EP. S2E34 — The Last Of Oscar-Us w/ Matt Apodaca & Cody Ziglar

[00:00:26] ASHLEY RAY: Okay. TV Club, I am so, so excited for this episode. There was so much TV this past Sunday. We got a lot to get into. There was the Oscars and more importantly, for us TV folk, The Last of Us finale. Who cares about that movie thing? Oh, movies are so important you had to make a TV show about it? Exactly. Exactly. And my guest today, I had to bring in Cody Ziglar, Matt Apodaca–two amazing, amazing people. Look, I don’t know anything about the Last of Us video game or really anything that is cool. So, I had to bring in people who are cool and know about cool things. You know, Cody. He’s an Emmy-nominated writer/producer for She-Hulk: Attorney at Law, Futurama, Rick and Morty, Robot Chicken, also former Earwolf producer and legend, according to my producer. And Matt–comedian, writer, producer, co-host of the popular Get Played podcast, and a current Earwolf producer.

 

[00:01:20] MATT APODACA: That’s right. Still trying to cement my legend status.

 

[00:01:22] ASHLEY RAY: Still building that legend up. Thanks so much for joining me.

 

[00:01:29] MATT APODACA: Thanks for having me.

 

[00:01:30] CODY ZIGLAR: Of course. Thanks for having us. Any excuse to yell about video games with Matt, even though we have a very rivalry– Look, we seem like we were enemies, but we were actually really excited to talk about video games.

 

[00:01:41] MATT APODACA: We text every single day.

 

[00:01:42] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, we do, actually, every single day.

 

[00:01:44] ASHLEY RAY: I’m excited to get into it. I have not played the video game of The Last of Us. Personally, I think the show’s doing a great job following the Wikipedia synopsis of the video game that I did read. But it seems like the criticism I’m seeing is very video game focused. So, we’re going to get into that. First, we’re going to do our watchlist. Did you watch anything else this past weekend other than The Last of Us at the Oscars?

 

[00:02:08] MATT APODACA: Oh, man. You know, I’ve been watching a lot of stuff. I just finished the–

 

[00:02:12] CODY ZIGLAR: Name one thing.

 

[00:02:12] MATT APODACA: Okay. Yeah. Actually, I’m watching so much TV right now, it’s just really hard to think about. But, you know, I finished Poker Face, which I really, really loved. I’m watching Shrinking as well, which I’m also really enjoying. And this is my first season of Survivor that I’m watching as it airs.

 

[00:02:32] CODY ZIGLAR: Fun.

 

[00:02:33] MATT APODACA: Last week was only the second episode, but the premiere this year was a mess. One of the most unhinged things I’ve ever seen on TV. Unbelievable.

 

[00:02:44] ASHLEY RAY: People are telling me to start Survivor this season. They’re like, “Yeah, it’s still early. You could get in. It’s wild.” And I watched all of The Traitors UK. I’m getting more into this kind of reality show. I did start Farmer Wants a Wife for you, listeners. It’s, like, the most fake reality show. It’s as though someone just cut pieces of other shows and put it together. Like, he’s talking and he’s like, “I don’t know. People ask when I want kids, and I say, ‘Five years ago.’” And then off camera you just hear women go, “Oh, wow, that’s really nice. That’s, like, so sweet. Wow.” I don’t think I’m going to finish it, but I think I could get into Survivor. I think I could.

 

[00:03:28] MATT APODACA: It was an early pandemic binge for my girlfriend and I. We watched ten seasons back-to-back to back. And then we took a break for like, well, two years. And maybe two months ago, we jumped in at season 41, 42, 43. 44 just started airing. It’s really great. If you watch one season of Survivor, you’re going to watch at least three. You’re just going to do it. It’s great.

 

[00:03:55] ASHLEY RAY: Okay. I mean, I said I’d never get into Below Deck and now I’ve watched 13 seasons of Below Deck.

 

[00:04:01] MATT APODACA: Are you a TV crier? Do you cry at TV?

 

[00:04:04] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, I do.

 

[00:04:05] MATT APODACA: Okay, well, then, Survivor–you’re going to cry every single week.

 

[00:04:08] CODY ZIGLAR: Really?

 

[00:04:10] MATT APODACA: I weep watching that show. Yeah, it’s great.  It’s such a release.

 

[00:04:15] ASHLEY RAY: I mean, I have never heard that from anyone.

 

[00:04:17] MATT APODACA: I cry all the time watching it. But I’m also famously a big baby.

 

[00:04:22] CODY ZIGLAR: You wear your emotions on your sleeve. What can you expect?

 

[00:04:25] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I respect that. I mean, I still watch Grey’s Anatomy just so I can cry.

 

[00:04:28] MATT APODACA: You got to get a couple of tears out every now and then.

 

[00:04:30] ASHLEY RAY: Dear Edward on Apple TV–the only reason that show exists is to make you cry. It’s about, like, this one child who survives a plane crash. And then the whole show goes into the lives of everyone else on the plane. So, there’s, like, a woman who lost her baby daddy, and she’s like, “Why does this kid have to be the kid who survives?” And it goes into all the tragic stories. And the kid loses his whole family. It’s so sad. I call fans of it “Grief Group” because you just literally watch and you’re like, “What sad story are they going to tell me about the person who was sitting in 14B?” It’s amazing. Zig, what are you watching?

 

[00:05:09] CODY ZIGLAR: Outside of Last of Us? I’ve been rewatching The Simpsons. I’m on Season Six. I mean, it’s the coldest, most boring take–it still mostly holds up. It’s my workout watch. So, like, whenever I’m, like, working out–and I work out at home because I don’t like going to a gym mostly–I’ll put an episode on. I usually get through two episodes. The show is still so fucking funny. Having worked on a sort of Simpsons adjacent show, I’m still so in awe that those people can get fucking so many jokes per page.

 

[00:05:41] ASHLEY RAY: So many jokes per page.

 

[00:05:42] CODY ZIGLAR: And it mostly lands. It’s crazy. I just watched one. It’s a Treehouse of Horror episode where Homer somehow builds a toaster that made him go back in time. He, like, steps on a frog or something–as one does. And he ends up going to a reality where Ned Flanders is a big brother type overlord. And he’s getting chased by these German shepherds and he pulls out a big thing of sausage links. He’s like, “I’ll eat these for energy!” And he eats them and runs off. It’s such a perfectly dumb joke that you should see it coming, but you don’t see it coming. I’m so in awe of how funny that show is. I’m going to keep watching it until I think it hits the wall. But I’m not sure. I think there’ll be a couple more seasons before.

 

[00:06:19] ASHLEY RAY: I think so. And I started rewatching some of it. I feel like every time I take some kind of, I don’t know, writing workshop or just start thinking about scripts, it’s one of those shows I return to because they get so many jokes in. And I don’t watch the current seasons yet–or I guess someday I’ll watch them–but I saw a review that came out for the most recent episode that was like, “It’s still good. They totally revitalized the character of Bart and did something absolutely different with him.” And I was like, “That really does give me something to look forward to.”

 

[00:06:50] MATT APODACA: Wow.

 

[00:06:51] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, yeah, I’m excited. It’s one of those things where, like… I’m not sure about you guys, but around college–when I stopped watching a lot of things because I didn’t have money to pay for cable and stuff–I went from, like, Season 15 or whatever of The Simpsons, and when I came back out the other side, it’s, like, Season 27. I was like, “There’s no way that I’m going to catch up on 22-episode season orders for, like, 30 seasons or however long I’ve missed them.”

