EP. 116 — Grace Campbell

Jameela [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil. I hope you’re well. I am really, really happy to hear how uplifting so many of you found last week’s episode with Gina. I’m. I’m pretty confident that there have to be moments of release and relief for all of us among all the shit that we hear for women, where we hear empowered women talk about their struggles, but also talk about how they’ve overcome them and to give us inspiration to carry on and to break new ground and to open doors for other women. And this week, I’m bringing you yet another dose of that same energy with such a fabulous guest, such an unusual woman. I’ve gotten to know her in the last six months and was so excited to have her on this podcast, because I think, you know, as I’m kind of suggesting, hers is the energy that we need currently. She is someone who has had such an interesting relationship with shame and who is kind of still finding her way out of it and talking us through that journey in this episode and just being so strikingly blunt about truly every thought in her head about some subjects. She says things in this episode that very few women especially, would feel safe to say publicly. And I rate her so much for it. And it’s why I find her to be such a fucking breath of fresh air. She is a comedian. She is an excellent, excellent writer. And I keep her book by my bedside table. It’s called Amazing Disgrace. Her name is Grace Campbell, and she is going to be one of your new favorite voices out there in the world. She’s fucking hysterical on Instagram, and she’s going to be performing a big comedy show at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival this August. So if you happen to be going there, check out Grace Campbell. But we talk about her trauma, her relationship with men, what that’s done to them, and also something that I feel like we don’t talk about enough, which is that sometimes even if we are out there being told to be fucking girl bosses and boss bitches and I don’t need a man and heteronormativity is so embarrassing and there’s nothing more embarrassing than being heterosexual. And, you know, we just want our girlfriends. We just need our girlfriends. I’m very here for all of that. But also sometimes some people just want a fucking boyfriend and we have to not completely exclude that conversation, I think from feminism, I think it’s okay and it doesn’t take anything away from you or your power as a feminist to also just want the love and comfort of maybe a man and Grace is a fucking phenomenal activist who’s worked for Scarlet Curtis. She’s one of my good friend who’s also been an exceptional guest on this podcast before. Go and check out her episode. But they’ve worked together with the pink protests to empower so many young women around the world and actually get involved in legislation towards protecting girls and women, especially in the UK. Grace is just, as I’ve said, a breath of fucking fresh air, and she has a fire and a confidence that makes you feel unbreakable when you’re listening to this episode, you might even find it a tiny bit jarring at times, and I challenge you to confront that in yourself. When she’s extremely confident or when she’s extremely blunt, I think she’s fucking cool and I’m really looking forward to hearing what you think of her and what you think of this episode. Go and show her love on Instagram by her book, Amazing Disgrace. Check out everything she’s done. I really think she’s going to be a lasting and powerful voice for women in this industry. And I can see the more I get to know her why so many young girls look up to her now, so enjoy the absolutely phenomenal Grace Campbell. It’s only Grace fucking Campbell.

Grace [00:04:30] Hello. Hi.

Jameela [00:04:31] Welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

Grace [00:04:33] I’m honored, to be honest.

Jameela [00:04:35] You’re wearing a little headset. Looks like the one that my boyfriend wears to to play Call of Duty when he’s really trying to cut me off.

Grace [00:04:44] I know, I feel like I really such a nerd. Like I could be

Jameela [00:04:47] Is this like a call center?

Grace [00:04:51] In a call center. Yeah. Basically, I just quickly got stressed out and went to my parents because I was like, I don’t have wired headphones. I haven’t done a podcast for ages. And so my mom just gave me this and it’s amazing sound quality, but I do that like I’m in a call center.

Jameela [00:05:05] You know what? I actually think it looks really great on you, and I think you should wear it all the time.

Grace [00:05:09] I vibe it because I would be great in a call center.

Jameela [00:05:13] Really suits you. It’s it’s giving. Jerry Maguire, do you know what I mean, just walk around looking really busy all the time.

Grace [00:05:19] Omg that really is, yeah. Ari Gold. Love that.

Jameela [00:05:24] How have you been?

Grace [00:05:26] I’ve been great. How have you been? I’ve been sad since you’ve left London.

Jameela [00:05:31] Well, I’ve been sad since you left America, so I I. I properly started hanging out with you properly, probably about six months ago. You came. You seduced me, and then you fucked off again. But it’s for a good reason. It’s because you’re getting ready to do a solo show at Edinburgh, which is really exciting. At Edinburgh Fringe Festival, which is an amazing comedy and arts festival in Scotland. How are you feeling about that? This is really intense.

Grace [00:05:58] I’m feeling really excited actually. Because last time I did the Edinburgh Fringe, I was really it was like a massive first for me. I’d never done anything like it. I’d never performed an hour. I hadn’t done like a long run or anything. So because the fringe you have to do the same show every day for about four and a half weeks, but then on some days if you sell out, which if you’re lucky and I did in the first time I had to do it twice, sometimes three times a day. So it is so draining.

Jameela [00:06:28] Okay, so how old were you when you did the first. I can’t imagine.

Grace [00:06:33] I was 25.

Jameela [00:06:33] That’s so scary. So how do you feel now? Going into Edinburgh for the second time? You are older. You are wiser you’ve been through a whole pandemic since you’ve been through so much. Even during that time, even since I know I’ve known you in the last six months, you’ve been through so much. How do you feel now? Do you feel more in your body? Do you feel more confident? Do you give less of a fuck?

