EP. 149 — Asking Shadeen Francis

Jameela [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil, a podcast against shame. I hope you’re well. I am hanging on by a fucking thread because of what is going on in the world right now. What is going on in politics. And so I thought I’d just take a step back, and a step out and talk about our hearts and our minds for a little moment. I know a lot of you have been asking for me to bring back Shadeen Francis the excellent love and relationship and sex therapist onto our show because she’s been so magnificently helpful before. And a lot of you have a lot of questions. It feels like more questions than ever before post-pandemic. And maybe that means you have been doing some self investigating or some good reading, or you’ve been exposed to some things online that have made you reconsider things. And so I was thrilled to be able to ask her back. And she was very kind to come on and give me her time. And I put out to you a call for questions, and you almost broke my Instagram. And I really thank you because these questions were brilliant and they were so insightful. And I always try to remind you of this. A lot of the questions, however unique you may find them. And I mean, this was in a good way, not in a your questions are basic. They are repeated again and again and again. A lot of you have the same questions. And I say that so that you know that you are so, so, so not alone, even in the most specific of circumstances. It’s fascinating to be here to sift through all your letters and messages and see how many of you feel alone whilst going through the same situation as countless other people. And so we go all over the place. I really kind of like I hit her with everything, like I was really milking the most of her time and her wisdom. And so jumping all over the place to reach as many of your questions as was possible within an hour and a bit. But in this, we discussed the fears many people have about not having enough sex and why scheduling sex is important. Go with her on this. We discussed struggling with feeling comfortable and sexy in your own body after having a baby. We discuss how to manage a partner who jokes about sex to avoid rejection. We discuss balancing who you are in real life and versus what you want in the bedroom. And we discuss if it’s possible to have a happy, sexless relationship. You know, a lot of you write into me saying, can you cover people who are asexual, who don’t want to have sex and who don’t enjoy sex? And so we try to include that in this. There’s a million other things that we talk about. She’s phenomenal at destigmatizing every conversation and has the most soothing and beautiful voice. She’s a soothing and beautiful person. She is the absolutely iconic Shadeen Francis. Shadeen Francis welcome back to I Weigh yet again. You are setting records for being our most repeated guess to be asked back again and again, not only by me. As we know I am obsessed with you. I have been since the first time I met you. But now so is my audience. And I’m almost stressed as to how much you are needed right now, not only in your own personal life and your practice as a therapist, but also I’ve never had this many questions come in for any podcast episode. So it seems as though the people are thinking about things and asking questions more than ever before, and I love to see it, but thank fuck your here, because I would not be able to do this without you.

Shadeen [00:03:44] Thank you so much for having me. I mean, I feel so honored to be a part of this moment in time where, just like you’re describing, like people want to feel good and are curious about it and are talking about it. And so I’m so thrilled to be a part of that conversation.

Jameela [00:04:00] And it really feels as though the last two and a half years has kind of it’s woken something up in everyone, you know, that space and that time and the the feeling of mortality, you know, where it’s like, fuck, what if this could all go away tomorrow, did I live today well? Did I live today happily? And seeing all these huge like transformations and how people are living their lives, A lot of my friends are quitting their jobs and they’re listening to the Beyoncé music telling them to do so, and then they’re buying a a cheaper, smaller home further out and living in the countryside and getting out of the rat race and changing partners or gaining more and more partners. Like loads of my friends trying out polyamory for the first time. I’m just seeing all these kind of trends now emerging that feel like they’re very integral, some from a place of panic, but mostly, I would say, a lot of really healthy, happy, introspective questions.

Shadeen [00:05:01] I mean, in the therapy field, there is a term that we might use for a moment in time like this. We call that post-traumatic growth, right? That we go through something that is overwhelming and dis-regulating, you know, it’s a crisis or chaotic or just really disruptive. But what it can do is open up the opportunity for us to maybe not have exactly a fresh start, but for us to be like, well, fuck it, let me try something different. Right. This thing either wasn’t working or doesn’t work anymore, or maybe I just want more different, better. And it gives us an opportunity, some some added permission to go a different way. And for so many people that has been inherently growth ful, even though it’s been hard.

Jameela [00:05:48] Mmm. Well, these questions are brilliantly straightforward. And also, I just want to say thank you to everyone who wrote in. These are some of these are deeply personal questions, and it’s so vulnerable of you to even ask yourselves these questions. Never mind put that out there on social media. To me and my team, we’ve obviously been incredibly discreet with what you’ve said. But your questions, I can’t tell you how many times the same questions come up. So I want you to know that you’re not alone. And thank you for putting your own situation out there like this so that others might be helped. People who maybe didn’t have the nerve to ask or who didn’t even know that they should be asking these questions. Just Thank you. Just a little. A little thanks. Okay. So I’m just going to hit you and we’re just going to go after as many of these as we can, okay?

Shadeen [00:06:33] Let’s do it.

Jameela [00:06:34] So the first one is. I’m newly queer and I love my partner but struggle to see her in a sexual way. What can I do?

Shadeen [00:06:44] First of all, Hi. Welcome. I think that folks sort of assume that as we shift into a new orientation, that that’s automatically going to make an entire population of people just like suddenly appealing to you. And it may be a different way. Maybe this is not that person for you. And I know that might be a difficult thing to hear. Right. But you might be in a relationship where you’re still exploring who you connect well with. And this might be a person that you have maybe a lot of compatibility with on one level, but you might not have sexual chemistry with. So if you still have room to explore, I would invite you to maybe have a conversation with this person about the sorts of things that each of you are attracted to, or the certain things that turn each of you on make you feel good. And as you go through that exploration, it might become more apparent to you whether or not the two of you have whatever that thing that it is that you’re looking for that says, yes, I want you.

Jameela [00:07:52] Mm hmm. Yeah. There’s there’s so much value in having that conversation. I remember in my boyfriend, I’ve been together for a long time, so you have to have those conversations and update and just make sure that everyone’s still fancying everyone. And at one point years ago, he was like, So he was like I love you and I find you funny. He was like, But the old man Indian voice because I can’t pick up on cues. I can’t tell when someone’s trying to have sex with me. And so he’s like, Maybe if you sense a vibe, don’t do your old man Indian voice that you do that don’t do that character. Because that’s not especially hot. Like, maybe just try to read the signals and then don’t go into panic comedy. And I was like ah helpful.

Shadeen [00:08:36] Helpful feedback.

Jameela [00:08:37] Yeah. So Sandeed is not allow to come out when I’ve gotten a sign that somebody is getting turned on.

Shadeen [00:08:45] Yeah it might not be. I mean, that could for someone be you know, that might be someone’s exact desired, you know.

Jameela [00:08:53] But that would be a little bit worrying not to yuck someone’s yum.

Shadeen [00:08:55] But not for your but not for your particular partner.

Jameela [00:08:57] But that’s jungle fever, partner. Yeah.

