EP. 195 — A Playful Approach to Fitness w/ Tally Rye

Jameela Intro [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, a podcast against shame. Happy New Year! I can’t fucking believe it either. We’re doing it again. Another year of life, as if we have even had a chance to catch our breath from the last year or the last couple of years of true dumpster fire, shit in hell. But we’re going to try. We’re going to try our best. We’re going to do it together. And I’m going to do my best to bring you uplifting content that makes you feel hopefully empowered and interested and just like you have a brief bit of escape from the world. And I really feel, and I know that this is presumptuous of me, but I feel like I’ve nailed it this week. I love fucking nailing my first episode of the year with the exact tone that I want to continue with. I really feel like I did it and I love this conversation so much. It’s so important and it’s perfect for January because this is a time where we are being shamed en masse about what we weigh and are we beach body ready and are we eating too much? We need to be very restrictive during January. Are we going to be punished in January for everything we ate in December that we were already being made to feel guilty about before December even arrived? Like, are we giving up all meat or cheese or dairy or alcohol, or are we going to exercise every day of the month? It’s a lot. And it’s not just diet is also fitness. There’s so much fitness pressure. A lot of people just being like in January, as of January, I’m going to really get my shit together and I’m going to get a fucking ass that won’t quit. And we have all at some point, I think, been a victim of this. I like it. I like a New Year’s resolution. I like the energy and the forward moving momentum of a clean slate feeling. But I just feel like it always gets used in the most reductive and damaging and ultimately almost always unsustainable way. There’s, I think there’s a specific date in February by which most people quit their resolutions, and it’s a kind of known date because that’s so common. And so I’m trying to find things that we can work on and focus on in January that we could actually sustainably keep up, not just for the rest of the year, but hopefully for the rest of our lives. And when it comes to exercise, that’s incredibly tricky because the messaging is so fucking toxic. The exercise industry is so toxic. I’ve been talking about it for a few years now, how much it’s become intertwined with diet culture, and it’s so much about punishment and restriction and and quote unquote, discipline to the point of madness. There’s nothing wrong with a bit of discipline. But what we are seeing is being encouraged towards discipline, above all else, above your happiness, above your health, above your true wellbeing or sanity. And that’s too much. I’m sick of the way that exercise culture has become so exclusionary. I think exclusive is a bad word that should be outdated because it means locking people out. It’s a word that really baffles me when used in business because it just means less clientele. It means less people at the party. It’s so ridiculous to me. Exercise is something that should be for everyone. It should be completely democratized. And yet we make people feel like you have to look a certain way and you have to be a certain age. And it’s preferable, I guess, if you’re skinny and white and privileged, and we price people out so badly and make people feel pressured to wear these very fancy, very expensive uniforms, which they have to have certain body types to look the quote unquote right way within, it’s just too fucking much. And I’m sick of it. And I have decided that this year is going to be the year in which I really pick up my fight against the exercise industry. I refuse for us to all be shut out because we don’t fit this cult like mode. And thankfully, my guest today feels exactly the same way. And she’s such a legit example of someone who’s broken free from the cult of the current exercise industry. She’s a personal trainer. She’s also an excellent podcaster and writer. Her name’s Tally Rye. She’s in the UK, and she is someone who’s been right in the belly of the beast, like right at the core of exercise culture, taking over her life and harming her happiness and harming her own physical health to now breaking away from it, using everything she learned as a personal trainer to now liberate other people and completely retrain our attitude towards exercise. And that is something that we all desperately need because it’s so hard to not see it as no pain, no gain, to not see it as a means of weight loss or punishment or discipline that you can show the world. We kind of know that it’s about mental health, but we don’t really have it explained to us en masse as to exactly how it helps our mental health and exactly how it improves our physical health. And she’s very focused on that. She’s very focused on The Why, on the why we should exercise when it’s not about weight loss and on the ways in which we can make it accessible to ourselves and the ways in which we can reprogram ourselves about it and bring some joy back into it and no longer make it feel like something we’re doing to our bodies or that our bodies are doing to us, but it’s something we’re doing with our bodies to make our fuckin lives better. This chat is just two women who’ve never met each other before, who both have very similar journeys, kind of trauma bonding and ranting about the state of exercise and eating disorder culture and how the two are just so interlocked now and how together she and I are going to break this shit up and break through it with all of you and take exercise back once and for all. I’m sorry, I’m, I probably sound like I’m sort of on my preachy, you know, ranty high horse right now. I have just had a coffee, but I also feel so passionately about this. I’ve been starting this movement called Move Your Mind on my Instagram. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it before. It started around the time where I was doing Marvel and I was stunt training, and it completely reframed the way I looked at using my body. And as someone who had an eating disorder for 20 years. It’s been a hell of a journey for me to learn how to exercise from a place of doing it for me rather than to me to punish myself for daring to eat. I had a huge trauma around exercise that I discuss in this episode. And I’ve really reformed it and I want to bring everyone along for the ride because my mental health is exponentially better for having now incorporated joyous, free, non pressured movement into my life. Intuitive movement as Tally Rye, my guest today, calls it. She’s so smart, she’s so kind, she’s so gently encouraging, doesn’t make anyone feel judged. She’s so open about her own misinformation that she both ingested and put out into the world years and years ago when she started as a fitness influencer. I just loved talking to her. I love her journey. I love her authenticity. And I think it’s the message that you really need. There are certain things in this episode that we just don’t talk enough about or think enough about, and it felt really good to have it at the forefront of a conversation around exercise. Anyway, I’m just going to let you listen to the whole episode rather than tell you everything that’s going on in it I think I’m just very hyped for it. This is the excellent Tally Rye, and if you want to see her and me together in person on the 19th of January in London, I’m going to be hosting my first ever exercise and fitness event around everything I’ve just been discussing where we’re going to be wearing baggy clothes. It’s going to be no fuckin mirrors. We’re going to have sugary snacks and delicious food and a happy, nonjudgmental community of people of different sizes, disabilities, non disabilities, different ages hopefully. It’s a small event. It’s going to be super personal. We’re going to have panels and chats with experts like Tally and different doctors who can explain to us why we need to exercise for reasons other than fucking weight loss, other than only being around like our bodies, etc. And we will be having really fun exercise classes and I’ll be doing those exercises with all of you so you can find out about that on my Instagram where the tickets will be available. Just go to the link in my bio and I can’t wait to see some of you there. We will be doing these events, making them bigger and bigger and hopefully doing them all over the world if they are a success. But we just want to create a safe space for people to move their bodies in and bring back the joy and laughter to using our bodies that are trying so hard to keep us alive. And so I just want to reframe our attitudes around all this. I’ve been blabbing on for fuckin ages now, so I’m going to shut up and just let you enjoy the excellent Tally Rye.

