December 27, 2022
EP. 185 — Sasheer Knows Her Rising Sign with Casey Wilson & June Diane Raphael – Re-Release
Happy almost new year! To bring in good tidings to 2023, we are releasing another amazing episode of Best Friends from behind the paywall. On another episode of Besting Each Other, Nicole and Sasheer are joined by Casey Wilson + June Diane Raphael! Casey shares a story of June keeping energy high at Casey’s bachelorette party, and June gets teary-eyed remembering how Casey reached out to her their freshman year at NYU. They talk about astrological counseling sessions, similar life occurrences, candy in earthquake kits, strippers at baby showers, and the ambitions friendship can foster. Plus, they both hope that in 20 years they are going on joint family trips and no longer have to work.
Email or call Nicole & Sasheer with your friendship questions at:
185 — Sasheer Knows Her Rising Sign with Casey Wilson & June Diane Raphael – Re-Release
Sasheer [00:00:03] Hey, friends. Happy almost New Year. We are taking a little time off for the holidays, so we are going to rerelease an episode from behind the paywall. And this is one that we truly adore. This is our Besting Each Other episode with June Diane Raphael and Casey Wilson. And these women are absolute powerhouses. They are so funny, so talented. And they have such an inspiring friendship. You know and love Casey from Happy Endings, Black Monday, The Shrink Next Door. And June is on Grace and Frankie, Big Mouth, and Everything’s Trash. And both of them were on Home Economics, and it was an absolute joy to have them on set. You can hear us learn about how astrology signs can help you understand your friendship better, why a stripper at a baby shower is the best present, and how loving your friend means asking them to speak louder so you can hear them. Enjoy this episode, and we will see you in the New Year.
Nicole [00:01:11] Wow. Okay. This segment is called Besting Each Other. Right now, Sasheer is at an audition. So, I’m flying solo for a hot second. And our guest–you know her from Happy Endings. Mrs. Fletcher, Always Be My Maybe, Black Monday, Family Guy, Heather’s, Atypical, American Dad, so many things! It’s Casey Wilson!
Casey [00:01:36] What an intro. I’m going to raise my energy level.
Nicole [00:01:39] You don’t have to. I have energy for days. It’s exhausting.
Casey [00:01:44] I’m so happy to be here.
Nicole [00:01:46] Thank you so much for coming.
Casey [00:01:47] Now you have a friend.
Nicole [00:01:50] It’s nice to have a friend.
Casey [00:01:52] At the end of the day, it is. Yeah.
Nicole [00:01:53] Some people will tweet us that they wish they had a best friend. And that makes me sad.
Casey [00:01:58] Oh, they’ll find someone.
Nicole [00:02:00] Well, your best friend is June Diane Raphael.
Casey [00:02:04] Raphael.
Nicole [00:02:04] Raphael. I’ve been saying it wrong for years.
Casey [00:02:08] Look, you know, that’s something I know about my best friend. That shows how close we are.
Nicole [00:02:15] Raphael.
Casey [00:02:15] It’s not intuitive because it’s, of course, spelled Raphael.
Nicole [00:02:18] It spelled Raphael.
Casey [00:02:19] And I am Wilson.
Nicole [00:02:21] Wilson. Casey Wilson. I love it. All right, Casey, where did you two meet?
Casey [00:02:27] We met in a clown class at.
Nicole [00:02:30] Wait, really?
Casey [00:02:31] Yes, but you know, like, old-timey clowning with red noses and weird costumes? At NYU in sophomore year.
Nicole [00:02:38] What is a clown class?
Casey [00:02:40] It’s so strange. It’s, like, you can’t talk. It’s not like birthday party clowns. You have to get in this thing called “the ring of fire,” where, like, you can’t get out for three hours. And the whole class laughs, and you just, like, want to jump out a building.
Nicole [00:02:53] Whoa. So, they make you… So, the class stands around you. They are the ring of fire?
Casey [00:02:57] They are the ring of fire. And if anyone tries a fake laugh to be friendly, the teacher is like, “No.” So, we met there.
Nicole [00:03:05] My God. Do you remember the longest you were in the ring of fire?
Casey [00:03:08] You know, I will say June and I weren’t in there as long as others, but a poor friend was in there for honestly, it felt like 3 hours. Yeah.
Nicole [00:03:16] Oh, boy, that’s tough.
Casey [00:03:18] I know. It’s tough to get a belly laugh from every single person.
Nicole [00:03:21] But NYU– This is Tisch?
Casey [00:03:22] Yeah.
Nicole [00:03:23] Prestigious so… It’s hard.
Casey [00:03:24] No. They know what to do to humiliate everyone and leave you dignity-less.
Nicole [00:03:29] I love it. What is your favorite memory from traveling together?
Casey [00:03:33] Okay, so at my bachelorette party in Palm Springs, all the girls had gone out the first night, and June organized the party. And everyone, like, looked cute. You know, we went to Mexican and dancing. And the next night was another dinner. And the morning of, we’re all in the pool–or, like, afternoon–and June clinks of glass. Now, these are friends from home; they don’t know all know her. 13 girls. And June’s like, “Guys. I need to address everyone,” which is strange to begin with. And she’s like, “I have to say, I wasn’t loving the way everyone presented themselves last night.” And my heart is just stopping. And she’s like, “I didn’t feel the energy fields were as high as they could be.” You know, basically, like, no one brought it. She’s like, “I’m asking for something different tonight. I want you to rummage through bags. You have to borrow things. If you have to go to the gift shop. Just let’s try a bit harder tonight.” And everybody’s looking around. My friend from home who’s a teacher is like, “Is she joking?” And she wasn’t. But let me tell you, did people bring it that night, and did we ultimately have a better time? Yeah. But it was a shock.
Nicole [00:04:37] I honestly love that.
Casey [00:04:40] I mean, it’s bold. It’s bold.
Nicole [00:04:42] It is. I think it’s hard for your friends from home, who meet a friend from where you live now–L.A.–who’s in the industry. I think it might be a little intimidating.
Casey [00:04:52] And then for that person to say, like, “I don’t like what you were wearing.”
Nicole [00:04:55] But also I love it because it’s like, “Yeah, it’s your bachelorette. Everyone should be bringing their A-game.”