Shadeen [00:09:00] It’s not. Not your particular partner. And so, you know, for the prison asking this question, you know, I don’t know that you necessarily have a little Indian voice that you do with people, that you pick out with your partner. If you do, you might want to reflect on that. But yeah, to to just check in in the same way that, you know, when folks are exploring identity and, you know, sometimes the stereotype, you know, especially in like high school or like college is like people are like worried that, oh, because you’re into women, you must be attracted to all women or men do this a lot where it’s like, oh, because you’re gay, do you secretly have the hots for me? And it’s like, you’re not going to be actually attracted to every person, even if they are great people, even if they are attractive people. And so to give yourself permission, as you are newly exploring this identity, to just like what you like.

Jameela [00:09:51] And and I think it’s really valuable that you were saying that this is maybe not the right person for you or maybe you need to have a conversation or maybe polyamory, you know, which we kind of touched on earlier. Maybe perhaps that’s an avenue in which you are able to still maintain certain facets of a relationship, but seek the parts that you don’t feel fulfilled in elsewhere in a loving, consensual way. Who knows? But thank you for that.

Shadeen [00:10:16] Sure yeah. And that’s a whole other journey. So one one at a time. When one new identity development at a time.

Jameela [00:10:24] This next question is very interesting. How do I reconcile the difference between how I want to be treated in life versus the bedroom?

Shadeen [00:10:35] Mm hmm. I love this question.

Jameela [00:10:38] I love this question.

Shadeen [00:10:40] Love it love it love it. So when I talk with folks about sex, sex is an opportunity for sensory pleasure.

Jameela [00:10:48] Mm hmm.

Shadeen [00:10:50] Now in the context of a lot of our lives, a lot of that stuff isn’t especially especially pleasurable. Right. I wash a lot of dishes. I’m a make the bed everyday kind of girl, right? That like, there’s a lot of things that I do that aren’t especially pleasurable. Sex is often a time that we dedicate to experiences of pleasure. And so the gift in that is that they don’t actually have to look anything like the rest of your life. Right. Sex is an opportunity for you to experience things that might not come your way otherwise. And I think that’s the beauty of fantasy. I think that’s the beauty of especially this becomes very explicit in in the land of kink, right. Where you you are intentional about creating scenes because you probably end up in circumstances that don’t just spontaneously fall from the sky. They need a little bit of planning, but also thinking about all the folks who are into role play, right, or power exchange, right. There’s so much opportunity for you to do things that feel good, even if they don’t look like what you do from 9 to 930.

Jameela [00:12:00] I’ve heard a lot of my friends talk about this in kind of very safe spaces in which they kind of like almost shyly will admit to the rest of us that, you know, they are a really strong feminist and they want power and they want control and they want to be ahead of the game and they want to be in charge and leaders. But they would like to be extremely, extremely submissive in the bedroom. And it makes them feel as though they’re, you know, doing feminism wrong as if there’s something wrong with them, as if they have some sort of like unhealthy attitude towards sex. And they really do struggle to deal with that dominant submissive chasm.

Shadeen [00:12:45] Hmm.

Jameela [00:12:45] So could you speak specifically to that? That’d be really interesting.

Shadeen [00:12:49] Sure. I think that there’s this misunderstanding that what you do during the day is every aspect of who you are. And so sex gives us an opportunity also to experience other parts of ourselves that maybe we don’t actually have the opportunity to express. Right. So lots of people and I’ll be gendered a little bit about this just because I see this recurring trend in and along gender lines. So especially women are expected to kind of have a lot of things together, especially in terms of things like navigating a household, right. Sort of holding the emotional weight of their relationship or their families. Lots of women who are especially are like in business are working really hard to be taken seriously. And so they are, you know, tough and they’re firm or they’re in charge right, and all of that is wonderful, except they’re often aren’t enough spaces to express all of the other stuff. Right. This experience of I don’t have to think or plan this. I don’t have to manage or control this, this experience of I’m feeling very taken care of I’m feeling very seen and supported. I’m treated as soft or tender or fragile, but not in a way that is rooted in judgment, right. Or in a way that someone is is still seeing me as desirable and erotic, even though I’m not having to make all the things happen. Right. And I hear men often in the exact same experience wanting to feel held, wanting to feel less in charge, not wanting to necessarily be dominant or wanting to be dominant in a way that doesn’t reproduce some of these patriarchal ideas. Right. And so these exchanges sex gives us an opportunity to play kind of outside of the structures that we’ve created in our lives. But it’s not unusual for someone to say, like, I do that shit for work and I don’t want to do it for play.

Jameela [00:14:37] It’s also interesting how, you know, for at least 15, 20 years, I feel as though the conversation of men being dominated and having dominatrixes come and tell them what to do and tell them when they’re allowed to come and all these kind of different things. That’s hyper normalized. It’s it’s interesting how women are even able to evoke shame when they’re just going through a similar instinct to the man of like, I don’t want to take the reins.

Shadeen [00:15:03] All the time.

Jameela [00:15:03] I’d like sometimes to take the fucking reins now.

Shadeen [00:15:05] Yeah.

Jameela [00:15:06] And so I think that that’s yeah, I never see, you know, when men talk about it, they talk about it as being like it’s there’s less shame predominantly in the conversation around wanting a woman to dominate you. It’s just considered like very sexy and it’s the patent and the whips and whatever with there’s such a sexy culture around that gender flip. And yet around women, there’s something in women where there’s a kind of undertone of making women feel pathetic for wanting to be submissive. And so I think everyone wants to operate on a kind of spectrum flitting between dominance and submission in every area of that life. I don’t like making every fucking decision in my life. I would like for someone to fucking occasionally tell me what I should do. It’s really weird and hard that once you turn 18, your parents predominantly are just like, Well, hands off the wheel. Good luck out there. You know, it would be nice to have a bit more direction. And so, yeah, I was just thinking, that’s really interesting and I. I love your way of looking at that, and I love your way of explaining that you don’t need to reconcile these things because they’re already reconciled, that already parts of you just let it flow.

Shadeen [00:16:15] And I think we, we do have some very real tender spots as we think about sort of the larger kind of political stances that many of us hold. Right. And so we want to be. Many people want to be like good feminists, right. And thinking about sort of power exchanges and keeping things equitable and safe and fun. And so often when I am working with folks around this, they are worried, like, does that make me sort of a you know, a betrayer of my politics, right? If I’m like, I actually want him to make all the decisions in this way, right? I want him to be in charge. And so just giving yourself permission to like what you like, writing is a form of equity to be able to say, this works for me and to create a consensual relationship around that.

Jameela [00:17:01] Hundred percent. I think a lot of people are going to find that very helpful because this is really genuinely a truly growing trend. Next up, we have a question that makes me feel a little bit attacked.

Shadeen [00:17:14] Let’s do it.