 

[00:07:13] ASHLEY RAY: Impossible. Those are some good watches. I’m going to add to the list. Daisy Jones and The Six. I know the listeners will be happy to hear that I did watch it. I had a friend who came to town, and she was reading the book. And she only got through the first 30 pages. And she got here, and she was like, “Let’s watch the first three episodes. I want to see where it goes. Like, whatever, I’ll just switch to the show.” We start watching it–the first three episodes–she’s like, “Ashley, everything in these three episodes is in the first 30 pages of this book. This is the slowest moving show. Everything in these three episodes I read in the book. Nothing new is happening, and I only read 30 pages.” Daisy Jones hasn’t even met The Six by Episode Four yet. It moves so slowly, but it’s basically someone’s fanfic of Fleetwood Mac. And she wrote it as a book, and then they made a TV show. And I can’t stop watching it. It’s so silly.

 

[00:08:13] CODY ZIGLAR: What’s it on?

 

[00:08:14] ASHLEY RAY: It’s Prime Video. I’m sorry. Can we edit that to make me say, “It’s Amazon Prime Video”? They hate when you put the “Amazon” in there. They’re always like, “Just call it prime video.” I’m like, “I’m going to say Amazon Prime Video. That’s what it is. That’s what it is.” But they play made up songs and pretend to be Fleetwood Mac. I’ve fallen in love. I can’t stop. It’s basically an ABC-level drama that reminds me of Revenge, where it’s just so over the top. Or Nashville. Oh, I loved that show. It’s very much of that genre where you’re just like, “You know what? I’m in. These songs are made up. I want to see the mess of this band.” And also, it kind of has something to do with Fleetwood Mac. I’m in.

 

[00:09:01] CODY ZIGLAR: You saying that reminds me of another Amazon Prime Video series. I don’t know if it’s out yet at the time of this recording, but Swarm. I’ve watched the first four or five episodes of Swarm, which is also sort of music adjacent–not really Beyoncé, but Beyoncé’s sort of stand in. And for my money, it may be the best thing I’ve seen in the past couple of years. I’m sort of drip feeding it because I don’t want to watch it all at once because–one–it’s a very heavy show. It’s not Atlanta. It’s not a comedy.

 

[00:09:33] ASHLEY RAY: And also, I really want to experience it with the timeline. I think it’s one of those shows where it’s going to get a reaction, and I don’t want to get ahead of it. I know they showed some episodes at South by. And every trailer I’ve seen… I cannot wait for this show.

 

[00:09:50] CODY ZIGLAR: It’s great. I think you’re going to really, really enjoy it.

 

[00:09:52] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. And I just think the timeline is… It’s going to lose it, I think. I don’t know. You got to make sure you have Amazon Prime Video if you want to watch it.

 

[00:10:02] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

[00:10:03] ASHLEY RAY: That’s all on my watchlist really. Obviously, the Poker Face finale, which you mentioned. So good. I feel like at this point I don’t have to sell people on Poker Face. I had my mom come in and beg you to watch it. If you’re not watching Poker Face, there’s nothing else I can do for you.

 

[00:10:16] CODY ZIGLAR: I’ve heard so many people gas up Poker Face to the point where I’m like, “Yeah, I’m going to actually actively watch the show because–one–I personally am enjoying Rian Johnson in his detective whodunit era.” The fact that he has a whole series that’s just him and Natasha Lyonne doing a whodunit or a whodidit of the week. I’m all game for it.

 

[00:10:32] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, it’s so good. You can tell they’re just like, “Who do we want to bring in? Who would make this fun?” I’m so happy it got a Season Two. My mom said that she was disappointed in the finale when she thought that was the end of it. And then when I explained to her it was already renewed, she was like, “Oh, then it’s great.” So, anything else on your watchlist?

 

[00:10:52] CODY ZIGLAR: I have the most free time, but also so little free time that whenever I get a chance to watch anything, a lot of it has been outside of this narrative stuff. It’s been, like, whatever random reality trash show my girlfriend wants to throw on in the background. So, if there’s like a cooking show or a chef adjacent show on Netflix, we probably watched it. There was that How Stella Got Her Groove Back-based reality show.

 

[00:11:14] ASHLEY RAY: Oh, yeah. With Taye Diggs?

 

[00:11:16] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, that Taye Diggs was on. We watched five episodes of that.

 

[00:11:19] ASHLEY RAY: You’re the first person to join us who’s seen any of that show.

 

[00:11:24] CODY ZIGLAR: I came in talking so much shit. And then I was like, “Can we watch more episodes?” I drank the Kool-Aid so fast on that show that I was actively mad when she finished it without me. So, I got to say, like, I’m on board. I want there to be a Season Two, Three, and Four. I’m all in.

 

[00:11:39] ASHLEY RAY: Okay. I love that. I love that. Matt, anything else?

 

[00:11:42] MATT APODACA: I was just remembering that Zig and I both watched an anime called Chainsaw Man that has stopped airing. It’s going to come back, you know, who knows? I don’t know what the anime schedule is, but Chainsaw Man rips. It is so good. I haven’t seen a lot of anime, but that show… It’s on Hulu also. It’s typically on Crunchyroll, which is, like, the anime streaming service. But it’s on Hulu too. And it’s so good and so funny and dark. It’s a lot of fun, and I recommend it to anybody.

 

[00:12:21] CODY ZIGLAR: Great animation. It plays with the tropes of that type of show. So that type of genre is called Shōnen, which just literally means, like, “adolescent.” It’s for, like, 12-, 13-, and 14-year-old boys. And it plays with all of the tropes of that–turns it on the head. And it’s also so, like, macabrely funny. And the character’s motivation for what he wants to do is so juvenile. It’s so juvenile, but they know that it’s juvenile. It’s just such a fun twist on that show that everyone’s seen that’s also done some of the best animation I’ve seen in a show in a long, long time.

 

[00:12:56] ASHLEY RAY: It’s great that I have you both here because you can explain something to me. As TV Club knows, the only anime that I’ve ever watched is Attack on Titan. Obsessed with it. Loved it. Over COVID, just, like, binged it. Became obsessed. And then I opened my Hulu last week. They’re like, “Attack on Titan’s” back. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, it’s back.” And I watched an hour, and I’m like, “This is amazing. Yes, let’s go!” And then this week I go to my TV, and I’m like, “Where’s the new one? Where’s the new episode?” And there’s nothing. I don’t understand what’s happening.

 

[00:13:28] CODY ZIGLAR: Matt, you may be more tapped in. It is confusing. They’ve been doing their final season for three seasons. I think what they did was they took their final season and split it up into three parts for some bizarre reason. I don’t know why. What it does is, like, it adds an immense confusion because you’re like, “All right, this is the season finale.” And then it ends. And you’re like, “Well, that doesn’t seem like a conclusion because nothing wrapped up and there’s a lot of meat left on this narrative bone.” And then you do another season, you’re like, “All right.” This is what they keep doing. They just keep adding parts to the final season. Matt, you may know more. Is this the final final season, or is there another final after this one?

 

[00:14:07] MATT APODACA: So, Attack on Titan is one that I haven’t seen, but I am interested in watching. But I am also so unaware of what an anime production schedule is because sometimes I feel like they’re still drawing the episode the day before it comes out, it feels like.

