ve been very loud about it before I broke out in America. If you just did a deep dive in my old tweets, you’d find a lot of tweets from me going, “Why aren’t Black women given their shine?” and “If I get big, I’m going to go to America. And I bet they’ll respect me more. And I bet I get my own TV show in America before I get one in the UK.” And deep down I didn’t want that to be true. And it’s true. And the moment I realized that I had to leave Britain was not that long ago–it was two years ago. I’d been doing a lot of children’s television–God bless children’s TV because it kept me afloat. I was presenting a show called Scrambled on CITV, weekend mornings. And it was me and three other white people. And it was great. It was a great show. I loved doing it. I got to be funny and entertain the children. Ask the kids about me. That sounds pedophilic. But you know what I mean. “Ask your kids! They’ll know who I am!” So that was my thing. And I was doing stand-up. I was in Fleabag–I was doing bit comedy stuff. I was on panel shows. And I recently did a show called Celebs Go Dating, which was a reality TV show where celebrities like myself got to date members of the public. And the show did so well that a lot of entertainment people kept asking me, “What do you want to do now? What’s your next entertainment thing?” And I said I really wanted to do a travel show. And in the past a lot of male comics get to do travel shows. They would just go around the country. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:15:51] Richard Ayoade’s got one. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:15:52] Richard Ayoade had one called Travel Man. There’s been shows where Romesh Ranganathan went around the world with his mom. Other male comics have been able to do travel shows, but women comics aren’t really seen doing them. So, I was like, “I want to do a travel show. And I want to do one with Whoopi Goldberg.” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:16:12] I love that. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:16:14] For me, Whoopi is like– 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:16:15] She’s God. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:16:16] Yes. She is everything I aspire to. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:16:19] I risked disease by climbing down onto the Hollywood Walk of Fame and kissing Whoopi Goldberg’s star. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:16:29] Wow! 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:16:30] And there’s actually a photograph I got to show Whoopi Goldberg on her show of me spooning her star. That’s how much of a freak I am. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:16:37] I love that! 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:16:38] Yeah. When I was in my early twenties. Growing up, she was, like, the first hilarious woman of color–Black woman–that I saw. And as a young brown girl, all I had was Black women to look up too. And so, Whoopi was my everything. Jumpin’ Jack Flash, and Ghost, and everything else that she did–she was so hysterical. Sister Act. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:16:58] Sister Act–I feel like it changed everything. Sister Act is a film that is, like, 80%-90% Black. But you would never call it a Black film. It’s like she was trans-race. Like, Whoopi Goldberg was just– 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:17:13] She was comedy. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:17:15] She wasn’t seen as a Black woman comic. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:17:16] She wasn’t a person, even. She just is comedy–embodied it. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:17:19] She was just an entity. Right. So I was, like, you know, pulling out my ass. If I could have my own travel show, I’d do one with Whoopi Goldberg. And I would go to America and try and do everything she did to make it in comedy because I want to be the British Whoopi Goldberg. And I told this show idea to a company. They said, “This sounds amazing.” They went to Whoopi. Whoopi said, “Yes.” So, Whoopi agreed. So, we filmed the teaser with me and Whoopi. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:17:46] Shut the fuck up. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:17:48] I can show you it on my phone. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:17:49] Oh, my God. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:17:49] And Whoopi Goldberg is like, “Hey, London. It’s Whoopi. You need to get your ass to America because you said you want to be a comedy queen like me. I give you 24 hours to get here, and we’re going to do it.” It was called Looking for Whoopi. And it’s going to be a show where I go to America to try and be the next Whoopi Goldberg, coached by Whoopi herself. Whoopi said, “Yes.” Whoopi’s in the teaser. So, we have it. No TV channel in Britain wanted it. Not one. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:18:17] Are you fucking kidding me? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:18:22] Not one. I couldn’t believe that in 2018, I had a show of Whoopi Goldberg. Whoopi Goldberg said, “Yes.” She’s in the fucking teaser! It’s not even like she’s just a dream. She’s there in the teaser! Every single channel we pitched it to looked at that–they said, “Nah.” An EGOT-winner and me. And I said, “If I can’t even get a show with Whoopi Goldberg off the ground, then what business have I got doing comedy in Britain?” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:18:57] So that was your sort of rock bottom? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:19:01] “See you later.” I was like, “Bye!” Why am I here? I’ve been doing comedy for ten years. I’ve reached a level in my career where Whoopi Goldberg’s agreed to do a TV show with me, and nobody wants to make it. “Later. Bye!” That was it. And from then I got my visa in America. I started coming out to America for auditions. And I just had my sights set on the States because it felt like I completed it. I’ve reached the boss level in comedy in Britain, and I can’t defeat this boss because of racism–because of systemic racism. So, what am I going to do? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:19:38] Racism and misogyny. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:19:39] Misogynoir–when racism meets misogyny. So, for me, I had to leave, otherwise I would go insane. And yeah, that was the main reason. That was it. I remember when I was trying to get that show off the ground, it never happened. And then that Christmas, Sister Act was on telly, and I was drunk. I was just in my feelings, and I was watching Sister Act. I was just crying–just crying. And I did a tweet. And that tweet went viral. And I basically said, “I think it’s funny that in 2018, I had a show–a travel show–with Whoopi Goldberg and no TV channels wanted it. British comedy, let’s have women doing travel shows and not just men and their mothers.” And that went viral. And a lot of other female comics came forward and said, “Do you know what? I had a travel show idea with this person, and it said, ‘No,’” and “I had to travel show, and it said ‘No.’” And it changed. And The Guardian did a whole thing on it. And now there are female comedy travel shows–more being made. But until that tweet, people didn’t realize how the gatekeepers in British entertainment and British television. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:20:48] Who are all old white men.