Jameela [00:17:15] Makes me feel a little bit attacked. It feels a little bit like maybe I got drunk and wrote this in myself, which I didn’t, and I don’t drink, thank God. Can you imagine my personality if I also drank Jesus Christ or did coke or. Okay, so making sex into a joke is how my partner minimizes the impact of rejection. But it’s a turnoff to me. How do I discourage the joking and make the rejection less likely without removing his way of protecting himself? What a sensitive, wonderful question. Did my boyfriend write this in about me?

Shadeen [00:17:48] Well, we’re going to protect his anonymity here and keep it sort of hypothetical. So there’s beautiful awareness here. Right. It sounds like the partner knows that they do this. And at the very least, the person asking the question knows the why knows the why. And so it might be an ongoing process of reassuring against the thing that they are afraid of. For the things that come up and out of us kind of in reactive ways, especially when they feel self-protective. That is our way of trying to stay safe. And that means that we are probably in a state of kind of vigilance around like, am I okay? Is this going to be okay? And so the more that we can do to be creating contexts that feel safer, the less we will need some of these reactive coping strategies. So maybe initiations to sex need to shift. I don’t know what that might look like in specific through the context of these two people’s relationship, but some of the ways that that might look, especially if it’s like around potential rejection, maybe it’s about having really clear signals about when you’re a yes so that they don’t have to be wondering if this is going to go okay or if this is going to be right. If if, if. I am going to get rejected or not here. And there’s probably work for them to do around their experience of rejection. But that’s not your labor. That’s for them to take on. For the person asking this question, it would be talking some more about like, how can I make it really clear to you when I’m into this so that you don’t walk in sort of half in, half out trying to be like, I’m just kidding, unless you’re down.

Jameela [00:19:31] Yeah. Well do you remember? I don’t know if you remember this, but the first time we met, we did one of these, but it was on YouTube instead. And I was telling you about how in my relationship, because I can’t read cues at all.

Shadeen [00:19:44] Sleeve tug.

Jameela [00:19:45] So I tug. I tug his sleeve or he tugs my sleeve and that’s how

Shadeen [00:19:50] I remember

Jameela [00:19:50] That’s so sweet that you remember that. But yeah, that’s that’s how we are able to very clearly communicate in a way that won’t make us feel shy. And we don’t have to use our words. And then it’s less likely, less likely for, you know, my old man Sanjid to come out, you know, if I’ve been tugged, I know to put him away.

Shadeen [00:20:05] Yeah.

Jameela [00:20:06] And so that.

Shadeen [00:20:07] Sanjid doesn’t need to come to your rescue.

Jameela [00:20:09] No and any of our friends who we’ve told about that have actually found that you know, who also may be like you know struggle to read the read the room have found that quite handy. So maybe you will too, maybe you could do a little tug of clothes that goes like, hello, I am a sure thing. Are you interested? But I absolutely identify with someone who probably makes a joke to minimize. I’m sure that that comes from their own history of rejections that felt humiliating. And that’s because we as a society don’t know how to take rejection. And we’re also not amazing handing out rejection, especially when we’re young.

Shadeen [00:20:42] And it’s painful, right? We’re wired first for survival and then for connection. So experiences of rejection really hit us really, really deep in our nervous system wiring, especially when we don’t have, as you’re naming like, enough support for how to navigate those painful moments. Most of us are just left alone in them, which makes it worse. And so to have this bridge that we’re talking about here, ways to signal to this person that like, No, you are safe and you are welcome. And even if I might not always want to be sexual when you want to be sexual, I’m still here. I still love you, I still care about you. I still find you attractive. I’m still desiring you. Right. But signals that you can offer that are reassurances to this person so that they don’t have to put up this front or performance. You know, comedy usually gets gets away with it, but it keeps us from really connecting in a vulnerable or intimate way. And so we’re just trying to find more opportunities for vulnerability so we can build the intimacy that allows us to feel safer.

Jameela [00:21:49] 100%. And noted.

Shadeen [00:21:51] Now that was for you. Thanks for asking that question.

Jameela [00:21:59] Not James. Okay, so someone has asked me how common is it to have happy sex free relationships?

Shadeen [00:22:08] Oh. Yeah. I mean, it’s super common when both people are having the same amount of sex as they want. And that includes not having more sex than they want. I had sex free means different things to all sorts of different people. You get to decide how much or little sex counts as sex free. But if that is in alignment with but with what both people want. People are incredibly happy about it, especially when it is explicit. Like it hasn’t just sort of happened that way because often we sort of have some level of vigilance or questioning or I’m like, Is this actually okay for my partner? But when we have talked about what we do want, what we don’t want, and we’re both pretty much like, Yeah, I’m good. We can be incredibly happy, especially if we continue to tune back into what feels good to both of us, rather than tracking against what sort of these arbitrary messages are about what we should be doing. Because everyone is not having enough sex or having too much sex. Depending on what you’re listening to, what you’re reading, who gave you the information. So ultimately, it just keeps going back to like, are we happy with the choices that we make? And if not, how do we adjust? But if yes, then we just get to live in it.

Jameela [00:23:33] It’s interesting to hear that that’s common because so much of I think what a lot of people hear, you know, especially as you get older and you start to hang around couples. I mean, sometimes that happens when all the couples are in the room together, which is like fuckin dicey, dicey territory where people just, you know, after a few drinks start talking about, you know, how often they have sex and, and, uh, it’s like once a week is normal or several times a week or every day. And everyone’s like, what? You know? But I was recently in one of those scenarios where one of my friends decided to jokingly volunteer that his wife was had presented as a blowjob enthusiast when they were dating. But that didn’t turn out to be true when they got married. And I was like, beep beep, reverse reverse out of this conversation. Get me out. Of this room. This isn’t going to go well. That was an overshare. But I do think that there is so much conversation. We see it in the movies. It’s like, Well, they don’t have sex anymore. We’re not having sex anymore. And of course, that can be a problem, especially if, as you say, there is an imbalance where one person would like to and they’re just denied that because the other person doesn’t. But but it’s interesting to know that a mutual decision to not have sex with each other, but still stay together and be very, very happy is common. I didn’t know that.

Shadeen [00:24:53] Yeah. I mean, the couples who are happy are the couples who, again, remove themselves from these abstract random judgments because you’ll never win.

Jameela [00:25:04] So arbitrary.

Shadeen [00:25:05] Right, they’re completely arbitrary and they’re not made for you. So you’ll never win. Right. The couples who are happy do what works for them, and they protect their relationship against the criticism of others who are mostly commenting about what works for them, Right? If you say like we have sex once a week and you’re glad about that and your friends are like, Wow, every week. Damn, that’s so much that like they’re talking about what works for them in their relationship or what works for them on their bodies, right? That’s not an actual message or messaging or information for you that is about them. So if you are happy with your choices, whatever they are, and they work for you and your partner, that is a thing that people are striving towards. And so if you have that, celebrate that and if you’re not quite there yet, see if there are ways for you to continue to have loving and compassionate conversations with each other until we find a place that feels good enough for both of us.