 

[00:14:24] ASHLEY RAY: I read something where it was like, “Oh, there was a delay because of COVID and the animation teams.” And I was like, “Well, that makes sense. But why are you showing me an hour?” And then they said I had to wait until the fall? That’s wild.

 

[00:14:37] MATT APODACA: Because there’s a show that I really like that’s old that I was introduced to by my co-host Heather Anne Campbell called Neon Genesis Evangelion. And when that was airing, they straight up ran out of money. And so, some of the episodes are, like, pencil drawings. And people got so mad. They’re like, “What do you mean you ran out of money?” They’re like, “Yeah, we ran out of money.”

 

[00:15:02] ASHLEY RAY: At this point, I would be fine with pencil drawings just to finish Attack on Titan. Finish it.

 

[00:15:08] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah. Now you’re a real anime fan.

 

[00:15:13] ASHLEY RAY: Look, I just want to finish it. And I just got so hyped up. And then I had to read a Reddit to understand.

 

[00:15:20] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, that’s the pain of being an anime fan. You have to wait so long between seasons because sometimes it’ll be next year, and sometimes it’ll be three or four years between seasons because they have no money, and they have to draw everything by hand.

 

[00:15:32] ASHLEY RAY: It hit me so much because I just binged all of it because I had it all. And I was living like a king and then…Pulled out from under me. We’re going to take a quick break. When we’re back, we’re going to talk about the Oscars, and we’re going to dig into that Last of Us finale. So, this past weekend, it was the biggest night in Hollywood–the biggest night in movies–the Oscars, hosted by Jimmy Kimmel on ABC. What did you think? Did you watch? Did you go to a party?

 

[00:16:08] MATT APODACA: I went to a party of sorts. I went to my girlfriend’s parents’ house. And it was a lot of fun watching it there. I don’t know if you’ve, like, watched a lot of TV with the parents of your significant other. It’s kind of a different experience because everybody has something to say every second that it’s on. So, you know, you’re trying to hear speeches and stuff, and they’ll be like, “Well, I haven’t even seen this movie.” And I’m like, “Okay, well, like, it doesn’t…”

 

[00:16:40] ASHLEY RAY: “Why are we watching this? What is she wearing?” Or my mom will just be like, “Who is that?”

 

[00:16:44] MATT APODACA: I don’t know who it was, but there was this woman in the audience who had this, like, big, puffy cloud.

 

[00:16:51] ASHLEY RAY: Tems.

 

[00:16:53] MATT APODACA: And they just kept being like, “Imagine sitting behind her.”

 

[00:16:57] ASHLEY RAY: That was the big joke of the night–what the people behind Tems are seeing. And it’s like a shower curtain. People calling her rude. And I was like, “That’s exactly what I would do.”

 

[00:17:11] MATT APODACA: Absolutely.

 

[00:17:13] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, it’s the Oscars. You’re there. You’re nominated.

 

[00:17:17] MATT APODACA: It’s at least a story. You could be like, “Hey, I’m behind Tems.”

 

[00:17:21] ASHLEY RAY: I would literally have selfies that are just like, “Really, this is me.” Take advantage of that moment. They should have been taking advantage.

 

[00:17:28] MATT APODACA: I thought it was cool.

 

[00:17:29] ASHLEY RAY: You know Twitter is dead because there wasn’t an immediate gimmick account that was, like, tweeting from Tems. If Twitter was still relevant, that would have happened in moments.

 

[00:17:39] MATT APODACA: Yeah, exactly. Somebody would have run quickly to a Michaels or something and bought, like, a white veil. “I can’t see anything!”

 

[00:17:51] CODY ZIGLAR: You would have seen a skit by the time that Best Picture was announced.

 

[00:17:52] MATT APODACA: Yeah. Yeah.

 

[00:17:54] ASHLEY RAY: It would have been up and everywhere on Twitter. That’s one sign it’s gone.

 

[00:17:57] MATT APODACA: I could predict we’ll be seeing something about it on Saturday Night Live this weekend.

 

[00:18:02] ASHLEY RAY: Oh yeah. A show that I did watch the latest episode of. It was Jenny Ortega. And Fred Armisen came around and did some guest stuff. That’s really all I remember.

 

[00:18:15] MATT APODACA: I saw one clip of it where she told Fred Armisen that she started watching SNL because of him and that her favorite sketch was the Californians. And I felt 100 years old.

 

[00:18:25] ASHLEY RAY: Yes. I do remember her saying that in the monologue. And I was like, “Oh, I am a thousand years old. The Californians? What? That’s late-stage.”

 

[00:18:39] MATT APODACA: Not a lot of stuff hits me like that, but occasionally I’ll just, like, catch a stray like that for no reason and just be like, “Wait a second.”

 

[00:18:47] ASHLEY RAY: “Oh, that was your classic.”

 

[00:18:50] MATT APODACA: But then you remember, like, “Oh, she’s 20 years old.”

 

[00:18:54] CODY ZIGLAR: “She’s a child.”

 

[00:18:56] ASHLEY RAY: True child. That makes sense. She did a great job hosting. She was so fun–had a lot of energy. Molly Kearney killed it at Weekend Update playing that Lieutenant Governor who’s been leaving all the thirst traps. Loved that Weekend Update. See, the Oscars are so boring, I’m talking about Saturday Night Live.

 

[00:19:18] MATT APODACA: Well, that was sort of the thing, right? I watched the whole broadcast, and I was sort of like, “This was a very safe…” Not that it has to be shocking or outrageous or anything, but it was so safe that it was boring. It was, like, a very just dull… And they were all aware of it.

 

[00:19:36] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. And they wanted to have all the jokes about the slap. So many references, so many jokes. But you’re telling me Tár is nominated, and you’re not going to have some joke where someone runs on stage and just, like, takes Jimmy out? There could’ve been a moment. Like, come on.

 

[00:19:51] MATT APODACA: Because that’s at least a fake out. “Oh, you thought we were referencing the slap? This is actually from Tár.”

 

[00:19:58] ASHLEY RAY: “The move none of you saw.”

 

[00:20:01] MATT APODACA: I loved Tár. Tár was maybe one of my favorite movies of the ones nominated.

 

[00:20:07] ASHLEY RAY: I watched it afterwards because so many people were like, “It was amazing.” And I will say, it was probably one of my favorite comedies.

 

[00:20:13] MATT APODACA: It’s super funny. It’s really, really funny. A sneakily funny movie. The ending of it is, I think, quite rude. But it’s very funny.

 

[00:20:24] ASHLEY RAY: It’s like, “Imagine hell. Playing Comic Cons for the rest of your life.”

 

[00:20:28] MATT APODACA: Yeah, imagine. Could you even conceive the idea–how horrible it would be to play music composed for a video game? How horrible.” But I thought one of the funniest jokes of the night was from Hugh Grant. He had a funny joke. And, you know, if the funniest joke of the night is from Hugh Grant, the show’s in trouble.

 

[00:20:53] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah.

 

[00:20:54] MATT APODACA: And, you know, not to say that all the writing was bad because I do know some people that wrote for it. But it wasn’t their fault. You know, it’s hard.

 

[00:21:04] ASHLEY RAY: The monologue, I thought, was strong. It had a strong opening monologue. Jimmy was doing great with material he was given. It’s like they told them, “Be safe. Make the references. But we want this to be a boring, zero incident Oscars.” I was thinking they could at least go the Jerrod Carmichael route when he did the Golden Globes. He said some sarcastic things. And I was like, “No. They did not want Jimmy doing that.”

