November 26, 2020
This week, we are thankful for vaginas, labias, and vulvas with author and gynecologist Dr. Jen Gunter. She joins Jameela to answer questions about the history of misunderstanding vaginas, the do’s and don’ts of feminine hygiene, how to handle pap smears, a gynecological view on both abortions and WAP, and Dr. Jen Gunter’s book – The Vagina Bible.
34 — Dr. Jen Gunter
Jameela [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh, with Jameela Jamil. I hope you’re OK, and especially if you’re in America and you may be just did or didn’t get to spend time with your family. Are you all right? I wish I could hear your answer. Both a very stressful one not being around the people that you love in this incredibly stressful, lonely year. That is so hard. And two, if you had to either spend all day on Zoom with them as you ate your dry turkey in your house, or if you had to be with them in a room, maybe you traveled to bubble with them. Jesus Christ. It’s not easy for everyone, however much you’ve missed your family, maybe you’ve lost some of your patience settings that you had acquired when you were a more kind of socially etiquette gifted person before this lockdown. I know that I’ve definitely I’ve said it before. I’ve devolved during this year. I’m leaving this with zero new skills and actually less skills than I entered into lockdown. Anyway, I hope that you have got some time now for yourself to breathe, to recover and to gather your thoughts. Maybe maybe you’ve used this time to work out what it is that you want to well, maybe work on in the next year, be that yourself, be that your life or be that relationship with your family and maybe where you’re living and what you’re doing and and are you happy? I think sometimes these things can be quite a good check in a marker of, OK, another year has gone by, where am I, how do I feel? What am I doing? So just some thoughts. I, I did Hanks’ giving, which is is my Thanksgiving where I am today with all of the sort of the darker side of the history of what Thanksgiving is. And instead I just celebrate Tom Hanks’ life with my friends, and we watch Tom Hanks movies that we love and we eat all of the normal food with the trimmings. We deviate slightly because we’re all shit at cooking and we don’t really deserve to call ourselves adults. But that’s what I did and it was incredibly fun. So next year, if you’re looking for a new thing to do on this odd, dark historical day, maybe you could try that. It’s very fun. I do it every single year. Anyway, let’s talk about vaginas. Are you ready? I’ve wanted to talk about this so much since I started this podcast and I finally managed to get hold of my favorite gynecologist and one of my favorite voices online, Dr. Jen Gunter. Maybe you already know her from following me because I constantly repost her work. But she’s such a feminist icon. She is someone who has democratized and demystified and de-taboo-athied, the conversation around such an important part of our lives, not just only in how we live, our you know, how we live our own lives, how other people see us, how other people treat us. We have been taught to pretend that this incredibly vital organ is not there. And I’m not talking about the vagina. I’m talking about the vulva. I’m talking about the late. I’m talking about all of it. I decided to ask Jen Gunter loads of your questions, loads of my questions about her, her path through gynecology, how male orientated all of women’s health care has always been, and all of the questions that she most gets as a gynecologist from worried women who have been kept in the dark for such a long time, about our pleasure, about how our bodies work, about things like vaginismus or things like difficulty having sex or reaching orgasms, or difficulty in accepting our bodies or going through menopause, etc., etc., etc. All of the terrible ways in which women are conned into thinking we have to fix our vaginas, our vaginas that are not broken, that are as our bodies need them and intend them to be. We talk about the entire giant market, even that women promote now that is teaching us that we need to put different scents in our vaginas. We need to hate the way that they smell, hate the way that they look, hate the way that they move and and and and hate everything about them. We must try to fix them and cover them and scent them. We talk about that entire corrupt industry and why it exists, who is perpetuating it, who benefits from it and and why it’s so incredibly dangerous, not just for us emotionally, but truly physically on a long term basis sometimes. We really I mean, we just there’s nowhere we didn’t go. I think we even talked about the asshole briefly. But I hope you enjoy this episode. I think it’s going to answer a load of questions for you. She blew my mind. I had no idea until I read her book, The Vagina Bible, which you have to go out and buy because it’s truly one of the most exceptional things I’ve ever read. But also, when I had this conversation, you get to hear me have true sort of light bulb switched on moments of of horror in this podcast. As I learn things about myself, my body and my experience with other gynecologists. She’s a bloody saint and I’m so lucky I got to have her here. She’s funny. She’s cool. We need so many more gynecologists like her in this world. And also just human beings send this to every woman, man or non binary person, you know, because frankly, the world would be a better place if we all understood the god damn vagina better. Here’s Dr. Jen Gunter.
Jameela [00:05:25] You need little to no introduction. You are the queen of the vagina and the vulva, you have an agenda that I cannot wait to get into with you. Dr. Jan Gunter, welcome to I Weigh.
Dr. Gunter [00:05:37] Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Jameela [00:05:39] Thank you so much for being here. You are one of my favorite follows on Twitter. You have been for a couple of years now. And I, I am so excited to talk all things the vagina with you. You are a gynecologist. You are not just vaginally obsessed, although probably both and I as an English person will admit to having been formally, vaginally awkward and afraid, horrified, totally patriarchally soaked in my opinion of the vagina. I was very squeamish when I picked up your book called The Vagina Bible. In fact, I left it as late as I could to read it before this chat because I was so scared. And upon reading it, my whole world has changed and my whole mind has shifted. What I have started to understand how many old wives tales I realize I have believed. The history of our societal relationship with the vagina. This book, you answer every question myself or my friends have ever had. It came out last year and it is just so revolutionary to the point where I can’t get it back because all of my male friends have stolen it and keep passing it around between themselves. And now I am without my copy. So I just would love to take this opportunity to talk to you about everything that you know. First things first, what is your vagenda?