Jameela [00:26:15] Well, we have another question that’s kind of in the same family of that, but different and really fucking hard. It must have been a difficult thing to write. Someone said I had a baby seven months ago and feel that my partner is so put off by my body and never initiate sex. What am I doing wrong?

Shadeen [00:26:31] Hmm. Yeah.

Jameela [00:26:32] I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong.

Shadeen [00:26:35] Yeah. And I want us to just. I mean, some questions. The feelings are more obvious in the way that they’re written. And I hope that for anyone who submitted a question or hears their own story reflected in the question that you also hear and know that we have so much empathy and compassion for the experiences that led to all of these questions, all of these curiosities, because I think most of us ask questions that are ultimately asking, Am I normal? Am I good enough? Am I worthy? Am I deserving? Am I lovable? Am I okay? Will things be okay? And so I just want you to know that we hear you and that we see you in that. I think there might be an assumption here. I don’t know this person or their partner. When things change, especially when there have also been like big body changes, we often fill in the gaps if we haven’t had conversations and so we fill them and usually it’s with un unkind, unkind judgments. Right. So it sounds like sex is different, maybe less frequent. There might be a difference in approach, and the meaning that has been made thus far is they must be disgusted by me. Right. They must be turned off by my body. They must be not into me anymore.

Jameela [00:28:07] And their, from. Talking to my friends who’ve kind of gone through similar things, especially recently, feels like there’s just been an explosion of people having babies in the last two years. Sometimes some of my male friends have expressed to me that they feel like she’s got so much on their plate and they’re doing all these things that they don’t want to like. They feel like they’re bothering her for sex. They’re kind of seeing her in this new light where she’s like constantly breastfeeding and not sleeping enough and not getting to do all the things that they need for them. And so they just feel like a bit of a weird sex pest. Than bothering this woman who’s gone through this huge thing. And then there have been other cases in which sometimes friends who’ve had babies when their body changes, they have such a problem with their body changing, but then that also alters their behavior or the way that they talk about it. And so that’s just something to be mindful of. But. It’s extremely upsetting, the idea that if your body changes because you’ve had a baby, your partner would reject you for that. And I really hope that’s not what this boils down to be you. Because nobody does. Nobody deserves that. That’s that’s not right.

Shadeen [00:29:17] No, of course not. Right. And so I just want to start knowing that we don’t have all the information. I just want us to start with some curiosity in that place. Right. That unless this person has indicated that to you pretty explicitly, I would love for us to leave room for that to not be true, even if it’s how you feel, right. That I don’t want us to speak for this person and where even in this moment we’re saying that there could be all sorts of scenarios. I hear a lot. You know, Jameela, you had named like folks not wanting to be a pest. I also hear a lot that for people who partner with someone who has given birth, that they are often like afraid, right? They are worried like, oh, especially for folks who have had things like C-sections. Right. Or any I mean, having a baby is a pretty invasive process. Right. But they’re not really sure, like, how do we do this now? We just had nine or ten months where your body was, again, very different. Right. And so what does our sex life look like now? How do I approach how to initiate what feels good to you here? Like, are are you okay? Are you well? And so being able to again check in with your partner. Hey, I would I would love for us to spend more time together. I’d love to reconnect. I would love to have more sex. I want to get fucked. Like whatever actually makes sense for you to say to your partner in this conversation for them to know, like, Hey, I still want you and I want to feel wanted by you. Like, how do we create some more sexy opportunities for us, right? Because. You’re putting a lot into another person’s life. Right you just had a baby. There’s so much that goes into just creating an environment, let alone all the tasks that come with parenting. Right. And so sometimes we also just need a new context, even if it’s a temporary one, for us to have a clearer access to sex. So that might be getting some someone to step in to take care of the baby for a little while. Couple hours. Right. It might mean that you switch out of your bedroom and that’s the place that has sort of become, you know, nursing 101, you know, or home base. But just thinking about how do we find opportunities to reconnect. But I really do think that it starts with a conversation. Because when we don’t talk, we fill the space with stories and unfortunately, the kinds of storytellers we are. We like to create psychological thrillers and horror stories. We very rarely create like, you know, fantasies that like where, you know, we are princesses who get to live this just like safe cartoon adventure, right? Usually we put ourselves through some pretty gnarly stuff. And it might not be how your partner feels at all.

Jameela [00:32:05] Mm. That’s really beautifully put. It’s very striking how many questions we have about maybe not specifically this, but specifically how many people are concerned that they’re not having sex enough and they don’t know why. I mean, I’m looking at truly 20 questions in a row that are of the same thing. And I partially wonder if that’s pandemic related, lockdown related. You know, are seeing a lot more of our partners, maybe, you know what I mean? Like seeing each other in sweatpants for longer. The mental health challenges of the last two and a half years, the sort of some people have found the idea of getting sick, very stressful, and they feel very fearful and they don’t want to go out and date and do the things that sometimes can. I don’t know, refresh the way that you look at a partner. Sometimes getting out of your home and seeing each other in a new context or seeing other people look at your partner, like whatever, all those different things. A lot of that got taken away from us. And so there are a huge amount of people who are saying that they are not having sex anymore. Some I mean, that they’re using caps when they say a long time and they’re asking if their relationship is doomed. I doubt you’re going to say yes.

Shadeen [00:33:27] Yeah. No, I’m not. I’m not though I.

Jameela [00:33:31] And more specifically, just to add to that, like as to whether or not that’s normal, how to work out of a dry spell without shame for either person is another question I’d love you to answer.

Shadeen [00:33:41] Yeah. So I’m not going to start by saying your relationship is doomed. I’m going to say all of the other things. But the thing that I’m going to say right off of the bat is also that if you are in a position where you are unhappy. And you and this other person have exhausted all of the options you are willing to try in order to make things different. I also want you to give yourself permission to make other choices. Because I sometimes hear this conversation and folks actually know what they want. They are just it’s hard to make to make decisions like this. Right. A lot of the times as part of these conversations, we get to a point where folks can admit, like, they’re a great person, and I’m. I’m actually done. We don’t actually have to just stay if we’re not getting what we want or need and the other person isn’t invested in working on that with us. So I want to clear the air with that right up front so that you know, that you still have room to make choices. So. Returning to the context of the question of like we haven’t had sex in a long, long time, we are in a dry spell. How do we work our way out of it? I’m going to say something that’s going to be kind of controversial, and I invite you to stick with me.

Jameela [00:34:59] Well your voice just got lower so now I’m.

Shadeen [00:35:00] Yeah.

Jameela [00:35:01] I’m ready.

Shadeen [00:35:01] It’s. It’s serious. It’s my serious voice.

Jameela [00:35:03] Should I also do it?