Casey [00:05:01] Right. And they weren’t. And when I tried to sneak up to her because I’m such a people pleaser and she’s much more like, “boundaries,” and will just say, I was like, “You know, one girl kind of feels like she only brought cover ups.” And June goes, “Who? Bring her to me.” That was quite a moment.
Nicole [00:05:15] I love that. What is your favorite thing about June?
Casey [00:05:19] I think my favorite thing about June is she is so kind of forthright and she’s such a confident, strong person–truly–but is also so much fun. You know, she will tell you what she’s thinking. The opening line that she will always tell people is “I gotta say,” and you’re like, “Uh oh.” But she has such a strong sense of boundaries, and she’s the most loyal friend a person could possibly have. If she says she’s going to do something, she’s going to do it–in a way that I do feel her moral compass and center is so in the right place in the way I don’t think everyone is ultimately. And she’s just the funniest person and the most compassionate person. That’s many favorite things.
Nicole [00:06:01] I like that.
Casey [00:06:02] Yeah.
Nicole [00:06:03] I like you talking about a moral compass because I feel like sometimes, you’re friends with a friend and you’re like, “I don’t know if they’re good in their intentions.”
Casey [00:06:15] Yes! You’re like, “I like having margaritas with you, but I don’t know if I want to tell you about, like, the addiction that runs through my family.”
Nicole [00:06:24] I think that’s perfect margarita conversation.
Casey [00:06:29] Yeah, for sure.
Nicole [00:06:30] What is June’s favorite thing about you?
Casey [00:06:34] Oh, gosh. I don’t know. I think she thinks I’m fun probably. I would hope. And that I’m empathetic? I don’t know. I have a hard time ascribing myself compliments because I’m such a great person and I’m so humble. I think we’ve just been kicking around together. We have the same sense of humor. And it’s such a special thing to have been friends for so long and go through so much of your life together–since we were 17. And we’re only about 19 now. So, it’s crazy it’s only been two years.
Nicole [00:07:01] It is very crazy that two years feels like such a long time.
Casey [00:07:07] Yeah.
Nicole [00:07:07] So you met your freshman year of NYU?
Casey [00:07:10] Sophomore year.
Nicole [00:07:11] Sophomore year. Okay. I’m so sorry. Oh boy. Kimmie-on-the-keys had to go back to type. Okay. What is something that you do that drives June crazy?
Casey [00:07:29] I have no grasp on technology. I think she’s annoyed when I’m late or like I fuck up, you know, times, dates, conference calls, and phone– Just anything tech-wise is not great. I think she rolls her eyes when she sees me, like, try to befriend toxic people. Drives her crazy. She’s like, “Why do you go in when people are crazy?” That I’m such a people pleaser, I think, bugs her.
Nicole [00:07:54] I also have a little bit of that issue, where I’m like, “That person I had a really great time with–they did, you know, say a mean thing or two to me. And maybe I gotta hang out with them one more time to find out if they’re actually this mean.”
Casey [00:08:09] Yes! “And maybe one more time?” And I’m definitely spending time in therapy talking about someone I barely know because they made me feel bad, but it’s just… Yeah. Not great. We’re doing our best.
Nicole [00:08:20] And when you say you’re not good with technology, what does that entail?
Casey [00:08:23] Well, for instance–and I’m sure the younger listeners can relate–today, June was like… I said, “My phone broke so I can’t text anyone.” And she said, “Why don’t you text on your computer?” And I said, “I didn’t know I could.”
Nicole [00:08:34] Oh.
Casey [00:08:35] So that was hard. That was, like, a hard moment for us.
Nicole [00:08:38] I see. I just found out you could text on the computer.
Casey [00:08:43] Okay. Yeah. Apparently, people seem to know it. I mean, I’m getting a laugh from the producer like, “What the fuck?”
Nicole [00:08:49] Well, it’s hard; when your phone isn’t working, you’re like, “Well, that’s it. I can’t speak to the outside world. We’re done.”
Casey [00:08:57] Right. I was like, “And I’m done with myself even. Like, the phone is powered down, and so am I, suddenly.”
Nicole [00:09:03] But I also think that’s nice to just power down.
Casey [00:09:06] It was nice.
Nicole [00:09:07] Disconnect.
Casey [00:09:09] It had to be forced upon me, but it was nice.
Nicole [00:09:16] Okay. We’re flying through these. Which one of you would do better on Survivor.
Casey [00:09:21] June.
Nicole [00:09:22] Really?
Casey [00:09:22] I would be dead in four minutes. And truly dead. Not, like, kicked off.
Nicole [00:09:27] Oh, you would pass right away?
Casey [00:09:29] I’d be deceased. Yeah.
Nicole [00:09:29] You’d be the first contestant that they said, “Oh no.”
Casey [00:09:31] Yeah. I’m legally blind. I got an epidural when I was zero centimeters dilated–not in labor. And Cedars-Sinai had never seen that before. And I just don’t– I’m not cut out for that kind of thing.
Nicole [00:09:46] You’re not wearing glasses, but you say you’re legally blind.
Casey [00:09:49] Got quite, quite a contact in there. I’m not even eligible to do, like, Lasik, but I could do cataract surgery. So, I just am not going to go the distance there.
Nicole [00:10:03] Do you have astigmatism as well?
Casey [00:10:05] No, but I’m a -11.
Nicole [00:10:09] Wow!
Casey [00:10:11] What are you?
Nicole [00:10:12] I’m -4 in one eye and -3 in the other. I’ve never even heard of -11.
Casey [00:10:18] You’ve never heard those numbers spoken aloud.
Nicole [00:10:20] That’s wild
Casey [00:10:21] Yeah, they go to a special shelf for me.
Nicole [00:10:23] How did you find out that you– Well, obviously, you couldn’t see.
Casey [00:10:27] It just kept, like, going down, down, down every year. But luckily, they’ve used a word that I’m proud to hear at the last two appointments, which is that I’ve “stabilized.”
Nicole [00:10:35] Oh, that means it’s not getting any worse?
Casey [00:10:38] For now. We’re on borrowed time. I don’t know what’s happened since I’ve been there.
Nicole [00:10:41] Does that run in your family?
Casey [00:10:42] Yeah. My mom had, like, a little, but it’s not amazing. I’m so terrified that a natural disaster will leave me, like, using coke bottles. Like, you know, taking a side mirror on someone’s car and crashing it. Like, I’ll be dead. It’ll just be like, “Save yourselves.”