LONDON HUGHES [00:20:54] I could cry. No, I’m not going to cry. Holding it back. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:20:59] I was actually crying. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:21:01] Because I remember how sad I was. I just remember, like, if anyone could say, you know, to nine-year-old me, “Whoopi Goldberg is going to agree to do a TV show with you. And it’s not going to get made. And it’s not due to your lack of talent. It’s literally due to some stupidness that people have decided what classes as comedy or what classes as stories that should be told.” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:21:26] What classes as fucking talent. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:21:29] Yeah. It’s just crazy. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:21:29] Aw. Because of COVID, I can’t hug you. But let’s just touch the glass. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:21:30] I’m touching the glass. Yeah. I’m only just remembering how sad I was. I mean, I’m a bad bitch now. I’m all over Netflix. Thank God. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:21:42] You are literally all over Netflix. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:21:50] Poor 2018 London. God bless her. She was a tryer. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:21:53] I love the fact that you have been a voice for calling out the industry–calling the industry in to be better. You know, you love the industry. You see what it can do. You just want it to allow people who look like you in for God’s sake. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:22:05] And for real–like, actually care about. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:22:09] I was a tick-box, I think. Maybe.

LONDON HUGHES [00:22:13] It’s okay. I am a tick-box. Like, we’re fucking great tick-boxes, though–trust me–because we’re tick-boxes that have been on TV for years. So, we had to have been good. We may have gotten in as a tick-box, but we were made. We stayed tick-boxes. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:22:24] Yeah, that’s true. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:22:26] We’re top-tier tick-boxes.  

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:22:27] Thank you very much. But the reason I wanted you on this podcast–for many reasons other than the fact that I think you’re just delightful, hilarious, and I’m so excited about you–but also because I think the year has just been dealt a massive fucking shit on a plate. You know, and this generation, who are just coming into adulthood–the generation most told, “You can be anything you want, you can have anything you want”–all of a sudden are being told, “You can’t have shit, and the government aren’t going to give you anything.” And so for you to have gone through over a decade of rejection and to keep finding the strength, and the lack of ego, and the lack of pride to just keep going to find that determination, to make your own way, to know that there is no seat at the table for you–and how the fuck you spent a decade building your own table–I think that that is the story that the world needs to hear, especially young women, especially young Black women. It’s something that I find so exciting about you. Where did that drive come from? Like, when you took all those knocks– Because, I mean, there have been more knocks than you’ve even just told me about. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:23:36] I’ve had more knocks than I’ve had wins. It’s mainly because I know better. I love stories about people that get told “no.” And I was obsessed with those kinds of stories because you can’t get told “no” forever. You can’t. So, for example, J.K. Rowling–I found out that it took her 15 rejections of Harry Potter to get Harry Potter. So, there are 14 other publications that said “no” to her. And I’m just like, “Wow.” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:24:09] There is a man who is famous for turning down The Beatles. That’s the only thing he’s done in his life is turned down the Beatles, and now he’s famous. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:24:17] Wow. See, this is the thing. Like even Simon Cowell’s story–he got rejected. Richard Branson’s story. So, I was just that girl that would just, like, take in all this information of all the people that I respect or whose careers I admire–and seeing that they’d had a lot of “no’s.” So, I just felt like “no’s” were just part of the journey. So, every “no” made me better. I am so grateful for all the “no’s.” If I had just had “yeses,” I would not be where I am today. I needed the “no’s.” So, every time I got a “no,” I did better. So, for example, the biggest and best “no” I’ve ever had is basically I was watching a lot of American comedy, and I was watching the rise and rise of people like Amy Schumer for sketch comedy. She had a show–The Amy Schumer show–and it was all about her, but she was doing sketches. She was funny. And then Broad City–they had Abbi and Ilana–and they were just like funny, cool, sketchy, loose girls living in it. And then Issa Rae had Awkward Black Girl, and she was just, like, living in it. But we didn’t have anything like that in Britain. So, I was like, “What about young female comedy?” Because as a kid growing up, all the female comics I knew were older. We had just famous ones. We had to be Ruby Wax. We had Joe Brand. They were all older. I was like, “What about girls in their twenties that want to do comedy?” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:25:44] Also, you and I grew up in a time where we watched a lot of telly. And that telly–again, I don’t think I saw anything about young Indians but young Black children, at least, and African American kids–was always about the Americans. It was Moesha and Sister, Sister. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:26:01] That’s So Raven. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:26:01] My Wife and Kids. All of those shows we grew up on. They didn’t have anything like that for young kids. Anytime you ever saw teenagers in UK programming who were Black, it was always in some sort of them being initiated into gang culture. And look, there’s a place for that and an importance for that story to be told because that is the story of some Black people in the UK but not all. Not yours. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:26:25] Not mine. I tell you, no one I know. But that’s the thing. I look for what there isn’t, and so I try to make that. So, I came up with a sketch series called No Filter, and it was just all my thoughts in sketch form. And I wrote all the sketches. I wrote 25 sketches, and I took it to the BBC. And at that time, I’d already had my fifth TV show rejected, I think. And I’d been popping up on different TV shows; I think I’d been in Fleabag by then. And I was a known comedy person, I just never had a vehicle. So, I was like, “This is my vehicle. I’ll do a sketch show.” And the BBC said, “No.” And when they said “No,” I was so frustrated because these sketches were so easy to have done. They could even put them online. I didn’t even want it on TV. I was like, “What about online?” They said, “No.” So, I said, “Okay, cool. I’ll just do it myself.” So, I wrote the sketches, I got my friends to star in them, I directed them, and I started seeing this guy who just so happened to be a cinematographer. And he filmed them. And we put them on YouTube, and they didn’t do well. Like, one of them had, like, 3000 views or 4000 views because I wasn’t a big influencer. I wasn’t a huge YouTuber. So, it was my first YouTube project, and–yeah–a couple of thousand views. And one day a management company in L.A. was on YouTube–and they got stuck in a YouTube hole–and they discovered No Filter. And they were like, “Who’s this girl? She’s great.” And they got in contact with my UK agent, and that’s how I got signed in America–because I got rejected and put my shit on YouTube. It didn’t even go viral, but someone out there discovered them. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:28:08] Love that.