Shadeen [00:35:03] Yeah. This is how we’re going to go. That’s how you know that we mean it. Hit me. I want you to schedule it. I left a pause for gasps and reactions of horror. Folks are really anti scheduling, right, because we have this introduction to sex that sex is supposed to be spontaneous and sex is supposed to be, you know, driven by passion and this like insatiable craving for another person’s genitals rubbing on your body and. I mean, that’s not necessarily how sex works for a lot of us. That’s how we saw sex first or learned about sex first. That might have represented our early sexual experiences or the beginning of our relationship, But we forget that how much of that early passion and intensity excitement was just an unconscious plan.

Jameela [00:35:58] I’ve also got a theory about that.

Shadeen [00:36:00] Go ahead. I want to hear it.

Jameela [00:36:01] When people when people like at the beginning, that sort of insatiable shagging that happens, I’m sure part of it is because of the novelty of this new person also attracted to. But I was saying to another to a friend the other day, you know, who was in that period, I was like, I wonder if partially we so, like relentlessly rabbit our way through the early days because we feel a lot of things, but it’s, you know, it’s embarrassing or stigmatized or, you know, inappropriate perhaps. You know, I mean, inverted commas for some of these things. But to say how you feel about someone, you’d be like, I fucking think I love you or I’d like you so much. I like you so much. You can’t tell them as often as you’re thinking it. So you just shag it, You shag you don’t say it. You shag it. Do you know what I mean?

Shadeen [00:36:47] I have a necklace that says Fuck your feelings. But, like, not in like that. But not in, like a feelings don’t matter.

Jameela [00:36:53] Dismissive way yeah.

Shadeen [00:36:54] Right. It’s a it’s literally a vibrator necklace. And I had it customized to say, Fuck your feelings.

Jameela [00:37:00] Oh that’s amazing.

Shadeen [00:37:00] So there is room for that, right? There are lots of things that we feel. And sex is one of the ways that we can act it out.

Jameela [00:37:08] Yeah. And just to just like, finish the thought. It’s also that I feel as though once we start being able to tell someone like, I fucking love you, I love you so much, I love you, I love you, I love you, then, then traditionally I’ve noticed, like in my relationships or my friends relationships, the sex starts to slow down a little bit. It’s like, Oh, you finally have another way you can express yourself and you’re allowed to say it so you don’t have to shag it. It’s nice to find a balance, if that’s your thing.

Shadeen [00:37:33] Right. And, you know, in in all of that right these times and we’re usually seeing people and having what seems like completely spontaneous, unplanned sex. I mean, a lot of the times you knew you were going to have sex with them later. Right. You’ve been planning this date for a week, right? And you were your cute underwear, right? Or you like brush your teeth or you knew you were going out to dinner or you have kind of a routine established. Right. There are ways in which we continue to prep and prime ourselves for the possibility of being sexual, even if you’re like, Well, I totally wasn’t planning. Well, maybe they might have been.

Jameela [00:38:09] Yeah. Bringing it back to dating is always my favorite way that you are able to remind people that, like, the sex was not spontaneous at the beginning. Like you were making plans.

Shadeen [00:38:19] Right. You were. You were planning it and.

Jameela [00:38:21] You’re more hygenic than you’ve ever been the most hygienic days of your life.

Shadeen [00:38:25] Right? You were you you were putting some some calculated thought and effort into it. Likely. And so as relationships go on, whether that’s six months or six years or 60 years. Right. That we have other priorities also. And even if sex is still super important to us when we find ourselves having gone through a dry spell, there usually was some disruptor in that early process or some intentional structural change that moved us out of whatever our previous sexual routines were. And so we have to find a way back and imagining that, you know, sex is just spontaneously going to fall from the sky. You’re probably going to be waiting a really long time. And even when it does happens, there’s no guarantee for when it’s going to happen again. And that doesn’t actually make us feel any more comfortable or any more open to our partners. Right. We feel a lot of shame. We feel a lot of disappointment. We feel some anticipatory rejection. We often feel levels of like of self-disgust, right. Or we assume that the other person feels disgusted by us. And so for us to you’re you’re going to get tired of me telling you to talk about it. But talk about sex is better when you talk about it, I promise. If the two of you are able to say, like, Hey, we want to do this and let’s actually protect time for it, or let’s set up a scenario, a situation that’s actually really fun or erotic, right? That can be good foreplay or make us feel more comfortable or at least get us in the headspace where we can be ready for sex. Right? That if you have a really busy life or a busy schedule, if you know, okay, at 4:45 p.m. on Friday, we’re going to be having sex, or at least we’re going to have time available so that if we decide we want to have sex with it, we can. It gives you an opportunity to like, get all the other stuff off of your plate and out of your mind, right. That if you’re the kind of person that’s distracted by like I have loads of laundry to do, if you know that it’s coming on Friday, coming on Friday, that maybe you maybe you get your laundry done on Wednesday.

Jameela [00:40:34] Yeah.

Shadeen [00:40:35] Maybe you do all of the things that allow you to be present and ready so that you’re not putting so much pressure on yourselves to cut through all of the distractions and all of the stresses to magically be aroused and vulnerable and ready. At the exact same time.

Jameela [00:40:56] Well, it’s interesting you say this, cause you’re like, Oh, you’re going to get sick of me talking about conversation. We have a different kind of question around talking that I think is really interesting where someone says how to talk about consent. I’m asking the guy a lot if it’s okay and he finds it annoying, but I want to be sure. Fucking fascinating question. I remember getting annoyed with a roommate I had years ago. Her boyfriend. The whole time they were fucking and we had like paper thin walls because we were just like there was like five of us in the house was living on top of each other. And that’s all you could hear in the other room was, are you ok? Are you okay. You okay? Are you okay? And then she would find it annoying and start to like hear the bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep of of like her putting the volume up on her laptop, and you’d hear the music start to play, and then suddenly you’d hear. Bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep bleep, bleep. Where he’s now turn the volume down because he’s going so that I can’t hear if you’re okay. And and one time I was 22, I snapped, screamed for my room. I was like, she’s fucking fine. And I now look back on that moment with immense regret. Don’t worry, everyone. That was none of my business I interrupted the conversation around consent, but that this reminds me of that, where perhaps some people don’t want to be asked constantly. But I really appreciate this question.

Shadeen [00:42:22] Yeah.

Jameela [00:42:23] Please tackle it because I’m absolutely stumped.

Shadeen [00:42:25] Yeah, I and I also really appreciate how committed folks are often in these relationships to making sure that they’re exercising consent, even if the way that they do it doesn’t quite work for their partners. I mean, but phones folks are often not just like interested or are concerned. A lot of times this repetition is fear driven. I’m I’m very afraid I have anxiety about the risk of harming you.