Dr. Gunter [00:07:13] My vagenda is for every every person to know how their body works, and especially for women who have been marginalized by science, by society to have an understanding of their body function because you can’t be empowered about your health without accurate information.
Jameela [00:07:31] Yeah, I was I was talking to my boyfriend this morning about it, and I was like, it’s kind of been like the deep blue sea, you know, it’s like what’s out there. That’s how a lot of women feel about our own reproductive systems. We don’t really know or what’s going on or what it looks like or how to protect it. We just know what we’ve been told to do that would be most pleasing for a straight man.
Dr. Gunter [00:07:50] Right, exactly. I think that so many images that are out there are just so false. So many you know, I for example, with my kids, I have a seventeen year old twin boys. And every time a sex scene comes on in a movie, I start counting from the second the sex is supposed to start till the female orgasm is supposed to happen. And it’s usually like five seconds.
Jameela [00:08:11] Yeah, but that’s accurate. That’s that’s completely accurate. No one has to- no yeah she’s already instantly completely wet and comes immediately. I know I do. So the same I’m sure same with you and everyone listening.
Dr. Gunter [00:08:24] Absolutely just see the glory of the penis and oh my God you’re ninety nine percent of the way.
Jameela [00:08:28] A hundred percent.
Dr. Gunter [00:08:32] So my kids are like oh my God. You’re not timing again are you. I’m like, yes, yes I am. And so you know, when your whole life is surrounded by imagery like that and you go to the doctor’s office and you’re you’re not given any factual information to start with. And, you know, every woman’s magazine is just obsessed with telling you about how to fix your nonexistent odor problem. It’s really easy to see how it’s such a steep climb to get actual factual information.
Jameela [00:08:58] But if they keep us in the dark about it, it’s so easy for them to sell us products that we don’t if we don’t understand the actual organ itself or the system itself, then we don’t know what is good or isn’t good for it. And they rely upon that mystique that they have created out of shame and taboo and stigma. First of all, this is one of the things that I found so I couldn’t put the book down from the beginning because you take us through the history of gynecology. And I would love for you to just impart that wisdom upon everyone else and tell us the history of how short the history is of medicine’s investigation into the female reproductive system.
Dr. Gunter [00:09:39] Yeah, I mean, so for Western medicine is built on Hippocratic medicine, ancient Greek medicine, and the whole sort of underpinnings is that women are basically defective men. I mean, that’s you know, that’s the hypothesis is that, you know, we’re we’re leaky versions of men and for example, they thought menstruation was the excess fluid coming out each month.
Jameela [00:10:01] Failure fluid.
Dr. Gunter [00:10:03] Yeah, it’s failure fluid. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And you know what happened when you got pregnant, that failure fluid backed up into your breasts. And I think this is such a key example of absence of diversity. Right. So if there’s no woman around in sort of ancient medicine to say, hey, you know what comes out of my breasts actually feeds the babies, it’s milk. You know that might actually have changed the conversation, so, you know, in ancient times there were no they didn’t dissect women’s bodies, they didn’t examine women’s bodies. And so basically they would physicians and scholars would hear what women said about their bodies. And they say, OK, well, let me mansplain that to you with my world order.
Jameela [00:10:46] And part of this was because it felt unreligious to be kind of to touch the the private parts and quote unquote, of a woman you are not married to. And so that was part of that was part of the kind of awkwardness around even investigating it.
Dr. Gunter [00:11:01] Right. But that also it’s really fascinating that also inability to sort of have a man around a naked woman also has shaped our beauty ideals, because if you look at ancient Greek sculptures, they’re mostly men’s bodies that have then had female heads tacked on. So talk about an impossible beauty ideal. You know, women, naked women couldn’t sit for sculptures. And so they would take a male body. They would sculpt that and then add what they thought were ideal breasts and ideal hips and things. So that we’ve been sort of there hasn’t been any accurate information about our bodies from the inside out, I think, since the beginning.
Jameela [00:11:35] And so when do you feel like things changed? When did we start to see, you know, I think who are you talking about who had created an anatomical version that was as good as anything that rivals anything we have now?
Dr. Gunter [00:11:48] Oh, I mean, so there is a big sort of, I would say, advancement in anatomy in the 15 and 1600s with the Renaissance. And it wasn’t because medicine was interested in knowing more, it was because artists wanted to paint more accurate bodies, which is also a great example of why the arts and medicine should be more connected. Traditionally, we’ve said it should only be you should have hardcore science background, but it shows how art is actually very valuable in medicine. And so once you started getting greater anatomic knowledge, people started studying and and dissecting female bodies. And so really by the early eighteen hundreds, we had a pretty accurate anatomical understanding. You know, things like hormones hadn’t been discovered. And so we didn’t understand how it all worked. But then along came Freud and the Victorians and this whole sort of incredibly impressive, oppressive belief of female sexuality. And that really, I think, knocked everything back and mean I don’t want to sort of leave people with the impression that in the late seventeen hundreds, this was like equality for all in medicine. But at least we had accurate factual anatomical information. And really everything just went sideways with Freud and the Victorians.
Jameela [00:13:01] I mean, Sigmund Freud. What a bastard. So many fucking lies. I’m going to beat him up.