Grace [00:06:54] Yeah, 100%. In a way like it was so good that that happened to me. And I’m sure you have experiences that you’ve gone through which you’re like absolutely awful at the time where it’s like, Oh my God. Because now I just feel like much more impenetrable. Like, these people won’t be able to make me doubt myself in the way that I did then, and I did that summer. And so I feel much more mature. I just feel much more sure of myself. Where itt’s like I know what I’m doing. I’m doing it because I wanna make people laugh. It’ll be just a much more even keel experience. It will be exhausting, but yeah, completely. I don’t feel like I actually really don’t feel that nervous about it at all.

Jameela [00:07:31] And so talk to me about men, this is what the new Edinburgh show is about and it’s about your kind of relationship with men and your analysis of it and and where it all comes from. Correct? Why did you want to make this show about men?

Grace [00:07:44] Well, do you know what? Actually, like I originally, it came from a much darker place, to be honest. It came from a like slightly more traumatic place because, as you know, I had like a really bad experience last year with a man and I was basically a sexually assaulted, which wasn’t the first time in my life that that happened. It was like that actually happened quite a few times to me, but this time it was in America. And I remember after that thinking, Oh my God, like nothing has changed. The first time I started like speaking about this in my work was years ago, and I felt like I was really fool proof that something like that ever happening to me again, which was so ignorant obviously, because like we still live in the same world and I feel like nothing has changed in the last five years when it comes to like men feeling like they still feel that they can get away with so much than they like are licensed to. So I remember like after that. And then I was having like bad experience after bad experience like in dating and I was like, oh my God, like, men, I’ve, I’ve given them way too much power my whole life. I’ve given them way too much power. And in my mind, like, they’ve held way too much space in my head and my sort of I always, I really like vividly remember this like even at the beginning of my like first big relationship, I remember feeling like how he saw me was more important to like how I saw myself and it really defined me. Like loads of moments where, like, if him and I were in an argument, I was in an argument myself. If it was he was angry at me for whatever reason, I, I probably had been like super annoying because like I can be incredibly annoying in relationships, but it’s more that I wouldn’t be able to detach myself from it. Yeah. Like we’d have a fight and I’d like annoy him and harrass him on WhatsApp. And then he said, I want to talk to you because you sent me like 5000 messages today, which is like fair enough like so irritating. But if he was annoyed at me just for like an hour, like, I wouldn’t even be, I wouldn’t have been able to go on stage. I’d be so, like, so angry at myself. So it was that lack of detachment that I had for me and man. And since I’ve gotten to know you, I’ve basically gone on this journey, which we’ll talk about a bit more like, through.

Jameela [00:10:10] Oh no. What have I done?

Grace [00:10:11] No in a good way. Like, it’s all your fault. You’re actually the

Jameela [00:10:16] Everything’s my fault.

Grace [00:10:19] You are the twist of the show Jam at the end I’m like, no, this isn’t even a show about men it’s about one woman who’s ruined my life. No, no. In all honesty, like after sort of like what happened last year in America. And then you sort of reminded me to do EMDR, which is like an amazing type treatment for like trauma based therapy. And then I have in the last six months since the new year, I have basically weaned myself off this addiction from male validation. And it’s, it’s amazing. I remember at the beginning of this year, I had a day every week it was Mondays every week I would not talk to a man apart from my gay best friend Jack. I couldn’t talk to a straight man every Monday. I would have like a day and now I’m going absolute months on end without doing it.

Jameela [00:11:16] This is a proper man ban.

Grace [00:11:17] Yeah. No, no, I completely every Monday I was like, no man Mondays. And I was like, it was really like having to enforce it, someone would try and talk to me. I would ignore them, archive them, and then the next day I’d be like, Hey, sorry.

Jameela [00:11:31] You’re properly kind of treating this like AA.

Grace [00:11:35] I really I was.

Jameela [00:11:36] That’s the kind of thing that friends of mine. Yeah. Who have addiction, kind of, they have to go on a kind of complete cleanse in order to break the cycle. They say you can break any cycle within 28 days, but I mean, maybe I need to try that with online shopping. But I.

Grace [00:11:54] Because it, it’s an addiction, I was addicted. It wasn’t normal. My relationship with men was not like, how

Jameela [00:12:00] Is it the inti – What is it that you what is it that you’re addicted to, though? Is it the intimacy? Is it the validation?

Grace [00:12:06] I don’t think it was the intimacy because I actually don’t struggle with intimacy. I that’s more I no. Do you know what it was? It was the validation that I would get from a man texting me so it wouldn’t even have to be, like, physical or like I’d see them. It would be. I love the feeling of a man being like, you’re amazing or like reaffirming my existence. And actually it was. I remember so well after I broke out with my ex boyfriend, the first thing I really struggled with was him not being on the other end of the phone. So if anything happened, like I suddenly think I’ve got like something wrong with me or like my health anxiety, like flares up whatever and I’m like, convinced I’m dying. It would always be him I would call and he would always calm me down. And it was like, Scarlett would say this to me, and like, all of my best friends would be like, You can just call someone else. But that took me like two years to get to the point where I felt like I could get that validation from a friend, not from a like boyfriend. Does that make sense?