Jameela [00:42:56] Absolutely. And I also think that there’s an element of not really perhaps recognizing that you’re not giving your partner enough trust and agency. Perhaps. And I don’t think that that comes from a bad place. But also it, you know, part of my responsibility, especially as someone who, you know, is a trauma survivor, sexual assault survivor, I really had to learn how to advocate for myself, not just for me, but also so that my partner doesn’t cross the line or feel like they have to constantly check if they’re crossing a line. Like I had to learn for our sake collectively to make sure that I know my boundaries and that I will draw my boundaries, you know? And that’s the same conversationally. It’s the same in every areas like we have to we need people to be clear so that we don’t have to keep asking. It’s a two way street.

Shadeen [00:43:50] And so here’s the here is a version of that consent conversation that you might have to keep you from getting into this place. So the question that I mean it’s two questions that you’re going to ask each other is when things are good and you can use whatever word to signify good here, right? Pleasurable, hot, whatever, when things are good. What will I see or hear from you? When things are not good. Insert whatever word you want to use for not good. Right? What will I see or hear from you? That way, we don’t have to keep returning necessarily to that one question if it doesn’t work for you. Is that good. Is that good. You okay? You all right? How’s that? Right, if that gets you out of the moment or out of sort of the headspace that you want or need to be in to enjoy the experience, we can learn more about each other up front, and that can be a conversation that you revisit or check back in on. But what will I see or hear from you so that they also have other ways of checking that don’t require a lot from you, right? That if when things are good for you, you go quiet and close your eyes. It would be good for your partner to know that because on somebody else, that could be a sign that things are not going well. And now they’re nervous. And so every time you’re trying to lean into pleasure, they’re thinking that you’re dissociating or bracing for something. And so that will also challenge you to get clear on your signs and signals. But it’s the kind of information that allows us to both stay present, because I’m sure it’s distracting for your partner to be wondering where you are in a moment and trying to over navigate your boundaries for you. And so if they kind of have have their own map or their own little guidebook for what for what that looks like on your end, it keeps you from having to feel very responsible for the constant reassurances while they can still check in.

Jameela [00:46:01] Yeah, there’s a difference between just talking and communicating, you know. And so I think that’s that’s the difference. Someone else has written in a question that again, I think, you know, especially in the rise of the app Field, which is kind of a more sex based app and in the rise of polyamory and more people kind of getting out there and having more casual sex. I’ve actually heard this come up a few times amongst my friends who are dating. So someone’s written in saying, I have HSV two, which is a type of herpes and feel like I’ll never have sex again. Now that’s all they’ve written. So it kind of feels like quite a despondent uh, and distressed sentiment.

Shadeen [00:46:54] Mm.

Jameela [00:46:55] I don’t know anything about HSV two or herpes or STDs. So this is over to you.

Shadeen [00:47:03] Yeah. My numbers aren’t up to date, but please know that it is in the millions of people in this country who have been diagnosed with any form of STI. You are not the only person who has an STI that will be chronic. And all sexually transmitted infections are manageable. They can all be managed. What this person is communicating more, I think, than the the physical health bit is maybe the societal stigma or the shame. I think knowing that there are entire populations and communities of folks who not only have the same diagnosis, but have had the same feeling and have moved through it. One thing I would really invite is to start to shift into more community spaces that are open and accepting of you. Right. Diagnosis or not. So that could be communities of folks who have herpes. This could be communities that are just more open and accepting, period. But knowing that a change in your health status does not disqualify you from romantic or sexual partnership, Right. It just might mean that there might be another layer of conversation when we’re talking about sexual health. Right. And yeah, there are going to be some people who are shaming, right. Who interact with you based on stigma that actually has nothing to do with you and has everything to do with their own sexual health information, their own sexual boundaries, the things that they’ve learned.

Jameela [00:48:55] Yeah, there is an ignorance there. I mean, I have an ignorance. I wouldn’t know what to say or think or do if a sexual partner said that to me, I would probably then just immediately go on the Internet and find out how it it’s contagious or how to avoid catching the same thing. Do you know anything about this STD, or is that a subject I should take up more with a gynecologist?

Shadeen [00:49:15] I mean, yes. So herpes, when you are having an active outbreak, is the most likely to spread at that time. Right? What we would be talking about would be like viral shedding. Right. So we upon contact. Right? We in. What’s the word I’m looking for? Transmission can happen, particularly when folks are in.

Jameela [00:49:40] Like, symptomatic.

Shadeen [00:49:42] Yeah. Right. When. When folks are. When folks have sores. Right. Those are going to be times where transmission rates are higher. I mean, we have been having a lot of these conversations more and more over the last couple of years. Given that there has been a global pandemic, it has challenged us to think about what does it mean for us to live in a world where we are acutely aware that. We could be exposed to things that can be transmitted. Right. And so when folks are having an active period of outbreak, right when they are going through viral shedding, they are going to be most contagious. Right. And so for you to be thinking about ways in which we can be sexual with each other that acknowledges each person’s capacity for risk. There are some folks who are not super concerned. Right. And then there are going to be.

Jameela [00:50:36] And so if you’r enot having a flare up you’re less likely to be contagious.

Shadeen [00:50:38] Less likely. Mm hmm. Right. So there are going to be folks who say, you know what, it if I if I get herpes, it actually doesn’t matter a ton to me because everything can be managed. There are antivirals that you can take, right. That lower the risk of transmission to partners. Right? Significantly. And so it’s important for us to think about what our actual degree of of risk is in our relationships. Right. How much you actually care about transmission. And I know that that is that can feel like a hard burden when you are the person who is on the receiving end of stigma. But it’s important to know that. People have herpes and have great sex. People have herpes and have great relationships. People are able to have sex and not get things that they are not willing to experience. There are tons of barrier methods. Again, there are antiviral treatments. So, no, there’s not a cure. But there are so many ways for us to successfully manage our sexual health individually and with our relationships such that they these don’t have to be sexual death sentences, as we are often afraid or told that they are right, most of our sex sex ed was wrapped around like don’t get an STI and don’t get pregnant because both of those things would be the end of your world. And I. We know much better than that, at least from a medical or a sexual health standpoint that you are still deserving and available for amazing sex and a great partnership. You’re not a risk to your partners, but it does mean that we might need to have different kinds of sexual health conversations than we would have before. Not because you have it HSV, but because it does act as a real reminder that these are probably the conversations we should have been having anyway, right around what works for your body, What works for my body, What kind of barrier methods do we want to use? Right. Like when was your last sexual health screening and what were the results? Right. We don’t tend to like to have those conversations, but those are important to have. And in this position it will make you feel differently accountable to maybe having conversations that have been uncomfortable or unfamiliar to you in the past. But there are entire populations of people who are still into you. Right. I know that you’re afraid that it has limited your pool. It just means we have to have different kinds of conversations.