 

[00:21:28] MATT APODACA: Yeah.

 

[00:21:29] ASHLEY RAY: And I think with those boundaries in place, the writers did a great job and gave him strong material. But it’s still, like…

 

[00:21:37] CODY ZIGLAR: You can only make it so interesting because award shows, by their very nature, are so, so fucking boring. I know this is a crazy thing to say, so I’m prefacing this. But I remember my girlfriend–she loves this stuff–and she was like, “Do you want to watch this?” I was like, “Truthfully, I don’t even go to award shows unless I’m nominated now. And they are still the most boring thing on the planet.”

 

[00:21:57] ASHLEY RAY: Ohhh!

 

[00:21:57] MATT APODACA: Excuse me!

 

[00:21:59] CODY ZIGLAR: I know. I know it’s a crazy thing to say, so I’m prefacing it. But truly as boring as it is watching it from TV, being at a table for three and a half hours… You can’t hear anything. You can’t leave. You can’t even leave to take a piss. For me anyway, I’m playing, like, on my Gameboy. I truly can’t do it. What I love about this particular Oscars is that, one, by the time that I had finished watching The Last of Us when it aired at 6:00 our time, some of the fun stuff had already started. It’s like, “Alright, I’m going to see who won this award. I’m seeing a beautiful speech from Ke about being, like, a refugee and all that stuff.”

 

[00:22:33] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, that was great.

 

[00:22:35] CODY ZIGLAR: So, like, by the time that that’s done, someone else has won. So, I’ve sort of cheated the system. I create buffers where I can, like, skip through the boring preamble stuff.

 

[00:22:43] ASHLEY RAY: You didn’t have to get mad about Jamie Lee Curtis with the rest of us, you know?

 

[00:22:47] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, I’m playing catch up. Like, “What does she do? What does she say? Oh, she won. Well, all right.”

 

[00:22:53] ASHLEY RAY: I mean, how do we feel? People are saying she stole it from Angela. Angela was snubbed. I will be honest; I did not see Wakanda Forever. I did see Everything Everywhere All at Once. And I wanted Stephanie to win.

 

[00:23:05] CODY ZIGLAR: For my money, my opinion is that, like, of the two people in Everything Everywhere All at Once, Stephanie did way more and had much more to do. Pound for pound, she’s just in more scenes than her. And she’s doing a lot in those scenes. But even if you just take Stephanie out, and it was just, like, Jamie Lee Curtis and Angela Bassett… Angela Bassett had some scenes in that movie. I think, as someone who has worked for Marvel, we sort of forget that they used to be, like, movies. They used to have, like, actual, practical sets and actors that would, like, perform and act. Like, if you watch that first Thor–watching Tom Hiddleston and Anthony Hopkins–watching their scenes, you’re like, “Oh, these are two Shakespearean-trained, classically trained actors. And, like, they’re giving very silly material, but they’re making it work. And like, watching Angela’s scenes… Even, like, the scene that everyone shares–Angela having the moment between her and Danai Gurira about, like, she lost her daughter–that’s a great scene. And she brings that intensity for everything. So, like, I would have given Angela that, but it’s crazy to me that Stephanie did not get the award for Everything Everywhere All at Once because she was absolutely fantastic.

 

[00:24:11] ASHLEY RAY: Absolutely fantastic.

 

[00:24:13] CODY ZIGLAR: And it was her first major feature. And, like, no notes for her performance.

 

[00:24:14] MATT APODACA: I think it was probably just, like, you know, a legacy award, where they were sort of like, “Okay, well, we couldn’t give it to her for any other movie she’s in.”

 

[00:24:26] ASHLEY RAY: “A Fish Named Wanda.”

 

[00:24:28] MATT APODACA: “She’s going to be back to hawking Activia soon. Let’s just give it to her.”

 

[00:24:34] ASHLEY RAY: “We’ll just give it to her. Angela’s going to be in other things. Stephanie’s going to be in other things.”

 

[00:24:38] MATT APODACA: Yeah, yeah. That was my calculation. I was like, “Stephanie’s going to have another shot at this for sure because she’s so talented. And Angela is Angela. She’s going to get another nomination.” Even though it’s happened before–there’s precedent for it–I would imagine that the Academy probably was like, “We’re not going to give an award to a superhero movie performance.”

 

[00:25:04] ASHLEY RAY: Yes, I think that was part of it. Yeah.

 

[00:25:05] CODY ZIGLAR: 100%. Yeah.

 

[00:25:06] ASHLEY RAY: This was the first Marvel nomination, right?

 

[00:25:09] MATT APODACA: I think so, yes.

 

[00:25:11] CODY ZIGLAR: If anyone ever got nominated for Marvel stuff, it’s usually Black Panther adjacent. They’re the only ones that get nominated for stuff.

 

[00:25:17] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, like costumes and technical stuff.

 

[00:25:17] CODY ZIGLAR: The only ones that win stuff. Yeah.

 

[00:25:19] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. It’s how Ruth Carter became the first Black woman to ever have two Oscars. The first one to just have two. That’s insane to me. When you look at, like–I don’t know… How many does Steven Spielberg have?

 

[00:25:38] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, truly. Yeah.

 

[00:25:39] ASHLEY RAY: And she’s, like, yeah, the first woman of color to just have two of them. Cool.

 

[00:25:44] CODY ZIGLAR: Have either of you been to the Academy Museum?

 

[00:25:47] ASHLEY RAY: Yes, I have, actually. It’s fun!

 

[00:25:48] MATT APODACA: I have not.

 

[00:25:49] CODY ZIGLAR: It’s great. It’s fun. There’s a whole section of a floor that’s dedicated to just, like, Oscars–people winning Oscars. And she has a very great section there. It’s just, like, a video of the speech. And they have information about it.

 

[00:26:03] ASHLEY RAY: Oh, cool.

 

[00:26:04] CODY ZIGLAR: It is so interesting walking through that because Oscars have been around a long time. But also, when you start hitting people of color getting awards, it’s very deep into, like, the actual…

 

[00:26:13] ASHLEY RAY: It’s very deep in.

 

[00:26:15] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, like, “2022. Halle Berry. Okay, let’s start.” I’m walking through the timeline. “Okay. This is not a recent development for us.”

 

[00:26:23] ASHLEY RAY: It’s very “White. White. A whole room dedicated to Spike Lee. White.”

 

[00:26:29] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah. “They were Cuban, but they had to pretend to be white to get an award.”

 

[00:26:35] ASHLEY RAY: “She was Asian, but…” It’s like, “Okay. Okay, we’re getting there.” There was also a long commercial for the museum during the awards ceremony, which makes sense–that is one of their products. And I would recommend going. They have different traveling exhibits that are really cool. But then there was also just flat out an ad for the live action Little Mermaid, which did get a lot of controversy. Yeah, people being like, “So Disney can just buy ad time in the Oscars now? That’s what we’re doing? And some people who were like, “Turn a light on. I can’t see anything in this dark trailer.”

 

[00:27:12] MATT APODACA: I was thinking the same thing because I was also like, “Okay, how many jokes are we going to do about the show being too long, and then just add in a commercial in the middle of it for a movie?”

