EP. 119 — Sofie Hagen

Jameela [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil podcast against shame. I hope you’re well. I’m a I’m in a good mood because I’ve had an extremely stupid 24 hours and if you were following me on Instagram this week, you’ll know what I mean, because I got to go to a film premiere. Very clear that I haven’t been to one of those in over two years and that I was extremely starstruck by everyone there from all of my behavior, including the vaguely disturbing video of me trying to just sniff a bit of the air near Keanu Reeves. Just because Keanu Reeves. I can’t believe he was there. I can’t believe I’m in a film with him. It’s an animated film. It’s called The League of Super-Pets. It’s part of the DC universe, I play Wonder Woman. And it is so fun. And I got to meet Keanu and have selfies with Keanu and he’s so good and so great. And I got to meet the Rock for the second time in my life. The first time I met him was 14 years ago. I was doing it was like he’s like one of the first celebrities I ever met or interviewed for my new job. I was like still an English teacher at the time and being tried out as a as a journalist. And he was so kind to me. And it was kind of the beginning of him becoming a movie star. He’d been a famous wrestler, and and he’d had to overcome so much snobbery. So much skepticism about his capacity to be a film star. And so he was kind of breaking through at the time. And it’s been so amazing to watch from afar cause I never got to meet him again. How he has destroyed, like, absolutely obliterated any skepticism whatsoever. And he’s like the last of the great movie stars now. He’s one of the biggest stars in the world, and he’s done it without ever becoming a dick, without ever abusing his power. He’s such an unproblematic fave. We all have especially me so much to learn from the way he carries himself and how he uses how big and powerful he is. Not to make other people feel small, but to make them feel as big as him. He’s just pumping everyone up around him and I got to see him again last night at the premiere, and I couldn’t believe that I’d gone from having a three minute interview with him where he agreed to arm wrestle me, which obviously I won, to now, 14 years later, I’ve been beyond my wildest imagination starring opposite him in a film. That’s so stupid. It’s too stupid to even deal with. And so yeah, I fanned out really hard at him, at Keanu at Vanessa Bayer who’s also in this. The cast is Wild. Kevin Hart, Olivia Wilde, Marc Maron, John Krasinski. Uh, I, I’m sure I’m leaving Diego Luna. So great, everyone. And this is so great. And then me. Why am I there? They’re all A-list, and I feel like they’re more like the wahey list. So I went full competition winner and if you saw my Instagram this week you’ll get it you saw it you’re a little bit maybe embarrassed for me. That’s cool. But I made a decision, guys, before I stepped onto that red carpet. I went to my inner 13 year old self and I said, This day is for you, kiddo, because you had a shit time as a child. And so just let your freak flag fly. And boy did I. And I embodied everything proudly that I always tell you to do, which is when you feel like an imposter. And I literally was an imposter. Come on, fuck was I doing there? Don’t allow it to make you feel bad or unwelcome or insecure. Treat it like you have crashed a wedding and you are there to get as much cake and free shit as possible. That’s what I did. I really walked the walk yesterday, guys, for better or worse, I was my truest, most authentic, imposter, proud self. And I it’s the only I think is the only time I’ve ever really, truly had that much fun on a red carpet. I really want to spend time reconnecting with my inner child more and allowing myself to be as silly as possible in such a stupid, self-serious, pretentious, nonsense industry. So expect to see more of that. Expect to hear more about that sort of stuff. I’m really sorry. I get it if you abandon me. But I had a fucking blast and you know, I got to kind of sniff Keanu and he smells like dignity and goodwill and grace. None of which I smell like I’m sure. I just smell of old cake. Anyway. That’s how my week was. I haven’t looked at the news in 24 hours, which is probably why I’m in a good mood right now. And so I just wanted to share that with you and tell you I love you, because I don’t think I would have gotten to a place of that authenticity without the help of this podcast and this podcast community and all the messages and the letters that you write me. I feel like we are all on a journey to our true selves together via some of the excellent guests and via the work that you guys are all doing on your own away from this. And today’s guest is absolutely no exception. I think that she is someone we can all learn so much from. Her name is Sofie Hagen, and she’s truly the greatest joy on the Internet. One of the funniest people I’ve seen on stage offstage on TikTok. You should go and find everything that she does and says and tweets and writes, and you should listen to her podcast, Bad People. And it’s just. So unpretentious, so thrillingly authentic and honest and taking everyone on her learning journey and taking everyone through her very, very personal experiences and I think just represent something that I find so loving and frank and and progressive. She’s not a punitive person. She’s made her own mistakes and owns them all and is here to make herself better and invite as many people along to the ride as possible, which I think resonates a lot with me. And we talk about a lot of varied things and and her mental health and her experience with her body as a fat person. And I think so movingly, she talks to me about something that isn’t discussed enough publicly, which is how the pandemic, whilst also being incredibly traumatic for a lot of fat people because people are randomly blaming COVID on fat people based on very poor science. At the same time, they finally had a break from having to be outside where they receive such endless obsessive observation and commentary and rudeness and abuse and a world that doesn’t fit them, that is made to feel like they aren’t welcome, they’ve got to have a break from that. And that was actually very peaceful for a lot of the mental health of a lot of people who exist in bigger bodies. And I think that’s really fucking beautiful and devastating that it took that for them to be able to feel at ease and to be able to feel welcome and safe. And we talked about what it’s like to come back out of that and the kind of culture shock of like, oh, shit, nothing has changed enough. So that’s an incredible conversation. And she talks about it so elegantly and humanly in a way that I think will resonate with a lot of people regardless of their experience. And we also talked about our shared struggle of being too honest and whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing. What we want from other people. We talk about the world at large she’s extraordinary when it comes to not only her own inner reflection, but also her observations around the world. And it’s what makes her a great stand up and a great voice of our generation. So please enjoy the excellent Sofie Hagen. Love her so much. Sofie Hagen, welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

Sophie [00:08:27] I’m good. How are you?

Jameela [00:08:28] I’m good. You look especially beautiful today. I feel as though I am sad the world cannot see you. So we’re definitely going to have to use some sort of clips. How are you feeling?