Jameela [00:53:12] Just add a bit of nuance. Thank you for that. Our next question is heavy. At least I found it heavy. And it brought up all kinds of feelings of anger and me that might be misplaced. So someone said, What do you do if your husband tells you he wants to have sex with thinner women or have threesomes? The second part of that does not offend me, but the first part. I don’t like much.

Shadeen [00:53:38] Mmhmm.

Jameela [00:53:39] But it’s not my place to judge. And so, over to you Shadeen, so I don’t do something bad.

Shadeen [00:53:49] Let me also be clear with some of the biases that exist in my work. So while I’m a sex therapist, my work has to take into consideration the context. And I feel very invested in social justice as a frame for my work. And so that is often part of why people seek me out. So my answer here is not going to be maybe neutral in the way that folks might expect. Fat phobia and fat antagonism is a part of a larger system of oppression, right? Ties directly into ableism has strong roots in sexism, and its origin story comes from racism. And so is this policing of people’s bodies and body size, to me is not neutral, even as we hold at the same time that everyone will have things that they are into and a lot of our sexual interests, or I’ll use the word loosely here, sexual preferences are not politically sound. Right. But they are politically informed. Right. So people who might say I’m just not into insert X identity or X group of people. Right. That even if your body doesn’t give a shit about your politics. Right. And that’s what you are aroused by. It is informed by larger systems. And so I think that it’s still important for us to be willing to explore and critique that. And so in the context of this question for someone saying like, what do I do if my partner says that they want to have sex with thinner women? I mean, you get to feel about that however you feel about it. I imagine that can’t feel very good. Right. The piece about threesomes, I mean how do you feel about threesomes. And while we don’t have agency or control over other people’s bodies, when we form a relationship, we do make agreements about what is within our boundaries and outside of it. And if your partner is saying I want something that is outside of your boundaries, we get to say no. And there might be relationship consequences about that. But it is important for us to honor the realities of our boundaries. And if that is not a place that you are willing to explore or in the way that it is presented, doesn’t feel like it is very honoring to you or your relationship in the meanwhile, it probably is not going to be an experience that makes your relationship better if every person that they are looking at you are hearing it as an extension of, you know, a critique of you right, a proof that you are not enough in some way. Right. And so I imagine that that will be an ongoing conversation. You know, if I was working with the two of you, the invitation would be for him to explore like what it is that he is asking for from you. And the invitation for you is to hold on to your sense of self-worth. And in that to honor the reality of your boundaries, even as you might want to please this person and make them happy or reactively shut it down because they’ve made you not feel good. But for you to stay true to, okay, how do I genuinely feel about this, even if it’s messy and complicated? And to take whatever actions happen after that slowly. Right. This is not a place for for quick reaction. Right. This sounds like it. It was probably painful and stirred up some stuff and there might be some sitting with that might need to happen before we make a move.

Jameela [00:57:38] It also I mean it because it’s written in quick succession. I, I would hope that the wanting of threesomes from the husband, extremely blunt husband, is linked to a way to be able to have sex with thinner women. And are they deliberately bringing in a women into that threesome. That doesn’t necessarily feel amazing for current partner. This is very, very delicate. It’s really tricky territory. And, uh.

Shadeen [00:58:14] Yeah. I mean, ultimately for me on some level and I actually think we had we had said it together once upon a time, but it is a through line in my work. I really invite people to stay committed to the idea that I have sex with people who want to have sex with me. Right. And bringing in another party to try and like bridge you know what you don’t feel like you’re getting from me but want from other, from someone else I actually don’t think is a great strategy for our relationships. Right. That’s prob if that weren’t you know and I know that might have just been how it was for raising the question. But if what the, the impetus of the threesome is is that this person wants to have sex with someone who is thinner than you and that is a thing that doesn’t feel good to you, then the sex that you have together is also not going to be good. And from there then kind of what is the point. Right. Like why agree to something that just continues to feel bad. And so the, the invitation again is that as we explore what this means and what this looks like and how we do this, whatever we choose to do in a way that is mutually pleasurable if this person is invested in having sexual experiences. I want to say this carefully. If this person is invested in having sexual experiences that do not represent you or do not include you in some way, right. If if their investment is I want to have sex with someone that is different from you because there is something about you that I’m unwilling to accept. Right. I want. I would love for you to consider if that is the relationship that feels honoring of the fullness of who you are.

Jameela [01:00:02] Mmhmm. That’s beautifully as ever. Because I want someone to feel wanted. I do. I can’t. I can’t bear the idea of someone feeling that way or being made to feel that way. It’s just not. It’s not nice. It’s not helpful to anyone’s feeling of being sexy or being sexual. And so whoever you are, you deserve to be wanted and you deserve to be with someone who wants you as as you are.

Shadeen [01:00:31] And I’ve said it a few times in our conversation. I think it’s important to hear because we get this wrong all the time. That also isn’t about you. Right. Like, if your partner says, I want to have sex with thinner people than you, We heard all sorts of things about us in that, didn’t we? Right. That’s actually not about you. It involves you, and it impacts you whatever it is that they are working out. In their own politics, in their own relationship to bodies. Right. That again, impacts you, but isn’t about you. And the longer we stay in positions where we are using other people’s expressed desires, wants or needs as messages about us, the worse we are going to feel about ourselves. Right. So this is not actually a commentary on the size of your body. But it is calling that up in the ways that whatever he is asking for is being framed. And if it becomes clear to you that this person does not make room to see and experience your body as delightful, as sexy, as pleasurable, then that might not be the relationship that you deserve.

Jameela [01:02:00] Well, I think we handled that as calmly as we could have. All right. I have one final question for you. Just because it keeps

Shadeen [01:02:10] OK

Jameela [01:02:10] it’s come up again and again and again and. It’s not so much been phrased as a question, so I guess we’ll figure out the question. But a lot of people are struggling with vaginismus. And I don’t know if it’s just that people are talking about it more or if there is a rise in it. But I’m hearing that so much in the last three years. Can you tell me what vaginismus is and. What are some kind of like action someone can take if they’re struggling with it.