Jameela [00:08:56] Tally Rye, welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

Tally [00:08:59] Thank you so much for having me. I’m good. I’m good. I’m feeling, I’m feeling optimistic about this year. I’m feeling quite positive and optimistic. And I’m up for it, you know?

Jameela [00:09:10] Okay, so like, what planet are you living on then because I, I want to get there. I want to feel the way that you feel. I’m still a bit freaked out from the last year/5 years/35 years. How are you able to feel optimistic? Give us some of that gold dust, please.

Tally [00:09:30] Well, for me, I feel like last year was a hard year, so I feel like it’s only up. At least, and I have to tell myself that that’s how

Jameela [00:09:42] That’s how we get through the day. Haha!

Tally [00:09:44] That’s how we get through the day. So it’s a good year. I am, on a personal level getting married this year.

Jameela [00:09:49] Oh, that’s nice! That’s good news.

Tally [00:09:50] Which is exciting. So that’s like an exciting thing to look forward to. And I’m just yeah, I’m just feeling and I don’t know about you, but I just know myself a little bit more. I’m just, I’m just a bit more sure of myself a bit more, I know what I want. I know what I want to do, I know, you know. So I just think, I have to say it’s interesting, I look back and I’ve shared so much of this online and there’s rarely been anything I’ve deleted, so if you wanted to go back and look at my more problematic stuff, you’ll probably find it. And you’ll hear me though, saying like all the right things, so like 7, 8 years ago, I’m telling people, you know, you’ve got to love yourself, like, you know, it’s okay to you know, it’s okay to take rest days, it’s okay to like ,it’s all about balance and everything. And yet it took me a very long time to truly internalize that. I suppose the real big turning point for me was discovering this sort of anti-diet movement, discovering intuitive eating, the framework by Evelyn Tribole and Elyse Resch, and that really transformed my relationship with food because even though I’d kind of very slowly been letting go of so many of the rules I had around food, it really put into words my experience and also gave me a lot of tools to really sort of unpick those kind of firmer knots that I had.

Jameela [00:11:08] Mhm.

Tally [00:11:08] And that was huge.

Jameela [00:11:09] Well, for a personal trainer for you to start to unpack the no pain, no gain culture.

Tally [00:11:17] That I fully participated in.

Jameela [00:11:18] That’s really hard because it’s a real, it’s a real like church now. Gym culture, it’s like there’s a biblical attachment to the tenants of exercise culture and that includes the no pain, no gain and all of the fucking slogans and the protein shake culture and the uniform. There’s a fucking uniform for the gym in a way that there just didn’t used to be. It was just like any clothes that you don’t like anymore used to be what you would exercise in.

Tally [00:11:45] Yes!

Jameela [00:11:45] Do you know what I mean? It was like anything that’s shit, that’s got stains on it that you can’t get out. We all used to go, you know, out exercising, looking like we’d just shit our pants. We were covered in stains. But now it’s like expensive, luxe, trendy, matching, hyper-revealing for both male, female, regardless of your gender, like very revealing, there to like kind of show off your discipline, to show off your results and to motivate you to be like, “Well, if I don’t look good in this, then I need to work harder.” There’s so much subliminal messaging in the uniform of exercise and in the culture and the photographs that are up at the gym and and the people that we see always look the same and don’t have any body fat, so we associate body fat with not being fit, even though that’s completely not fucking true. Because otherwise, how the fuck is Lizzo and all these other amazing dancers and humans who don’t like, Jack Black has more energy than anyone I’ve ever seen in my life, and he’s in his like 50s and he’s not super toned, and so it’s just a, anyway. My point just being that it feels like a very constrictive industry, one that must feel like breaking out of a cult when you start to go, “This is all horseshit.”

Tally [00:13:00] Totally.

Jameela [00:13:01] So what was your, that was also, I guess, like a gradual turnaround of

Tally [00:13:06] Yeah,

Jameela [00:13:06] I need to stop punishing my body.

Tally [00:13:08] So pre-pandemic I was, you know, whilst having an online platform and I was working, I’m still working in a gym. I was training clients in what was essentially a body transformation gym. I wasn’t a body transformation personal trainer, but I needed to rent a space and that was the space. And yeah, I could see, I could hear these conversations around me. I could, I walked into the studio and just had a ton of blown up photos on the wall and, you know, the whole slogan was like, you know, how to, we make you look good naked kind of vibe. And absolutely, it was a cult and people were bought into it. And all I heard were people turning up to the personal training sessions, terrified, like terrified to tell their personal trainer that they had a pizza at the weekend and just the whole like I had, I had so many conversations like, “So just just don’t use butter,” and just and I’m like, guys, why are we as personal trainers discussing nutrition to begin with? We have such basic nutrition training. The personal trainers, you know, I feel very strongly that personal trainers should not be giving detailed nutrition plans to clients because there’s a reason why people go to university to study nutrition, and it’s nothing that we could do in a, in a couple of days or an online course. Like there is a lot of that arrogance in the fitness industry of of we know a little, so we think we know a lot but really we know a little and we can help people a little bit. But we have to be really aware of where are, where the boundaries are of how we can help people. And I’m a firm believer of staying in your lane, you know?

Jameela [00:14:40] Yeah, I just had like a PTSD, a memory of going to a personal gym where this trainer pulled out this thing that looks likem it’s some sort of fat clencher I guess like it’s, do you know, what I’m talking about?

Tally [00:14:53] Yes! Yes, yes, yes.

Jameela [00:14:53] It’s like, it looks like a, like it’s going to pick up salad from a bowl or something, but it

Tally [00:14:57] It like pinches your skin.

Jameela [00:14:58] It actually grabs your fat and measures it.