LONDON HUGHES [00:28:09] And if BBC hadn’t said “no,” I wouldn’t have put it on YouTube, and I wouldn’t have an American manager. So, it was just kind of like every failure actually did me a favor. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:28:20] And you’re with that manager now? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:28:21] I’m still with her now. I just bought her a Chanel bag for Christmas. Her very first Chanel bag for Christmas. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:28:29] And so then last summer, you– I mean, before I go into this, were there any moments where you were like, “Maybe I am shit?”

LONDON HUGHES [00:28:38] No. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:28:39] Amazing. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:28:40] Never. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:28:41] Amazing. I fucking love you because I think mine’s been the opposite. Mine has been like, “I’m shit, but I want to try anyway.”. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:28:50] Good for you, man. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:28:50] And so people are like, “What do you do with imposter syndrome?” I’m like, “I just allow it.” I don’t fight the imposter syndrome. I’m like, “You know what? I am a fucking imposter. I’m gonna do it anyway because why would I turn down the chance to try?” And even if it’s embarrassing, at least it’ll be a funny story at the pub or when I’m old. At least it’ll be a really funny story about how I got into this TV show with Ted Danson, ruined the whole thing–it got zero stars–and I ended Ted Danson’s career. Hilarious!

LONDON HUGHES [00:29:22] That’s so funny! I think that’s a good attitude to have, to be honest. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:29:24] So we have the opposite, and yet we’re still doing the same stuff. And I think that’s also good for people to hear–that you don’t have complete humility or, like, almost damaging levels of self-deprecation like myself. And you also don’t have to have perfect confidence, like London did. Where does this self-belief–where does this lack of doubt come from, apart from the fact that you’re looking at shit people do well? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:29:47] Well, this is the thing. I never had it all the way through. So, like, in school, I got bullied a lot and I didn’t realize I was pretty. I still have that. I don’t think I’m pretty. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:29:58] I think you’re pretty. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:30:00] Thank you. Ditto. Like, come on. But I’ll go on stage, and I’ll be like, “I’m a ho! I’m a queen!” But I don’t know if I truly, truly believe it. I know my personality is killer. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:30:10] What were you bullied about? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:30:12] I mainly got bullied about… I had really bad eczema as a kid and, like, kids would call me “crispy chicken.” I was bullied about my eczema and like–. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:30:23] Sorry. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:30:23] Yeah, no, it’s fine. I’m good now. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:30:27] Look at Kimmie trying to suppress her laugh. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:30:29] They would call me KFC. Kids are cruel. So, I had that.  

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:30:38] “Crispy chicken” is amazing. I was called “fat packet,” which is way less creative. But you know, I owned it. When someone new would join the school and be like, “Fat-packy!” I’d be like, “Ah, she knows about me. She knows my name.” I can turn any turd into gold in my mind. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:30:54] No, but it’s true. You’ve got to find…

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:30:58] So, it was eczema? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:30:59] Eczema. I was really nerdy. I used to write Frasier fanfiction. I was that girl that just, like, really wanted to do well–really nerdy–eczema. I just wasn’t cool. And I tried to be cool. And I tried to be friends with popular girls.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:31:18] What ways did you try and be cool? I’m so curious because I tried to be cool as well, but I want to hear about this. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:31:24] Well, like… The popular girls were mainly the Black girls in my school. And the Black girls in my school all liked Sean Paul, and they all liked, like, grinding, and winding, and dancing, and they would listen to rap, and swear, and wear jewelry, and gold, and stuff. And I tried to do all of that. It wasn’t really me. I was forcing it because it’s not me. I’m not that girl, but I was thinking, “That’s what is to be cool, so I’m going to try and be like that.” And I guess the cool kids saw straight through it because they would bully the hell out of me and tease me. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:31:55] Were you more of a kind of Corinne-Bailey-Rae-Girl-Put-Your-Record-On-Girl? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:31:58] Yes! 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:32:00] Right. I understand. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:32:05] I liked Red Hot Chili Peppers.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:32:06] Yeah. I loved the Red Hot Chili Peppers.  

LONDON HUGHES [00:32:13] We come in all different shapes and sizes–Black people. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:32:17] I was called “Bounty”. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:32:17] I was called “a bounty.” And I felt like I wasn’t Black enough. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:32:24] London, why didn’t we become friends? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:32:27] I know. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:32:27] Why didn’t I meet you when I was 14? Where the fuck were you?

LONDON HUGHES [00:32:29] We would’ve been so cool. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:32:31] No, we would’ve been so uncool. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:32:36] No, we would’ve been cool in our own way. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:32:37] I loved Frasier. I know the lines to the entire show. My boyfriend, when we were watching your special together, he stopped the tape and was like, “She’s you. You’re the same. You have to meet her because she’s you.” And then we did. Yeah. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:32:55] Before or after I deepthroat the microphone? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:32:57] It was before. I’m shyer than you. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:33:04] Okay, great. I just couldn’t fit in. I tried. And I had really low self-esteem, and I felt that my self-esteem was basically in the hands of these popular girls. If the popular girls liked me, then I liked me. If they didn’t like me, I didn’t like me. And I spent a lot of time trying to make them like me. And it was hard, you know, because you just lose yourself. You lose what you think is cool. You throw out your Red Hot Chili Peppers and Blu Cantrell. It is what it is. And I was being a fake version of myself, and this lasted all the way to university. So, in university, I got bullied. At 18-19, I was living with girls in a house–a uni house–and they were so horrible to me. Facebook had just been invented, and they came up with this Facebook group. I went to Kingston University, and they had this thing called Kingston University Uncovered, where they would just talk shit about different girls in this uni. And it would be a Facebook group page. And I was, like, the poster child of that. The amount of shit that was spoken about me… Like, “She’s so ugly.” Just lies. They were so obviously lies. People would look at it and go, “There. That happened.” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:34:20] Sounds like my life on the Internet.  