Sophie [00:08:41] I’m good. I’m really good. I’m in a I mean, one of those you know, how therapy is always like two steps forward, one step back, two forward, one step back. I’m in the forward, forward bit right now, so I’m very good.

Jameela [00:08:55] Is that a straight after therapy or is that just when you’re going through a long period of therapy?

Sophie [00:09:00] That’s all of therapy. It’s all progress.

Jameela [00:09:03] Okay.

Sophie [00:09:03] So you’ll take two steps forward and then you’ll go, Oh, actually, this is a bit scary. Let me just take one step back to what’s safe, and then when you’re done feeling safe, you can take two more steps and then you go, Oh, hang on, one step back. So in my therapeutic progress, I’ve just had a massive step back where I was just absolutely incapable of functioning for a couple of weeks and then. Something happened and now I am ready to take more steps. I don’t know if that sounds really woo or weird.

Jameela [00:09:37] Sounds a bit smug. No, I’m joking.

Sophie [00:09:40] Oh, I am so smug about this.

Jameela [00:09:42] Notoriously smug, yet notoriously smug Sofie. I am so happy to hear that you’re feeling good and strong today. I really after speaking to you on the phone the other day, I was I was really sad that we didn’t know each other when we were young. Because I feel like we would have been.

Sophie [00:09:59] That would have been cool.

Jameela [00:09:59] I feel like we would have been friends.

Sophie [00:10:01] I’m. I was hard to be a friend with.

Jameela [00:10:07] Is that you rejecting the fictitious version of our friendship as children. That’s great that’s fucking great.

Sophie [00:10:15] That’s me warning you. That’s me saying good luck. Good luck with that. I think what I took away from our phone call the other day was that I think I think we’re very similar in that. And this is also going to sound really smug. I I’m I’m honest by default. To the extent where it’s not always doing me favors.q Like, I feel like everyone can see if I’m lying. So if I lie, it’s a very deliberate thing I have to really focus on and and think about which, you know, I should be doing a lot of the time, you know, especially when talking on podcasts or with the press or on a stage, you should be thinking an extra time about what you’re saying. And I don’t I just blurt it all out. And I think I’ve always done that. And I couldn’t understand when people were lying because I just couldn’t understand why people would make the conscious decision to to do so.

Jameela [00:11:10] I, I know exactly what you mean. And I have been a devastating truth teller most of my life. And sometimes my truth isn’t even the correct thing to say, which is what leads to some relatively unfortunate moments online. But I, I, I speak before, I think, and I think I’m kind of wrestling with finding the line because there’s a part of me that feels as though women in particular, but anyone socialized as female, are conditioned to not speak our minds and to not have the freedom to be allowed to figure things out and maybe get something wrong and maybe then learn in real time and come back better. So maybe it’s okay to have representation of people who, you know, who do just go with their gut and don’t wait for the perfect level of education or the perfect words before they speak out, especially if they exist in social justice where it’s all a fucking emergency like the house is burning down. There’s not time to always wait until you’re an expert. Especially not for me. And you cannot read, so I can read. I just find it very difficult and time consuming. But what I was going to say is that. So finding that line between like making sure that I’m not oppressing myself, but also not causing a huge amount of unnecessary mess and chaos to other people.

Sophie [00:12:36] Well, can I ask you, do you also it does it work the other way for you as well? Do you also need would you also prefer the truth to be told to you quite directly.

Jameela [00:12:48] I’m almost aroused by blunt truth. I personally cannot bear small talk. I cannot bear pussyfooting around shit. I cannot. I cannot handle. I cannot handle anything. And I can sense it immediately. I cannot stand disingenuousness. And I don’t mean in like a judgmental way, as in like I start to actually panic. And it’s some of the only times I feel really genuinely anxious. And if I think someone’s lying to me about anything, especially about me, I immediately just want to shut down and push them away. I don’t even want to attack. I just feel deeply unsafe. And so all of my friends are terrifying truth tellers and extremely blunt towards me. And I think that’s been really good, especially considering I’ve had this glitzy career full of bullshit. And so I was desperately in need of people who would keep me extremely grounded. And they have. So I think that that creates a bit of a problem for me because I love blunt honesty, even if it’s on the cusp of rude or is rude. And I think because of that, it’s taken me most of my life to understand that other people do not feel the same way. And I feel like you and I both have a big obsession with what is fair and what is right and what is truthful and just. And so I think because we’re so obsessed, both of us, with the pursuit of that moment, of that connection with someone where the absolute most utmost truth has been exposed. I think that it can distract us from, you know, societal norms. And while I think a lot of societal norms are bullshit and lie and oppression and and respectability politics and often mean that really important things don’t get said and people don’t get the help that they need. There is a, as we said earlier, the balance of timing. I don’t know if it’s especially helpful, but something I’ve been doing that has been getting me slightly better results with people is to ask for their permission to tell them something extremely blunt.

Sophie [00:14:44] Hmm. Yes. And also, I’m very I’m not good at phone calls and very good at voice notes and sending videos. So that’s how I communicate with most of my friends when I don’t see them in person is voice notes, because I will listen to what they have to say. And then it will take a couple of minutes of thinking, you know what? What state of mind are they in? How do they sound? What do I know about them? Okay, this is not the time for me to say. Well, you fucked up, didn’t you? This is a time for me to just listen and ask questions or, you know, that has really changed a lot because once it’s a phone call, I can get very into my own head because I’m still I’m still I have CPTSD and I’m still very much in a constant state of fight flight mode, which essentially means that my entire nervous system constantly think that we’re under threat. So there isn’t a lot of excess energy to deal with what is essentially smaller things compared to, you know, being chased by a tiger. Stuff like, you know, giving an extra thought to people’s emotional state. You know, if you’re being chased by a tiger and someone’s like, Oh, I’m a bit sad about my boyfriend, you’re not going to go tell me about it. You’re going to just scream, well, dump him then and keep running, right? And that’s often where it comes from, because I don’t have that space unless I really place myself in it.