Tally [00:15:01] Calipers.

Jameela [00:15:02] He would do that. He would do, that’s what it’s, what’s it called?

Tally [00:15:05] Calipers.

Jameela [00:15:06] Fucking crazy like medieval horseshit that we have in these gyms. And he would get the calipers out, and he would measure my fat and I would be terrified after Christmas. You know, I was like 23, 24 years old, and often that’s when I would when other people would get on the fucking wagon of January fitness, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I would not because I’d, you know, gained a pound or 2 pounds like over Christmas. And so I then wouldn’t go back and then often it would be like another two years or three years before I try and go to someone to like help me exercise again. But it was always from a place of “Can you make me look like a Pussycat doll?” That was the only place I ever wanted to exercise from was like specifically Nicole Scherzinger. Like Nicole Scherzinger’s body had me in a choke hold, even though I still couldn’t be bothered to exercise to get it, but that’s what I thought. It’s like either that or there’s no point exercising. I knew nothing about mental health. I knew nothing about the physical gains of like, the physical benefits of moving my body. It was all that. But you just yeah, you just unlocked the memory of those grabby caliper things. I can’t believe we do that, that people still do that in gyms. They grab people’s fat in a room.

Tally [00:16:18] Mhm. And they take photos of them in the most unflattering clothing they can find in the most unflattering lighting, and they make them look all disheveled and messy and pale, which I hate because I’m naturally pale, and I hate that we even have to be tanned to be deemed beautiful.

Jameela [00:16:32] Oh, if you can’t tone it, tan it, right.

Tally [00:16:34] And then they have this like spray tan and they’ve like got the teeth whitened and they’re wearing like clothes that actually fit them. And all of a sudden they’re like a completely transformed person. It is my bug bit. And like you say, like, I’ve just seen that play out so many times. And, you know, since I’ve kind of turned my back on that and transitioned to really specializing in intuitive movement and thinking about it, writing about it, working with people in that way, having my own experience with intuitive movement, I’ve just realized, like the massive association we have with exercise equals food restriction and a diet, and I must have an aesthetic or weight loss result to, for it to be deemed successful, actually really limits so many people from truly getting the benefits from exercise. And so they either A) get in a very all or nothing mindset. Like they’re all in, they’re all committed to their workout. This is, this is the epitome of January fitness and culture and wellness culture. We’re all in. We have to commit to these like really extensive workout plans that involve like very minimal rest, that include us working out at an absolute maximum 100% intensity every time. Alongside that, we’re also eating half the amount we were eating before Christmas. We’re drinking juices and we’re doing whatever else, and then we get to like February 1st and we’re exhausted, we’re tired. This is crap. You have no social life. You are getting up at 5 a.m. every day. Like, why would you want to do that? And I think then we get into this nothing phase where we go, “Okay, well, if I can’t commit to doing my five, six times a week, work out and do this perfectly, and I’m not seeing the results that I was told I was promised and my body doesn’t look any different. And I’ve been absolutely killing myself, like it’s painful, it feels punishing, isn’t feel fun or anything I could remotely and look forward to. It’s a massive chore I have to get done. Why the hell would I put myself through that if I’m not even getting the results that I was told I was going to get? So fuck that. I’m not doing it and I’m going to go and do nothing. And then all of a sudden you start eating all the foods you weren’t allowed to eat. You start skipping the gym because it’s like we have this inner rebel in us that must rebel. And it’s totally understandable and actually a very normal reaction because we’ve gone through such a period of restriction, through exercise through food, through everything else that you are rebounding so naturally.

Jameela [00:19:02] Your brain is protecting you. It’s going, “That’s awful for you. You have terrible traumatic associations with that. Don’t do that.” And also, when something’s starting to hurt or something, you know, like the first few minutes of some exercise can be uncomfortable.

Tally [00:19:15] Yeah, yeah.

Jameela [00:19:15] And then it becomes easier. But your brain is supposed to be like, “You’re uncomfortable, you’re uncomfortable. Stop, stop, stop.” And then you kind of have to learn where is a reasonable place to override that voice and be like, “Okay, I’m not actually in pain, so I’m going to keep going. I’m just, it’s just like feeling a bit hard, and it’s a bit achey.” But also you have to learn then that no, there is a certain time when your brain is telling you, “Fucking stop, this is too far.” I didn’t know where that line was, so I would like sign up for like, I would always do these like short bursts of exercise that would last about three weeks and then I would injure myself and then not go back. But I would get like a 30 day Bikram yoga pass. And then because I was fucking broke, you know, I would be like, “I want to get my fucking money’s worth.” And I would do Bikram yoga 30 days, or I’d try to do it 30 days in a row. And after about 22 days I look like an Indian raisin because I’m so dehydrated. I have no way, idea how to like aftercare myself. And I’ve pulled every muscle going and I’m in agony. Like I’m, I’m walking like I’ve just had so much fun sex that I definitely hadn’t had because I had no energy so exhausted from the Bikram yoga.

Tally [00:20:25] Libido is down.

Jameela [00:20:26] Libido is on, is under the ground. It’s six feet under.

Tally [00:20:29] Hahaha! Yep.

Jameela [00:20:32] And I’m just dehydrated and all like fucked up. My back and my neck and everything like, everything’s hurting all of the time. Then my brain would just go like, “Oh, exercise doesn’t suit you at all.” That wasn’t exercise.

Tally [00:20:46] Yes, so exactly. You have just perfectly described

Jameela [00:20:48] That beyond excess, yeah.

Tally [00:20:50] You’ve described the what I call the all or nothing cycle. And it is my mission to help people find a something. Because you, like most other people, especially this time of year, are looking to suddenly kick start this massive health kick. And it’s so overwhelming and we’re over committing to change and we’re over committing to super vigorous things. I’m actually think a 30 day yoga like pass or something is such a great example of that because you do. You get to day 22 and you’re like, “I, I actually can’t do this.”

Jameela [00:21:25] I’m done.

Tally [00:21:25] Yeah. Right. And then you miss a workout and then you miss a few more workouts and then you feel like, “Well, I can’t go back now because I’ve missed three, so there’s no point.”