 

[00:27:23] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. With a whole intro. It wasn’t just like, “Cut to it.” And you’re like, “Oh, this is their commercial block. They bought out a full block.” No, they were on stage. “Here’s our movie, Disney.”

 

[00:27:36] MATT APODACA: Yes. That was the one redeeming part of it to me because I’ve just sort of not participated in the conversation about it.

 

[00:27:45] ASHLEY RAY: The Little Mermaid discourse? Matt, you, a grown man, are not interested

 

[00:27:48] CODY ZIGLAR: You’re not deep into it?

 

[00:27:49] MATT APODACA: I’ve decided that as a grown man, it’s probably not my place. And I don’t know if that’s a new take or whatever. Maybe I’m the first. It seems like I’m the first person to do this. I hadn’t seen a lot of Halle Bailey. And I was sort of like, “Oh, it makes 100% sense why she was cast as Ariel. She’s an angel.”

 

[00:28:11] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, she looks like a little Ariel princess doll.

 

[00:28:15] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah. And she can sing her ass off.

 

[00:28:18] MATT APODACA: It made me more interested in seeing it. I was like, “Oh. I mean, I don’t know. Maybe I’ll go. And then I’ll be mad.”

 

[00:28:24] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah.

 

[00:28:24] CODY ZIGLAR: I’m also like Matt–one of the two rare adult men who have not been into the discourse of The Little Mermaid. This is the first, like, any motion I’ve seen of it. I’ve only seen, like, stills and people dragging it online. I saw, like… What’s her name? It’s Ursula. She seemed like she’s having a lot of fun, which I think you should be having a lot of fun for these movies. I probably still won’t see it because I just don’t like those movies that much these days because I’m not a kid anymore.

 

[00:28:49] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, I’m not a fan of those kinds of movies. I didn’t see live action Peter Pan.

 

[00:28:55] CODY ZIGLAR: Or, like, The Lion King.

 

[00:28:56] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. I was never a big fan of those movies. Really, I think I just, like, was right at that age when The Lion King hit, but…

 

[00:29:01] CODY ZIGLAR: I was never a huge Disney animation fan as a kid because our parents would buy these things and we watch them. I don’t know about you, but it seems like you also haven’t revisited them now that you’ve gotten older. Either of you, right?

 

[00:29:12] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, no.

 

[00:29:14] MATT APODACA: No. I am drinking out of a Chip ‘n Dale mug that I just got. But that’s just, like… Those are my guys.

 

[00:29:23] ASHLEY RAY: I guess I liked Aladdin, but I think they did a live action version. I never watched it.

 

[00:29:28] MATT APODACA: Featuring the slapper himself. Will Smith.

 

[00:29:30] ASHLEY RAY: Oh my God.

 

[00:29:34] CODY ZIGLAR: Only wish I had? Wish he would.

 

[00:29:39] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. I’m not into those. A lot of people were like, “This tarnishes the reputation of the Oscars, having such a blatant ad in the middle of the show.” The whole thing is an ad.

 

[00:29:51] CODY ZIGLAR: That’s the thing that tarnishes the Oscars? Like, yeah, the whole thing is an ad. And also, the least toxic you’ll ever see this industry is on that stage. This is the most wholesome side of the entertainment industry. 95% of people in that room are psychopaths. What are you talking about?

 

[00:30:05] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah exactly.

 

[00:30:06] CODY ZIGLAR: Be for real. What are you talking about?

 

[00:30:09] ASHLEY RAY: That was one of the probably nicest things and the few inappropriate things that could happen at that show.

 

[00:30:15] MATT APODACA: Yeah.

 

[00:30:16] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah.

 

[00:30:34] ASHLEY RAY: I’m trying to think about the other big moments after that. There was the Angela snub, Little Mermaid, and then it just seemed like the night kind of petered out quietly with All Quiet on the Western Front washing all of the awards no one cared about and Everything Everywhere All at Once taking all the awards people did care about.

 

[00:30:53] MATT APODACA: Yeah. The one thing that I think they got… I mean, I don’t know if they got it all right because, you know, there’s controversy over Jamie’s win. But giving Ke Quan the hardware, giving Michelle Yeoh the hardware–that’s correct. That’s about time. It’s such a good story for this year in movies. And, you know, giving Brendan the award–people have a lot of thoughts about the movie–I haven’t seen it.

 

[00:31:21] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, I haven’t seen it.

 

[00:31:22] MATT APODACA: You know, I think it’s great that he’s recognized as an actor only because I just know that he had many years where he was, like, blacklisted for speaking out against his own sexual assault. So, I think that’s such a redemptive story and he’ll have more chances to maybe do a less controversial role or something else.

 

[00:31:48] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, I think the general vibe was: “We’re all so happy that Brendan is back in the game. We should overlook this movie, but… He’s back.”

 

[00:31:57] MATT APODACA: “We’ll just say this was for The Mummy.”

 

[00:32:02] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah. “This is for those Mummy movies.”

 

[00:32:04] ASHLEY RAY: For me? Probably George of the Jungle.

 

[00:32:07] MATT APODACA:  I’ll give it to him for Encino Man. You know, they were making Encino Man jokes last night. That’s a funny movie. What are you doing?

 

[00:32:14] ASHLEY RAY: I saw Pauly Shore do a pretty good set at the Comedy Store last month, so he’s doing well.

 

[00:32:18] MATT APODACA: Wow. Okay. I’m glad everybody’s doing well.

 

[00:32:21] ASHLEY RAY: Everybody’s doing well.

 

[00:32:23] MATT APODACA: Sean Astin’s doing great. Everybody’s doing fantastic.

 

[00:32:25] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah.

 

[00:32:27] CODY ZIGLAR: I will say this is the first time I think I’ve ever watched an Oscar or participated in the Oscars where I feel like to me the most interesting and truly best picture won because I think the joke for the longest time is, like, if you want to see what the best movie is, you go to the Oscars and see what best picture was and see what they’re up against. And, like, usually those are the more interesting films. But for me, this year, Everything Everywhere All at Once–that was the most interesting film I’ve seen in a very, very, very long time. They do a bunch of weird shit in that movie. They threw a lot at the wall.

 

[00:32:58] ASHLEY RAY: They took risks.

 

[00:32:59] CODY ZIGLAR: They took risks. Also, it’s so rare for a comedy to win. And yes, it’s more drama, but for, like, you know, 45, 55% of that movie is funny. And it’s, like, funny where the jokes actually paid off. Like, their arcs–the raccoon stuff has an arc, and it pays off.

 

[00:33:16] ASHLEY RAY: It all pays off.

 

[00:33:17] CODY ZIGLAR: The hotdog fingers. That was such a dumb throwaway bit that pays off. It’s such a well-constructed film and piece of art that I was truly happy that it swept everything that I think it should have swept. Even though I wish that Stephanie Hsu would have gotten support, I get the politics of it. I get that the Academy is mostly… I think the medium age is 65.

 

[00:33:40] MATT APODACA: Very cool.

 

[00:33:41] ASHLEY RAY:  It says a lot. About Jamie’s win that I keep going, “I just really wish Everything Everywhere All at Once had swept it.” And then I remember Jamie was in that movie. And I’m like, “Oh, it still was a win for the movie.” And I’m just like, “Oh, right, right. That’s what she was in.” I wanted Stephanie to get it.

 

[00:33:57] MATT APODACA: That’s really tough when they put two people from the same movie in the category.