Dr. Gunter [00:13:08] Yeah. I mean this whole myth of that, the vaginal orgasm and clitoral orgasms, and we still see it today. And and think about that. This is over one hundred years old. This has been disproven for a long time that that that we know that when women have an orgasm, whether it’s from penile penetration or some other sex toy in the vagina or it’s from external manipulation, it’s all the same machinery you’re just accessing at a different point. It’s not a different sort of orgasm, structurally persay. And yet women are made to feel as if they’re orgasming without a penis, that there’s something wrong with them.
Jameela [00:13:44] One hundred percent. Yeah, you had a percentage that was something like under 30 percent of of vaginal penetration will lead to orgasm. And I know so many women who feel as though they have failed and therefore fake an orgasm because they’re just like, what’s wrong with me? Am I missing the G spot, the magical G spot I’m supposed to have? And also, men feel like women have failed when they don’t come from vaginal penetration and just they feel a bit like disappointed in you afterwards.
Dr. Gunter [00:14:16] Yeah, I mean, sex has become very metric different. Right. And and this is again, gets back to what we were talking about, about this lack of accurate information. If people don’t understand how to have good sex, then where else do they go? They go to TV shows. They go to-
Jameela [00:14:33] Porn Hub.
Dr. Gunter [00:14:33] Yeah. And, you know, they it’s amazing to me how many people mistake everything that they see on TV or film about sex, whether it’s pornography or whether it’s, you know, something that’s just insinuated in a TV show that they think that that’s real. And it’s like, no, that’s all acting.
Jameela [00:14:53] I know. It’s funny. Like, it’s I almost wish everyone was dressed like they were in Avatar, you know, so they’d be like a clear sign that this is a fantasy. I feel like that’s that’s a way that we are able to engage with animation or with sci fi, is the fact that it’s very clearly not real. It’s not real human beings. It’s someone else’s imagination. I think everyone should be blue in pornography. It’s just something that I feel. OK. So as a gynecologist and also as someone who is such a prevalent and and outgoing online presence, what would you say are some of the most questions that you get on or offline from women about their bodies?
Dr. Gunter [00:15:37] I think the biggest question I get is about vaginal discharge. You know, women have been so I would say in culture to believe that that is abnormal to have witnessed between their legs. And I think that’s probably a really, really pervasive question that I get. How much discharge is normal? Is what’s going on normal? I think that that’s that’s a big that, you know, and that gets back to this culture of shame. Right. Like a wet vagina is a sign of a loose woman as someone who’s undesirable to society, to this patriarchal definition of what a woman should be. And it’s amazing how these things are still ingrained in us. And that is sort of generational. And so but, you know, the subliminal messaging is everywhere. If you go to a drugstore and you see shelves and shelves of products designed to tame a normal vagina, you’re going to maybe think that yours is a problem.
Jameela [00:16:30] Yeah. One hundred percent tame and scent it.
Dr. Gunter [00:16:33] Yeah, exactly. I’m like, it’s a vagina, not a pina colada.
Jameela [00:16:37] Is it a pina colada?
Dr. Gunter [00:16:39] Well there is some overlap. I mean, tasty. Fun.
Jameela [00:16:42] Yeah. Lovely. But that’s why that’s why, you know, you and I have both been very vocally supportive of the old WAP, of the wonderful messaging of Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion. You felt like you felt very pleased that they were endorsing what you’ve been saying all along, which is that a wet ass pussy is something to be to be glorified and adored and not something to be ashamed of. And so, yeah, this is I mean, truly honestly, since reading before reading your book, I would have felt so shy, you having this conversation. And now I’m just I just want to scream about it to everyone. And so and so I think that one of the things that I found so interesting about your book was you explaining not only what you know, how normal all these bodily functions are, but where they come from, which gland or which part of the body and why they exist. And is there any advice you have to anyone who might be struggling with the amount of vaginal discharge that they have and for them to know that this isn’t always a sign of some sort of infection or yeast overgrowth.
Dr. Gunter [00:17:45] Yeah. So you know what I say to people is, is that has there been a change from what you normally experience? Have you been with a new sexual partner where you might be concerned that you’ve contracted a sexually transmitted infection? Because certainly that can sometimes present as a discharge. But is there an odor? Has the color changed? And those were things that definitely are probably worth checking out if they’re if they’re lasting for more than a day or two. But so those and I have actually a video I put up on my my web page and on YouTube a while back, I just showed what the normal amount of discharge is, two to three milliliters, and that’s almost a panty liner completely soaked. And people are just shocked when they see that video. And I do that in the office. I’ll pull out a syringe and I’ll fill it up with some fluid and I’ll pull iodine in the fluids so you can see it on a paddle and show people how much one or two milliliters really is. And I think it’s really important we talk about it. A few years ago on Instagram, there was this like underwear challenge where women were showing their underwear at the end of the day to brag that they didn’t have any discharge.
Jameela [00:18:46] What?!
Dr. Gunter [00:18:46] Yes! Yes.
Jameela [00:18:49] Oh my God.
Dr. Gunter [00:18:51] And I’m like, you know, if you don’t want to see it, just don’t wear black underwear. But I mean, it’s normal. It’s it’s I that’s one of the reasons why I love the movie Obvious Child that was out a few years ago because they actually had a real sort of panty discharge scene. And I was like, wooo! In the audience ’cause it was just so great to see a sex scene with underwear that had a big streak of discharge on it.
Jameela [00:19:16] Yeah, a hundred percent.
Dr. Gunter [00:19:17] I thought that was awesome.
Jameela [00:19:18] Yeah, it’s so revolutionary. It’s such a shame that that’s considered revolutionary, although. Yeah. And so let’s also talk about squirting.
Dr. Gunter [00:19:27] OK.
Jameela [00:19:29] It’s piss?