Jameela [00:21:32] I’ve fallen off the wagon

Tally [00:21:33] I’ve fallen off the wagon and there’s no way I can get back on. So naturally you just do nothing. Then in another six months, it gets to summer and you’re starting feeling shit about yourself again because now we’re all wearing less clothes and we all feel like we’re comparing ourselves again. And then we’re like, “Okay. Right. I’m going to sign up to this app now and I’m going to do this 30 day shred plan, and then we’re at the gym and then we have to do it for 30 days and then we can’t do it again. And then lo and behold, we’re back where we started. And I work with so many people that go through this cycle, and instead it’s really about how can we find something and what does that something look like? And a big thing is really helping people find the fun, the pleasure, the enjoyment, the playfulness. You know, we are yes, we are adults, but really at our core, we are big kids. And I think one of the biggest reframes I want to get across to people is, how can you make movement fun and playful and kind of meeting your inner child? So, so many people I work with, when we’re thinking of all the different ways you can move your body that often are total opposite of anything they’ve done before, how can we kind of find the fun stuff that you enjoy? For some people, it might be, I mean, I say this like it’s a little kid activity, maybe it’s not. Some people, it’s like pole dancing, some people it’s tap dancing. You know, it might be bike riding, it might be trampolining, climbing. I don’t know. Whatever you want it to be, karate, whatever it is, that there are so many ways to move your body and it doesn’t have to be, like I say this all or nothing process. It can be something you enjoy and actually look forward to, but there’s often a lot of work we have to do to kind of shut out the diet culture noise and to reframe movement. So it’s something that you actually enjoy and look forward to. For me personally, that was tennis. I am like, love playing tennis. I’ve always watched tennis for years. I am a big fan, but this was the first year that I finally took up tennis, had tennis lessons, and I can’t tell you how much more purpose it has brought to the way I move my body, because now I’m thinking about, “Right, what can I do to help me get better at tennis? I want to get fitter at tennis.” Because I tell you what, the the 60, 70, 80 year olds at my club are running circles around me. They are killing me, so I’ve got to keep up. I want to play. I want to, I want to get involved in more of the social stuff. So like, how can I get better at that? How can I improve my skills? And so I think the big thing is like, how can I reframe this so it actually supports my life? It’s self-care and it’s fun rather than being punishment because as we say for speaking especially about the exercise and mental health conversation, I think we think, I think we think all exercise is beneficial for us no matter what. But if you are exercising to the point of exhaustion, if you’re not taking rest days, if you’re not listening to your body, if you’re doing it from a place of guilt and shame, if you’re doing it from a place of not feeling good enough or feeling like I have to go and punish my body into being smaller, into being acceptable, it is not then benefiting your mental health in the way you think it is. And actually I would argue that it’s detrimental to your overall health and wellbeing to be working out from a place of shame and guilt and negativity. And actually if we’re coming at it from a place of self-care, of challenge, of fun, of play, not only will you enjoy it, you’ll be more consistent, which is the key, and you will therefore reap the physical and mental health benefits that that really do benefit you, you know.

Jameela [00:25:12] Yeah, it’s also important to remember that like physiologically we are different. A) Obviously as individuals we are different. But I believe, you know, I’ve spoken to quite a few fitness experts about this, but for women in particular, for the female biological system, it’s not actually good for us to engage in like a lot of ballistic exercise and a lot of very, very high intensity workouts. Like that’s bad for our cortisol levels and that can throw off our insulin and our hormone balance. So it’s not, it’s not good for us hormonally to engage in very, very stressful, very, very high intensity workouts that actually low intensity, you know. And we’re encouraged towards whatever is the most kind of like, you know, the fastest result. Shock your body.

Tally [00:25:55] Mhm.

Jameela [00:25:55] But that might have quicker results at first. But after a while, it starts to become quite detrimental to your long term health. And by the way, it also then starts to impact your body shape because your body’s fighting back because it has to because we’re not supposed, women are not, it’s so ironic that women respond so extremely to stress, given how fucking stressful the world is for us. But I would say that adding on to that, having something that also doesn’t feel like a punishment while you’re doing it, something that feels like play would only be less likely to spike your cortisol and to spike your adrenaline.

Tally [00:26:30] And the biggest thing is consistency. And it sounds really unsexy and really boring, but, you know, the main thing that’s going to benefit you overall is having a level of consistency with movement throughout the years rather than these short bursts here and there. And often the short bursts, like I say, come when you’re doing superintense stuff. So finding something you enjoy, finding something that’s a suitable effort level for you is really important because that means you can have consistency. We think more is more, but it’s not. It’s quality of movement over quantity, and it’s about consistency and sustainability. And I think that is always missing from a very mainstream fitness conversation because we’re always looking at what’s the best workout for results rather than what’s the best work out for me, for my body, for my mind. And that’s different for everyone, you know.

Jameela [00:27:26] It is. There is an issue there, which is that I think we are a results based like I don’t know if it’s our species

Tally [00:27:31] Totally

Jameela [00:27:32] But, you know, we want instant gratification and we want to be able to see an improvement. And so when you’re looking for a muscular difference, that takes fucking months, if not years, to really build to a point where it’s like visibly obvious, where you get the gratification of the result. For me, reframing it in my mind is sleeping better.

Tally [00:27:52] Yes.

Jameela [00:27:53] Or feeling calmer or having like a sharper mind, like less brain fog. That was my instant gratification results, which if you’re not looking out for the signals of the benefits of exercise like improved mood, etc., then it can feel like, “Well, I’m yeah, I’m walking every day or I’m doing zumba every day and nothing’s really changing on my body.” It can feel frustrating. But if you look for certain markers like the emotional markers or sleep markers or stress markers, then you are going to see those results. I just had to learn what I was looking for, otherwise it felt pointless. And I think we need, I think a lot of people need something to be working towards. Just knowing something’s good for you isn’t always enough for us. We need some sort of tangible, “Well I took time out of my day to do this thing and just knowing it’s something chemical isn’t quite enough.” And I think journaling your markers.