Shadeen [01:02:45] Mm hmm. So vaginismus is the term kind of broad term that we use to describe the ways in which your body might protect itself from penetration. So we mostly talk about this for bodies, people with vulvas. Right. So. There are lots of ways in which we talk a lot about vaginal penetration, and this is about tightening of the vaginal opening during penetration. Actually, a friend and colleague of mine, Dr. Patrick Grant, talks about bussinismus. Sort of the colloquial sort of gay community term for anal. Right. Or like the the actual anus is is bussy. Right. So a butt pussy kind of thing. Right. And so in his work, he talks about bussinismus. Right. So this is a this is an acknowledgment that everyone’s body can have the kind of tightness, automatic tightening that prevents penetration. Okay. So I just want to add that in there. But when we’re thinking about vaginismus, right, that this is incredibly painful, what happens is without consciously deciding to during or before penetration, your body tightens. Right. And while we do all this cultural dialoging about like tight pussies, blah, blah, blah, we actually need to be relaxed. Right. Tightness and tightening, especially when it is not being done intentionally, leads to nerve and tissue damage and is incredibly painful because your body effectively shuts down. Right. It says, No, I do not want this. And anything beyond that point is pain. And so when we see folks who are struggling with vaginismus, that’s the primary concern. Right? It’s this is excruciatingly painful. But the second and almost immediate concern is I’m scared for my relationship. People are often very worried about, well, if someone can’t put something inside my body that I’ll never have good sex. And so one thing that I want to say that I don’t think it’s said in this conversation enough is that there are lots of ways to have pleasurable sex. And so you might you and your partner might like or prefer or maybe have only done penetrative sex to this point. And so as you figure out what your body needs to feel less fearful during penetration. One of the ways that we can lessen the intensity or the anxiety around sex is to also create other avenues of sexual or just physical pleasure that do not require penetration, but do not also feel like a big dramatic loss. Right and that can mean anything. It could just be about touching. It could be about rubbing. It could be grinding. It could be oral. Sometimes folks can do some degrees of penetration like smaller penetrations or maybe not a full erect penis. Maybe it’s a finger, maybe it’s a tongue. Maybe it’s a small toy.

Jameela [01:06:02] I was talking to a friend the other day who told me that and I can’t speak to if this is true or not, but in France they regard all sexual acts as sex. So like oral sex or using your hands, etc. qualifies as sex, whereas it’s more of a sort of U.S., UK type thing or other countries thing where it’s not considered sex unless there is penetration. And I found something to be quite lovely about that because I’ve always felt like calling that stuff foreplay diminishes it somewhat when that, to me is the most intimate part of the sex that a lot of people have.

Shadeen [01:06:40] It totally can be. And so many people don’t have penetrative sex as part of their sex at all. And for so many people, it’s not the star of the sexual show.

Jameela [01:06:51] I mean, with all these abortion bans coming up, like, I imagine we’re going to see a real fast decline of.

Shadeen [01:06:56] There are lots of shifts that I do. Yeah. Yeah, right. But probably also there might also be an increase in some experiences like this around fear and pain. And so being able to acknowledge that for folks who are saying, okay, what do I do? Right. Again, a starting place I want to invite is just giving yourself permission to take some penetration off of the table. Right. And to expand what you consider sex and to center it around activities that are pleasurable. And if at this point in time, penetration is not pleasurable for both of you, regardless of what body parts you have, it’s not good for both of you, then it’s not good. And so we can call timeout on that piece and do other things that feel good. The clinical protocol goes in two parts. And I want to say this because folks are often intimidated about sort of seeking more support around something like Vaginismus. So there is typically a psychological right or psychosomatic component, and that’s usually worked through with a sex therapist. Right. And then there’s the physical body based bit. And you might still be working under sort of the larger supervision of a sex therapist, but they’re not going to do stuff to your body. You might be working with a gynecologist or urologist. A pelvic floor person often will see a lot of vaginismus clients.

Jameela [01:08:25] Oh yeah there there. There’s a.

Shadeen [01:08:27] Dilator.

Jameela [01:08:28] I was talking. Yeah, Dilator. Right. That is kind of like.

Shadeen [01:08:31] Yes.

Jameela [01:08:31] Of a variety of sizes. And you can find them and then you can, like, slowly in your own privacy.

Shadeen [01:08:37] Yes.

Jameela [01:08:38] Try them out. And it kind of goes expands in like a very slow way to.

Shadeen [01:08:41] So the high level protocol goes like this, right? That usually it works in tandem. So you would likely be working with some kind of therapist who will help you talk through like what is happening in your bodies or ways to relax and stay calm. Right. Because usually what happens is there’s a sense of panic and then your body shuts down. Sometimes this is an extension of trauma and it doesn’t have to be explicitly sexual trauma. Right? Your body is just wired to keep you safe and doesn’t really care what it’s keeping you safe from right. So your therapist would help you work through that and find other ways to settle, soothe, calm, or to de-escalate when you’ve gotten into a state where your body is shutting down. And then there’s the actual part where we practice and it’s outside of the partnered space because that’s a place that you graduate to. And just like you were describing earlier, Jameela, that there are tools called dilators like, some might look a little phallic, but most almost kind of look like little fingers of different thicknesses. Right. They have a flared base on the end and Right. You would be given clear guidance and an easy onramp, straightforward onramp to how you can teach your body to relax in real time to allow for more penetration because these are muscles. Right. And so we can build a different relationship, a different level of flexibility to our muscles. And so you would graduate from the smallest size to the biggest size. And that doesn’t mean it’s like this huge guard, you know, gargantuan size. Right. But it might move from something that is maybe about the size of like a your pinky finger to maybe something that might be the width of like two or three fingers. Right. So nothing super, super dramatic. And again, it would be really well-paced. Right? There’s no pressure, right? You’re not necessarily required to like, fuck yourself or anything. You just insert, right? You insert the dilator and you breathe and you let your body relax and know that it is safe and you are okay and you process the feelings and then you’re done. It’s done. You did your exercise for the day and it’s over. Right? And but to know that you don’t have to navigate this alone. Pain can be such an isolating experience. Folks are often afraid or ashamed to say anything. Please know that, number one, you are not alone. But two, there are so many things that can help, and there are people who are put in place specifically who love to help in this particular concern or particular area. And so I would encourage folks, first of all, thank you for naming it here. I would encourage folks that if you have access to any further kind of care, whether that’s therapeutic care or just the physical right to please let your providers know and to continue to date around your your providers until someone treats it with the level of care and compassion that you require. Right. That no one should be brushing this off. Paint your pain matters. And sex is supposed to be an opportunity for pleasure. And so if it is painful, right, that that absolutely matters. And you want to work with someone who treats that with care.

Jameela [01:12:12] I love you because of how much of an advocate you are for pleasure, for peace, for safety, and for respect both self respect and the respect we give to others. Please come back every day for the rest of your life. Thank you for getting through so many questions. We covered so many different topics and there are a billion more, I’m sure. So as ever, thank you for your wisdom and thank you for your time. And thank you for having such a soothing voice.

Shadeen [01:12:46] Thank you so much for having me.

Jameela [01:12:49] I always have the best time with you. I always learn so much and I take these episodes. I send them on to all of my friends. These are some of the most helpful episodes of my podcast, and I can’t tell you how much they mean to everyone, which is why everyone gets so excited every time you come back so.

Shadeen [01:13:02] I’m I’m so honored by that. So thank you for offering me that feedback. You know, this this is important. We don’t have a lot of spaces to have real conversation. And so I’m just happy to be a part of it. And I hope that there is one thing that anyone listening that can take, that they can take away, that would help them feel less alone and that would bring them just a little bit closer to peace or to pleasure.

Jameela [01:13:30] Thank you, Shadeen.

Shadeen [01:13:32] Thank you.