 

[00:34:03] ASHLEY RAY: Very strange.

 

[00:34:05] MATT APODACA: I don’t love that. But, you know, it’s a broken, bad system.

 

[00:34:08] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. If they were better and they were like television, then I feel like Jamie could have been a guest actor in a series. Stephanie would have got Supporting. But this is the movies. It doesn’t make sense here.

 

[00:34:20] MATT APODACA: No, no, no.

 

[00:34:21] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. And so that was the Oscars’ biggest night. Eh. Yeah. You know.

 

[00:34:27] MATT APODACA: I can’t wait for the next one.

 

[00:34:28] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. I can’t wait.

 

[00:34:30] MATT APODACA: Next one’s going to be a banger.

 

[00:34:35] ASHLEY RAY:  I’m waiting for… What will it be? ’32, when Will Smith’s allowed to come back.

 

[00:34:41] MATT APODACA: Yeah. Yeah. That’ll be good. And, you know, he’ll come back, and he’ll be like, “Just kidding.” Like, you know, he’ll raise the hand a little bit.

 

[00:34:47] ASHLEY RAY: “I got you.”

 

[00:34:48] MATT APODACA: Yeah.

 

[00:34:49] CODY ZIGLAR: It is still so funny that he slapped that man in front of a live audience and then he came back up and won an award. Like, that to me is Black excellence.

 

[00:34:59] ASHLEY RAY: And then just went to every afterparty and danced like he did not just do that. That was the Jimmy Kimmel joke I didn’t like because he tried to be like, “Wow, last year you were so nice to the assailant.” And I’m like, “Okay…”

 

[00:35:13] MATT APODACA: Yeah. “I didn’t realize we were trying him today.”

 

[00:35:19] CODY ZIGLAR: I remember Judd Apatow being like, “He could have killed him.”

 

[00:35:23] ASHLEY RAY: “He could have killed him!”

 

[00:35:28] MATT APODACA: “Fucking dork.”

 

[00:35:30] ASHLEY RAY: Come on. That was… Everybody had to calm down with that. But do either of you have anything else to say about the Oscars?

 

[00:35:38] MATT APODACA: I think ten movies is too many. I think we asked for something that we thought we wanted, and it’s too many. While I did enjoy Avatar: The Way of Water and Top Gun: Maverick, you know, I think Top Gun is a different thing. Like, that’s almost like the People’s Choice movie.

 

[00:36:00] ASHLEY RAY: Like, why are we here trying to pretend with Top Gun?

 

[00:36:02] MATT APODACA: Yeah. And that said, when I saw that in the movie theaters, there were several times where I said out loud, “This is the best movie I’ve ever seen.” So, I don’t know.

 

[00:36:12] CODY ZIGLAR: I did think that. I did have that thought. I was watching this movie; I was with my friend Kara. And as we left, we’re like, “That movie was so good you forget that that Tom Cruise is a fucking weirdo and that Miles Teller is, like, one of the biggest assholes in the town.”

 

[00:36:25] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, and I had no idea Lady Gaga made a song for it. And then I feel like in order to make it serious, last night, she was like, “Take off the costumes. Call me Stefani. Take off the makeup. I have to make this movie seem serious.”

 

[00:36:42] MATT APODACA: Either I saw a TikTok about it or I read something about this–she was dressed that way because if you’re a female fighter jet pilot or I think the person said “sailor” in this TikTok Dave if I remember correctly, you can have a single braid. And I think the outfit was something to do with that as well. But I think she was paying homage. But the funny thing about the song is I had heard that it was originally going to be Imagine Dragons doing a song for Top Gun: Maverick.

 

[00:37:13] CODY ZIGLAR: That sounds about right.

 

[00:37:13] MATT APODACA: And Tom Cruise said no. Tom Cruise shot it down.

 

[00:37:18] ASHLEY RAY: I feel like he’d be a big Imagine Dragons fan.

 

[00:37:21] MATT APODACA: I know it. He was like, “Absolutely not.”

 

[00:37:24] ASHLEY RAY: And he’s like, “No, get me Lady Gaga.” Wow.

 

[00:37:28] CODY ZIGLAR: “They already did Arcane.”

 

[00:37:30] ASHLEY RAY: I love that she was doing something sweet and I’m just, like, making jokes about it. But that also happened with John Travolta. Like, he came out, and I was like, “John Travolta looks stoned as hell. He’s going to say something funny.” And then he was like, “And the In Memoriam…” And I was like, “Ohhhh… Okay.’

 

[00:37:44] MATT APODACA: I was sincerely hoping that it was going to be Idina Menzel singing the song, just so he could have the redemption. But, you know, it was Mr. Leonard. He was great.

 

[00:37:59] ASHLEY RAY: He was good. But as the night came to a close, I turned off my Hulu app, I opened HBO, and I got ready for some real art–to appreciate real creativity, okay? And I turned on The Last of Us finale, which to me–again, someone who has not played the video games, knows nothing about it–I thought it was perfect. What did you two have to say? What do you have to say?

 

[00:38:23] CODY ZIGLAR: Matt, let me know if you have a similar thought because I can’t remember if we talked about it or not. It’s the best adaptation of a video game, I think. I mean, just take the “video game” out of it. Best adaptation for, like, a source material I’ve seen in a long time. Definitely the best one for a video game. It’s very faithful. It’s, like, the definition of what an adaptation should be. And I think I sort of shot myself in the foot because I originally was replaying the game because I forgot what’s happened. It’s been, like, ten years since I’ve played. I was just sort of playing catch up. And I told myself I would watch an episode and then replay that section. But instead, because I’m currently not in a show right now, I just played through all of it. So, like, I think I sort of fucked myself over because I knew exactly what was going to happen. So, like, that surprise was gone because–like I said–it had been ten years before I previously played the game. So, you know, I’m watching this series and like, “Wait, this feels so familiar. Oh, because you just played this literally two weeks ago. You know everything that they’re going to say.” So, like, I sort of took the wind out of my sails. But it’s a fantastic series. I’ve seen some of the complaints online being like, “There’s not enough infected. There’s not enough zombies or whatever.” I’m like, “Well, I can definitely see that.” But also, I’m like, “They’re there when you need them, when, like, you need to have a scene punctuated.” It’s not about fighting the zombies. It’s about these two characters and more characters as the series goes along. But I truly have no notes. Like, I have no thoughts watching it where I’m like, “I would improve this. I think this was a little sweaty.” It all works. All the stuff that they add is all so much better than it was in the game. That whole episode three–one of the best episodes of TV I’ve seen in a long time.

 

[00:40:03] MATT APODACA: Yeah. That should have been Best Picture honestly.

 

[00:40:05] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, exactly. In the video game, is Ellie so damn loud? She’s so loud. I’m like, “If these zombie mushrooms can hear everything, why are you screaming, girl?” She’s constantly screaming in the show.

 

[00:40:24] CODY ZIGLAR: She’s definitely a little stinker. She’s a little stinker in the game.

 

[00:40:26] MATT APODACA: Yea., I replayed it last year before the series came out because it was rereleased on PlayStation 5. And it’s one of my favorite games of all time. So, I sort of knew that they had to get it right. But they sort of had, like, no choice but to do it as faithfully as possible because even fans of the game hate the game. There’s a lot of controversial stuff in the second one that is not controversial if you just think about what a good story is. But, you know, everybody online thinks that they know how stories work.