Nicole [00:10:59] I feel like you should believe in yourself.
Casey [00:11:01] Thank you! You know what I did put in all my earthquake kits is a ton of candy and cigarettes. And I haven’t smoked since 9/11, actually, but I was like, “You know what? This will be end of days.”
Nicole [00:11:11] Yeah, so why not?
Casey [00:11:13] I want some comforts. And I want some comforts of Starburst.
Nicole [00:11:15] Did you quit smoking because of 9/11? Or did 9/11 happen because you quit smoking?
Casey [00:11:24] You know, that’s a less popular conspiracy theory, but I’ve been trying to tell everyone. You know, after 9/11, I just was like… You know, I smoked so many cigarettes that day. And when I heard about what had happened the morning I was in New York, I had a strange reaction where I literally got my glasses on, marched to the convenience store, and bought arms full of donuts because I was like, “This is it. Like, we’re going down.” And other people are just, like, connecting with each other on the streets, and I’m just eating my donuts like, “Well, it was a good run. And at least now I know, you know, that’s my choice right now.”
Nicole [00:12:05] I see, I see. Can I go back to the traveling question?
Casey [00:12:09] Yes.
Nicole [00:12:09] So you mentioned your bachelorette party. Do you have any other times that you guys have traveled together?
Casey [00:12:14] Many. So, we went on a road trip once to perform in South Carolina, and June was always trying to save us a dollar, which I do appreciate because we had no money. But she would have us fly into cities, then rent a car. Like, fly past the city we were going to, rent a car to come back, and then have to go back and drop that car. And then we were in such a bad fight–I don’t even remember what was happening. And we’re like, “Let’s just put on some CDs.” But she also gets annoyed that all my CDs were skipped. You know, they were all scratched up. So, we spent so much time in the car, we were listening to this musical theater because we’re dorks, and we just memorized all the skips. And just we knew when to… “And then– And then– And then– And then…!” And we just learned it together. So that was fun.
Nicole [00:12:56] I have a bonus question that’s not on the sheet. Have you ever exchanged presents?
Casey [00:13:03] Yes. Many, many, many.
Nicole [00:13:07] What is the best present June has gotten for you?
Casey [00:13:10] Wow. Her best present was… It’s not that interesting, though. Well, we got each other, I believe, astrological readings. And we did astrological counseling together as a writing partnership.
Nicole [00:13:21] I don’t know what this entails. Please.
Casey [00:13:24] Look, you guys are going to be doing this soon. We went to our astrologist, and she did a counseling session with us based on the stars. And, you know, we are the opposite signs. And so, I’m Scorpio, Capricorn Rising. June’s Capricorn, Scorpio Rising. So, she’s like, “You two are always the opposite forces from each other.” And, you know, Scorpio is crazy. I know I sound insane, and that’s okay. Scorpio is a pretty crazy sign. And then Capricorn is very stabilizing. And she was like, “In seven years, you guys are going to flip.” And I was like, “This is craziness.” And we flipped.
Nicole [00:13:55] Wow! I wonder if that’s–
Casey [00:13:58] And June said– I’m sorry to cut you off. But when we left, June was like, “I feel I really have a lot more compassion towards you when I see your life through the stars.”
Nicole [00:14:07] Oh, see, that’s so sweet! I love that!
Casey [00:14:12] We’ve got to take a look at things from a different angle.
Nicole [00:14:15] Did that session help your writing process?
Casey [00:14:18] I think it did because, you know, when you’re writing with someone creatively, it is a marriage. And because we met so young, I mean, our friendship in many ways is more complex and deep than a marriage. I obviously love my husband, but it’s different. We write together. We work together. Our moms passed around the same time, like, unexpectedly. We both have two sons. There’s been a kind of eerie overlap with our friendship that is intense but wonderful.
Nicole [00:14:45] I like that. I do think of my friendship as this year as a little bit of the closest thing I’ve ever had to having a boyfriend, a marriage, or anything like that because she’s someone I care about so much that if we are disagreeing about something, I’m like, “Oh, I have to stop, step back, see maybe what she’s saying, but then also just ask her like, ‘What’s happening? What’s going on? Are we okay?’”
Casey [00:15:07] Yeah because it’s too important to kind of let it fray over something. Yeah.
Nicole [00:15:14] Okay. So, let’s see. What did I ask? Okay, so what’s the best present you’ve gotten for June?
Casey [00:15:20] Myself, probably. Just blessings and tidings in her life. Oh, I got it. This is the best, actually. So, June was eight months pregnant with her second baby, so I threw a little sprinkle, just like a little… You know, those… It was, like, 10 a.m. on a Saturday–little breakfast with eight friends. And then I said to her, “Listen, we need to go back to your sister’s because something meaningful is happening.” And this is really bad, but I did kind of tee it up as though I’d made a family slideshow for her–there was going to be tears, roped in family members, and all that. So, we get to her sister’s house, and there’s only, like, seven of us there in a very small room. And a male stripper arrived. And he got down on June–eight months pregnant–in a way that really took everyone’s breath away. It was a Sunday. In the stark light, you know? And then he had to, of course, like, get his clothes together. He didn’t bring music.
Nicole [00:16:17] Oh no.
Casey [00:16:19] It was a great gift.
Nicole [00:16:21] That’s honestly very funny. I love that so much. Just, like, a nice Sunday afternoon, daytime, male stripper.
Casey [00:16:30] When you are, you know, about to give birth.
Nicole [00:16:33] But also wild that he didn’t bring music.
Casey [00:16:37] That was a problem. And I assumed he would, so I didn’t have anything teed up. And of course, he would. He brought a pizza, which I requested, but…
Nicole [00:16:47] I once had a male stripper come to my friend’s bachelorette, and he brought an empty pizza box.
Casey [00:16:53] Okay. Because, you know, these are props.
Nicole [00:16:55] I guess he got hungry.
Casey [00:16:58] Oh no! I see what you’re saying.
Nicole [00:16:59] Who knows?
Casey [00:17:00] Look, they’re people, too.
Nicole [00:17:01] They are people, too.