Dr. Gunter [00:19:29] Yes, pretty much, yeah, so which is fine, I mean, sex is supposed to be wet and messy and fluids are going to come out. And it’s always amazing to me that that when you when you try to explain that it could be urine, that people get offended, I’m like, well, with semen comes out of a dude’s penis, like, how is that not like a gross bodily fluid?
Jameela [00:19:49] Is there any urine in semen?
Dr. Gunter [00:19:52] I don’t think so. But I don’t I don’t really spend a lot of time studying men’s junk so somebody else can write The Penis Bible, the whole world, everything’s the Penis Bible.
Jameela [00:20:03] The Bible.
Dr. Gunter [00:20:04] The Bible is The Penis Bible exactly.
Jameela [00:20:08] OK. So yeah so that’s again, it’s nothing to be ashamed of. But also that you know, I don’t think a lot of men know this. And then they make people you know, they kind of some men really want to achieve the sort of Bellagio fountain as Whitney Cummings calls it effect after sex, but then also don’t want to believe that that is essentially urine it’s the emptying of the bladder.
Dr. Gunter [00:20:31] Yeah. And I mean, it’s really it’s a kind of a fascinating concept. So I think most people don’t understand that when you have an orgasm, what’s really happening sort of mechanically is the pelvic floor muscles are contracting. And of course, that could squeeze the bladder for some people and they may empty. That makes perfect sense. And it’s possible that for some people it may be an incredibly strong orgasm that does that. So you so so women who say, listen, when I squirt, it feels more sexually satisfying. Sure. There’s an absolute biological reason. I could I could explain that. But to sort of say that that’s sort of a normal or that’s a metric is incorrect and normal meaning that every like every single person should do it. And so if you’re not, there’s a problem with your body. If it’s typical for you, that’s great. And I had a really interesting conversation with a woman who is who is an adult film actress. And she said that that before the scenes where where she’s supposed to squirt, she chugs Pedialyte to fill up her bladder. So her bladder is very dilute. And so when the fluid comes out, it looks clear.
Jameela [00:21:36] Right. And also is probably quite plentiful. Talk to me about pubic hair.
Dr. Gunter [00:21:43] Yeah, pubic hair, it’s it’s it’s good for you. It’s it removing it’s cosmetic. I think that that’s something that people are shocked with. I it never ceases to amaze me the number of women in the office when I say pubic hair is normal, they’re actually shocked that’s how how in culture they become to sort of believe that there’s something wrong with it. And if you want to modify your body, great. That’s that’s your prerogative. Some people get tattoos. Some people get their ears pierced, some people wax their eyebrows. Some people dye their hair and have different colors. So it’s totally fine. But just to understand that there are health risks that could happen with it and it has a function.
Jameela [00:22:22] What are those health risks I think is really interesting.
Dr. Gunter [00:22:25] Yeah. So injury is a big one. So we see a lot of injuries, ingrown hairs that end up getting infected. And, you know, the thing is, pubic hair probably serves a role by maintaining the humidity of the vulvar skin and as a protection and probably other, some other mechanisms as well. But.
Jameela [00:22:44] Is it supposed to keep dust out? In my head I was always like it’s keeping the dust and the germs out.
Dr. Gunter [00:22:49] Well, you know, it probably not quite.
Jameela [00:22:53] My producer is dying in the other room.
Dr. Gunter [00:22:54] Not quite maybe not quite like that, but, you know, the concept.
Jameela [00:23:00] Ok fine I’ll go back to school.
Dr. Gunter [00:23:01] Conceptually.
Jameela [00:23:04] I thought it was like the eyelashes, you know, it’s just all keeping the keeping from the dust and the grit out.
Dr. Gunter [00:23:08] Well, it probably does trap dirt and debris. Back in the day when we were didn’t have clothes to do that. So I think that that’s an important concept. But yeah, it has a role in protection. But people choose to remove it, then they just have to accept that they may have they may have drier skin. They may they may get infections. And, you know, people are grown ups. I think that I don’t want to ever tell someone that what they shouldn’t do anything with our body. It’s their body. They should do what they want with it.
Jameela [00:23:35] But you should know the repercussion and know that that isn’t necessarily the norm. Based on what I think we have this idea that no hair looks clean, whereas actually what would be slightly cleaner and better for everything is potentially on a scientific level, having pubic hair that’s there for a reason.
Dr. Gunter [00:23:54] Yeah, I mean, it’s really fascinating. I mean, pubic hair, the absence of pubic hair is sort of pubic hair was the definition of puberty – not puberty, definition of nudity in the United States for a long time. And so the strip clubs and women would remove more and more of their pubic hair so they could show more and more of their skin. As long as you weren’t showing pubic hair, you weren’t being publicly nude. And so it sort of has, I think, became that sort of connotation with being sexy that way. But I think it’s important to remember that pubic hair has fads and it’s like everything else. It comes and goes. And and so women should just be mindful maybe about permanent removal because then it’s not going to come back. But, you know, people used to shave all their pubic hair back in the day of the thirteen, fourteen hundreds to get rid of pubic lice. And then and then they realized that you could see your syphilis ulcers. So then they were pubic hair wigs called merkins.
Jameela [00:24:48] Wow. I didn’t know that that was the history of the merkin.
Dr. Gunter [00:24:51] Yeah. That’s that’s apparently the original history. So. Yeah. So.
Jameela [00:24:57] Bloody hell.
Dr. Gunter [00:24:58] But, you know, hey, if you I mean, I think it’s it’s just fascinating to understand, like, how much of body modifications have they they follow trends and other things that that.