Jameela [00:13:10] Yeah, but do you know where this comes from? Have you been like this since you were a teenager?

Grace [00:13:14] No, no. I was never like this. And that’s what’s really- I mean, I was obsessed with my dad, like, completely obsessed with him and really, like, obsessed with his approval. But, you know, it wasn’t actually that deep. Like, it wasn’t until I actually think it’s one thing I’m trying to work out how to approach it in the show, I think it’s because I like I was so it got no validation from men as a teenager at all. I was I was just so not. Boys thought I was like really unattractive and really annoying and really loud and like, really like, in their face. And they’re all just, like, repulsed by me.

Jameela [00:13:56] Was this during the year that you had a wart on your nose that you named?

Grace [00:14:00] Exactly. Rice Krispie.

Jameela [00:14:01] Rice Krispie which is one of my favorite stories and your absolutely exceptional book. Your book is your book is so good. I mean, you know this because you’ve heard from several friends who have stayed with me that your I keep your book on a nightstand because I have a room that my friends come and stay at any time they want. And it’s often where people come when they need like refuge. They need somewhere to somewhere to go when they are sad or in pain or struggling with their health, their mental health. And right next to the bedside table is a copy of your book because I genuinely think it can cheer anyone. I read it in, like, my darkest hour. Scarlett `Curtis gave it to me as a present when she could see that I was really emotionally struggling and it completely elevated my mood and the way that I look and I look at the world. But anyway, that was just a random thing.

Grace [00:14:51] Well that makes me really happy because that’s sort of what I’m aiming to do in general, really.

Jameela [00:14:58] So, okay, so you had I mean, there’s also, by the way, the most extraordinary open letter to Dua Lipa in this book, which I mean, alone is worth the read, is one of the funniest things I’ve ever read. I’d loved it so much anyway. Getting back to what you’re talking about. So you had no attention from boys until what age?

Grace [00:15:19] It was so interesting. It’s like, well, definitely until I got into my twenties and then every year it’s just and it makes me actually really resentful of man because it’s like. I don’t think, because I’ve always been exceptionally arrogant. Like even you talk about that Dua Lipa thing. It’s like when I was at school, I was so full of myself, despite everyone being like your batters, you’re annoying. Like, I wasn’t particularly good at anything as well. Like, I wasn’t, like, really smart. I was just. I really just always backed myself so much. Like even if other people

Jameela [00:15:52] Where did that come from. I love that.

Grace [00:15:56] My mum says it was like a I was born with it. My mum says that like from the moment I was born it was like everybody has to listen to me and everybody’s always told me I’m annoying like forever. I’ve have been called annoying throughout my life. Men now find me so annoying but it’s all it’s almost like I’ve got some kind of, like. It’s the one thing that I’m just like, I don’t really care. I don’t know. It’s because I love my personality and I feel like if I wasn’t me, I’d want to be me’s best friend. And I think I’ve always thought that. I’ve always, always thought that I would be so gutted if I wasn’t me. And I met me. And then me. I just walked off. Come back!

Jameela [00:16:42] Oh my god, I’m going to make this a clip for the podcast. Completely out of context. I think it should be like a TikTok like it should be like a viral TikTok sound.

Grace [00:16:55] That is true.

Jameela [00:16:57] That is such a, that is such a wonderful thing to hear. You never hear anyone say anything like that, especially not women. And it’s not even jarring or grating coming from you.

Grace [00:17:08] Yeah it’s so funny because I pull it off. I pull it off.

Jameela [00:17:12] I know is there is there is something about you, though, like from the second you have this just die hard confidence that your feet are so firmly in the ground upon which you walk at all times. You’re so incredibly present. And I can imagine it maybe being intimidating to some people because it’s like because because nobody feels this way. And regardless of how much money or success or whatever they look like or blablabla nobody I know I know people who are at the height of all of those things who haven’t got a modicum of that kind of confidence. And there’s something so inspiring about it. Like when I after I met you and I think James felt the same way after we met, we were like, We want to be a bit more like that. You’re so just you’re so in your body and you own your shit and you own the things that are that you are not perfect at. But I really love the fact that you back yourself and it’s something that all of us need to do because fucking hell if we don’t at least have ourselves on our side, who else are we going to be able to rely on for that unconditional love?

Grace [00:18:12] True it is so true. And like, honestly, and the only thing I’ll say is like on that, like I back myself so much apart from when it comes to men.

Jameela [00:18:21] They’re your Achilles heel.