LONDON HUGHES [00:34:23] Yeah, it was just horrible. I just got bullied on the internet. And I knew the girls who wrote it, but I never confronted them because I didn’t like confrontation. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:34:28] So was it quite passive aggressive girl-on-girl bullying? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:34:30] Yeah, it was stuff like, “We don’t think you should act like this.” They would have house meetings. I would come home, and they would be waiting there for me, and they would just lecture me on my life… 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:34:41] What did they think was wrong with your life? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:34:44] So I’m friends with everybody. I’m nice to everyone. So, I would talk to guys all the time. If they said “hello” to me, they’d be like, “You talk to too many guys. People think you’re a skank. People think you’re a ho. You do this, you do that. You don’t wear enough designer. You don’t do this. Your hands–your hair–look shit. Your weave looks shit.” All of that stuff. And I used to work at TGI Fridays at the time, and I would come home from work. Those who work at TGI’s know that you start work at eight and you finish work at one in the morning. I would come home at one in the morning, and there’d be a party in my house that I’m not invited to. And I would sit in my bedroom whilst everyone else was parting in my house. And I’d go downstairs, and they’d be like, “Go back upstairs. You’re not invited.” And it was in my house! That’s the life I lived. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:35:32] That’s exactly why I didn’t go to uni–because that’s what life was like. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:35:35] Girls can be bitches! They’re the worst!

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:35:39] Girls can be bitches. I wouldn’t say they’re the “worst.” I’d say they’re the second worst. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:35:45] Women can be so horrible to each other. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:35:45] That is true. That is true.

LONDON HUGHES [00:35:46] But basically it was that that made me feel really, really bottom of the barrel. I remember being very depressed. I remember thinking, like, “What is my value? And why did I put so much of my value in other people’s hands?” And then I discovered stand-up comedy. And I remember the first time I thought I could be a comedian. Basically, I’d only seen white, male comics–like Lee Evans–on stage. And I was like, “I’m not a white man, so I can’t do comedy.” And I remember people being like, “You’re not funny. You can’t do comedy.” And I’d be like, “Yeah, maybe I can’t.” And then I watched the Lenny Henry Show, and there’s a comic on there called Gina Yashere–and she’s hilarious. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:36:32] I fucking love her. She’s the best. She’s still one of the funniest. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:36:35] She’s still one of the funniest female comics in the world. And she never got her shine. She also left for America. She’s currently living 10 minutes away from me. And she left for America years ago because she never got her shine in the UK. But she was really good on the Lenny Henry Show. And I started imitating her, and people would laugh because I do a really good impression of one of the characters she did on the show. And it made me feel like, “Oh, actually I can make people laugh.” And I started saying funny things, saying outrageous things, making the bullies laugh, making my friends laugh. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:37:06] And so in a way, it’s still that thing of taking your validation externally, but in a way where you feel more in control. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:37:15] Yeah, because after I got a letter from someone, it felt like validation. But I was the one that put myself out there to get that laugh, so it kind of felt like I was in control. And then we had a talent show–Kingston University’s Got Talent–and everyone knew I could dance because I was that girl in the club that was always dancing, and I was always having dance-offs with people. And one of the people in charge of the talent show said, “Could you do a dance at the show?” And I said, “Sure, only if you let me do stand-up.” And he was like, “What are you talking about?” I was like, “Please. I’ve got five minutes. I’ve been working it out. Let me just try it.” And they were like, “Okay, only if you do a dance in the first half, you can do stand-up for the second half.” In the first half I did a dance to Ciara Like a Boy. And then I came offstage–killed it, smashed it to pieces, solo dance. And then I went back on stage in the second half–I did five minutes on the fact that men would rather play PlayStation than fuck me. And that got the biggest laugh I’ve ever had in my life. And that moment I said, “Oh. This is what I’m supposed to do. I’m supposed to make people laugh.” And all my confidence came. And all the confidence that went away that the bullies teared down at me throughout school, secondary school, college, and university. The moment I came off that stage after hearing cheers and applause from a five-minute routine that was about, you know, PlayStation, I kind of realized that this is how I’m going to get my confidence back–by making people laugh. And I just carried on doing it. And I’ve made so many people laugh in my life that I’m a bad bitch now. So, my confidence is through the roof because of all the people I’ve made laugh. And now–yeah–thank you, comedy. If it wasn’t for comedy, I wouldn’t be here. I wouldn’t be the girl you see before you. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:38:59] And it’s also amazing. It’s amazing because I feel like there are so many people who would hear about the second half of that story, right? Like, you’re the girl who everyone knows can dance. You’re the girl who’s, like, asked to come and dance at the talent show. You come on; you kill it. No one would presume that that girl is being bullied and has been bullied her whole time at school. And I think it’s really important to hear about that because I also seemed like someone who was fine because I was the class clown. But again–so lonely–the girl who would never get invited to anyone’s birthdays. I remember we had 60 girls in our year, and I would often be the only girl–out of 60 girls–not invited to a birthday party or a bat mitzvah. And the one time I was, I was on crutches at the time because I used to fall over all the time and I’ve got bone disease, so I’m fragile. So I was on crutches, and I was invited to this birthday party for the two coolest girls in the year. And I got dressed up for it–went out shopping. I’d never really been properly shopping before. I got myself some snakeskin, like, pleather, which is plastic leather, flared trousers–so already it’s not great–with a red crochet crop top, and my belly hanging out because I loved my belly at the time. And my hair in 16–not like braids–but like 16 sort of medusa plants. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:40:23] Nice. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:40:23] So, I’d come at the braid starting from the chin down. It was a look. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:40:27] Yeah. A whole look.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:40:28] It felt more Halloween than birthday party. I was just owning my new style. I’d really made an effort. I turn up, everyone’s like, “You look amazing.” And I’m thinking, “I know.” And then they’re like, “Come onto the dance floor.” I was like, “Aw, no, because I’m on crutches.” And they’re all like, “No, no, no. Oh, my God, you look amazing. Come to the dance floor.” So, I sit there. Oh, no, I don’t sit there. I kind of hobble–literally–onto the dance floor. And I get into the middle of the dance floor, and they take my crutches away. So now I’m only on one leg and obviously within a couple of seconds fall over. And I’m lying on the ground–all chubby and alone. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:41:04] Oh, God. Did no one help you up? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:41:05] No one helped me out. And everyone stood around me in a circle, pointing and laughing at me. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:41:10] What did you do? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:41:11] I had to wait until the parents found out that I was on the floor. And then a couple of parents came, and picked me up, and carried me outside of the party, and sat with me on the stoop until my mum came around to come get me. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:41:25] Oh, my God. How old are you? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:41:27] I was 12 when that happened. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:41:30] And you still remember it like it’s–?