Jameela [00:25:09] A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
Dr. Gunter [00:25:10] So you know. But I just always caution people when anything is associated with purity and cleanliness for women, that there’s almost always that patriarchal overtone to it. Because the language of pure, clean and natural is used to sell shit to women all the time. And that’s of course, that would be like the same marketing tagline you’d use for like America’s Next Virgin Bride. If that was your television show.
Jameela [00:25:36] It’s coming. Produced by Mike Pence I’m sure. Executive producer. Why is there hair around the asshole? Also very nice to meet you, by the way.
Dr. Gunter [00:25:52] It’s very delicate skin back there. You’ve got to be really care- people get peritoneal dermatitis and once they get that, that’s a real bitch to to get rid of so.
Jameela [00:26:01] Was is that?
Dr. Gunter [00:26:01] So perianal dermatitis is sort of chronic irritation of the skin around the anus. And, you know, I mean, stool is a chemical irritant and we’re wiping back there all the time. And so as we age, that skin gets more fragile. And so once it gets inflamed, it can be really hard to get rid of. That’s why bidets are great, because they don’t traumatize the skin.
Jameela [00:26:23] So I’m afraid of a bidet. I’m afraid of I’m I’m terrified. I’ve never used one. I think it’s because I had an incident a couple of years ago where I walked in and someone had a bidet and I went to the toilet. I opted out of all of the cleaning and drying like, you know, it gives you like a sort of. Sort of. Offers to sort of tone your pubic hair and stuff like it’s a full service back there. So I opted out and I just went for the flush and it flushed. And then I got out and it sort of malfunctioned and had a bit of a nervous breakdown and then just shot bidet water into was my face and mouth because I was facing it, trying to figure out how to fix it. And it just shot right into my face. And and after that, I was traumatized. So it’s really good to actually open up about this moment with everyone. But it made me afraid and it made me just fear, fear, such a strength of water. But but you you similarly to the French support the bidet.
Dr. Gunter [00:27:19] Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, the best way to get over a phobia is exposure therapy.
Jameela [00:27:25] Stick my head on a bidet next time I see one. Yeah. No, I think that’s really I just I just like learning about this stuff. I’m super ignorant, especially about anything below the waist because I’ve been so shy and like I can’t look at it. I’ll turn into a statue if I look at it. And so all of these things and you hear all these terms. I think my friend called the hair around the asshole an anal beard, which I thought I’d like to share with all of you because it hasn’t left me. So I don’t want it to leave any of you either.
Dr. Gunter [00:27:57] You know, that’s a good image. I’ll have to send you one of my I have a vulvar selfie sticks. I’ll send you one of those.
Jameela [00:28:04] Thank you very much. I might not post any of those. Maybe we could call our maybe we could call this girl band that was sort of accidentally starting together on Twitter Anal Beard. Anyway, moving on doctor. Talk to me about vaginismus, please. From a medical standpoint, I’ve spoken about this before with a relationship therapist on this podcast. But I would love to know I would love to know more about vaginismus. What is it? What do we do? What’s what’s going on?
Dr. Gunter [00:28:33] So vaginismus is a very common cause of pain with sex. And I think one of the most if that if people only took one thing away from this podcast would be that that sex if sex is painful, then that’s a sign of a medical condition. So I would want, as so many women just suffer for years, thinking that that’s how it’s supposed to be. So that so the muscles that wrap around the pelvic floor, the levator ani and the other groups of muscles,.
Jameela [00:28:58] The levator what?
Dr. Gunter [00:28:58] The levator ani. A-n-i.
Jameela [00:29:02] OK.
Dr. Gunter [00:29:03] So it’s this big group of muscles, those are muscles that contract for orgasm. They support the pelvic floor and if they become too tight what happens is that produces a mechanically smaller vaginal opening and then it can be very tender, just like if you have a Charley horse right how sore the muscles are. And so that’s what vaginismus is. It’s the muscles contracting when they should be relaxing because normally with penetration, the pelvic floor relaxes. It’s actually a reflex. And so what happens is they have the opposite and it’s not in your head. It’s something that’s happening at a totally biomechanical level and it’s very treatable with physical therapy, home, working with dilators. And it’s one of the things that’s the most satisfying to treat because we have so many answers and people can learn so much about their body during the treatment but getting people in for treatment can be challenging because a lot of insurances don’t pay for physical therapy.
Jameela [00:29:53] Yeah, and also just probably quite a lot to do with women’s bodies in particular. I I wanted to ask you if it also can have a psychological cause, though. Is there any link between psychological so, for example, a trauma victim, you know, someone who’s been a victim of specifically sexual trauma? Can can that go on to cause vaginismus at all? Can that lend itself to vaginismus? Can is there a communication between the the the brain and it’s, you know, trauma response and those muscles?
Dr. Gunter [00:30:22] So there can be but not always. So some women do have a history of having a traumatic sexual experience. Sadly, that’s so common among so many women having had that history of trauma. But it’s something that that can happen as a response to having a painful episode, like, for example, the pain of an IUD insertion. It could that could trigger it for some women. It could happen because part of it could be a previous sexual trauma experience. They can also just happen out of the blue. And I think that it’s like most things that are pain related, it’s usually very complex. And it’s a bunch of different things together because obviously there’s women who’ve been very traumatized sexually who never develop it. And so there’s probably very unique reasons why some people develop one condition and someone else doesn’t. Just like some people develop high cholesterol based on what they eat and other people don’t. So there’s genetic reasons as well. And so I think it’s probably very multifactorial. But for some women, that’s definitely a component. And that’s why working with a pain psychologist can be really helpful or relationship therapist.