Grace [00:18:23] They are because that’s the- And Scarlett says it all the time. She said this thing I remember, like when I was in this, I was once in this relatioship. It was like quite like unhealthy. And like I was saying, I was being completely defined by like whatever the mode of the relationship was. And I remember she said to me, she was like, the thing is, like, in any friendship, you’re not like needy or obsessive or like demanding of validation in this way because you know that all your friends love you so much and like want to be your best friend. It’s only with men. I become really, really doubtful and I’m like, I need I remember I once had a boyfriend. I made him make me his screensaver because I was so convinced he’d forget about me when I wasn’t there. That’s the level of like I had no confidence when it came to men. So actually it’s like that thing with I know that like everybody wants to be my friend and it maybe this is my other problem with men is like the amount of times I’ve been dumped, Jameela, by someone who says I really want to be your best friend. And it’s like, we don’t get to have that actually, you don’t get that. And so that’s why I’ve got such probably a complex about it. Anyway, coming back to the original point when I was then I got older and more and more men of obviously as you get older like start to be attracted to this like, sense of self, I guess I have and then I got into like a long term relationship and then like, you know, since then I’ve had all these different experiences, like with dating men, where with each one I’ve gotten closer to exactly like that thing I just described that I feel in general about myself. I’ve got, I’ve been able to back myself in relationships and I’ve been able to actually say for the first time like, this isn’t working for me, this isn’t making me happy, and I know that I’m better alone. Where I didn’t feel like that a few years ago, I felt I’ve had to sort of really I felt men telling me I’m amazing for that brief moment was worth whatever turmoil or like, you know, complexity or like downfall that it came with. And now I’ve gotten to this point where like I do, and this is sort of like, what I want to believe the show to be about. It’s like I’ve gotten to a point now where I just completely do back myself across the board, like with men in relationships and in work. But it’s been so hard. It’s so hard, if any. I mean, the thing of my addiction with men, it’s like it really was an addiction is that I had my man ban was once a month, once a week. I had a day where I didn’t talk to men, but then I didn’t get with anyone for two months, which was amazing. And then I got with a girl, which was like really cool, and I was like, okay, it’s not just men that I’m obsessed with. And then since then, I’ve just become more like. All these people are just going to like come and go and then maybe I’ll meet someone and have, you know, something like what you and James have, which is like an amazing relationship, also a partnership where you back each other. And unless it’s that I look at you and James as like this like pinnacle, unless it’s that I really can’t be bothered at the moment.

Jameela [00:21:28] I mean, we do still want to kill each other every so often it’s like it’s seasonal. Like once every season we plot each other’s deaths, but. I really rate you coming on and talking about this because and making a whole show about this because I think in our current era, you know, of feminism and you are a wonderful feminist activist, you have pulled off so many incredible things at such a young age within activism and social justice. And I have loved your work long before I ever got a chance to know you will meet you and and love your passion. And so as a vocal and adamant feminist. It’s definitely probably unexpected for you to make a show about your dependency on men, your need for men, your desire for their attention, the amount they consume your brain. And also, it feels like this generation is not cool to talk about being. It’s not even cool to be straight now that people are so often that kind of like sentiment of like there’s nothing more embarrassing than being heteronormative.

Grace [00:22:36] Than liking men.

Jameela [00:22:36] Yeah than liking men. And so, you know, we’re we’re not supposed to admit that we want these things or we want that validation, in spite of the fact that 90% of our conditioning from birth is to find a partner, to find the prince, to have the wedding, to settle down. And so we’re constantly wrestling with all of this. And I think it’s sometimes I hope it’s coming from a real place, but I think sometimes it might be accidentally a bit disingenuous, the amount we talk about not giving a fuck because then.

Grace [00:23:06] 100%.

Jameela [00:23:07] We suppress, we suppress how much we do care about wanting a relationship, whether it’s regardless of the gender of the person you want. It’s okay to to find that a bit of a struggle at first. And I think it’s really vital that we have these conversations about this dependency, about this need for validation, about these things are very much so happening to so many people and now they feel like they can’t even really talk about it because that feels cringe.

Grace [00:23:28] I know. Do you know-

Jameela [00:23:29] And I find that quite worrying.

Grace [00:23:30] That is actually such a good point. And I don’t I weirdly like I haven’t even thought about that enough because when I’m doing like I did a preview for this show last week and. There was a point in the show where I said, you know, like most of the people here are straight. So I just like know my demographic and I’m talking to loads of them. Most of them are women. Most of them are in relationships with men. And then I did the bit where I talk about that texting thing, which has been the real issue of mine, of like sort of saying everything that I want to say on a WhatsApp argument and getting into these WhatsApp arguments with men and often feeling like men. What if you’re like a woman in a relationship with the kind of men I’ve often dated, which like football laddy, like there’s a sort of type of like banterous thing in the guys that I go after, but they you’re often faced with these similar things of they’re just like, Oh, you’re being so ridiculous. Anyway, like in the show last week, I was, Oh my God, so many women here feel really seen by me talking about this because we’re all often dickheads or we’re all of often dating or in relationships with dickheads, but we’re not I feel like at the moment women feel like they have to be in like really perfect relationships if they are in relationships basically to like validate the existence of being in a.

Jameela [00:24:53] Yeah, or they have to pretend that being alone and not wanting anyone is completely easy. Which it is for some people. And it did become that for me, but also it’s a process. So I think it’s really unhelpful when we don’t show our workings out. And that’s what I kind of appreciate about your show. Like I listen to your hour from last week and it’s great. It feels like I’m actually going on a journey with you of learning how you manage to unpack and unfold this sort of innate emotional structure within yourself. Because for me, it was it was such a big decision to be like, I would honestly rather be alone and I’m going to learn how to be alone and I’m going to learn how to go to bed at night, like by myself with no one to cuddle, I’m going to buy a boyfriend pillow, which I did and I highly recommend. It’s like.

Grace [00:25:40] Honestly.

Jameela [00:25:42] It’s like a U-shape. It’s the most extraordinary. It’s like it was actually really hard to get rid of it when James kind of came into the picture.

Grace [00:25:49] The throuble. You, me and the pillow.