Jameela [00:16:07] Is that getting better with therapy, because I find that the clearer my head becomes the easier it has become for me to become a more considerate person. And I do think that’s important. I really don’t like it when people just go, That’s just how it is. I do think we have to I do think we have to be malleable. One thing you’ve been speaking about recently is how much better you have felt in the last two years. Obviously ebbs and flows, but because of the pandemic, you have been freed from society’s like quite rampant and violent fatphobia. And it is something that I would really love to talk to you about, something that we haven’t really spoken about on this podcast in this exact context. But the way you describe the peace that you and other friends who are fat have felt during the pandemic, in spite the fact that online and in the news, there was a lot of attack of people saying they are more predisposed to get COVID and and they were the cause of the fucking pan- like it became absolutely bonkers. We just went from group to group to group of just blame rather than looking at the government failing, failing ever miserably. But you were still from not having to go outside, spared people’s unsolicited opinions on you and your health and your size and the way that you look. Can you talk to me a bit more about that? Because I think a lot of people at various sizes can relate.

Sophie [00:17:34] It was and it was something I, I probably still feel irrationally a bit guilty about because, and I think everyone who got anything positive from the experience of the pandemic and the lockdowns, we very much feel like we should not have we should not have been anything but horrified throughout the whole thing. And we also were that, of course we were. But I found it interesting to see the reaction I had when, you know, when the government started pretending that it was, you know, not happening anymore. So it just opened the world and I began having to go outside. And the difference, because I was for a year, two years, I mostly been inside. I barely you know, I didn’t go on public transportation. I didn’t go out to eat. I didn’t go to the theater. I didn’t, you know, fly anywhere. And I’d forgotten how it felt. Because one thing is the comments, of course, are people shouting things in the street or people looking at you or.

Jameela [00:18:34] Yeah, of course, but that’s objectively fucking crazy. But yeah.

Sophie [00:18:37] Yes, yeah, that’s true. But that’s also I kind of prefer that to the other stuff where it’s so subtle that you can’t. It’s not even it’s not even visible to anyone, which is where it’s so for example, sitting down on the tube in London and there’s only a certain amount of seats that I can fit into the ones at the very, very side of it, like the end, which is where you usually only sit if you’re pregnant or have a disability or anything like that. So you already feel really bad about, you know, taking up that that space because you’re like, Oh, no, this is the only place I can sit. But there’s also the, you know, people would rather stand than sit next to you. And if they do sit next to you, this either like an aggressive elbow in the side because you kind of want to show that you shouldn’t be taking up a bit more space. And this the, you know, people being completely crammed together, but no one sits next to you. And the general feeling of not being welcome anywhere. You know, walking through the streets, realizing that doesn’t you can’t fit into any of the clothes in any of these shops. You know, you’re not represented on any of the billboards. There’s a there’s a constant like, can this chair hold me? Or should I not be sitting down? Oh, this chair has armrests. Okay, so I’m going to need to ask for a different chair. And it’s just a constant reminder that the world is not built for you. And no one really wants there. And, and at the same time, there will be all these adverts about, oh, you know, the news about how fat people are, the reason that the pandemic is there or I mean, the reason for everything evil in the world. So it’s it’s a lot of a minuscule attacks.

Jameela [00:20:39] Yes. Death by a thousand cuts.

Sophie [00:20:41] Yeah. That I don’t expect. I don’t even expect then people to notice these things. And even when that doesn’t happen, there’s the fear of it happening. So even if you go for a whole day and no one has shouted that you’re a fat bitch, you should kill yourself. You still like when you walk past someone, you think it’s this? Oh, okay. No, he didn’t shout. Okay, okay, good. You know, there’s still that, you know, even if you can fit into the seat, that’s the moment of all the anxiety around it. Oh, will I get that seat? The one seat I can fit into, you know, and all of those things weren’t there when I was at home for two years, you know, and that it it place it made me realize how. How much time I spend leading up to leaving my house, just gathering myself and strengthening myself and going, okay, you can do this. And then how much time I spend after I’ve been outside on just calming my nervous system again and like who? If you survived, let’s just take a day where you don’t do anything away, just calm yourself down. And that’s a lot of time that I have spent my entire life, you know, either preparing for or recovering from just these very subtle aggressions that are constant.

Jameela [00:22:04] Yeah. I’m really, really sorry. And it’s also I mean, I’m sorry and I’m glad because I’m I think it’s so shit when it becomes hyper normalized to have to deal with with these things like there’s something because because even if your brain has kind of processed this as normal. Your body is never processing it as normal. Your body always understands you’re under attack. So you’re just internalizing all of this stuff but carrying on and kind of just braving through it. And and so it is really important that so much of the world in many different ways was able to see, oh, there’s a different way of living like even I think for a lot of women being inside, men no longer feeling not as that pressure to look a certain way or do their fucking eyebrows or whatever, but to not feel scared of men. Those are the women who are lucky enough to not be locked in a house with a scary man. But for a lot of us not having that that daily feel, like I remember being in the house and realizing, Wow, I’ve gone a week without my having to do what I talked about with you I talked about with you on the phone like death maths of like, how am I going to get home safe today? Is this Uber driver going to kill me? Is this man who’s walking behind me on the street at night going to kill me? Am I safe to walk my dog at this time? Can I wear this shirt? Can I wear this skirt? Like, should I wear heels or will I not be able to run fast enough like all of these different things? And so I think I hope a lot of people can find different ways to relate to exactly what you’re saying that we really got a glimpse of in so many ways. It was so horrible and so scary and so awful, such a failure of society. But there were kind of shining moments of shit we could just feel so much calmer. And safer all the time.

Sophie [00:23:46] One of the things I spoke to a lot of my fat friends about was and at first I thought it was just me, but then I spoke to a bunch of us about it and a lot of it, and as a lot of us had had really great experiences with our doctors, like I had, because it was all over the phone and I was speaking to my doctor and he was so and I think it was a new doctor because I hadn’t met with him before and he was just so nice to me and he was asking all these questions and I was just like, I’m so happy that my new doctor is great. And then I spoke to a bunch of other people who had the same experience, and we kind of all realized at the same time, Oh, they don’t see us. That’s why they’re so nice, you know?