Casey [00:17:02] And they’re fallible. Last thing, actually. June, for my bachelorette party–I hate to keep going back to that–but one time when we were really, really, really stoned at Coachella or something dumb, we were sitting staring at this light fixture. And I just said to her after a lot of silence, “June, I want to marry a businessman.” So, years later, I mean, I did not really marry a businessman. But the stripper– She’s like, “We’ve got a businessman here.” And she had told him to dress in a suit, which you would think isn’t that hard to rustle up. But in fact, he was in fatigues. Hi!
Nicole [00:17:35] Sasheer’s back from her audition!
Casey [00:17:38] I have to say, I love this audition look.
Sasheer [00:17:42] Oh, thank you.
Casey [00:17:42] You look beautiful. Hi. How are you?
Sasheer [00:17:48] Hey there! I am supposed to be young.
Nicole [00:17:51] Oh, so that’s why you were in colors?
Sasheer [00:17:55] I usually wear earth tones. Yeah, you’re overalls. You could have been in that audition room, honestly.
Casey [00:18:00] And why wasn’t I?
Nicole [00:18:01] Uh oh.
Casey [00:18:04] I get all angry.
Nicole [00:18:06] You gotta drive back and ask why Casey wasn’t there.
Sasheer [00:18:08] It would take me so long.
Nicole [00:18:11] Okay. Our last question is, “What do you hope you’re both doing in 20 years?”
Casey [00:18:19] Oh, wow. I mean, I hope, you know, we still have lovers. And I hope our friendship–not to be cheesy–but I felt it’s gotten stronger. And we’ve always lived about three blocks from each other for, like, 17 years. And I hope we’re watching our kids, you know, grow and still in each other’s lives in the most meaningful way that we are now. I’m a great person.
Sasheer [00:18:43] I mentioned, like, planned communities before. And it scares Nicole. But I like the idea of having people you love growing together, raising kids together.
Casey [00:18:53] I 100% agree, and that is so missing from our culture.
Nicole [00:18:58] It is interesting that we don’t choose to live near friends and help them raise children. But I just don’t know what my place would be in this society as a woman without a partner and no children. Would I be watching the babes? Would I be taking the children for a walk?
Casey [00:19:13] Right. I know you’d find your way, but I hear you. I hear you.
Nicole [00:19:19] Well, that’s it.
Casey [00:19:21] Okay. You gonna bring Ms. June in?
Nicole [00:19:23] Yes. We’re gonna ask her the same questions!
Casey [00:19:28] Bye, guys!
Sasheer [00:19:28] Thank you.
Nicole [00:19:39] Okay. The second part of Besting It! Wait. Best–? Damn. Besting Each Other?
Sasheer [00:19:47] Besting Each Other. Yes.
Nicole [00:19:48] I truly can’t remember the segment we created.
June [00:19:51] Is this a test?
Nicole [00:19:54] We’re going to be grading you. But we just spoke to Casey Wilson, and now we’re speaking to her. Oh, wait. I didn’t have an intro for you. You’re on Grace and Frankie. You host a podcast called, “How Did This Get Made?” It’s June Diane Raphael! I said it correctly? I’ve been saying Raphael incorrectly. And then Casey corrected me. Again, me telling you a problem that you would not have known about.
June [00:20:23] Here I was thinking everything was fine.
Nicole [00:20:25] No, but I mispronounced your name earlier.
June [00:20:28] People don’t know my name.
Nicole [00:20:28] I’m so sorry.
June [00:20:31] No, I have accepted it. At this point, I actually really do accept both pronunciations. And I think people feel so badly when it’s not pronounced how it is supposed to be pronounced. But I genuinely don’t care. You know, and I don’t know. I’ve had people say–and I think it’s true–that it’s important to struggle through a name and to not make a name easier for people. But at the same time, I’m like, “I like Rafael. I’ve heard it my whole life.” I truly have no feelings attached to it being pronounced that way.
Sasheer [00:21:07] Did your parents, like, make a thing of like, “You have to have your peers call you the right name?”
June [00:21:12] Not at all. So, I just don’t have any feelings about it. But I know other people do. When they’re like, “I’ve been pronouncing it wrong!” I’m like, “It’s really okay.”
Nicole [00:21:26] Yeah. I had trouble with her name for a while because I saved it on my phone incorrectly. I think it was “S.I.” I was like, “Sisheer. Sisheer? No, that can’t be it.”
Sasheer [00:21:37] I had a teacher called me “Shazeer.” I think he was dyslexic. He brought the “Z” in from the– Like, there’s no “Z” in my first name. And my mom would–every parent-teacher meeting–just correct all the time and be like, “It’s Sasheer!” And then later in life, she wanted to change my name and was like, “Let me change the spelling so it’s easier for people.” I was like, “You were the one who taught me to take pride in my name and defend it till I die.” And now she’s like, “Let me put a dash in there.”
June [00:22:06] When my mom passed away, I started using my middle name–which was Diane–which I never really used before, which was her name. So, that’s important to me because that feels like such a nice way to honor her. But I don’t care; I don’t have any feelings about my last name.
Nicole [00:22:26] That’s a very sweet way to honor her. I really love that.
Sasheer [00:22:29] That’s really nice.
Nicole [00:22:30] I guess I gotta get my mom’s middle name going. “Nicole Lille Byer.” Doesn’t really flow!
Sasheer [00:22:36] You’re out!
Nicole [00:22:41] Okay, so how did you meet Casey?
June [00:22:45] So, I know what she said because we’ve said it before together. But the truth is, Casey and I were in the same acting studio at NYU. The old studio system at New York University was set up so that you were in class with 20 people. And there was another class of 20 people within one studio. And when we started off as freshmen at 18 years old, Casey was in the other class. And so, we just circled each other for a long time. And I remember she was in a sorority, which at NYU was not what you do. If you went to acting school, it was, like, not what you do. And I was like, “Oh no, that’s so sad. Like, what happened?” And I remember thinking she was way too much for me. I had a really hard time my freshman year. I was very scared and overwhelmed. And she was, like, getting people together for drinks every night and was organizing events. And I was like, “What’s that? And I’m frightened.” Like, I remember getting little pamphlets in our dorm room about, like, spring break in Acapulco and seeing, like, all-white teenage kids–flames behind them, colorful drinks, and stuff. And it terrified me. And not that she was that, but at that time she had much more energy and spirit. And I was, like, not someone who had spirit or was willing to rally around like, “We’re in this together.” I was just scared and really lonely. And so, my first reaction to her was fear that she might rest her eyes on me and I would also have to engage on that level–like, meet her at the energy level she was at, which was like, “The whole cast of the show is going out tonight!” And I was like, “No.” But when we did connect, which was in a clown class, and her light really shown on me and she reached out to me, I was like, “Oh, now understand what this warmth and inclusive, like, ‘come into my circle, you’re okay now.’”