Tally [00:28:45] Yes, so through the framework of intuitive movement I use, that’s exactly what I encourage. So firstly, I encourage people to, you can journal how you feel before, during, and after a workout and just really reflect on that. Secondly, for people who are perhaps finding things that they do enjoy and want to get good at, I use myself as tennis as the example, you can track your skill progression. You can track your form during a, during a workout. You know, if you’re at the gym, you may be noticing, “Oh, I’m lifting that heavier or that heavy thing, I can do a few more reps of it.” If you’re running, it’s like, “Oh, I ran a little bit further. Instead of to that bench, I can now run to that lamp post.” If you’re looking at speed, you can notice your speed. I think even with dancing, say you can notice your confidence and see your confidence in how you’re performing your routines. And there’s so many tangible ways of seeing improvement and feeling improvement. But like you say, we don’t hear about those. We’re not educated on those because we’re just driven home before and after photos. And, you know, I want to make it really clear to every listener, a fitness journey is not the same as a weight loss journey. They’re actually two very separate things. And I think people conflate the two so much that if they don’t feel they’re getting this real visible transformation, then they’re not getting fitter. But that’s actually not true at all. You can get fitter, stronger. You can improve your cardiovascular capacity, you can build your muscle, you can improve your agility, your balance, your speed, you can do all of those things and the number on the scale may not change. I think we wrongly look at that number to validate.

Jameela [00:30:31] When I did Marvel, the number on the scale went up because I was building like muscle and I was becoming really strong, and my balance was changing and my body was changing and my ass became, I had an ass. It was very brief. I thought I was going to keep it up. I didn’t keep it up. But like I, I felt myself expanding and it didn’t scare me because I was at the same time also seeing that it’s like, “Wow, I feel the most powerful I’ve ever felt.” I was like, “People better not fuck with me in an uber, you know?” Now I feel like I could really, and it’s really only if they know the exact stunts that I know. Like the opposite side of the exact stunts that I know can I fake fight them?

Tally [00:31:10] Like carefully

Jameela [00:31:10] Yeah, exactly.

Tally [00:31:11] Choreographed moves.

Jameela [00:31:12] Be like, “No sorry, um, can you be over there with the knife? Thank you. No, I only know it from that angle.” But it is remarkable. And you’re right, it’s not about that. It’s not about that number on a scale. You and I are about to do an event together in a few weeks in which we are going to be encouraging people to come along and try out different types of non, and I say vanity based only because it’s like non appearance based workouts. And that to me is something that’s really important because I’m in Los Angeles. I’m a fucking terrible dancer. Like a terrible, terrible dancer, like a Mr. Bean, like a drunk Mr. Bean dancer, which I don’t think is any surprise given my personality. But I, deep down, we all hope we’ll be Beyonce. I’ve tried it out and it’s not, it’s not happening for me. And what’s really frustrating for me is that in Los Angeles, you know, it’s a lot of classes where people film themselves and it’s a high, high level, like some of the people here are fucking trained dancers at these dance classes. So you turn up and I’m sure it’s the same in like big cities like London and New York, etc.. I was like, you can’t just go to like a regular sort of dance aerobics type class where I could just learn a sort of basic dance routine. I’ve got to be like, up and then on my knees and then upside down and I have to know how to twerk and I know how to do this, that and the other. Like it’s so, it’s so competitive and it’s such a high level of performance that you’re supposed to deliver, and then people film themselves and you might be in the fucking background of their filming. Can we please talk about fucking filming yourself

Tally [00:32:52] Yes!

Jameela [00:32:53] In the gym and in dance classes and how I can understand why you want to do that cause it’s your life and you want to document it and you want to put it out there. But fuck me, we have no real rules around who else is in the background of that video. And there’s no real template for people being able to say without seeming like an asshole or a Karen, like, “Hey, I don’t really want you to film us three doing this bit of the dance section and then putting that on the Internet.” We’re not really, like we don’t really have like an allowed dialog for “Please don’t film me in the background of your workout.” People are made to feel like fucking assholes if they say that. There’s no privacy anymore.

Tally [00:33:33] Mhm.

Jameela [00:33:34] Am I crazy? Am I old? Like what’s happening?

Tally [00:33:39] No, no, I don’t think you are. And I think this is just like an evolving issue, isn’t it? In the sense of, we just haven’t had this before. So you’re right, like ten, 15, 20 years ago, if you were like, on a TV thing and they were filming something in the street, they probably had to get you to sign something to be allowed to use it. That just doesn’t happen today. Anyone can post anything on the internet and look, it is partly my job to post things on the internet as well. So and have I filmed myself in workout situations? Absolutely. I try to be super mindful of not filming anyone else, but you’re right. I think that there are conversations to be had and there are things that I think we need to be more aware of. So I’m glad you’re bringing it up.

Jameela [00:34:15] Yeah, because I think it is something that’s making a lot of people more than ever now not want to go to the gym. It’s just like, “Oh, I don’t really want like, it’s not my most like.” You don’t want to be thinking about what your face is doing or how your hair looks, you know, like you don’t want to feel like you have to wear makeup and like, you know, be camera fucking fresh and camera ready, if you aren’t looking to document your fitness journey for the entire public. It’s really insane, like people, I got friends who look like they’re going to the club now when they’re going to the gym because they don’t know whose background image they’re going to be, you know, nationally shamed on or, you know, displayed on, even if they’re not, you know, going to be shamed. I think this is a really, really problematic part of our culture now that you don’t, like. There should be a special corner I think in a gym where people can film themselves, where there’s no one able to be in the background like that.

Tally [00:35:06] I’d actually love that.

Jameela [00:35:06] We should put that in gyms because like it’s insane to me that you’re able to just put other strangers on the Internet in an intimate, private, personal space. People are working through shit in the gym. They’re working through maybe body image issues or trauma or self-consciousness, or they’re taking out their fucking terrible day, or they’re a mum of three and that’s her private time. I really think it’s like a really big conversation that we need to have where we need some sort of a protocol for being able to say “I’m sorry, but no,” like either private hours in the gym, you know, where there’s a special implement hour where everyone can film themselves. But I really do think this is an issue that’s making a lot of people not want to participate in dance classes or exercise or pole dancing or anything.

Tally [00:35:52] Hm. I think there’s an interesting conversation as well to kind of add on to that. Something I talk about a lot with people is how we, so many of us exercise in the massive self objectification mindset. We’re thinking about constantly when we’re in the gym, what do we look like? How do other people perceive me right now? I’m in a class like, what are people thinking of my body as I moving? We rarely get to just be in our bodies and be present. And I think what you’re saying with social media and this emphasis on potentially you’re going to be in someone’s video. But also so many people film themselves now that we kind of get in this mindset of thinking about, okay, well, I get to see what that person looks like and they may be talking about their body when they’re exercising. And therefore I have to be thinking about that when I’m doing the same.