Jameela [00:24:27] Because of the rampant Fatphobia in medicine. Yeah.

Sophie [00:24:30] Yeah. Because that is not. I’ve never had that with a doctor before. It’s always the, you know, I go in and say my finger hurts and they’re like, Yeah, let’s measure your BMI. You know, it’s always that that is always the issue. And and that was in fact, like the first time I because I got a dog during lockdown as well. And the first time I took my dog to the vet and they were so nice to him and they were asking so many questions about him. And I was like, Wow, wow. Is this what it’s like being thin and going to the doctor? I mean, is this what it’s like being like a thin, you know, white straight man going to the doctor? Like, do they then care and ask all these questions? You know? And it was it was very surreal. And yeah, and I and and of course, at the same time, you know, you have all the fear because you’re told, you know, oh, the when you get the vaccine, you have to ask for a bigger needle because some of the needles don’t actually work on fat people. And a lot of the people who give the vaccines haven’t been informed about this. So there’s suddenly you think, oh, but I just had the vaccine. Did that not work? Then how can I?

Jameela [00:25:39] There’s no information. Everything’s your fault.

Sophie [00:25:42] Everything’s. Yeah, yeah. And everything is new. And then when you. I did, when I got the second shot, I, I told, I said it so I said to him, I said before you do anything, can you just can we just check this thing about the needle? Because I don’t know. And he was immediately like, Oh, you’re gorgeous. Don’t worry about it. And I was like, No, this is not I really couldn’t care less about what you think of me.

Jameela [00:26:04] I hate that response so much.

Sophie [00:26:05] I couldn’t care less just tell me if I will die from COVID if you don’t do this.

Jameela [00:26:10] Oh, my God. But the amount of people who say to my friends, you’re not fat, you’re beautiful and it’s like the two things are not mutually exclusive, for fuck’s sake. Good god.

Sophie [00:26:19] It’s such a-

Jameela [00:26:21] Let’s evolve beyond that, please, everyone. In fact, you talk a lot about this and we’ve spoken about this in the podcast before, with like, you know, Stephanie Barber and and Aubrey Gordon, that fat is just a descriptor and it is not a word that we should feel afraid of. And there’s an inherent but I can’t believe people would rather hear, obviously it’s up to you. But when I was a fat person, I didn’t want to hear the word overweight because the word overweight felt like I was being criticized, something I was over, something I was too much of something. Being called fat just felt the same as thin or mid. Like, it just felt like a descriptor of what I was. It felt literal and I refused the stigma that came with that word.

Sophie [00:27:01] Though. When did you did you never have a negative reaction to fat?

Jameela [00:27:05] I did as a child. Of course I did as a child. But once I became older and I got criticized for my weight on the front cover of magazines, it really just hit me. You know, I was a radio deejay and I couldn’t believe that it was anyone’s I mean, it should never be anyone’s business, ever. But it’s like if you can’t even see me, you just need to know that I’m thin over the airwaves. Then that is. That is like, so fucking fucked and terrifying. And none of my male colleagues who were all a lot of them, the same size as me or bigger, none of them were subjected to this. So that’s when I found like a deep love and appreciation of my body and a fight back. That then led to my feeling really safe in that word and wanting to reclaim that word. But when I would say that publicly, it took a long time for that to be received well, because a lot of people don’t like it for very good reason because it is used as a slur. But, you are part of the movement in reclaiming it.

Sophie [00:28:00] I mean, and I feel like for me it wasn’t even. I mean, there’s so many layers to why it feels bad for so many people. And I remember it feeling bad for me. It was. It was because. A lot of the time when you’re fat you spend so much energy and time and if your whole life revolves around hiding it. You know, you don’t want anyone to see, you know, you’re wearing all the black clothes with the stripes and the going, the right direction. And you, you know, you’re sucking in your belly and you’re sitting from a certain angle and you’re taking the photos from a certain angle. If you do take photos at all and there’s everything goes into hiding it. And if anyone ever mentions food or exercise or anything like that, you’re so quick to say, yes, I exercise three times a week and I only eat salads. And also I’m working on this and I’m trying really hard and I am doing it and I’ve actually lost weight. So everything you do is this Please, please don’t see that I am fat. Please don’t notice it. It’s temporary. I’m not going to be like this forever I’m going to lose weight very, very soon and then everything will be fine. So when someone said fat, it was more about feeling seen in a way that I did not want to be seen. Like, Oh, they know. But I was wearing this black top and that was meant to be slimming. So it wasn’t as much the fact that they told me that I was fat. It was more, Oh, no, I didn’t hide it well enough. I can’t hide it. And there’s something about how much we do not want, and which is also why people have the reaction when they say, you’re not fat, you’re beautiful, because they just people also don’t want to see it. You know, they don’t want to have to deal with the fact that you’re fat. You know. So that’s why people go, hey, have you tried this new diet? It really works, you know, because people just want you to be thin. They want you to either not exist or be thin because even me just existing as a fat person makes people uncomfortable. And especially thin people, it makes thin people very, very uncomfortable.

Jameela [00:30:10] I feel like, at least from your, you know, online content, your book, your podcast, you have come to a, um, a more stable place with how you feel about it. And I really love the way that you dress, and I really love the way that you show your body online. And I love your clothes and I love how open you are about dressing and about how you put yourself together. I think that you’re extremely transparent. How do you feel now about all of this stuff, or is what you’re saying current all these worries and concerns? Or does it oscillate? You know, not everything has to be a perfect fucking victory story. I just I’m just curious, because there’s so much toxic positivity out there where now and I think it’s rooted in something wonderful, but there’s so much of kind of like accept yourself, accept yourself, queen, like love yourself at any size. And then if you’re like fuck, if I if I don’t love myself, I’m a bad feminist or I’m fat phobic and I’m failing again and so it’s another thing you’re failing out. So I was just wondering.

Sophie [00:31:10] We went from we went from being not good enough at being thin to not being good enough and loving ourselves when we’re fat, you know, it’s there’s always something we can’t be good enough at. I generally don’t think that much about my body. Yesterday do you know. Have you had Substantia Jones on your podcast?