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:41:32] Like it’s yesterday. Like, I just tuned you out just now, and I was right back there. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:41:37] So it’s so funny. I have the same kind of story–birthday party story–that you have, but yours is way worse. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:41:45] Thank you. I love winning. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:41:50] I was the girl who never got invited to birthday parties. And I had a birthday party and tried to invite all the popular girls, even though they never invited me to theirs because I didn’t mind. As long as you can come to mine, it’s fine. And my mum said, “You can have it at Pizza Hut.” And so, I had this party at Pizza Hut, and I made little, cute, little invitations. I gave them out. And all the girls were like, “Hold on. Hold on a sec. Is your mum paying for it or are we paying for it? At that age–we’re, like, 14–so we were getting pocket money. So, I was like, “My mom’s paying for drinks and dessert. But you guys are going to have your own pizza” because we invited, like, 20 people and my mom wasn’t made of money back then. And so, she couldn’t afford to buy pizzas for 20 girls. But we all have pocket money and pizza’s, like, a fiver. So, I was like, “She’s gonna pay for dessert and get us all ice cream, and unlimited ice cream, and stuff, and drinks. But, yeah, you’re going to pay for your own pizzas.” And all the popular girls were like, “Ugh. No, this is ridiculous. We’re not going. We’re not going.” And they staged the whole thing–a whole coup against me–and decided to tell everyone not to come to my party. So, my party still happened. And it was me, and my mom, and a table of 20 empty seats. And I was sitting there, eating my pepperoni pizza. My mom was in disbelief that no one would turn up. She was like, “They’re going to show up. They’re going to show up.” And I was like, “They’re not. They made a whole fuss about it in P.E. They’re not going to come.” And all of a sudden, the door opens, and 20 girls walk in–and it’s all the girls that I invited. And they all walk in. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:43:19] No, no, no… No! No! Oh, my God. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:43:27] They all walk in. They sit at a table opposite. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:43:28] These bitches. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:43:30] And they order pizza and laugh at me the whole time. So, yeah, that’s what happened to me. And they just laughed. And I’m sitting there, eating pizza with my mom. And all the girls I invited are sitting literally on the other side of the restaurant, laughing. And one of them tells the staff that it’s their birthday, and they get birthday ice cream with sparklers in it. And they all sing Happy Birthday. And it’s none of their birthdays. They literally did it to laugh and joke at me. And then I ran out crying, and they burst out laughing. 10 years later, one of the girls who initiated that coup messaged me on Facebook to say her daughter loves me on CBBC. And I was like, “Do you tell your daughter that you bullied her idol?” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:44:23] Did you say that?  

LONDON HUGHES [00:44:24] No. I was just gracious. I was like, “Thanks.”

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:44:26] Okay. You’re bigger than me. But if you’re out there, and you’ve been savaged at school by other girls–

LONDON HUGHES [00:44:34] Or university, or college, or work.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:44:36] Or boys or non-binary people at your school, you know, who you may have been bullied by, like, just know there is a life–there is a whole world outside of those fucking school, and university, or even, like, temp office walls–that you can go out, and break out of the victim that you are, and break out of that situation, and move forward with your life, and find your fucking people. I found my people now. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:45:03] I have found Jameela’s people. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:45:05] Yeah, exactly. Over in L.A. London’s joined my bubble. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:45:12] I’ve joined Jameela’s bubble. I’m very much part of her clan. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:45:15] You’ve got your close mates. And even back home, we found our place in the world, we found our voices, we found our people. And I fucking love stories like this. But I’m really, really sorry that that happened.  

LONDON HUGHES [00:45:32] I’m not. I’m so glad that happened. I mean, obviously it was traumatic for both of us. But I’m like, “Yes!” Because it made us who we are–it made me who I was. I feel sorry for all the girls that bullied me in school because I’ve seen some of their lives, and they’re not great. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:45:55] Bad karma, man. You set yourself up for bad karma when you were young, and you had the opportunity to not be a complete bell end. I never bullied anyone. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:46:02] Yeah! Me neither! 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:46:02] I’ve been a bit of a cunt sometimes on Twitter. And I’ve been sassy. I’ve been sassy back. If someone’s rude to me, I’m rude back. But other than that, I’ve never, ever gone out of my way to hurt anyone’s feelings or to harm anyone. It wouldn’t occur to me. And I also really believe in juju. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:46:17] Yeah, I believe in karma, juju, all that stuff because I’m like, “You get out what you put out?” And there’s a reason why some of the girls that bullied me, you know, are in prison. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:46:39] All right. Okay. Next up, I would like to talk to you about your journey of being a proud, and glorious, and fabulous self-proclaimed ho. It’s what your special is about that’s currently on Netflix. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:46:55] To Catch a D*ck. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:46:56] To Catch a D*ck–also the title of the show that did so well to Edinburgh. It was the most five-star reviews at Edinburgh. And you were, I believe, the first Black woman to be shortlisted for the biggest award at Edinburgh. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:47:10] It’s probably the most prestigious award in comedy. It’s the Edinburgh Comedy Award. And people like Monty Python have been nominated. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:47:18] Yeah, so it took till 2019–

LONDON HUGHES [00:47:21] For a Black, British woman to be nominated. Crazy. But yeah. We Have a show called To Catch a D*ck. It’s–