Jameela [00:36:37] Mhm.

Tally [00:36:38] And one thing I’m super passionate about and it’s kind of my mission this January is to really help people get out of that self objectification mindset and really focus on being more present in themselves and in their bodies and also working on those other barriers to being in fitness spaces. I’m actually, I’m actually starting doing a coaching group this January that specifically focuses on helping people feel more comfortable in public fitness spaces. And you’re right, I think that’s certainly one of the barriers to, that stops people engaging in movement because they feel like we’re all looking at each other, we’re all judging each other. And this is especially true for people in larger bodies because they get such patronizing, “Well done” comments. “Good for you. Well done. You showed up,” which is, I know it’s well-meaning, but it also is totally assuming something about that person, that body, their intention behind the workout that you have no idea about. So if you see someone in a larger body in the gym or any sort of fitness thing this January and beyond, please just treat them the same as everyone else. Please don’t make them feel like

Jameela [00:37:44] Don’t tell them how inspiring they are.

Tally [00:37:46] Yes. Please, please don’t like film, oh my goodness. Please don’t film them anonymously and then upload them and say, you know, whatever else. Like, let’s not do that. I think this is one of the, the other big thing is like, we don’t know people’s intention behind that movement. We don’t know the day they’ve had. We don’t know why they’re there, like you say, they’re working through stuff. So let’s just, let’s leave people to be and really focus on ourselves and feeling good and moving in the way that feels good for us and listening to our bodies. And actually, the less time we spend in self objectification mode, the last time we, we spend in judgment mode, we actually get to tune into our body more. And so much of what intuitive movement is about is that reconnection with your body of like, you said earlier on, “I didn’t know what, I didn’t know what my limits were. I didn’t know when it was enough for my body. I didn’t actually understand how to listen to those cues within my body.” And if we take away all that other noise, we can actually start cultivating that awareness, that introspective awareness of, “Okay, what does it feel like when I’m really pushing myself? What does it feel like when I find a middle ground? What actually feels comfortable for me? How does my body like to move?” So many questions we don’t ask ourselves. One of the things I do with my clients is often, how does your body tell you it wants to stop? How does your body tell you it wants rest? And they just look at me blankly. Like what? We don’t.

Jameela [00:39:11] Yeah.

Tally [00:39:11] How? What? Excuse me?

Jameela [00:39:13] It’s so, it’s so funny.

Tally [00:39:15] It’s one of the best things you can do is once you start connecting with your body and understanding your need for rest, it means that when you move and your body asks you for rest, you can honor it, your body can trust you. And therefore you know that when you engage with movement, you’re not going to be sucked into that all 110% mentality. And actually you get that something that we were talking about. And so you can engage with movement without knowing like, “Oh my God, this is going to be painful and terrible and challenging and I’m going to not be able to walk the next day,” but actually, “Oh, I can do this whilst listening and trusting my body, going at my own pace, doing it in a way that suits me, not worrying about what anyone else is thinking, not worrying about what my body looks like. And I’m getting out of this, what I need.” And I just think, it seems like subtle things, but they all add up to make a big shift.

Jameela [00:40:06] Well, it’s also like we have so much conditioning in our culture that like, again, like not to hammer this home, but no pain, no gain. It’s like, when it’s hurting, you’re told like

Tally [00:40:13] Yes.

Jameela [00:40:14] That now you’re in the fat burning zone. Now you’re really making change. And like when my, I remember, like my friends would like come back from doing like reformer pilates and could literally, like, not get out of bed or couldn’t like have a shower or something because they’re in so much pain. They were like, “Oh, I just love it. I just love it. Like, I love this feeling.” Like whenever like that, like agony in your ass, like the day after doing 400 fucking squats or whatever. And then I just really feel like I’ve like, “Oh, I love this burn.” Like this extraordinary reprograming to, like, see that pain where your body’s going, “No, this was too far.” Like a light ache, gentle ache has to be expected when you’ve pushed your body, you know the muscles torn. It needs to repair, it gets bigger, blah, blah, blah. I get that. But like real pain. And I think women, again, are quite susceptible to this, although I know that men are like increasingly being like, you know, dragged down the fucking sinkhole of this culture. But women are so hyper normalized to enduring so much pain. So, you know, we’ve been taught like oh, it’s a good thing. Pat on the back, well done. You’ve pushed yourself to the point of agony.

Tally [00:41:16] Mhm.

Jameela [00:41:16] And so that means you’re going to see some results. That’s part of, I think, why we’ve no longer got that trust in ourselves to know. And everything that I’m doing with Move For Your Mind because it was, because of Move For Your Mind that, which is a movement for anyone who doesn’t know, like for the last I think in when I started doing Marvel in 2021 was when I started doing Move For Your Mind of just like, just divorcing everything and just making it about mental health. It was to make sure that we exercise in baggy clothes and we eat a sugary snack a little, you know, sugary snack before or maybe during or afterwards, not as any kind of reward, but just as a kind of I’m not doing calories in, calories out. This gives me a bit of energy. It’s tasty. It gives me a bit of dopamine. And now the exercise is going to give me dopamine. I’m going to listen to disco music and that’s going to make me feel great. And I’m not going to look in a mirror and I’m not going to be judging how I look when I’m bending over cause I’m wearing a baggy outfit. It was just everything designed to make dopamine, the kind of, at the forefront of your exercise experience. And via doing that, I have completely reframed and I don’t look at it as any form of punishment or any form of self-consciousness. And I’m not judging myself at all because I have like gone against everything that the cult of exercise culture has told me. No cute, tight outfits that make me feel like I need to suck in my stomach, like no self-consciousness, no self-awareness, because I think it’s just so incredibly toxic. And I despair of how many years of my life I’ve had such a misunderstanding of exercise and therefore not reaped the benefits. I can’t believe that I sleep without sleeping pills now. Like it’s shocking to me that I, that I never thought, I just thought I was a lifelong insomniac. I never thought I was someone who could go for a walk and like during an argument and come back and be able to deliver like a sane resolution to a fight.