Jameela [00:25:52] He’s getting jealous of the pillow, but I um. I shouldn’t have fucked the pillow to be fair. No, but it was. Can you imagine just lying next to your boyfriend just dry humping your pillow?

Grace [00:26:02] Yeah. I mean, yeah, we’ve all done it. We’ve all humped a pillow. I’m sorry. Whether we were six years old or just last year. We’ve all humped a pillow at some point.

Jameela [00:26:13] Everyone’s teddy bear has seen something really awful.

Grace [00:26:16] 100%. My yeah, everybody had a jelly cat back in the day that was like,.

Jameela [00:26:26] Not a jelly cat! Oh my god!

Grace [00:26:26] There’s life sized jelly cats. Do remember them? They were like the fucking same height as me. I’m like, how can I not try to have sex with you?

Jameela [00:26:37] Oh my god.

Grace [00:26:37] You’ve literally made me a toy.

Jameela [00:26:41] Oh, God. But. But with him. I was really hard on him, you know, as in a way in comparison to how I hadn’t been hard enough on any boyfriend before. I was just like I would honestly I’m now just I’m going for not for him to be a perfect person, but for me to be in a relationship where I’m happy, where I’m growing, where I’m challenged, I want all those things or else I’m that’s it. I’m doing it alone. Like I would rather I’d rather not. Because you give so much of yourself in a relationship. It’s so much endless compromise for both parties and you are putting down a big part of yourself to make space for someone else. And that’s great. But it has to be you have to be getting really a lot out of it. You agreed not to shag one of the eight like any of the 8 billion other people on this fucking planet.

Grace [00:27:30] Yeah.

Jameela [00:27:31] It really has to be fucking worth it and has to constantly be worth it. And even though we’ve been together seven years, we’re still working to make sure that it’s worth it for each other. And I think that that’s that’s a standard that took me until I was almost 30 to make for myself. And I ten out of ten would recommend.

Grace [00:27:45] But you know what Jameela exactly it’s that it’s like I remember my therapist used to like tell me about boundaries and I used to like laugh and be like I thought boundaries were like a thing that everybody sort of like was making up and I didn’t really understand what they were like the term having a boundary. I really, I used to be like, ahahaha. Like and even like people on social media be like set boundaries. I used to just, I couldn’t comprehend what it actually meant because it took me so long to get to a point where I could actually have standards and say, no, that’s, that’s not going to work for me. And you’re like pushing me to my limits now. And it took me such a long time. And I just wanna be like anyone listening to this. If you’re nowhere near that, like it’s such a process, it just doesn’t it takes such a long time. It takes as many sort of failed relationships as like it might take for someone to come to the point that I guess that you got to before you met James and like hopefully I’m I’m getting to now. It takes a long time.

Jameela [00:28:44] It does take a long time. And it is hard. And it does require constantly challenging everything we’re being told via social media, via women’s magazines, via books, media, everything. It’s, it’s it’s really it’s it’s really an onslaught that they should be our main focus and, and our career that we have is until we meet the right person, we settle down that we have babies, and then we do all the fucking work that’s still subliminally in the water. It hasn’t gone. Considering how far we’ve come, it hasn’t gone. It’s still what I see most of my friends doing. And there’s again there’s same. I just don’t want people to feel like that is the prescription that I, I reject it with my, with every fiber of my being. I reject that.

Grace [00:29:25] Honestly same. And like I really thought that people my age or like slightly older, like, wouldn’t prescribe to it because I was like, oh my God. Obviously we’re also post like hen dos and like baby showers and gender reveals and all of that stuff and making a big deal out of getting married like anybody cares that you’re getting married.

Jameela [00:29:46] I stop saying congratulations now. I had to I had to catch myself because I’m like, What is that? Why am I congratulating someone for having someone want to settle down with my amazing friend? Like congratulations to him.

Grace [00:29:57] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But also, it’s like the way that people expect you to spend money on a wedding like these like going abroad. I’m supposed to spend loads of money as a single person on the fact that you guys have decided to make a big deal and show off about the fact that you’re, like, happy in a relationship together. It doesn’t really sit right with me. And I thought we I thought the world had evolved more. And I’m getting into my late twenties. I’m like, Oh, ok. This is really going to happen.

Jameela [00:30:28] You better fucking watch out now that you said that for your own wedding.

Grace [00:30:31] No the wedding.

Jameela [00:30:33] None of us are coming abroad for you.

Grace [00:30:35] Yeah, my my wedding. I’m going to be like, if I ever got married, I’d be like you. As in the person I’m getting with shut up. Sit down. This whole thing is going to be about me. Like, you better be happy that it’s basically just give me my 30th or 40th birthday party like.

Jameela [00:30:51] Yeah, 100%. I’m just a yeah, I the that there is still a hysteria around it that I think we need to kind of unpack. So with some people with addiction, you know, especially when it’s not an addictive substance, right? So we’re talking about like sex addiction or gaming addiction or this, that and the other. Often it’s because of a thing that they are running away from and they find either solace in their addiction and distraction in their addiction, or they have a way to feel you can feel ashamed of the addiction. And so you are trying to externalize your inner shame about something else via the addiction. Like, I’m so embarrassed that I’m in this situation again. I’m so like I’m hiding it from all my friends. You know, I’m I’m doing this thing that’s compulsive and unhealthy and no one knows about it. I’m dirty, I’m bad, I’m wrong. It’s like a way to kind of project that outwards. Do you know what the what the kind of foundation of your addiction is?