 

[00:41:05] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. I saw some fans of the game online being like, “I hate the way they do this in the game. And I was hoping the TV show would figure out something better.” And I was like, “Isn’t the job of the show to do what they do in the game, not solve it differently?

 

[00:41:21] MATT APODACA: There are two different types of experiences, right? A TV show is a passive experience. You’re just watching that, you’re sitting there, and you’re supposed to be enjoying it. Whereas a video game is an active experience, where it makes more sense to have more action.

 

[00:41:38] CODY ZIGLAR: It actually doesn’t stop.

 

[00:41:39] MATT APODACA: Yes, exactly.

 

[00:41:41] CODY ZIGLAR: You’re constantly moving forward towards whatever the goal is. You’re getting the golden ray gun, or you’re going wherever. But, like, you know, episodic television has to end at some point. Like, you have to stop. And either you wait a week, or maybe you hit play next–whatever the thing is. But like, you can’t have a one shot take for, you know, 10 hours of TV. That’s just not how television works.

 

[00:42:01] ASHLEY RAY: Maybe someone should try it.

 

[00:42:03] CODY ZIGLAR: Season Two.

 

[00:42:05] ASHLEY RAY: Just keep it going.

 

[00:42:06] MATT APODACA: Yeah. The performances in this show are so astounding. And I know that everybody’s, you know, thirsty for Pedro–and they’re correct.

 

[00:42:16] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. Come on.

 

[00:42:19] MATT APODACA: It’s funny because, like, my girlfriend–hadn’t seen me play the game really at all, doesn’t watch me play video games–is immediately after the show is over: “I want to play this. I want to, like, experience the game version of it.” My mom is the same way. Everybody is like, “I want to hurt how you hurt.”

 

[00:42:40] ASHLEY RAY: The only video game I play is The Sims. And after watching the show, I’m really like, “I want to see what it feels like to play the Season Two of this. It sounds like it’s so much more about character arcs and relationship dynamics. How does that work as a video game? I want to experience.” And we don’t do spoilers here, but I know of Abby coming because I read the Wikipedia synopsis. And so that whole dynamic–how does that feel in a video game?

 

[00:43:12] MATT APODACA: It’s something because a lot of people, I think, write off video games as an art form in general.

 

[00:43:19] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, like Lydia Tár.

 

[00:43:24] MATT APODACA: Lydia Tár does not like video games–thinks it’s beneath her.

 

[00:43:28] CODY ZIGLAR: Ebert, famously.

 

[00:43:30] MATT APODACA: Roger Ebert was a famous enemy of video games but a big supporter of anime. Ebert was a weeb.

 

[00:43:40] CODY ZIGLAR: Loved Akira. Loved Ghost in the Shell. Who would’ve thought?

 

[00:43:42] ASHLEY RAY: I bet he would have loved Attack on Titan.

 

[00:43:48] MATT APODACA: He probably would have. But a lot of people are, you know, “video games can never be art.” There are a lot of video games–not just The Last of Us–that have equal or even better storytelling in it. It’s just a matter of time that those get adapted as well. And, you know, that’s sort of the trap of adapting these things now. You see it happen with other types of things, too. Like, everybody wanted to make The Lego Movie after The Lego Movie came out and, like, took the wrong lessons from it. So, I can see new video games being adapted in a similar way to The Last of Us and not learning the lessons of how to do it correctly. They could mess it up in Season Two. They could get too big for their britches and mess it up in Season Two, which I am anxious about because the discourse while playing that game was awful. Everyone’s looking forward to Season Two of the show. I’m not, for that reason.

 

[00:44:43] ASHLEY RAY: It seems like it’s just going to break Twitter. And already, the discourse coming from last night is wild with people being like, “He shouldn’t make that choice. Put humanity first.” And it’s like, “Okay… Eh…”

 

[00:44:58] CODY ZIGLAR: I will say one of the more unique offerings of playing a narrative where you are not passive, as Matt is saying, is that like you do find yourselves–particularly in the second game and season–like, “I don’t want to do this. Why am I being forced to do this?” You start seeing the ramifications of your actions. I think a really good thing they do for the second game is really honing in on that. Like, what is the thesis of this? If the idea of righteous vengeance is a real thing, you don’t think so. It’s not really for us to say. But, like, if that’s the thing that you believe in, maybe you should see how this sort of plays out and affects people. And when you’re playing that first game, games–particularly these types of AAA games–take so long to beat. It took, like, 15 hours to beat this first game, 30 hours to beat the second one. So, like, you’re with Ellie and Joel for 15 hours–10 hours on a TV show, but 15 hours. Another thing that games do now is that, like, if you have downtime, they’ll just have characters chitchat on the side. So, like, a lot of that pun stuff that goes on throughout the first season–just a lot of downtime is watching Ellie warm up to Joel. And I just replayed it, like I said. There’s this bit where if you stand around for like 30 seconds and don’t move, she’ll attempt to whistle. And Joel’s like, “What the hell are you trying to do?” She’s like, “I’m trying to whistle.” And then five hours later, if you stand around again, she’ll start whistling. And she’s like, “I got it.” And Joel’s like, “That’s pretty good.” So, like, it’s these small moments that you see building up as you’re, like, playing this interactive narrative that can be lost in the TV show but wasn’t in a unique way that the show sort of still managed to capture. I think, for you–anyone interested in playing a narrative video game–I would recommend trying these games out. Literally, just put it on the easiest dating. There’s a saying that’s just called “Storytelling Mode” where the enemies are super easy. Like, you can just walk from point A to point B.

 

[00:46:51] ASHLEY RAY: Like, Baby Mode?

 

[00:46:54] MATT APODACA: Yeah, it’s Baby Mode.

 

[00:46:56] CODY ZIGLAR: You get, like, a little pacifier. You say, “Goo goo gaga.”

 

[00:46:58] ASHLEY RAY: “Not too scary!”

 

[00:47:02] CODY ZIGLAR: But there’s some really fun stuff. There’s this metanarrative where because you’re being interactive in it and you’re forcing the gameplay, there’s something that’s lost when you become a passive viewer. And that’s a really unique experience, I think, to video games that you may really appreciate, being someone who enjoys the art form of criticism and film and television and stuff. I think it’s a really interesting creative landscape that you can dive into if you desire.

 

[00:47:31] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah, so what are some other video games–narrative games–that you would like to see turned into shows?

 

[00:47:37] MATT APODACA: I mean, I have an answer–top of my head. They are making one. But the God of War games for PlayStation are being adapted for Amazon Prime.

 

[00:47:48] CODY ZIGLAR: Video.

 

[00:47:49] MATT APODACA: Amazon Prime Video. Excuse me. Those are really great. Those tell the story of a broken man. They’re all broken men–all these people–which is a bummer. He has killed gods, and it’s set in the world of Norse mythology. And that’s a wonderful one. But there’s this other game that’s a detective story that I really, really love–this game called Disco Elysium. And you play as an amnesiac detective, trying to figure out who he is, what he’s doing there, why he’s there, and also how to solve this murder. It’s so funny and so, like, sad and beautiful. It’s one of my favorite games I’ve ever played, and it’s such a different– It’s not really an action game. It’s sort of more of a point and click sort of mystery. And so, you’re around this fake town. There’s, like, these fake politics in it. And you have to sort of navigate through this town and not get everybody mad at you and you end up, you know, fucking up. You can make different choices. You could play it a bunch of different ways.