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:47:26] Hysterical. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:47:27] I love doing the show. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:47:28] And the show’s going great. Everyone seems to be loving it. And I really love the feminist message of you and your ho-dom. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:47:37] Thank you. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:47:37] I think it’s very empowering. I loved watching the video of your mother having to watch this show, in which you are so explicit about sitting on faces and sucking dicks. I also think that, with Valentine’s Day around the corner, a lot of people– 

LONDON HUGHES [00:47:55] This might be the worst Valentine’s Day in the history of… life.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:47:57] It’s going to be bad. It’s going to be bad because last Valentine’s Day, we didn’t know how serious it was. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:48:02] Yeah. We still had a good time.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:48:04] Also, people knew that a lockdown was coming, and they were banging like it was just before the second world war. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:48:09] Right. Right. Hundred percent. Myself included.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:48:11] It was different. Yeah. I mean, everyone was. Yeah. My friend–one of my best friends–said that she was, like, an everyday six but a pandemic nine. And suddenly men who she considered out with her depth– 

LONDON HUGHES [00:48:21] Hundred percent. That’s how I feel in L.A. In L.A., I’m like a nine because I’ve got a British accent. I’m like a unicorn out here. I love it. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:48:27] And I think–in fact, I know this because what my friends are thinking–I did not have enough sex. I didn’t have enough sex with enough people, and I feel as though ho-dom is back in a big way. And maybe you are the…

LONDON HUGHES [00:48:42] Can I be the, like–?

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:48:43] The queen of it. The Pied Piper. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:48:47] I am the Pied Piper of pussies. “Ladies, liberate yourselves! Liberate your vagin!” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:48:55] When did your sexual freedom begin? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:48:57] Do you know what? The reason why I’m so happily a ho is because it began late. So, I lost my virginity at 18–and I only lost it because my friends told me that I couldn’t start uni a virgin. So, they were like, “You can’t start uni a virgin. You got to lose it.” So, I wasn’t holding on to it, but it’s just that I wanted it to be like it was in the movies. And I have friends who have lost virginities in car parks. They’re like, “It’s not going to be like it is in the movies. Just get it over and done with.” And I remember when it happened, I was like, “What’s the big deal? Why was I holding on to it and making it so sacred?” Like, it’s a bit of fun. It was over in two minutes. I think I was watching X Factor when I did it. It was just like, “Cool.” And then I didn’t do it for a while. And then, I think, maybe in my early-to-mid-twenties–that’s when my ho phase started. And it was great. I think it’s so important for women to have ho phases. I have friends and family members that have only slept with two people–one of them is their husband. And I’m like, “How? You’re going to hit 50 and think, ‘Fuck, I need to ho out!’ But you’ve got a husband and kids and you can’t do it.” I just think we’ve got one life that we know of to live. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:50:08] Yeah. And look, everyone’s different. Some of us have only had sex with five people. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:50:16] No, you gotta ho out. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:50:16] But some of us have. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:50:17] I’m shaming you for that. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:50:19] And maybe they’re with the person they’re probably going to be with forever. You know, maybe it’s alright for some of us. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:50:24] You’re going to tell him that you’re going to have ho phase–you’re going to have a separation period where you can fuck and he can fuck. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:50:31] No, I don’t think that’s for me–not because I don’t like it…

LONDON HUGHES [00:50:35] You don’t know you don’t like it. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:50:37] Well, I’ve had sex with some people– 

LONDON HUGHES [00:50:39] “Some?” All of them! You need to have sex with all the people. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:50:44] You know, I’m so desperate to up my number that I asked Manny Jacinto, who is my costar in The Good Place–we have a kiss that’s truly just like a… No tongue. And I’ve asked him if I can count him as number seven on my list. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:50:58] No, you can’t. No, you can’t. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:50:59] Yes, I can. Fuck you, London. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:51:01] That’s not real. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:51:02] But I’m also his seventh kiss, so it was a mutual exchange from both of us. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:51:06] No, no, no. That’s ridiculous. I just think everyone’s different. Everyone likes sex, but I just don’t think women should be shamed.  

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:51:18] A hundred percent. That I so agree with. Yeah. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:51:18] And I’ve been shamed. When I was at university, and I was talking about Kingston University Uncovered–the Facebook page–I was called a “ho.” At that time, I wasn’t a ho. There were real hos out there, going undiscovered.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:51:33] Under the ho-dom. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:51:34] Under the ho-dom. I was actually the face of ho-dom. And I would read all this stuff about me, saying, like, I slept with all these guys in a little car park, and I did this, and I did that. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:51:44] As if you would not do it in an M&S, like a real lady. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:51:48] Exactly! And I remember thinking, “Because I’m going to get called a “ho” anyway, I wish I actually had done all of this stuff.” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:51:55] Yeah, yeah.

LONDON HUGHES [00:51:55] So, when I left university, I was like, “I’m going to just do whatever I want when it comes to sex because I’ve been that girl that wasn’t having sex and got called a ‘ho.’ So, I might as well have sex, and I’m going to get called a ‘ho’ anyway.” So that’s where I feel like the liberation came from. But then also guys talk about sex so much–like, “Oh yeah, I fucked her. Did it.” And I’m just like, “Why can’t we do the same?” And that’s what I feel like To Catch a D*ck is; it’s me just owning my sexuality and the sex stuff I’ve done, so that other women don’t feel shame about their sexual exploits. And I’ve got, like, abortion jokes in–well, one abortion joke in there. And it’s my favorite abortion joke because it’s true. And I’ve had women come up to me after I performed it that are like, “Oh my God, you’ve made me feel good about talking about my abortion because I felt like it was a bad thing I couldn’t say. But you onstage saying that you would have an abortion makes me feel okay to tell you about my abortion. And now it’s not a secret, and it’s not a thing I’m holding on to that makes me feel shame. It’s actually a thing where it’s so part of women’s lives, and it’s the thing that can happen– 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:52:58] Yeah, I talk about mine all the time.  