Jameela [00:31:26] I’ve never even heard of a pain psychologist that’s so interesting. Another thing I found fascinating about your book is the fact that a speculum isn’t supposed to really hurt.
Dr. Gunter [00:31:35] No, it shouldn’t.
Jameela [00:31:35] Didn’t know that. It’s like I have to be sedated or I and I think part of that comes from the fact that I have a quite a fairly brutal history when it comes to sexual assault, and so I definitely I think I am definitely someone who does not respond well to anyone I’m not in a relationship with and my vulva or vagina, but I have to be, like, strapped down, held down by like four to six people. And then I still have to wriggle because of the pain. I mean, it’s agony to the point where I have like severe health issues to do with my cervix. I sometimes don’t get the test that I need because I dread it so much. I had no idea that it’s not supposed to hurt. It has always been like being honestly like being tortured. So what is that?
Dr. Gunter [00:32:25] So I think that just as you explain that when you’re with someone that you’re not comfortable with, sort of in a clinical setting, many more women can have more of a fear response. And unfortunately, so many women have had if your initial pelvic exam has been very painful, then of course, you’re going to develop a fear response. Of course, you’re going to have that sort of fight or flight response. And the problem is, is every time someone sort of holds you down or forces you to have it, it just it actually reinforces that response. And so whenever I see someone in the office, as soon as there a sign that there’s any anything going in that direction and we’re not even there yet, we stop. We absolutely stop. So the woman knows she’s in complete control. And then we talk about how we might then move forward. Maybe she’s going to be comfortable inserting the speculum by herself and then I can take it from there. Maybe she wants to watch. Maybe we need to go to the operating room and have some sedation so we don’t keep reinforcing that cycle.
Jameela [00:33:22] So, again, no one’s ever offered me this. I feel like so many of my friends have, like, dread this vital part of our health care. It’s such a pivotal part of our health care, especially with the rise of HPV. So we desperately need reproductive monitoring and and for people to check out our gynecology. And and we don’t go. We fear it. We dread it. You know, because because this has become so people can be quite demonic in the whole practice. It’s really important for us to know that that’s not supposed to actually happen.
Dr. Gunter [00:33:55] It’s really it really breaks my heart when I hear that, because there’s so many reasons that it doesn’t have to be. And it’s you know, when I hear that people have been traumatized or told that, oh, well, let’s just get it over with. Let’s be quick. And you know what? That might work for some people. So, for example, some people might say, yes, that’s the right approach for my pain. OK, but that requires a conversation to say, how are we going to approach your pain? Because how to approach my pain with the procedure is going to be different. How to approach your pain and someone else’s and and exactly what you’ve said. There’s so many women who don’t get their necessary health screenings because they’re so scared to go to the gynecologist is in such terrible experiences. And sometimes I think that I would love to just have a clinic for people who have a history of having had terrible pap smears, because I have so many, because all I do, I look after women who have vulvar and vaginal problems and they all have pain. And then I’m like, well, let me just try, let me see if I can do your pap smear. And they’re like, oh my God, they didn’t hurt at all. And I’m like yeah, so there are ways around it. And one of the most one of the easiest ways is there’s a speculum that isn’t any bigger than a finger and you can start with that and put a little bit of numbing medicine at the opening.
Jameela [00:35:06] What the fuck? There’s numbing medicine? What the hell have been doing?
Dr. Gunter [00:35:14] I know sometimes I think I need to raise some venture capitalists.
Jameela [00:35:16] Oh my God, seriously, I like when this pandemic is over and I’m actually making money again. I will go in on, like on that with you 100, 100 percent. That would be something I would be happy to genuinely, like, get behind. This is and I’m having such a moment right now. I am sweating. I’m so upset. I’m very happy to see you. But.
Dr. Gunter [00:35:39] And, you know, there’s ways around it. I mean, so so there are we have a lot of really great data coming out now about just HPV testing, as you know, as a monitor instead of pap smears. And so for someone, while you’re trying to work with how to how to maybe get them comfortable with the speculum, you maybe they’re going to be comfortable putting the swab in their vagina themselves and testing for HPV. So that might be a way to kind of individualize and approach. There’s a lot of different ways to do it. And what I find is if I sit down with a patient and I explain all these different ways, all of a sudden a lot of times the stress just goes away and the exam becomes so much easier because once someone realizes they have options and they’re not backed up against the wall, it actually changes their perception a lot. You know, so I just think that the answer to me for everything is always education. Explain to people what’s happening or why they might be having that pain during a procedure is actually really helpful.
Jameela [00:36:32] Fascinating. You’ve blown my mind. I’m I’m angry and relieved all at the same time. It’s a bit confusing. Anyway, we’re going to move on away from my vagina and vulva to this new disturbing market of asking women to change things about the smell and quote unquote, hygiene according to basically really what the patriarchy tells us our vaginas should smell like, Talk to me about just how evil this is.
Dr. Gunter [00:37:06] Yeah. The feminine hygiene industry, big feminine hygiene, it’s awful.
Jameela [00:37:10] It’s booming, which is crazy to me in 2020. I feel like we should be so much farther along than this. And yet it’s everywhere I look now.
Dr. Gunter [00:37:18] Yeah, I see every single day someone sends me a direct message on Instagram about some new product that’s designed to balance the PH or change the smell or do something. The number of people who I see using boric acid regularly, vaginally, which they shouldn’t be doing. And it’s amazing the misinformation that’s out there and how predatory these companies are. And what’s really sad is sometimes those companies that actually have some good products and then they branch out into sort of these other ones because they make money. There’s so much money in vaginal shame.