Nicole [00:25:37] Aw.
June [00:25:37] I know. I’ll cry. I will cry… Uh oh.
Sasheer [00:25:38] No, it’s okay!
June [00:25:46] But just that spirit of like, “Come be a part of this” was so inclusive and so just wanting people to feel great and that we were going to be okay together and that we should have fun. And I realized I had completely misjudged it and projected all of my own fears onto her.
Sasheer [00:26:15] Damn, that’s beautiful.
Nicole [00:26:16] Yeah, it’s so beautiful because I feel like a lot of women grow up with the notion that there’s only one woman who can rise above everything. So, when a woman is nice to you, after you’ve been inundated with all of those ideologies, you’re like, “Well, nothing good can come of this. Why is she so cool and nice?” I mean, when I met you, I very much was like, “She’s too cool. She’s not going to want to be my friend. And I’m going to do it, I think. I’m going to make her my friend.” It was a very conscious thing. I was like, “She’s cool. She’s cool. You shouldn’t talk about that. She’s cool.”
Sasheer [00:26:52] Well, that’s what I felt, too. You talk a lot, and I felt like you. I was like, “I’m not going to match this energy.”
June [00:26:57] “There’s no space for me.”
Sasheer [00:26:58] Yes. Yeah. But there is!
June [00:27:01] Totally. And I’m so glad that I didn’t shut her down and that I allowed myself to be included in her life because once you are–and that’s the other thing I realized–she would never let you go, you know? Yeah.
Sasheer [00:27:27] How long do you think it took for you to, like, click in a way where you’re like, “Oh, we have a kinship”–past, like, “Oh, we’re just classmates.”
June [00:27:39] So the thing we bonded over immediately in that class was we had a teacher who– And when I say “clowning,” I mean, like, old school–we’re putting on red noses. We’re not speaking. There’s nothing verbal. We are doing full physical comedy. And we were in a class where every student had to sit, including the teacher. And you had to get up as your clown and make everyone laugh simultaneously, including the teacher. And you could not sit back down until that happened.
Sasheer [00:28:12] Ooh, boy. That’s a lot of pressure.
June [00:28:13] It was really a lot. And I was up at night. And I would try to plan things, but of course you couldn’t. And I’m really going to go into this, but your clown was really, like, the essence of you or what was most raw about you. And her clown was really angry. And my clown was really shy. I mean, there were kids there. There were students in the class who were up there for 45 minutes, full body sweat–just in puddles. And we would all try to laugh, but the teacher knew what was and was not authentic. But this thing about this teacher was that she, we both felt, was kinder to the boys in the class.
Nicole [00:29:09] Oh, of course.
Sasheer [00:29:10] Of course.
Nicole [00:29:10] Of course!
June [00:29:11] And we felt like she got them out of the Ring of Fire quicker. And, like, we felt she was much harder on us and didn’t think or didn’t invest in the women.
Sasheer [00:29:23] Well, women aren’t funny.
June [00:29:25] Well, we all know that, but it’s important to keep on saying it.
Sasheer [00:29:27] It really is.
June [00:29:27] Because I worry people forget. So, we connected over that, really, which was we both love doing comedy. We both loved the class. And we thought the work was… To this day, some of the best work I’ve seen was in that class. So, I think it informs so much of what we ended up both doing and being drawn to. But it was also a source of like, “There’s active discrimination going on here.” And we brought it to the school. And sort of our first experience together was really uniting over questioning this institutional power in the space we were in.
Sasheer [00:30:07] Wow. It’s amazing you brought it up.
Nicole [00:30:08] Yeah, truly. Was anything done about it?
June [00:30:10] No. I don’t think so. God, I don’t think so.
Nicole [00:30:16] I will say this. It does suck. But I do think that teacher was preparing you for the reality of being an actor because you just have to be funnier than men sometimes. I’ve gone in for many auditions for Darryl, and they’re like, “I don’t know. I guess it doesn’t have to be a man.” And then, you know, Darryl’s a Darryl when it’s cast, and you’re like, “Well, why did we pretend?”
June [00:30:38] And because I was working through my own internalized misogyny at that point, too, I think I probably needed Casey to be the one who was like, “The women in our class are amazing. Look at the work they’re doing.” And I was like, “Oh… Oh!” Like, I don’t even know if I was on my own journey. So, she was really the one and–and continues to really, like, create a whole worldview for me, which was like, “Women’s stories are funnier. What we’re interested in, what we say, what we do is funny.” And I was like, “Oh, I’ve always thought so. But I didn’t have anyone saying that.” Yeah.
Nicole [00:31:24] I love that. What’s your favorite memory of traveling together?
June [00:31:28] Oh, gosh. I mean, I know she’s going to have so much to say about that one. But we had a live sketch show called Rode Hard and Put Away Wet, and we were booked. I think I handled all of the admin and travel portion of it. And we were booked, I think, in Charleston. And we got off the airplane. We were sitting… These were crazy times–like, just heady, heady times. Nobody had a functioning credit card. Phones were being shut off on the daily. It was like, “Who has minutes left?” And telling people to forward all the calls to Casey’s line. And getting money from her dad. It was just a time of madness. And during that time of madness, we were booked at the Charleston Comedy Festival. We get out, we’re waiting for the van to pick us up and the people to pick us up. And we’re sitting out there, and I was like, “Casey?” And it was so hard to break to her. I’m like, “I don’t know if we’re in the right city.”
Sasheer [00:32:27] Oh my God.
June [00:32:37] And she was like, “Where are we now?” And I was like, “I don’t know. But I just have this voice that I’m not feeling confident that we’re in the right place.” And we had to go up to a gentleman–I’ll never forget–and simply ask, “Where are we?” It’s a crazy question to ask. This was before, like…
Nicole [00:33:00] You could just check on your phone.