Tally [00:43:12] Mhm.

Jameela [00:43:12] I never thought I would look forward to my daily my daily one hour walk with the dog where we do zoomies together.

Tally [00:43:19] Yeah, I love that.

Jameela [00:43:19] So whenever they get the zoomies, I do the zoomies with them and we just get all of our energy out. I never thought that like I’ve been sick for the last five days. I used to kind of look forward to a period of no exercise and I’ve been fucking gutted every day that I couldn’t do it because I’ve noticed that my mood is so much lower and I’m so much less motivated. And I just feel like online and news and the world is so much more insurmountable when I’m not exercising that autonomy of taking control back of my body and my life by moving it and feeling good.

Tally [00:43:52] I’m a big believer in exercise isn’t therapy, but it is therapeutic and that it doesn’t solve the deeper issues that you would deal with in therapy. But it certainly helps you build your resilience and helps you give you the headspace and the clarity and just that clear mindedness to then approach your problems, then deal with whatever else is going on in your life. Then have that tough conversation, then go into that meeting that you’ve been dreading because you’ve given yourself that space, that self-care, that time. You’ve, you’ve filled your cup before then going into the world. And I think when we’re thinking of it that way, it makes such a difference. But yeah, that, that’s the other narrative. Like when we’re talking about the exercise and mental health conversation, there’s so much well-meaning stuff of like, “Exercise is your therapy. Just work out for your mental health.” And actually often what we’re doing, it can be what seems like a really helpful coping mechanism. Speaking from personal experience, it can be more like the way you sort of run away and avoid dealing with your stuff and actually instead of thinking of it that way and just suddenly focusing on all your stuff. Like if you’re experiencing a period of bad mental health, think of movement as one tool in your box and not the only tool.

Jameela [00:45:14] Yes.

Tally [00:45:14] And think about what other tools you can get in your box. That’s something I do with the people I work with and something I talk about in my book. It’s like, think of all those the different things you do, and it might be phoning a friend, it might be journaling, scheduling therapy, it might be walking your dog, but it’s a tool and it’s not the sole tool. And I think as we know with so many things, like if we’re relying on one thing, especially for our mental health, like, oh, that’s probably not going to turn out well if we have several things lean on

Jameela [00:45:41] It’s also going to make you not bother then, because you’re like, “Well, it’s not going to completely fix the problem, so why would I bother?” It’s like, no, just gets you that little bit closer. It just gets you that little bit closer to feeling in control. Another thing I just want to quickly, like touch on with you, especially because you are a trainer, is that, you know, I think it’s important to be aware of the fact that a lot of people don’t have that hour in a day.

Tally [00:46:01] Yes.

Jameela [00:46:02] All my mates who are mums are just like, “What hour? What half hour in a day do I have?”

Tally [00:46:07] Mhm.

Jameela [00:46:08] You know, because they’re constantly, there’s either baby hanging off their tit or they’re running after a toddler or this, that and the other. That is another fallacy of exercise culture of like, you need to drive to the gym and then you need to do an hour in the gym and you need to drive back. You need to have a shower. It’s like 3, 2 hours of your day sometimes when you map it out like that. I am a big subscriber of move in any way you can, wherever you can. Like I don’t go to a gym massively because of the filming issue. I don’t want to be in the background of other people’s films, so I don’t go to a gym. And that’s really annoying because I can’t use a lot of things that would be good for my Ehlers-danlos syndrome, but I just can’t fucking stand it. So I’ve got a few little, I’ve got like a hilariously small walking machine in my house that I just watch telly and I do a lot of walking on and then I’ve got a few little five kilogram weights that I can do stuff on, but I don’t often have time in my day. So other than walking my dogs, which is a huge priority for me, when I want to do any kind of muscle or fitness work, I’m just like, “You know what? I have 10 minutes today. That’s enough.” 10 minutes is something, better than nothing.

Tally [00:47:11] Totally.

Jameela [00:47:11] A lot of people think they won’t see any benefits. Can you reinforce that to people who are going into a busy year who are just like, “Yeah, yeah, it’s all good talking about fitness and gyms, but I don’t have the fucking time.”

Tally [00:47:21] Something is better than nothing. If you take one mantra from this episode, remember that. Because you’re right, 5 minutes, 10 minutes is something, and it can add up over time. And remember when we spoke about consistency? That is a way to maintain a level of consistency because once again, if we get trapped in this idea that workouts should be at least one hour or 45 minutes, otherwise they don’t count, we then get stuck in an all or nothing mindset again, because if I can’t do the whole one hour, then what’s the point? We need to, we need to kind of challenge that rule by doing shorter little bursts of things. There’s this phrase called “exercise snacking.” I quite like it.

Jameela [00:48:00] Mhm.

Tally [00:48:00] This idea that you can snack on movement throughout your day. I’d also like to say, especially to mums and stuff, you are picking up, what I pick up is a kettlebell, you’re picking up is a child every day. I think we always forget that, that there’s so much stuff that you’re doing in your house, in your day to day life that can be classed as movement. And you know, I have this phrase I always drive home is all movement counts. That includes gardening, that includes cleaning your house, hoovering your carpet, you know, scrubbing your shower. That all adds up. And actually, if we get stuck, if we kind of berate ourselves and start feeling guilty and a load of shame that we can’t do the gym workouts, the pilates classes like we’re seeing everyone do online, we then end up in a nothing phase. We’re doing nothing. And actually let’s just be honest and real with ourselves about what phase we’re in in our life. I always say to people, if you are, if you plan to engage with me for the rest of your life, if in this chapter you are more, you are having to give more attention to children, you are having to give more attention to your work, to a job, don’t panic. Try and keep a little bit of movement in there if you can, even if that is just, you know, walking around a bit more when you can or, you know, like I say, doing your chores and your house chores and your little five minute exercise snacks at home, like if that’s all you can do, that is like, that is fine because it’s not forever. It might not be like that forever. Priorities may get to change in the future.

Jameela [00:49:26] But just keep going, stay warm.