Jameela [00:31:36] No.

Sophie [00:31:37] From the Ad Positivity Project?

Jameela [00:31:39] No.

Sophie [00:31:40] Oh, she’s this incredible photographer who has taken nude photos of fat people for so many years. And it’s almost like a rite of passage. You know, if you’re fat, especially if you’re a fat activist, you have your nude photos taken by her. And I did that last month and it was released yesterday.

Jameela [00:32:01] I saw the picture and I went and looked.

Sophie [00:32:04] It’s beautiful, isn’t it?

Jameela [00:32:05] Yeah.

Sophie [00:32:05] Photos are so beautiful.

Jameela [00:32:07] It’s gorgeous.

Sophie [00:32:08] So. So when you’re asking me this today, it’s like, well, yesterday was the first time. Like, it was all out there, you know, it was the exact opposite of what I have been trying to do my first 20 years of my life which was trying to hide away and not show anything at all. And now there’s nothing. There’s nothing left to hide. Right. You know, I was the photoshoot was on a rooftop in Brooklyn, and she said, go and stand by the rails. And I went to the railing and stood and then realized that I was standing right above a drive in theater. And there were 60 cars all pointed at my direction. And I was just butt naked arms stretched out. Just and it was it was the most free I’ve ever felt. And it also felt like the last drop of.

Jameela [00:33:09] Acceptance.

Sophie [00:33:10] Acceptance. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was like, well, this there’s nothing more. Now there’s nothing that hasn’t been shown and this is just it and that.

Jameela [00:33:18] And the world doesn’t stop turning.

Sophie [00:33:20] The world doesn’t stop turning. I have not died because of it.

Jameela [00:33:25] You’re not randomly struck by lightning?

Sophie [00:33:27] Yeah, I was just.

Jameela [00:33:28] It’s amazing.

Sophie [00:33:29] And that’s very much the feeling I have right now. It’s like, this is it, you know? This is how I look. I’m never going to be thin. I’m never going to try to be thin. I just look like this. And whenever it is a problem for me and whenever it feels bad, it is because of, you know, not being able to travel because I can’t always afford two seats on the plane. It’s not being able to go and see my favorite musicals unless I get that one of those six seats that I can fit into. It’s just the the limitations or, you know, they’re very human things of you have a crush on someone and in the back of your head you go would they though? And you hate that that’s the first thing you think of. And then you hate that it’s probably true. And, you know, it’s that’s just a very. It’s not even because I’m not lonely. But it’s. It’s an. It’s because it’s so subtle and you can’t pinpoint it. And then you have these like you see how the other people live and you kind of know you’re being excluded from something.

Jameela [00:34:41] Sound like the Little Mermaid.

Sophie [00:34:45] Well it’s more like Ursula isn’t it? So those are the things. And it’s mainly to do with society and other people’s fatphobia. Those are the things that can it’s just really annoying.

Jameela [00:35:01] That’s the kind of explicit point of all of this, is that this is all coming from the outside in. When you’re standing feeling beautiful and powerful with a very accepting artist who is making you feel gorgeous, you feel great. And when you are speaking to a doctor over the phone and getting the treatment that you actually need, rather than just being given a keto plan and no pills or no scans, you know, when you and I spoke on the phone, I told you that, you know, a few of my friends have almost died because weight loss has been the prescription for some really, really serious shit that was going on in their body, especially their reproductive systems. And when you get to exist in your home and you don’t get hurled abuse at or you don’t have to make difficult phone calls like the one that you put on TikTok that went viral, which I loved so much of you phoning an airline, and I’d never seen anyone do that before and asked them for two seats. And when they asked you why you need two seats just for one name, you explained that it was your size and you were met with a very neutral and like professional response.

Sophie [00:36:03] He didn’t care at all.

Jameela [00:36:04] And there was such a like subtle but like deep relief in your eyes on that video. But I fucking love that you put that on the internet because we don’t have enough we don’t have enough things like that. We don’t think about the phone calls that people have to make and the things that they have to ask about and the positions they have to put themselves in just to accommodate basic fucking comfort is something that I’ve spoken about in the podcast. I think with Aubrey Gordon was the ways in which, you know, mates can be more of a support is sometimes a the ultimate is that we live in a world where no one feels ashamed about having to ask for an extra thing. And I think people with disabilities also face the same kind of shame that shouldn’t exist. But as friends, if you’re booking a restaurant, you call the fucking restaurant and make sure that the chairs are big enough or strong enough or whatever. Or, there’s two chairs available. If you’re booking a holiday, you maybe have that conversation so that in case the person on the other end of the line is a fucking cunt, then your friend isn’t going to have to deal with their ignorance. There are ways that and I don’t know if you agree, but that’s just where I was going with Aubrey. There are ways that we could, like, not shield, but just step in and support.

Sophie [00:37:18] You won’t find anything where I don’t agree with Aubrey.

Jameela [00:37:23] Yes, I know. Aubrey is god.

Sophie [00:37:24] And if I didn’t, I would change my mind so that I did agree with Aubrey.

Jameela [00:37:29] I want to change my name so I could be Aubrey like I’m obsessed.

Sophie [00:37:33] I wish I was Aubrey. I. It’s funny because I was my it my instinctual reaction to that was. I just. I mean, I’d be fine if they just acknowledged that it was the thing.

Jameela [00:37:48] Your friends?

Sophie [00:37:49] Oh, wow. I’m. I’m really settling. Yeah, well, my friends who aren’t fat themselves, at least, right? Yeah. You know, it’s instead of it’s not even that they’re expecting me to make the phone call is that they don’t even know the phone call has to be made. And I was just realizing. Oh yeah. That would feel even that would feel amazing if they were like oh do you need a specific seat or let me, can you. Even if they were like oh can you check the seats for this restaurant where we’re going? Even just the acknowledgment that I need something extra would have been such a relief. Because one of the other things that are about, you know, calling the airline and those things the what actually feels. What was going through my mind when I was telling this customer service person that I needed two seats and when he asked why, so my words would be, Oh, I’m fat, so I need two seats. But then I go, because I’ve said that before when asking at a at an airport, I asked if they had a seat with a free seat next to it. And I was like, Oh, because I’m fat. And the woman started crying because she was, I don’t know, sad for me. I don’t know.