Grace [00:31:45] Yeah, I think it’s definitely it’s it’s not the it’s less the latter and much more me running away from having to do things on my own basically, and having to actually to deal with life on my own in the way that we all do. You know, like the reality of my parents have been together for like 44 years, but they very much are healthily detached from one another and do things and deal with things separate. And I sort of I feel like what I’ve been doing is and it probably comes from an early, you know, I’ve had anxiety probably on and off for a really long time, and I didn’t know it until I was in my late teens. But I think I was I’ve actually really always been very anxious but really good at masking it. And then I think what I got so dependent on was feeling like I had someone else there, I guess, to look after me. But less even that when it was in practice because it was more me feeling like I had to make sure that they were happy so that they would never leave. It’s all feeling like scared of being alone, scared of being abandoned. And so what’s been amazing about this year, which I feel like is what you’ve said that you have as well it’s like having that man ban or going through these periods of being alone is is I mean, now I’m like, oh my God, I can’t even imagine being in a relationship because I’m so happy on my own now for the first time in my entire life. But that’s definitely what I’ve been. Yeah. I remember when I broke up my ex-boyfriend, it was in COVID. And so instead of just dealing with it and processing, I went on Hinge and met another guy and on our second date asked him to move in with me. And then he came and lived with me for four months. I barely knew him, but he like was stuck in the UK because he couldn’t get back to America. That was the level of like I could not be alone, I just couldn’t do it. And I remember thinking my friends are like you’re wild like, why have you got this random person living with you? But it was because I was so I was so, so deeply scared of being alone of being in my flat on my own and of having no one to, like, look after me.

Jameela [00:34:05] And so do you think part of that is that you sort of I don’t know. You kind of. You’re so and you present a so wildly independent and unneeding of anyone else’s approval, etc., I know we’ve already just touched on this like how, how you come across. How firmly you kind of stand on your own two feet. Do you think that you’re presenting more of that than is real. And that’s why it then kind of like bursts out onto men. Or do you think that that is authentic and this is just a separate issue?

Grace [00:34:38] So I think there was a massive disconnect between those two things. I thought in general, yeah, I do feel that. And I. And I. And I thought. Okay. Weirdly, I was listening to your episode with Jane Fonda, which is the most amazing thing ever. Like, I can’t. I loved it so much.

Jameela [00:34:58] Can you believe how like posh I am in that episode though because I was so fucking scared.

Grace [00:35:03] No it was amazing. I just loved it so much. She’s amazing. But she spoke so well about like that experience of, like, trauma and how what happens is you do form two versions of yourself basically, and there is the version of you that’s self presenting or whatever to the world, which so I don’t know where that version of me being the most confident person in the world begins and where this more vulnerable part of me, which does need comfort and care and to be looked after. I don’t know how completely they’re defined, but I know that in the last year those have gotten much more closer together and that and they started to feel more like one person.

Jameela [00:35:46] I think it’s I think it’s great to strike a balance. But I also just want to say to you and to anyone listening out there, there’s also nothing wrong with needing people and with needing intimacy and with, you know, we are supposed to be community based. We are supposed to be we are supposed to be social. We are supposed to be loved and cared for. So I think it’s just about striking that healthy balance where you do it because you want it, obviously not because you need it. But I also don’t want the kind of like the the new era of young women to think that it’s not okay to want or crave that a bit because it’s also really good for you to have those things. But I think it’s just important to be able to survive without it, which is what you’re trying to find.

Grace [00:36:28] And this is not to like shit on like some of the way the world is now. But this is what annoys me at the moment about like some of the dialog around likevbeing a woman where’s it’s like actually, like you just said, it should be a healthy balance, but you shouldn’t feel you need it. And obviously I that point where I was like on Hinge to meet someone, I didn’t think I needed it. I just thought I wanted it. And then it’s only now I can really see that it was in a much more unhealthy way, which is like any addiction, like, you know, when you have that breakthrough. But what I do not like at the moment is this narrative of like it being really bad to say, you want a boyfriend. Like, why is that so bad? To say that you want to be in a partnership, you know? And I that’s something that I don’t prescribe to at all. I think if you want to be even I have this so much with girls or like people I know who had girls they’re dating or who are single, who say, I don’t want to like say to someone like early on that I’m looking for a relationship because it might scare them away. It’s like, but you’re looking for a relationship, so you should just say that. But we’re so scared of sort of the seeming, you know, women are constantly like, I don’t know, it’s very complicated, but I don’t like this idea that, like, you shouldn’t want to be in a relationship.

Jameela [00:37:48] No, I completely agree. And I think, you know, you and I both being like relatively outspoken, very, very outspoken. There’s no point saying relatively, extremely, extremely ridiculously, maybe a bit too much, sometimes outspoken feminists. And it means that we also kind of maybe pressure ourselves, but also feel a lot of external pressure to then be this like archetype of of what feminism is now projected to be. And that can sometimes tiptoe into misandry, which I don’t personally subscribe to myself. It’s a kind of hatred of men that there is there is this feeling that you kind of have to boss your way through life, and I don’t need anyone. And I think there are so many elements of that I love because we’ve been trained to be so dependent on on being loved and on being wanted and needed. But I do think that it’s really, really toxic for young people in especially the next generation to be raised with this kind of false individualism ideal that we’re all just supposed to be alone. And that’s cool. And being and also, you know, there’s this I don’t know. I feel like a lot of the media that goes out to that generation as well is like quite toxic and a bit.