LONDON HUGHES [00:53:01] But this is the thing–if it’s not for people like us saying it, other people will feel like they can’t talk about it. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:53:05] They carry unnecessary shame. This is what I was saying is that I love your sexually liberated attitude. I think it’s really, really refreshing. I loved seeing a woman talk about that in such a fun, joyous way because often when we hear about women who have a lot of sex, they’re presented as the train wreck. You know, they’re a mess. We have this put together woman, your hair looks great, your makeup looks great, you are on top of life, you are in control, your name is in lights. You are not a mess. You are no one’s sob story. You are a glorious, happy, well-sexed dick-catcher.

LONDON HUGHES [00:53:44] Glorious, dick-catching bad bitch.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:53:47] Love that. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:53:49] We should be celebrating it! 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:53:50] Exactly. We should be celebrating it. Sex is such an important thing. And I’m sure, while I currently don’t have regrets– I’m saying “currently” ’cause I can feel you’re taunting about when I’m 50. But, like, I don’t have regrets. But I do know that I definitely started late because I felt like a stigma.  

LONDON HUGHES [00:54:06] Yeah. Same. And that’s why I did it. That’s why I’ve been that girl that’s been so open about sex. I’ve always been open about sex. We’ve got one life. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:54:19] I read all this stuff up, right? I read all this stuff up. I’ve seen a bunch of your stuff. I swear I have you talking about at 14, learning about different types of blowjobs. Is that my mistake? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:54:31] At 14–yes–I was learning about different types of blowjobs. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:54:33] You weren’t giving them? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:54:33] I was very into them. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:54:35] So you were giving them? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:54:36] No, I wasn’t. I didn’t have anyone’s dick to suck. But I was sucking everything I could, whether it was bananas or whatever. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:54:44] Right. Table legs.

LONDON HUGHES [00:54:46] I was deepthroating so that when the time came to suck a dick, I was prepared. What I was doing was research.

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:54:52] Are you amazing right now? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:54:53] I am so good! 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:54:55] I could sense that about you. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:54:56] You can tell, right? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:54:57] Yeah, I can. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:54:57] Oh, my God. Every guy whose dick I’ve ever sucked has told me that I am the top dick-sucker. I’m so happy. I’m so proud. And because I don’t have a gag reflex as well, it’s kind of like– 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:55:10] What do you mean you don’t have a gag reflex. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:55:12] So I found out at a young age because a dentist told me–

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:55:17] What was your dentist doing? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:55:18] Exactly. So, here’s the thing. You know, when we had to brush our teeth and we had to brush the back of our tongue. That was a whole thing–like, “Brush your tongue.” I was brushing my teeth so much that I decided to brush my tongue to see if I could get rid of the bacteria. And the toothbrush got stuck in my throat, and I couldn’t put it out. And I told the dentist about that, and he said, “It seems like you have no gag reflex. You’ll appreciate that later in life.” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:55:44] Oh, my God! 

LONDON HUGHES [00:55:45] And I had no idea what gag reflex was. I just knew I didn’t have one. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:55:49] What are those comments? I’m very, very bendy because I got Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. And one day a doctor was sort of seeing how far back my leg could go just because he was testing out my sort of hip reflex. And my leg bent all the way back behind my head. And he was like, “You’re going to make a man very happy one day.” I was fifteen!

LONDON HUGHES [00:56:06] See? Pervy dentists and doctors in my head. So, in my head, I was like, “I have no gag reflex.” I didn’t know what gag reflex really was. But it wasn’t until I sucked my first proper dick that a guy– And I guess he thought he had a big dick. And when he put it in my mouth, it disappeared like a sweetie. And he was like, “I’m sorry?” He was just a bit in shock that a girl could make his dick disappear like that. And that’s when I knew, you know, I’m top tier, but… 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:56:40] That is amazing. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:56:41] I feel like there’s loads of girls out there that probably like–you know–want to be good at sucking dicks, but they don’t want to openly ask, “How do I suck a good dick?” because it’s so much taboo, and women want it to be good. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:56:54] So who were you asking? Do you ask the man? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:56:56] My friends. So, in my stand-up, I talk about the A-Team–“A” stands for “Anal.” And they’re a group of girls that weren’t doing it right. They were showing me how to suck dick. They were showing me what to do–what not to do. And I learned everything about sex from my friends. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:57:12] So you talk about The Seagull. Tell me about The Seagull. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:57:16] “Ka-caw!” That’s The Seagull. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:57:17] Say more things. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:57:18] So basically, I suck dick so well, my nickname was “The Seagull.” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:57:25] When? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:57:26] So I’m like 16 and 17 now. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:57:27] So you are actually sucking dicks now? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:57:29] I’m actually sucking dick now. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:57:30] And people are telling you that– 

LONDON HUGHES [00:57:32] Guys–not “people.” Men, boys are telling me that I’m The Seagull. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:57:37] So where does the sound come in? Is that the sound they make? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:57:39] That’s the sound I pretend to make because I don’t have a gag reflex. So, I’m going “Ka-caw!” 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:57:44] Oh, my God. You’re faking. Oh, my God. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:57:49] ‘Cause I don’t have a gag reflex, so I’m pretending. And because seagulls swallow it whole, I guess, that’s where it comes from. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:57:58] That is amazing. Okay. Okay. Talk to me about the ice cream trick. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:58:02] Okay. There’s a trick. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:58:06] That we have gotten through an emotional roller coaster on this podcast episode. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:58:11] So if you watch To Catch a D*ck, if you don’t watch it for the jokes, watch it for the tips because I have a whole bit where I talk about the tricks and tips that I learned in my late teenage years about sucking dick and sex. And the ice cream is one of them. Apparently, ice cream was an aphrodisiac. I didn’t know that. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:58:28] Really? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:58:29] Yeah. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:58:31] Both my producer and I both perked up. We had no idea. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:58:36] I was dating this guy–it would just be too much pressure for him to keep an erection. Sometimes that happens. And what you do is you go and get ice cream; you give them ice cream. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:58:55] You give it to them, or you give it to their dick? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:58:57] No. That’s how you get a yeast infection. You give it to him. So, give him ice cream. Something happens where the dick-brain and the brain-brain align, and you’ve got about 18-19 seconds of strong dick, and you can jump on that–ride that into the night. And that is what happens. Ice cream trick. I don’t know why. I don’t know why, but every time. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:59:19] This only happens one time with you? Have you heard that this has gone on to help other people? 