Jameela [00:39:01] Fuck me.

Sophie [00:39:01] And then I had to sort of, you know, oh, no, no, it’s okay. And then it became a lot about her and, you know, and I get it. And then so then I began faking shame so that they wouldn’t feel as bad. So then I would be like, I’m sorry. It’s just that I just. I’m just a bit I’m just a bit big and, you know, so that they would, you know, so they wouldn’t be as shocked or so you know, they would, I don’t know, you.

Jameela [00:39:26] Would draw in their empathy for you rather than them make it about themselves.

Sophie [00:39:30] Right. Yeah. Just to sort of not scare them. I don’t know. It becomes all about them and their feelings and that’s that thin feelings can be some of the most fragile feelings in the world. And I’ve had it so often with friends. If you go, Oh, I can’t go to that restaurant, I can’t fit into the seats. And then it becomes this like, Oh no, but I’m so sorry. And we didn’t know. And then again, it’s me having to go, Oh, no, don’t worry about it. And it’s fine. And I’m used to it, and then I’m comforting them because my fatness has made them distraught, you know? And that is one of the things I’m the most tired of. It’s this having to. Having to comfort thin people for being uncomfortable with the way I look.

Jameela [00:40:20] Right. And there’s a lot of theories about why that is. And some people think it’s because people are so afraid. Similarly to the way again, I’m not comparing like fatness to a disability, but there are certain different groups who people are so afraid of that happening to them that they stay they sort of shut thet shun it because that they they’re overwhelmed with the feeling of their own fear about them eventually. Almost, almost as if it’s contagious.

Sophie [00:40:49] I had, you know, Rosie Jones, you must know Rosie Jones?

Jameela [00:40:51] Yeah.

Sophie [00:40:52] Yeah. She’s this incredible British comedian. She has cerebral palsy. And when she did my podcast, we talked about that there was a that we both felt the same way about receiving abuse in the street, where if we’re alone, when it happens, it’s like, Yeah, that sucked, but it’s fine. But if we’re with other people who are not, you know, in my case fat and in her case disabled, and then someone shouts abuse. That is the worst that could happen, because then we feel bad that they had to see that. You know, it’s this sort of, oh, no, now they will be really sad because someone shouted at me.

Jameela [00:41:32] Or are they going to react and turn it into a thing?

Sophie [00:41:35] Yeah. Then they’re going to be really sad. They’re going to be shocked. And, you know, I feel bad that they have to. I mean, seven years ago and I had to tell my best friend that was very, very thin and conventionally attractive when I had to tell her that Fatphobia existed. She cried for a week because she was so she was so sad that this was the thing and it was so much emotional labor to kind of, you know, help her through this crisis. And I think I’m just, I know how sad. I know, you know, we live with this every day. You know, when you’re fat, you know, you do kind of get used to it and you do have your own way of processing it. And it’s a lot for people who’ve never met it before to suddenly have to realize, and I’m not going to be a saint about this, like when it comes to other, you know, minorities or other types of oppression, where I’m the one with the privilege, I’m exactly the same. My instinct is always to make it about myself and, you know, to start, you know, projecting all my feelings onto the person who was oppressed because I’m a human being. And it’s just about learning to stop yourself before you do the the wrong thing, before you do the thing that isn’t helpful. And a lot of people just haven’t done that yet. And I’m part of that. You know, I’m still trying to learn to not react by censoring myself, which is the unfortunately, the most normal reactions I have.

Jameela [00:43:09] Post that photoshoot and post pandemic. You are feeling in a stronger, more neutral place about your body. But you hoped during the pandemic that that feeling of safety could be what we go back into with the world. Do you feel as though we have improved at all?

Sophie [00:43:36] No. No, not no, I don’t think so. I think I know that’s not the most.

Jameela [00:43:45] The only reason I ask. No, no, no, no. You can give any answer you want. I only say that because a lot of people ended up gaining a lot of weight or changing the way they look or stopped wearing so much makeup or stopped getting so much stuff done or couldn’t go to the gym or didn’t want to go to the gym and just kind of released themselves from the prison of societal expectations because they didn’t have to. They could just wear sweatpants and be comfortable and just fucking eat and live without the fear of judgment, which I think people can feel at many different sizes. But obviously that is so much more extreme if you do not fit within society’s confines of what is acceptable. And so that’s kind of why I was wondering if there has been any kind of shift, because I feel as though conversations that I hear online have become somewhat more accepting. But I also accept that it’s a wide spectrum of those conversations.

Sophie [00:44:32] I’m I’m really happy that you say that, because that must mean that there has been a shift. What I think happens is the shift happens in another layer of fatness. I think it’s sort of the same as body positivity where it’s been really, really good up until a certain size. And I don’t experience that because I’m like, I think I qualify I don’t know if that’s the right word as a super fat. And that is usually about the size of 28/30 in U.K. sizing. I don’t know. There’s no official, you know, scale. But I’m at the point where. It’s like I feel like when I was a lot younger, everyone wanted to be a size zero. And I feel like now, you know, people can be a size 12, a size 14, and, you know, they still experience discrimination. I mean, to be fair, so do the size zeros because people hate women. Right. But and so I think now maybe it’s easier to be a size 16 than it was before. Maybe it’s easier to be an 18 than it was before. But I don’t see that up where I am, because people people might be a bit more accepting, but they’ve not gone all the way up to me. Not yet. You know, body positivity still has a lot of people who are saying things like, Oh, it’s okay to have a few extra pounds, you know? And within that saying, it’s like, but there is a limit, you know, and there’s still the as long as you are healthy, as long as you are, you know, and there’s still a certain weight where you can look as if like, yes, you have a few extra pounds, but you’re probably healthy. Where I’m at the place where people look at me and they assume it’s like they know exactly what I eat every single day and what kind of exercise that I do not do. And, you know, they they have had it drilled into their heads from such a young age that people who look like me behave a certain way, eat a certain way, you know, and just am a certain way.