June [00:33:01] Yes. Before you, like, you could find out. We had to ask someone, like, “Where…? What land do you call this? What’s your understanding of where we are right now?”
Nicole [00:33:12] Were you in the right place?
June [00:33:14] So we were in the right place overall, but we had flown to, like, the airport that was much further away. So, they had sent– So there was some miscommunication. But I was like, “When we had to really think about, like, ‘What state are we in?’” So yeah, it was a time where details were just, like, mysterious.
Sasheer [00:33:36] That’s a scary feeling.
June [00:33:37] It was a wild feeling. It’s like, “I’m sober. Very sober. I don’t know where I am. I couldn’t tell you.”
Nicole [00:33:47] When I tour a lot and TSA is like, “Where are you headed?” I’m like, “Oh, uh… What does it say on that ticket?” And then they’re like, “Are you a terrorist?” And I was like, “If I was, what a bad terrorist. I don’t know what I’m bombing.
June [00:33:59] I just have no idea.
Sasheer [00:34:01] I’ll take any plane.
June [00:34:03] I have had experience with drivers sometimes when they pick me up to go somewhere and they’re like, “So what airport are you going to?” I’m like, “I don’t know.”
Nicole [00:34:13] Whichever one it says on your little sheet.
June [00:34:14] “Is there an email or something you can refer to?
Nicole [00:34:18] Sometimes they don’t and you’re like, “Well, I guess I’ll call the contact.” What is your favorite thing about Casey?
June [00:34:29] There’s a lot. I mean, Casey and I have known each other since we were 18. We’ve gone through a lot together personally and together professionally. I think the thing that I love the most about her is how big her feelings are. How she loves so deeply and feels so deeply. And they’re on parade, you know? And I’ve learned so much about that and being okay with that in myself. But I love that about her–that she lives life feeling so much and expressing so much. The good, the bad, the ugly–just all of it–I’ve found really, like, liberating to be around.
Sasheer [00:35:33] Do you feel like it’s rubbed off on you at all?
June [00:35:35] Definitely. I mean, not to get too much into our astrology and our signs. I mean, we’ve done full readings together to kind of understand it. But she’s a Scorpio with a Capricorn Rising. And I’m a Capricorn and Scorpio Rising. So, an astrologist would say we’re literally getting from each other the exact things that we really need. And our lesson is to wrestle with what’s hard. And I think that’s true. I mean, one of the things I loved about her early on and why I’m so glad she looked at me in that class and decided, “I’m coming for you,” and I had no choice in the matter– But I’m so glad she did because she was ambitious to a level that I couldn’t even… I was like, Maybe I’ll do Three Sisters off-Broadway? And she was like, “I’m going to be on SNL. I’m going to do this. We’re moving to L.A. We’re going to be creating a show. It’s going to go here.” And I was just along for that experience. And I was pretty ambitious, too, but almost embarrassed about it. Or it was harder for me to, like, step into because of my background. I felt like that wasn’t right or that I was taking up too much space. And so, to be with someone as a friend and also professionally who was so willing to demand to be seen was very helpful for me. And it changed the course of my life.
Nicole [00:37:16] I love that, too! All these answers are so heartwarming and kind. I really do love talking about other people’s friendship because there’s a reason why people click, bond, and are together. What is Casey’s favorite thing about you?
June [00:37:31] Oh, gosh. You know, I think Casey thinks I’m, like, a very hard worker. And, I mean, I think there’s a lot more that she appreciates. I think one of her favorite things about me probably is the level of intimacy we can go to–and the depth of the conversations and the sort of exploration of feelings that don’t scare me. You know, the big feelings that don’t scare me that I hope she feels safe bringing to me. We’ve also both experienced a lot of grief in our lives, and we really can connect on that. And you know, she lost her mom suddenly. I lost my mom suddenly a year and a half later. Then my dad passed away years later. So, we’ve had children at the same time. We’ve had so much sort of death and birth–professionally, too–that I think I’ve been able to– We’ve both been able to. But I think what she would probably say about me–and what’s so special about our relationship–is we’ve both been able to really not shy away from that.
Sasheer [00:38:53] Yeah. That’s important.
June [00:38:56] Yeah. We’re all there for it all.
Nicole [00:38:58] You’re not fair-weather friends.
June [00:38:59] And not everybody can be, it turns out.
Sasheer [00:39:04] Very true.
Nicole [00:39:04] What is something that you do that drives Casey crazy?
Casey [00:39:09] Oh, gosh.
June [00:39:11] This is a hard one. I feel like I’m going to get this wrong. What do I do that drives her crazy? I mean, I think she thinks… Well, I know she’s disturbed. I don’t know if it drives her crazy, but I know she’s disturbed at the hours I keep–that I’m like up at 5 a.m. I think it sort of drives her crazy that my work ethic… By the way, hers is insane. And I don’t think this is necessarily true, but I think she always comments on me being just, like, a machine of productivity. That’s not a great answer, but I can’t think of a tic or something that… I mean, not an actual tic.
Sasheer [00:40:04] That kind of sounds like when you’re doing a job interview, and they’re like, “What’s your worst quality?” And you’re like, “That I work too hard.”
June [00:40:10] I know! I’m really struggling. I’m sure there are a million things. I genuinely don’t know what they are. She’s been a good friend to not reveal it to me.
Sasheer [00:40:16] Or maybe you don’t annoy her.
Nicole [00:40:18] Yeah, maybe.
June [00:40:19] I doubt that’s possible. Oh, I know! Of course, I know. She thinks I talked too softly.
Nicole [00:40:25] Oh!
Sasheer [00:40:26] Like, too quietly?
June [00:40:27] Yes. She’s like, “What are you saying?” She goes crazy.
Nicole [00:40:43] Which of you would do better on Survivor?
Casey [00:40:48] Who?
June [00:40:51] That’s a tough one. I think I would. I think I have a bit more access to my… Now, listen, Casey would fight physically and has access to her primal self, too. But I believe that I have more endurance in, like, rugged conditions. Casey’s like, “Four Seasons or bust.”
Nicole [00:41:21] What do you hope you guys are both doing in 20 years?