Tally [00:49:27] Yeah. Don’t panic. That’s it. Yes, stay warm. I like that. Don’t panic on it because I think that’s the thing. This whole all or nothing thing is so, is so encouraged

Jameela [00:49:38] Detrimental, yeah.

Tally [00:49:39] But it’s so encouraged by the fitness industry because they’re like, “You’re not doing enough. That’s why you’re plateauing. You should always be progressing. You should always be seeing improvement in what you’re doing. And actually that’s not real. That doesn’t reflect real life. As we know in our lives, like things ebb and flow, sometimes we’re in chapters of progress, sometimes we’re just treading water and it’s the same with movement. And so if right now you’re just able to tread water with doing the little bits you can, do that.

Jameela [00:50:06] Mhm.

Tally [00:50:06] Because eventually you’ll get to a point where you have more capacity, time, resources, energy to put more time into yourself.

Jameela [00:50:14] An example of one thing that I do that I find incredibly fun and is super helpful is that when I’m like, “Fuck, I haven’t had a chance to move my body today.” Someone else has walked the dogs or it’s raining really badly outside and my dogs are massive, massive snobs about the rain. That I’m like, “You know what? I’ve got 15 minutes. I’m going to pull a treat out of the drawer and I’m going to make my dogs chase me for 15 minutes.

Tally [00:50:38] I love that.

Jameela [00:50:39] And that to me is one of the most fun ways to have a burst of exercise. I’m bonding with the dogs. I’m exhibiting like, or like, revisiting my child self by playing.

Tally [00:50:51] Yes.

Jameela [00:50:51] And then I get a fucking amazing 15 minute workout where we’re doing like parkour over the living room, you know, and round the like little kitchen island. And so it’s like, there are these little ways that we underestimate that are for free. I don’t spend a lot of money on exercise and I don’t, I don’t want to. I just want to be able to like, be a part of helping building a movement alongside people like you. The reason I found you is because I asked people like, “Who’s someone who you feel like is a trainer who makes you feel good about exercise?” And your name came up like 150 times immediately. And that’s when I became like, familiar with your work. And you make people feel like they can and exercise culture makes people feel like they’re not allowed. It’s like, “who are you to join us in exercise culture?” Who the fuck are they? Who the fuck are they? Like, what is, what? Where are we at that we have told people there’s a huge membership fee and you have to have the uniform and the right perfect mindset and always make progress? It’s very ableist, it’s very fat phobic, it’s very mum phobic. It’s like, it’s just, it’s really frustrating and it’s really reassuring for me to know there are people and actual trainers out there like you. Like I have all the right sentiment, especially as an eating disorder sufferer. But to know there’s someone out there like you who’s been in the belly of the beast of the fitness industry has come out and is now encouraging us towards a healthier way. I so appreciate your work and you’re very gentle shame free, “yes you can” mindset.

Tally [00:52:30] Yes.

Jameela [00:52:31] It’s, this is what I want for everyone going forward into this new year is a gentle, like, gentle self encouragement. I’m so sick of punishment being hyper normalized.

Tally [00:52:40] I totally agree, and I actually love that way of describing what I do. It is gentle encouragement because, you know, if I think of like the idea of gentle parenting, it’s kind of gentle parenting yourself into movement.

Jameela [00:52:51] Mhm.

Tally [00:52:52] And it’s going, it’s coming from a place of “I’m good enough, and I’m worthy of this.” And, you know, I’m

Jameela [00:52:59] No one’s allowed to take this away from us. It’s a basic human right. It’s been taken, we’ve been discouraged away from us and made to believe that it can be taken away. Like there’s anything that can stop you from having the right to just move your body is mad.

Tally [00:53:13] No, totally. And I get so frustrated, you know, with the fitness space because it so loves to demonize certain forms of movement as well, like, you know, it’s like, “You’re doing too much cardio. We all need to be lifting weights.” Or like, “You’re doing too many weights. We should be doing this.” And it’s always someone who’s like going to, I always like follow the money. And if they’re, if they’ve got a plan to sell, then just be mindful of that. If they’re demonizing certain things and telling you, “Don’t do that, do this.” Because ultimately all movement counts. It should be from a place of self-care. And if we’re looking for longevity, then that’s really the way to approach it. Like I said, that isn’t sexy. That doesn’t make people tons of money necessarily in the same way. But what it does do is I think, like you say, actually mean that people can engage with movement in a meaningful way, in a hopefully harm free way and get them to enjoy it again.

Jameela [00:54:06] And it improves our society. It’s a happier society that we all get to live in. I, I so I so agree with you. I’m really happy that we’ve met.

Tally [00:54:13] Me too.

Jameela [00:54:13] And I’m really happy that you and I are going to sit down in front of everyone in a few weeks in London. I hope everyone comes to my first little exercise event. Never, ever, ever did I think that I would be doing an exercise event, but I’m really happy that I found the light. And now I have collaborators like Tally and all the excellent people who’ll be there that day to join me to help us like take exercise back. We need to democratize exercise, and we’re going to do it together. And I adore you and your work, so thank you for coming here today. Happy fucking New Year.

Tally [00:54:48] Yeah, happy New Year! And honestly thank you Jameela, like love what you’re doing, love that you’re bringing this conversation to a wider platform, wider audience because, you know, it sadly is kind of niche and it shouldn’t be. This should be mainstream. So we’re going to make it mainstream together.

Jameela [00:55:00] 100%. Lots of love.

Tally [00:55:02] Yeah, to you to.

Jameela [00:55:05] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmie Gregory and Amelia Chappelow. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review, and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at I Weigh we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording, sharing what you weigh at iweighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

Listener [00:55:39] I weigh being a caring sibling, a loving child, and a loyal friend. I weigh being a cat parent and caretaker. I weigh caring about things that are bigger than me and committing myself to doing better. I weigh the mistakes I’ve made, and the lessons I’ve learned. I weigh taking care of myself even when it’s hard. I weigh being an advocate for mental health, intersectional feminism, and education. I weigh being a teacher as well as a lifelong learner. I weigh being a visibly proud, queer, trans and non-binary person. I weigh having a strong work ethic. I weigh graduating from a prestigious university program and then pursuing a second degree. I weigh good communication skills. I weigh living through severe anxiety and panic attacks, and I weigh being a kind, empathetic, passionate, compassionate and resilient human being.