Jameela [00:37:53] One hundred percent, just generally female shame. That one of the most offensive ones that you and I both went after online was some sort of cleaning instrument for the vagina. The vagina and the vulva is self cleaning, correct?
Dr. Gunter [00:38:07] Right. Yeah, it’s a self-cleaning oven. It doesn’t need any help. You have good bacteria. There are called lactobacilli, but some people have different good bacteria. And that’s OK too. There’s five different communities of bacteria you can have and and your bacteria take care of it. And the thing about vaginal discharge is so freaking cool because the cells that get shed from your your vagina, they hang around there before they come out. And what happens is if you get introduced, if bacteria gets introduced to your body, it doesn’t know the cells that it needs in your discharge aren’t attached to your body. So it attaches to those. And then your vagina is like ha! psych and the discharge goes out.
Jameela [00:38:45] So is that of what discharges and is that also what happens during a period? It’s like a kind of cleaning. It’s a spring. Is it is that anything to do with that?
Dr. Gunter [00:38:53] Um, no, it’s not – nothing to do with cleaning. That’s just the lining of the uter- when so when, no pregnancy happens and progesterone is withdrawn, then the lining becomes destabilized and comes out so it doesn’t really do anything for vaginal health. It can have slightly negative effect on vaginal health. I mean, it’s just part of the- what I always tell people is evolution is not perfect. It just has to be good enough. And so that’s why women actually often notice that they’re more likely to have bacterial vaginosis after their period because the red blood cells from your period bind the healthy bacteria. So your healthy bacteria levels are the lowest right after your period.
Jameela [00:39:31] Is a is a tampon good or bad?
Dr. Gunter [00:39:36] It’s great. It’s a fine option. It’s not a bad option. You know, I think that it’s been weaponized again because there were tampons that were less safe, definitely, which are unsafe with in the 1970s with the Rely tampon which were super absorbent. But now we have incredibly low risk from modern tampons and women should make decisions that work with our bodies. I mean, what really pisses me off is we frighten women about using things vaginally right. Again this gets back to this purity myth, like what should we do? Just be sitting in our house for four days.
Jameela [00:40:14] Yes.
Dr. Gunter [00:40:15] Until it until your moon time passes.
Jameela [00:40:20] Ugh. And can you talk to me about specifically why you would like people to not shove things that change allegedly the scent of your vagina or vulva inside of themselves? I really like this is so important. And I like I cannot stress enough how much you need to stay away from the word scented. If you may as well just say patriarchy founded.
Dr. Gunter [00:40:40] Yeah. Absolutely.
Jameela [00:40:41] That’s really, really, genuinely so toxic. Can you just explain that and stress that to people? Because honestly and I think maybe it’s also especially my age group and younger in particular, actually you know what, it’s probably every age group. In fact, the shaming probably gets worse as you get older. But I notice that I’m suddenly in my thirties receiving like an influx of some of vaginally scented products coming at me via the algorithms. So please, can you just break that down? Why exactly their bad?
Dr. Gunter [00:41:07] Yeah. So your vital ecosystem is very self-contained with the healthy bacteria. There’s also really good mucus that covers all the cells. It kind of functions like a netting that protects the cells and then you have an acidic PH, which is really detrimental to most bacteria and viruses. So when you introduce something, you’re upsetting that equilibrium. It’s like completely changing the environment of a garden, if your plants are made for one type of sun exposure and now you’ve changed it you’re going to damage things. And so study after study links vaginal products with an increased risk of catching a sexually transmitted infection, if exposed, even cleaning the inside of your vagina with water can do that. So it’s really important for people to understand that the discharge exists for a reason. The good bacteria exist for a reason. And when you start putting products in your vagina, you actually start damaging that system so it would be quite harmful. And what can happen when people damage their colony of bacteria? Good bacteria? It doesn’t always repopulate. So you can actually sometimes end up now with a whole different type of bacteria in your vagina that isn’t what you had before and might not be as protective.
Jameela [00:42:13] And what should people do if that happens?
Dr. Gunter [00:42:16] You know just stopping to use those products is the most important thing.
Jameela [00:42:20] Oh the patriarchy have called their pissed. They can’t believe you’re giving us all this information.
Dr. Gunter [00:42:24] The patriarchy is on the phone. I’m like, hey, man, no. So anyway, so that’s that’s I think the really the big message is that these things are incredibly harmful to the good bacteria in your vagina and that they can they can increase your risk of catching a sexually transmitted infection if you’re exposed. And it’s not it’s not beneficial in any way, shape or form. And there are other potential harmful things. So, for example, if you’re putting garlic in your vagina, is that an astringent? Is that actually going to mechanically damage the cells?
Jameela [00:42:59] So it’s very harsh. It’s a very harsh substance. Garlic is quite a burning substance.
Dr. Gunter [00:43:06] Yeah, yeah.
Jameela [00:43:07] I can’t imagine shoving that somewhere so sensitive.
Dr. Gunter [00:43:10] Right. So and people recommend it for yeast infections, which they shouldn’t. But so if you’ve ever had a cut on your hand and you’ve been cutting garlic, you get a little bit in it’s like, oh my God, that’s awful. And so you imagine putting that in your inflamed yeasty vagina. That would be like agony. So, yeah, these things are sadly, I think what I’d like to sort of point out is sometimes women are driven to do things because they’ve been abandoned by medicine. So I can understand how people get there. But what we’re seeing now is this sort of women as predators. Right so women are promoting these products. Women are promoting this misinformation either for clicks on Instagram or to sell products. And so the calls coming from inside the house, ladies.