Grace [00:39:03] I agree. My mum says this a lot before. Sometimes I feel like we’re slightly losing the the like we’re losing the capacity to compromise in relationships as well. Like look, if you’re in a bad unhealthy relationship 100% leave but I’ve, I’ve heard people sort of say like you should leave a relationship for things that are like so minor. And my mum says this a lot that I relationships long term relationships not that I’ve ever been in one that’s you know been like impressively long, but they’re really hard work and you have to compromise constantly. And like you said earlier, both people do. And there’s slightly I what’s the best word here. I feel like we’re losing that in the in the dialog around relationships.

Jameela [00:39:52] Yeah if it’s not perfect and it doesn’t really work. And you shouldn’t expect everything you need to be in one person.

Grace [00:39:58] Yeah.

Jameela [00:39:59] Because that’s what your friends are for that they’re to fulfill the other little bits and bobs. Probably not the shagging bit, but I don’t know if you’re in a modern relationship. Maybe that’s maybe that’s where you’re going to want to get a fucking jelly cat.

Grace [00:40:09] And this advert this podcast is sponsored by

Jameela [00:40:14] Brought to you by jelly cat. Yeah, I, I think, I, yeah, I think that there’s just a lot of very extremist views and it’s always the most extreme views that somehow like make it to the kind of the pinnacle of the, you know, FYP page or whatever on social media. And if the more extreme something is, the more it’s going to travel because it’s going to create a lot of dialog. And so I don’t want people to think that’s all there is. It’s really just about balance. And so. I don’t want you to kind of like I don’t know spoil your Edinburgh you know special but. But where are you getting to now. I know it’s been a couple of months. You’re feeling good about things. You’re still having therapy.

Grace [00:40:58] No, I’m not I’ve actually stopped doing my talking therapy now, but I’m doing still EMDR. Um, for certain things, but I’m feeling really like touch wood. You know, feeling really good at the moment. I feel like I’ve finally found that balance, and I don’t know how that’s going to change when I do get into a relationship again. I’m not really overthinking or stressing out about it because like I said, I’m not going to do it unless it feels like it’s worth it. Which is really like what you were describing earlier about where you are like. It has to feel like it’s something that’s really adding into my life now. And so I’m swimming and doing yoga. Most days I try and get eight or 9 hours sleep. So boring. But, like.

Jameela [00:41:51] Smug. Pretty smug.

Grace [00:41:52] Yeah. And really, I, I. I mean, I absolutely love sleeping. I’m so lazy.

Jameela [00:41:58] No I. I appreciate that. I think where I got to with my own, sort of like my own position was just to become responsible for myself, to not to accountable for myself and to not say I’m a victim of everything, even if I had to be, even if I have full on been a victim of some things and have to survive certain things and others actions. Generally, I wanted to be responsible, accountable for myself because I found that very empowering and I didn’t want anyone else to feel like they had to be responsible for me. And so then you start dating more for the pleasure of it. You know, I want someone to be a pleasure. I want someone to be a happy addition to my life. But I have always got me. I will always be there for me. I can. I can control me. I can help me. I can soothe me. I want to be my own Swiss Army knife.

Grace [00:42:50] Mm hmm.

Jameela [00:42:52] You know what I mean, and then. And then James is there for support and love, but. But everything that he brings in is now in excess of what I have built for myself. And so I don’t need him at all, which I think he had to wrestle with at the beginning of our relationship. I just want him. And so as long as he continues to make me want him and vice versa, we’ll stay together. But I never, ever, ever want to come ever again from a place of let’s just leave it as I never want to come ever, ever again. No, I never wanna come from a place of of a fundamental need. And I think it’s great that you’re having therapy and it’s great you’re doing EMDR. Spoken about it a bunch on this podcast is Eye Movement Desensitization. And I think reprocessing is an extraordinary therapy for trauma. And you know, you’ve kind of touched on lightly the kind of trauma that you’ve been through in your life, be that sexual assault, be that bullying, be that rejection, like traumatic levels of rejection because it is fucking traumatizing. I was rejected by everyone until I was about 21, unless I was being molested by someone, you know. Like that was the only kind of form of affection that I would receive from other people or attention I would receive from other people was unwanted, inappropriate attention. But anyone I actually liked, no one. Everyone just thought I was too tall, too weird to sort of I present as very asexual. You’ve spoken before about how you present a sort of like hypersexual sometimes. Like people what did you say? That people just see you and just presume that you’re a vegan who loves anal.

Grace [00:44:21] Yes that’s it. People look at me and think I’m just a fucking massive cokehead whore basically. Someone once came up to me in the smoking area at Soho House and he was like. I saw you across the room and you just looked like you smell of sex. And I was like, What does that mean? Like, what does that mean? So that’s another thing that I’ve had to really. Yeah toy with that is that is, this is so exciting and I really quite worked out how to put this in the show. But I have this issue and I remember saying this to you when we were in L.A. of men wanting to have sex with me, which is the complete opposite of what I used to have when I was younger. Men want to have sex with me, and I loved the idea of having sex with me. And then as soon as it gets into anything emotional or gritty, they’re like, Well, this is too much. So they love the idea of it because they think I’m this two dimensional like version of whatever I put out online or in my comedy. And then actually, obviously I’m a person with like mental illness clearly like mad and have all of these are the layers to me. And then they’re like, Oh, I can’t handle this. It’s really interesting. It’s like, where is your nuance?