Jameela [00:46:42] Yeah. You said that even you used to associate fat with lazy or.

Sophie [00:46:47] Oh yes.

Jameela [00:46:47] All these kind of different things. Like you had your own.

Sophie [00:46:48] Lazy, unintelligent.

Jameela [00:46:50] Yeah.

Sophie [00:46:50] All the classics, you know, were either hypersexualized in that, you know, we’re sexually aggressive or we’re completely nonsexual, you know, just don’t even have a sex drive. And, you know, they’re all you know, you’re bad, you’re desperate, you’re lonely. There’s so many stereotypes surrounding fatness and that people just have those, you know, people just still have those associations. And I and maybe that’s changing, you know, for lower, lower weights. But I’m not seeing that at my level. Not yet. You know, there’s still a long way to go.

Jameela [00:47:26] And I think it’s important to have this conversation because as I said earlier, there’s so much toxic positivity that we don’t get to have these conversations with people. And a lot of people aren’t even visible either because they’ve been erased or they don’t choose to make themselves visible because it’s fucking intense. I know that you’ve dealt with some serious, serious trolling, and I really appreciate you being willing to put yourself out there as a voice for this incredibly important discussion. And sometimes we’re not always at the happy ending of this. I’d say we almost never when it comes to our society. But it’s really important to have this conversation to remind people that this is still happening and that you don’t get to decide when the cut off is that people are afforded humanity.

Sophie [00:48:09] But also and this is just a very personal thing, but I’m weirdly being quite self reflexively happy about had this been three years ago, maybe four years ago, I would have felt really angry right now. I would have felt angry that someone else were benefiting from this thing. And I, you know, my reply would have been a lot.

Jameela [00:48:33] Wait. When you say that you’re talking about the fact that there are people who benefit from the diet culture and who benefit from.

Sophie [00:48:39] No. Who are who. I would have been I would have been like, I’m trying to see if I can channel my old self. I would have been like, well, I don’t I don’t care that it’s easier for some people because it’s still not easy for all people. You know, I would have gone that route and I was just realizing that when you told me that it seems like there’s a more accepting tone, I thought, Oh, that’s so good. I’m so happy about that. And I think I think both you and I have gone through the same experience of learning publicly.

Jameela [00:49:13] And I don’t know what you mean.

Sophie [00:49:14] And being wrong in public.

Jameela [00:49:15] I’m so sorry. I’m completely perfect.

Sophie [00:49:17] I mean, I really didn’t want to be the person to tell you this. I have. I have some printouts of all your tweets.

Jameela [00:49:23] Yeah. You and the rest of the fucking Internet go on.

Sophie [00:49:29] And I. I just. I think I just saw myself. In the light of who I like, how I would usually react to this. And I think that’s part of where’s the place I’ve reached right now, which is where I can I feel like I can contain more. So I feel like I can contain the joy that things may have shifted in the in the good way. And I can also contain, you know, oh, but it’s not finished yet. But it doesn’t have to hurt my soul, you know? And I’m. I’m. I’m quite happy about that.

Jameela [00:50:05] Yeah because you can also be proud of yourself for that, because it’s a) hard, but b) not encouraged.

Sophie [00:50:10] Oh, definitely not.

Jameela [00:50:12] Rage, outrage and division and all these things are the things that get the most clicks, the most attention, the most applause. And and I understand that. But also, it doesn’t feel very good. It doesn’t feel very good to to not have any hope or to not notice any progress. And I feel as though we are a very all or nothing generation, and we need to work on that because it it breeds hopelessness. It breeds spectacular hopelessness. And and that hopelessness will eventually turn into people not trying anymore, because what would be the fucking point?

Sophie [00:50:43] Can I give you an unpopular opinion?

Jameela [00:50:45] Oh, all the time.

Sophie [00:50:48] I think no, I don’t think I am pretty sure there is a lot of people who are very traumatized, understandably so, who cannot make the distinction between personal trauma and activism and who get it mixed up in a way that is understandable and to an extent also very okay. You know, it’s not about policing emotions or anything like that, but there is a point where you go, Oh. This isn’t helping the cause. This is damaging the cause. So. For example, the cis people who are who think that there are that they’re helping me or non-binary people by attacking anyone who uses my pronoun she and they’re doing it so aggressively that it’s very clearly them getting something out of it emotionally. You know, they love being this righteous person who is like, excuse me, you’re a piece of shit.

Jameela [00:51:57] Because it makes them feel good about themselves. Like they’re doing something, they’re making a difference.

Sophie [00:52:00] Yes, it’s an emotional thing, but they think that what they’re doing is activism. And if you’re a cis person trying to fight for trans people, what you need to do is not do that, you know, if it’s a non-binary person doing it. Absolutely. Fair enough. You know, except that this is your opinion, you’re allowed to express it. You know, if you’re trans.

Jameela [00:52:19] Just don’t make it about yourself.

Sophie [00:52:21] So I feel like if you are part of the group, feel like show your feelings, express your feelings. I don’t care about you being in any way, you know, productive in your whatever you react to. But if you’re a cis person trying to do a non transphobic thing, like trying to help trans people, that is when it’s your job to calm down, you know, like when I as a white person talk to other white people about racism, it is my job to not go to not start shouting because I suddenly feel emotional about something because that’s not going to help turn these people into better people. It’s my job to do it in the way that might be uncomfortable for me.

Jameela [00:53:10] The most effective.

Sophie [00:53:11] Exactly. That’s. Then I have to try and be the most effective. And I think a lot of us could benefit from learning to separate our trauma from what we do on the Internet.

Jameela [00:53:22] Seyi Akiwowo was on this podcast and said she thinks it’s really important their activism is trauma informed, but not trauma led. And I think that that’s just one of the most perfect descriptions for what all of us need to be looking out for. I mean, I’m definitely guilty of that, so I’ve rolled it back the more mentally stable. I’ve become chilled the fuck out and found different and more helpful mediums. Like I’m less active on social media now because we have such a big listenership on this podcast, and I get to talk in long form with people who are more educated than me, and I get to help more people in a more real way than I can in 280 characters when I’m in a bad mood and I’m incensed and I can’t separate ignorance from evil and I’m having an emotional reaction rather than a cerebrally led emotional reaction. Yeah, and we’re all just fucking animals.