LONDON HUGHES [00:59:22] No, I’ve been told this by other people. And I tried it on my boyfriend at the time, and it worked. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:59:28] That is amazing. That’s fascinating. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:59:31] Straight out of the freezer. Don’t play around. He is about to go in, it goes limp, run to the freezer, get ice cream, give him the ice cream, give him about a minute. He’ll be back. He’ll be ready to go again. I don’t know why. I think it’s the sugar, the cold. I don’t know. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [00:59:45] Yeah, there was that swimmer who, like, swam the freezing cold tunnel and then had a semi, and there was nothing he could do about it while he’s collecting his medal on national television. 

LONDON HUGHES [00:59:55] It happens. I’ve done this show so many times, and I get so many tweets from older couples about the ice cream trick. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:00:04] Oh, that is fascinating. And then finally, tell me about “the Gucci handbag.” 

LONDON HUGHES [01:00:08] Yeah, the gouch. So obviously, there’s a part in a man’s life that’s sensitive. It’s a little strip.

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:00:16] Not a part in a man’s life. It’s the part of a man’s body in between his balls and his asshole. In America, they called it the “taint.”. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:00:21] Which is terrible. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:00:23] It feels terrible. A word. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:00:26] Call it the “gouch.” And I discovered that if you lick that gouch– 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:00:30] Right. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:00:31] Any grown man becomes your bitch. Literally like, “I’m obsessed with you.” The manness–the masculinity–just flies out of his body. If beautiful to witness. I’ve seen the hardest men–the most macho, masculine men–get reduced to tiny lesbian puppies, literally. I can’t describe it. It just lets me know that we are all fluid and no one is 100% masculine or 100% feminine because I have seen the most masculine men become tiny, dainty. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:01:15] Lesbian puppies.

LONDON HUGHES [01:01:17] Yeah! And they’re just so little, beautiful princesses. And the noise that comes out of their mouths I’ve never heard before. And they don’t know because they’ve never experienced it before, so they’re scared. And you just feel so much power as a woman that you’ve made a man do that–like, just convulse in a mess. And that is what licking the gouch does. And I call that a “Gucci handbag” because every girl deserves a Gucci handbag. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:01:42] Oh, I fucking love you. You are so fun. Everyone should go out and watch To Catch a D*ck. She said, “If you’re not doing it for the laughs, do it for the tips.” You’ll leave a better lover, and a happier person and for sure, in love with London Hughes. I am rarely left speechless, but you’ve done it. We have been through so much together. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:02:15] I cried in front of you. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:02:17] You did. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:02:17] Again. Second time I’ve cried in front of you. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:02:19] I know. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:02:20] We’re actually friends in real life. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:02:21] Yeah, it’s official. It’s only been a week–literally a week–right? 

LONDON HUGHES [01:02:26] You make me cry! It’s you! I’m a bad bitch! And then I’m around you, and I’m a hot mess. I love that we’ve been able to talk about this. Please do more. I know you do so much, but please continue stuff like this because it’s so important to talk just freely and openly. Some of the things we discussed today I’ve never been able to do on a podcast because, you know, there’s always a theme–we have to drink a shot in between, or we’ve got to solve a murder mystery. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:02:55] No, I like to come on and cry at 11 a.m. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:02:58] It was so cathartic, and I’m so glad I did it, and I’m very honored. Thank you so much for having me. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:03:02] Well, thank you for sharing. I mean, these are the conversations we have. Last year just sort of kicked the door open on all of our hearts. And I feel as though this is the year to now take that and turn it into something. Now, let’s start just running at change–individual change, cultural change, climate fucking change–just all the big changes. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:03:25] Sex change. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:03:25] Exactly. Exactly. Any kind of change you are desiring. So, London, before you go off with your busy life to continue just smashing America and even breaking it, will you tell me, what do you weigh? 

LONDON HUGHES [01:03:38] I weigh my positivity and how I somehow miraculously come back, and bounce back, and never, ever, ever let anything fully get me down. I also weigh my gag reflex because I am top tier at sucking dick, and that’s very important. Bigger than that, I weigh leaving a legacy. That’s what I want to do. I want to be the young Black girl I never saw on TV growing up. And that’s why I do what I do. That’s what I weigh. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:04:15] Love that. Love that! Love you. And I’m so happy that you’re here. Thanks for opening your heart and your sex book to us all. Thank you very much. You’ve done a great service. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:04:32] While I’m here, can I just plug everything I’m on? 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:04:35] So many things. She’s all over the place. 

LONDON HUGHES [01:04:38] So, please, if you’re a fan–if you liked what you heard–just please watch To Catch a D*ck on Netflix, streaming now. Please also watch the Netflix Afterparty, which is Netflix’s first ever chat show hosted by myself, Fortune Feimster, and David Spade–streaming now. And please watch The History of Swear Words, which is a fun show hosted by Nicolas Cage–but I make very funny appearances. Stream it now. And just live your best lives. And that’s about it. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:05:05] Do it all.

LONDON HUGHES [01:05:06] Yay! Thank you for having me. 

JAMEELA JAMIL [01:05:07] Love you. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music that you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. I really appreciate it, and it amps me up to bring on better, better guests. Lastly, at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 1-818-660-5543 or email us what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. It’s not in pounds and kilos, so please don’t send that; it’s all about your– Just– You know. You’ve been on the Instagram. Anyway. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners. “I weigh being Latina and Hispanic and my passions of science and music. I weigh my ongoing mission to be an ally to any person oppressed in today’s society. I weigh my Catholic faith and being a good sister, daughter, and friend. I weigh embracing myself and being a headstrong, passionate, and hardworking teenage feminist. Above all, I weigh a person trying her best to improve the world we live in and much more.