Jameela [00:45:35] Well, this is the porn ification, you know, of culture, isn’t it, where people are just looking at you and thinking she’ll be up for anything based on like stereotypes that have been amassed from looking at nonsense online. Whereas actually you just want to cuddle.

Grace [00:45:50] I just want to be. I just want to be held. Yeah.

Jameela [00:46:02] Anyone who is going to be at Edinburgh Festival go and see Grace’s show. And also definitely, definitely by Amazing Disgrace. It is one of my favorite books I’ve read in years and it is honestly one of the most soothing and hilarious and relatable books. I really. I really love the fact that you never put on a front. I love the fact that right now you are being exactly the same as if you were sitting on my living room floor with me. I think it is incredibly bold how honest and open you are in every single facet of your work. I also hope you know that you don’t always have to do that. You don’t owe that to anyone.

Grace [00:46:40] No but it’s I don’t even think about it. That’s the thing. I just.

Jameela [00:46:45] You have clearly wrestled with and dominated shame in order to show up so authentically as yourself in a way that very, very few people do. And I know you receive a lot of judgment, and I know you receive a lot of personal cutting opinions online. And and it is massively inspiring to me to watch you back yourself the way that you do and to allow for your vulnerabilities, allow for your mistakes, allow for your own growth. I think that that’s that is also a really prominent, important form of feminism that we don’t see enough. You know, I was talking on this podcast recently about being like, I’m here for fuck up representation if we’re going to talk about diversity. You can’t just have a bunch of different perfect looking like people from different like minorities who never make mistakes and always say and do the right thing. That’s not fucking diversity. Where are the fuck ups? Where’s the mids? You know what I mean, I’m here for the mids.

Grace [00:47:40] Do you know what that is so true. And it’s that same thing of being like, I just I’m so happy to be here and talk about, like, my wants or need for, like, men and sex if it makes anyone else feel like, Oh, okay, that is normal. Like, I don’t have to be expected to be, like, perfectly like, healthy when it comes to relationships. I’m so happy to do that.

Jameela [00:48:02] It’s okay to be dependent. It’s okay to take your time to unpick all of this. You’re up against a lot. And and you’re going to be okay. And it is possible. And there is a lot of self-respect and self-preservation at the end of that tunnel. And it’s it’s great that you’re bringing everyone else along for the ride. So before I let you go, I just want to ask you one final question, Grace, and that is, what do you weigh?

Grace [00:48:28] I weigh an amazing group of friends like the most amazing. I just have so many unbelievable relationships with people. And it’s like a completely unconditional love and support. A capacity to make people laugh and cheer people up and make people feel less alone. A really good wardrobe.

Jameela [00:49:00] You do have a really good wardrobe. Also, I can’t believe that you’ve dressed today to match your fucking Barbie kitchen behind you.

Grace [00:49:08] No, I. I have, like, I guess, empathy. Like, the thing that I feel I’ve, like, built and built and built. And it comes from a feeling like it comes from all of my experience in life of always knowing that people you don’t really know what’s going on. And I feel I have so much empathy and have such capacity. Whenever someone comes in like a crisis or when they have something, they want to talk through with me, I’m honored. Because I’m like, I’m so honored that I’m someone that you feel you can talk to. So a lot of empathy and I’m really just like so proud of, of getting to this point where I feel I’m, I can really help people and understand other people. I don’t know am I really rambling.

Jameela [00:49:49] No.

Grace [00:49:50] No?

Jameela [00:49:51] You’re not, no. I think that’s.

Grace [00:49:52] What else should I say?

Jameela [00:49:54] I think I think you’ve I think you’ve nailed it. I think you’ve nailed it. And I think you weigh all those things. And soon you’ll weight your hit second Edinburgh show.

Grace [00:50:05] Yeah standup and my comedy club and I’ve helped so many like other like women get into comedy in London mainly. And that’s been amazing to watch. I’ve helped. Yeah.

Jameela [00:50:15] Well, I love you and I have loved getting to know you. And I really, really appreciate you and all the ways I’ve already said. And I will see you fucking soon.

Grace [00:50:25] Honestly. Thank you so much. The things you said about me, I can’t like, you know, you’re too nice and you know I love you. And I’m so happy that you’re in my life honestly. It’s just completely transformed it. You’re a wonderful, wonderful human being. Seriously.

Jameela [00:50:42] Well, now, if ever goes tits up, everyone knows who to blame. It won’t go tits up. It’s only is only up from here. Love you.

Grace [00:50:51] Literally love you. Thank you so much.

Jameela [00:50:56] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. We also have a bonus series exclusively on Stitcher Premium called Ask Jameela Anything. Check it out. You can get a free month the Stitcher Premium by going Stitcher.com/premium and using the promo code I Weigh. Lastly over at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 18186605543 or email us what you weigh at IWeighpodcast@gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our fabulous listeners.

Listener [00:51:48] I weigh my journey to becoming more intuitive.