Sophie [00:54:14] I’m the same. Yeah, I’m exactly in the same place where I mean, I still I’m still on social media a lot. But it’s been a while since I’ve had a rant. You know, it’s I do in fun little reels where.

Jameela [00:54:26] No you found a way to use comedy and you found a way. You found a very clever way.

Sophie [00:54:29] I’m having such a good time on social media. And it’s also partly because, I mean, people who are, you know, shouting, it’s worked like I’m just not. I can’t be bothered. I can’t be bothered, you know, with the you know, then there’s a journalists who I mean, I still get questions from journalists about tweets I made five years ago. And you just it makes me so tired. And it’s always it keeps me from doing my job, you know? Oh, I do comedy. And then suddenly there’s this, you know, oh, but you can’t both be angry and a comedian. And, you know, of course you can if you’re George Carlin or in other words, a man. But if you present as a woman and you’re angry on the Internet, you’re unhinged. You know.

Jameela [00:55:16] That’s fair because of periods.

Sophie [00:55:17] It’s a period thing yeah it’s constant period.

Jameela [00:55:20] Everyone’s crazy. Yeah, I get it. I’m with the men here. For anyone out there who is living in a body that, as we’ve described, is still exempt from the correct, dignified, humane treatment. What words of advice, if any, do you have so they can get to the place of peace that you got to in order to take the photographs that you took and put them on the Internet and make the tiktoks that you make. And and to get to this place of peace that you are in the region of.

Sophie [00:55:59] I mean, I want to be really just corny and be like, read my book.

Jameela [00:56:04] You can say whatever you want. You can also tell me to go fuck myself, like.

Sophie [00:56:08] Oh, that would be fun wouldn’t it?

Jameela [00:56:09] Yeah, yeah, do it. Let’s fight.

Sophie [00:56:10] Let’s stage a really aggressive argument and then it’ll go viral. That’ll be fun. I mean, obviously read my book because that that would be really fun for me if you did that. And then but and also I used to answer this question a lot more militantly and I used to be like, Oh, you need to because what help for me it doesn’t I’ve now realized doesn’t necessarily help for everyone because my brain functions in a very and this dysfunctions in a lot of very different ways but I thought that it was a fact my entire life. I thought it was a fact that fat was bad and thin was good. And for me, things started to change when I learned about the boring words like systemic oppression and sexism and.

Jameela [00:56:56] Capitalism.

Sophie [00:56:57] Capitalism oh the big one, and how it’s all connected and how essentially, if you boil it down, the reason that you hate your body is because. I mean, a group of men sat down and decided that that’s what you should do. And it’s all about money. It’s all about money and power. It’s all about men wanting and needing, money and power. That is what it all boils down to. And that is so much easier to distance yourself from than, you know, just having your own personal feelings. Right. So for me, it felt. I used anger and defiance. As a motivation to be like, hang on, if I hate myself, I’m doing what these men want me to do because they want to make money, where if I just have a great time and I eat whatever I want and I do whatever I want, and I just tell myself I’m amazing. And then I believe that I’m amazing. That is true. That’s my truth. You know, that’s not less true than someone who thinks the truth is that I am disgusting.

Jameela [00:58:10] And it was true when you are locked inside. So it doesn’t get to be untrue just because you’re faced with other people’s fucking behavior. That’s great.

Sophie [00:58:16] Yeah. And I mean if you want to get really you know, it was true.

Jameela [00:58:21] Go on. Put the tin hat on, no I’m joking.

Sophie [00:58:22] It was true when I was a tiny baby, you know, it was just tiny, tiny babies. And we came out and we had a little chubby stomach. We were adorable and beautiful and perfect. And there’s at no point did that change unless, you know, you became a tory. But again. Nothing to do with looks.

Jameela [00:58:44] I’m so glad you said that. I’m so fucking angry at tories.

Sophie [00:58:48] I mean, how could you not be?

Jameela [00:58:49] Listen, I, I really appreciate you. I feel a lot of the same things. We talk about it a lot in this podcast that there is a joy to the revolution of self-acceptance, because it means that you don’t buy things because you feel sad. You buy things when you want them. You buy less things and you just have a nice time. As I’ve learned the more and more, I’ve managed to conquer this stuff. Before you go, Sofie, will you please tell me, what do you weigh?

Sophie [00:59:18] I have spent my entire life running away from my weight. And I. I weigh, I think, 152 or three kilos. And that’s a neutral fact. That’s how much I weigh. And that’s the answer to the question, right?

Jameela [00:59:42] Yeah.

Sophie [00:59:43] You know what I mean? And I’m a lot of other things, but I weigh 150 something kilos.

Jameela [00:59:49] I love you.

Sophie [00:59:50] It makes me so happy. It makes me so happy. That’s just what I weigh, period. There’s no need to there’s no need to like, you know.

Jameela [00:59:58] No need to hide from it or run from it anymore.

Sophie [01:00:01] Yeah that’s what I weigh!

Jameela [01:00:01] I appreciate the freedom in the way that your face looks. As you say that and the way that you smile, it makes me really happy. Thank you so much. You’ve been a joy and I can’t wait to talk to you again.

Sophie [01:00:14] Same. Samesies.

Jameela [01:00:18] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. We also have a bonus series exclusively on Stitcher Premium called Ask Jameela Anything. Check it out. You can get a free month the stitcher premium by going stitcher.com/premium and using the promo code I Weigh. Lastly over at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 18186605543 or email us what you weigh. Iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our fabulous listeners.

Jameela [01:01:09] Here’s an I Weigh from one of our listeners. My two rescue cats and childlike joy I still have within me the lives I’ve saved or helped as a doctor. The love and respect I’m finally finding in myself. Thanks therapy. Those are wonderful things to weigh.