Casey [00:41:25] Oh, what a great question. I hope that we are both enjoying grown children, their health, and our family’s health. And I hope that we’re all together and enjoying life. I really want our families to be intertwined. I want to feel like, “Oh, we go on vacations together. Our kids grow up together. We are a part of the same community and unit.” And I was about to say, “I hope we’re working.” But I don’t know. I don’t know what I want to be doing. I don’t know.
Sasheer [00:42:13] Yeah.
June [00:42:14] The longer I’m in this the longer I’m like, “When can I get out?”
Nicole [00:42:22] I mean, it’s soul searching.
June [00:42:25] It’s a lot. I know the retirement age is usually 65, but…
Nicole [00:42:31] Maybe tomorrow? Maybe I never work again starting tomorrow.
June [00:42:37] I don’t know. I don’t want to be doing these hours.
Nicole [00:42:43] It’s long hours, and you’re away, especially if you’re, like– She was in Atlanta for two months.
June [00:42:49] I’m sorry.
Nicole [00:42:54] I had just gotten her here. I got her to L.A. from New York. And I said, “My friend is here forever.” And then she was like, “Bye, bye!” I was sad. It’s back to late night phone calls, being like, “When do you come back here?” And it made me so sad. And then I came up with bonus questions. Okay.
Sasheer [00:43:11] Wait, did we ask what does she–?
Nicole [00:43:12] No. I skipped that with Casey by accident.
Sasheer [00:43:14] Okay, then we’ll skip it.
Nicole [00:43:16] I’m not good alone.
Sasheer [00:43:16] You’re doing great!
Nicole [00:43:19] Yeah, I added questions and skipped one.
Sasheer [00:43:23] Things have changed! I was gone for half an hour, and the whole show’s different.
Nicole [00:43:28] It’s now called “Hello, We Like Shirts!” Okay, what is the best gift you’ve gotten Casey?
June [00:43:36] Casey Okay, so let me just say this. Gift giving is not one of my love languages, so I am not a good gift giver. She’s an excellent one. So, I’ve struggled with it. I struggle with it with my husband. We have to talk about it in couple’s therapy. I didn’t grow up getting gifts.
Sasheer [00:43:58] Same.
June [00:43:59] Yeah. I’m just like, “Oh.” And I don’t like stuff. I just have trouble with gifts. So, I’m trying to think of what– Oh, I remember, and I don’t know if she’s going to remember this. But when we first moved to L.A., I got her a coffee pot. And I felt like that was setting her up for success here.
Sasheer [00:44:20] That very adult.
Nicole [00:44:24] That’s very, very adult. Like, “You’re going to wake up in the morning, and you’re going to want coffee.”
June [00:44:27] “You’re going to want coffee and we can do that for ourselves.” In New York, we lived in St Mark’s in a studio apartment that was converted to a three bedroom.
Nicole [00:44:38] Oh my God.
June [00:44:40] You couldn’t put a suitcase down in my room.
Nicole [00:44:42] Whoa.
June [00:44:43] And Casey had a double bed, and you would just walk into the bed.
Nicole [00:44:45] Yep.
Sasheer [00:44:45] Wow.
June [00:44:45] So we had a Starbucks right around the block on Second Avenue and that’s where we had our coffee every day. And I remember it being a big thing, like, “We live in L.A. now. We do things in our homes.” Meanwhile, her home was a terrible apartment on Cahuenga and the 101. Yeah, it was not great. But I think that’s what I was trying to impart. Like, “We can make a coffee for ourselves.”
Nicole [00:45:18] Meaningful gifts. I give people gifts that I want.
June [00:45:22] I get it. I like cards. I will always take a card.
Nicole [00:45:24] I do like a nice card. Also, my mom loved giving gifts. And I saw how much work that was, and I was like, “Not for me.”
June [00:45:31] It’s not for me.
Nicole [00:45:32] I don’t want that. That’s a lot of work. And then when people go, “Oh, your voice went too high. You’re not happy about this.”
June [00:45:39] I know! There’s a formality to that moment that I don’t love. I feel like it puts a lot of pressure on the receiver to behave a certain way. I’m like, “Open this in your own time.”
Nicole [00:45:52] What’s the best gift that Casey has given you?
June [00:45:55] Oh, gosh. Well, she just got me a reading with our astrologist, Heidi Rose Robbins, that I really needed. And then she actually just recently got me… The domestic realm doesn’t come easy to me. It feels like I have to really work at it. And so, she framed a picture of me and my kids from Halloween, and I was like, “I’m so happy to have this. How did you do it? What were the steps?” It feels so far away to me.
Nicole [00:46:40] Yeah, whenever I go to her house, I’m like, “You did all this yourself?” It’s crazy. She got a lampshade, like, up in the ceiling. I was like, “How do you do that?”
Sasheer [00:46:47] I like being handy. I like making a home with my stuff that feels very, like, me.
June [00:46:54] And I like the experience of being in that home. I can’t, like, do it, though. It’s very hard for me.
Nicole [00:47:02] It’s very hard for me, too. I had to get a decorator. I said, “I don’t know how to do one thing.”
June [00:47:06] Oh, there’s no other option.
Nicole [00:47:10] She’s very cool. She’s like, “Nicole’s house will be dope.” I love Caitlin. She’s great.
June [00:47:14] That’s amazing. That’s money well spent.
Nicole [00:47:16] I think so.
June [00:47:17] Absolutely.
Nicole [00:47:17] It makes me so happy. Okay, we got to get Casey back in here and go through those questions. Now we got June and Casey here together. We’re going to do a speed round because children need to be picked up!
Sasheer [00:47:38] Lives need to be lived!
Nicole [00:47:44] We asked, “How did you two meet?” And you both said, “Clown class at NYU. Although June talked about how you guys were in different–”
Casey [00:47:54] Oh my God. I see already June is slamming me all over. But I guess “intimidated” is a good thing. It’s like, “You’re so great I’m scared.”
Nicole [00:48:01] Kind of. Actually, not “kind of,” that’s what it was.
Casey [00:48:04] Oh! I am so sorry. I read on.
Nicole [00:48:08] You were so wonderful, and June was intimidated by how inclusive and kind you were.
Casey [00:48:12] That’s so nice, and I stand corrected.
Nicole [00:48:13] And then you locked in on her during clown class while she was silently, I guess, trying to clown and make everybody happy. And June was like, “I had no choice. I had to be Casey’s friend.”