 

[00:49:00] ASHLEY RAY: Wow. This sounds like Memento but harder.

 

[00:49:03] MATT APODACA: It has Memento vibes like that.

 

[00:49:05] ASHLEY RAY: Another win for things that aren’t movies.

 

[00:49:07] MATT APODACA: Yes. Yes! You can play it, complete it, play it again, and do something completely different and get a different result. It’s wonderful. I don’t know how they would adapt it, but it’s one of my favorites. It’s a great story.

 

[00:49:23] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah. For me, it’s a game called Hades. There’s a series of games–a genre of game called “Roguelike.” And the very idea of it is that once you beat the game–beat the level–everything resets, and you start over again. Maybe some of your knowledge carries over or whatever. But the series is based around Greek mythology. So, like, you’re one of the children of Hades. And your goal is very simply: “Get to the top to meet your human mother.” And because you were born in the netherworld, you can’t exist for very long up topside. So even if you beat the game, you die, and you restart over again. It’s all about restarting in the cycle–the idea of recyclicality. You also gain more information every time you beat the game. So, you learn a little bit more about, like, your half-God siblings. And you learn a bit more about your mother and your father. And eventually you convince your mother to come back and live with your father. For me, I see the engine of how that works–not only for an episodic thing but also a seasonal thing. Like, “All right. End of the season, you meet your mom, then you die. In the second season, you’re getting up there again.”

 

[00:50:31] ASHLEY RAY: I can totally see that. Yeah, as a classics nerd, I’m loving this. Please. Come on. Give me a little Hades-Persephone. Let’s go.

 

[00:50:42] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, exactly. It’s fantastic. All the gods have great personalities. It’s just a fun, well-made, little, independent game from an independent studio.

 

[00:50:50] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. I don’t know if anyone at Amazon Prime Video is listening, but it sounds like this would be a great show to go with Good Omens.

 

[00:51:11] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

 

[00:51:13] MATT APODACA: Jeff Bezos, I know you’re listening.

 

[00:51:15] ASHLEY RAY: You’re out there, Jeff. You’re hearing me. Turn this into a show.

 

[00:51:17] CODY ZIGLAR: Jeffy Boy.

 

[00:51:19] ASHLEY RAY: You turn this into a show, put it right there with Good Omens. I’m loving this.

 

[00:51:23] MATT APODACA: Give your employees a bathroom, greenlight this show.

 

[00:51:26] ASHLEY RAY: Then make the show. Bathroom one first, then the show.

 

[00:51:29] MATT APODACA: Yeah. That’s the order of operations.

 

[00:51:32] ASHLEY RAY: Either of you have anything else to say about The Last of Us? You know, personally, I was happy with this finale.

 

[00:51:39] MATT APODACA: As somebody who knows the story and watching it with somebody who doesn’t know the story, I was still able to experience the show as if I hadn’t seen it before. So, everything that hit me–everything that’s supposed to hit you hard–hit me so hard. And I think that’s just a credit to the creative team and the performances and just the story. It all works. So, like, every single week, I’d watch it and, you know, be a fucking mess at the end of it and then just feel sad. And even last night, we had our talk about… “So, what do we think of Joel now?” You know what I mean? Is he a good man? Like, what is the right choice? Hard to know what the right choice is because obviously it’s such a fantastical situation. But I feel like a parent watching that show would probably have a different experience and a different take on the end of that show than somebody who doesn’t have a child. And that’s interesting, too.

 

[00:52:42] ASHLEY RAY: I don’t have kids, and I’m just kind of a naturally curious person. So, I would have been like, “Put her on the table. Let’s see.”

 

[00:52:53] CODY ZIGLAR: “Let’s bust that brain open, baby.”

 

[00:52:55] ASHLEY RAY: “I want to know where this goes.”

 

[00:52:59] MATT APODACA: But I think it’s fantastic. And I dread more to come just because, you know, discourse is discourse. But I think they did a fantastic job, and I can’t wait to see how they adapt the second game.

 

[00:53:13] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah, basically what Matt says. Actually, that and the sequel are my favorite video games of all time. I also knew what was going to happen, and I still found myself blubbering like a baby when Sarah gets shot in the pilot. Even though I’ve played that thing a half a dozen times, it still turned me into a giant mess of emotions. Fantastically adapted. Amazing performances. Cast like a motherfucker. HBO has many strings, but one of them is knowing how to cast a series. They just stacked that motherfucker with fantastic performers. It fills the blanks in the game that weren’t filled in. And it changes stuff and pivots when it needs to pivot and update stuff. And I also, like Matt, am very excited for the second season. I will not be engaging in any discourse because I don’t use Twitter. So, I won’t have to worry about that. But if they can just keep doing what they’re doing, which I think they will because Neil Druckmann wrote and directed the video games and he’s writing and directing the series. It’s the most excited I’ve been for a show in a very long time, and I’m glad that we have a network like HBO that can do these miniseries–well, by the way.

 

[00:54:28] ASHLEY RAY: Same, same. And like you said, I’m just really happy to see where it goes. HBO, you’re killing it with this. Everything else–I don’t know–get it together over there, Zaslav. I don’t know. But The Last of Us, you’re doing great. Cody, Matt, where can people find you? Do you have anything you want to plug?

 

[00:54:46] CODY ZIGLAR: Check out Miles Morales: Spider-Man #4. I think it literally drops at the time this drops, so check that out; I’m writing comic books. And Futurama–whenever it premieres. I don’t know when it is, but hopefully soon. So, check it out.

 

[00:54:59] ASHLEY RAY: Yes, the lovely world of animation writing. It’ll be out at some point.

 

[00:55:04] MATT APODACA: For me, I don’t have anything as cool as that. You can follow me on Instagram @mattapodaca, but I’ll be on something soon that people can see. And listen to Get Played here on Earwolf. It’s our video game podcast. If you liked us talking about The Last of Us, we did an episode last year about the first game, when the rerelease came out. So, go ahead and check that out.

 

[00:55:32] ASHLEY RAY: Yeah. And I know a lot of you nerds were talking about more of the video game stuff. I couldn’t help you out there. Go let Matt help you with that.

 

[00:55:38] MATT APODACA: Yeah, I got you. I got you.

 

[00:55:40] ASHLEY RAY: There you go. I want to thank you both for joining me. This was so much fun. We can firmly say The Last of Us was better than the Oscars and probably all television put together. It’s better than movies.

 

[00:55:50] CODY ZIGLAR: Yeah.

 

[00:55:51] ASHLEY RAY: And I think we all came to that conclusion after this conversation.

 

[00:55:54] MATT APODACA: Absolutely. 100%

 

[00:55:54] CODY ZIGLAR: 1000%.

 

[00:55:56] ASHLEY RAY: Thank you so much! TV, I Say with Ashley Ray is an Earwolf production made by me, Ashley Ray-Harris. It’s engineered by Abby Aguilar and produced by Amelia Chappelow. And our original theme song is by RaFia. It means so much to me if you go rate, review, subscribe. Follow TV, I Say. Let us know what you think and tell your friends. Share with your Golden Girls. Tell your Boys. If you love my TV recommendations, let everyone you know know. For special TV Club members, join my Patreon. And you can also find my full archive of ad free episodes of TV, I Say over on Stitcher Premium. Use Promo code “tvisay”–all one word–for a one-month free trial at stitcher.com/premium.