Sasheer [00:48:22] And she’s thankful for that.
June [00:48:23] That’s correct.
Nicole [00:48:24] And then your favorite memory of traveling together? Casey said a bachelorette party in Palm Springs, second day. June challenged everyone on how they presented themselves. Which is my favorite thing because you were in here in a beautiful white suit. So, you’re just like, “Everyone, step it the fuck up.”
Casey [00:48:43] Can I just pipe in here? The second memory I had was about that trip, and I told you when June was trying to rent different cars.
Nicole [00:48:49] Yes. The comedy tour in Charleston. You didn’t know if you were in the right city.
June [00:48:53] Remember when we sat in the airport and I was like, “I’m not clear on where we are.”
Casey [00:48:56] I was like, “Is it South Carolina or North Carolina?”
Nicole [00:49:03] What’s your favorite thing about your friend? Casey said good boundaries. Very loyal. A moral compass. Funny and compassionate. And June said Casey has big feelings. You love deeply, you feel deeply, you live life with so much feeling, and your ambition.
Casey [00:49:23] Oh, thank you. I feel the way you retyped mine sounded less enthusiastic. Let me go back and listen to the podcast.
Nicole [00:49:33] What is your friend’s favorite thing about you? Casey said, “I think she thinks I’m fun, I’m empathetic, same sense of humor, and it’s special to be friends for so long.” June said, “The intimacy we have.” June isn’t scared by big feelings. And you’ve had so many similar things happen to each other at the same time. What is something that you do that drives your friend crazy? Casey said, “I have no grasp on technology and it messes up dates, times, and anything technical.” And that June rolls her eyes when she befriends toxic people. Oh, and you can’t see her, but both of them leaned back and cackled in unison. And it was perfect to watch. And then June said Casey is disturbed by the hours she keeps and her work ethic. She’s a machine. And that she talks too softly.
Casey [00:50:29] That’s a mean one. No one can hear you. I hope people at home notice that.
Nicole [00:50:37] Who would do better on Survivor? Casey said June and that she would be dead in four minutes. Actually dead. June said, “I would! I’ve got more stamina and ruggedness in those conditions,” which is so funny! And then, you guys had the same answer for what you’re both doing in 20 years. Casey said, “I hope we still have lovers, we’re watching our kids grow, and our friendship is as meaningful as it is now.” June said, “Both enjoying grown children, their family’s health, together enjoying life, our families are intertwined, going on vacations together. The kids grow up–same family and unit.” And then I asked bonus questions. What is the best present your friend has gotten for you? Casey said, “Astrological readings for an astrological partnership.
Casey [00:51:20] You said that, too?
Nicole [00:51:26] And then June said the reading with astrologist Heidi Rose Robbins.
Casey [00:51:31] You guys, I mean, it doesn’t seem you need any counseling through the stars, but I would love to try it.
Nicole [00:51:36] But I don’t know my rising moon because I have no idea what time I was born.
June [00:51:40] Well, you do need that.
Nicole [00:51:42] I have no idea.
Casey [00:51:42] Let’s call some hospitals and drill down.
Nicole [00:51:45] Well it doesn’t say it on my birth certificate.
Casey [00:51:47] That’s strange.
Nicole [00:51:48] My birth certificate just says my name and that, like, I’m here.
Casey [00:51:53] They give us, like, a three-day window.
Sasheer [00:51:54] Yeah. They’re like, “It felt like she was here the whole time. I don’t know.”
Casey [00:51:59] “She’s omnipresent.” Where were you born?
Nicole [00:52:02] Riverview Medical Center in Redbank, New Jersey.
Casey [00:52:05] Can someone look into that?
June [00:52:05] I’ve never heard of such a thing. They were just like, “We did enough! We got most of it.”
Casey [00:52:13] “Why do we need to know so exactly?”
Nicole [00:52:15] I don’t know if anyone would know because I think it was just my parents in the room.
Casey [00:52:20] But does your mom have any touchstone for a time? Day, night?
Nicole [00:52:23] Well, she dead. So, I can’t ask.
Casey [00:52:27] Look, I’m right there with you.
Nicole [00:52:29] We could do a seance.
Casey [00:52:29] We all have questions.
Sasheer [00:52:31] And that’s what you would ask. She’d be like, “You wasting my time. That’s what you wanted to ask me? What time you were born?”
Casey [00:52:40] We’re getting to numbers and data points?”
Nicole [00:52:42] Wait, we got to finish this. These guys need to be picked up! What is the best present you’ve gotten your friend? Casey said June was eight months pregnant, so she threw a breakfast. And then led her back home and misled her that it would be touching and tearful. But then it was a stripper just right on a Sunday afternoon. June said, “Gifts are not my love language. But when we first got to L.A., I got Casey a coffeepot. I think I set her up for success here.”
Casey [00:53:10] I don’t, but I guess I owe a lot to that pot. That pot means a lot. Thank you.
Nicole [00:53:17] Oh, boy.
Casey [00:53:18] It’s strange when someone’s like, “That’s the most meaningful gift,” and you don’t even recall it.
June [00:53:21] I knew it wasn’t going to sit with you today, but I do think we’re seeing the effects of it.
Casey [00:53:31] Thank you. I’m post-pot now. Thank you.
Nicole [00:53:32] Okay. Thank you guys so much.
June [00:53:35] Thank you so much for having us.
Casey [00:53:35] It was so much fun. Sorry to run.
Nicole [00:53:37] No, please go pick up your kids.
June [00:53:39] And you should have astrologer Heidi Rose Robbins on. She can work within a window.
Nicole [00:53:44] Okay.
Casey [00:53:45] And you might be between two sides and that’s…
June [00:53:48] And she’ll discuss that.
Casey [00:53:49] And when she meets you, she will be able to tell you.
June [00:53:52] Also sort of intuit what feels right.
Nicole [00:53:53] Kimmie-on-the-keys, can you write down that name?
Casey [00:53:55] Heidi Rose Robbins. This will be really fun. Bye, guys!
Sasheer [00:54:02] If you want to ask us any questions, you can email us or call us. Email us at firstname.lastname@example.org. Or call us at 424-645-7–double boobies–003.
Nicole [00:54:20] Tits. Bye, bye.
Sasheer [00:54:20] Bye!
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