Jameela [00:43:48] Exactly. This is this is where I created that term double agent of the patriarchy. And those people 100 percent fall into that category for me of the kind of just wolf in sheep’s clothing where you are selling us something that’s going to damage us, that you know that we don’t know any better. And you are preying on insecurities that were created for us by patriarchy, I think is so unacceptable. And most of these people often don’t even do these things themselves or they’ll advertise they do the fact that they do or they’ll make kind of one off YouTube video about it. Just so, so irresponsible and frustrating. Talk to me about the dangers of the jade egg and steaming, etc.. Like, I know that you love all this shit.
Dr. Gunter [00:44:28] Yeah, like that jade egg is going to follow me around for the rest of my life.
Jameela [00:44:31] What is a jade egg?
Dr. Gunter [00:44:33] Well, it’s you know, it’s something that somehow came into only seem to have been discovered with Gwyneth Paltrow and Goop writing about it. And it’s something that you can, I guess, charge with the energy of the moon and put in your vagina to, I don’t know, harness your female energy.
Jameela [00:44:52] But that sounds really reasonable, actually.
Dr. Gunter [00:44:53] Yeah, I you know, I’m like, oh, it’s nothing better than saying your energy as a woman comes from your vagina because, I mean, that’s like the least important thing about, you know, about me and my brain I think is more important. So, yeah. So it’s just a grift, it’s there are certainly a lot of these things are based on that- nd there’s no evidence that this is an ancient practice that anybody did, whether being in ancient practices we’ve heard the ancients didn’t actually really understand our bodies. So being an ancient practice isn’t a reason to do something.
Jameela [00:45:25] That died really young.
Dr. Gunter [00:45:27] You know? So yeah I mean you know again, you know, their belief systems just were not they didn’t have a medical understanding of the body. So but yeah. So there was no evidence that jade eggs or any kind of ancient ancient practice. And so it’s just a way for people to put to sell something. And in fact, most of the things sold as jade probably aren’t even jade. So, yeah, I think that-
Jameela [00:45:50] It is interesting that we haven’t actually put any of that sort of stuff towards our brains you know what I mean, no one’s capitalized that, we’re not shoving jade eggs up our nostrils and our ears like just holding them in our cheeks. That’s so odd.
Dr. Gunter [00:46:01] Yeah. So it’s just it’s a it’s a way to sell a product. It’s a way to upsell something and and sort of create this false sort of this false mythology about the female body. I’m like, you know, we’re all we’re combatting so many entrenched myths about the female body. Why do you have to go and create new things like really? You know.
Jameela [00:46:24] What’s the point of steaming? Why do they say you should steam it like a chicken? What is that?
Dr. Gunter [00:46:28] Well, I think, you know, this it’s this misunderstanding that the genital track needs to be cleaned. So when Gwyneth Paltrow was bragging about it on Goop, she said it was a way to clean your womb. And of course I hate that womb. Oh, my God, like it’s your uterus, use a grown ass woman term, it’s your uterus. And and so this idea that your body needs cleaning is the is the sort of a core tenet of the patriarchy that you’re dirty and there’s something wrong with it. And here you are promoting something as cleansing as empowering. To me, that’s the biggest mindfuck. Like what the hell? Like it’s it can’t do anything. So if you squat over a pot of steaming. So first of all, steam is hot, right?
Jameela [00:47:14] Oh my God. I have a friend who burned the shit out of her vulva or vagina like vulva think. Which the out- vulva’s the outside bit isn’t?
Dr. Gunter [00:47:24] Yeah.
Jameela [00:47:24] So burned the shit out of it trying to steam it.
Dr. Gunter [00:47:27] That’s awful. You know we hear about reports of injuries. But the whole idea, first of all, it mechanically the steam isn’t going to probably get into your vagina. It doesn’t need to be cleaned. And if it does, there’s oxygen goes along with water vapor and your vagina is a low oxygen environment. It doesn’t want oxygen. And so if you steam your vulva and you feel better, putting steam against your skin. Well, if you really want to put something warm on your vulva, why why use steam why not just put a warm face cloth on your vulva? That’s fine.
Jameela [00:47:57] Hot water bottle. Lovely.
Dr. Gunter [00:47:58] You know, just get yourself a nice face cloth. Run it so it’s just nice warm temperature and lay it on the outside and you find that soothing. That’s great.
Jameela [00:48:07] Well, if Jen does not like the jade egg and the steaming, wait until you hear how she feels about vaginal rejuvenation.
Dr. Gunter [00:48:16] Oh, yeah.
Jameela [00:48:17] Preach.
Dr. Gunter [00:48:19] It’s this whole idea that is just another part of your body to weaponize against you. And what’s really, really awful about a lot of this vulvar surgery that’s promoted and you see these plastic surgeons that have these huge Instagram presences, they’re all making the vulva smaller. So your labia are part of your sexual response. So the labia, or the lips and the labia minora. They can protrude beyond the labia majora for 50 percent of women. So 50 percent of women have labia minora that are visible and 50 percent don’t. So kind of like women are all different. And so what’s it’s weaponized this idea that having visible labia minora is somehow abnormal when it’s half the population and your labia minora have specialized nerve endings. So trimming the labia minora to make it smaller is equivalent to trimming the penis and making it smaller. I have yet to hear of cosmetic surgery for men that involves reduction. I mean, I think it gets back to this idea again that we celebrate everything about the male penis and the larger, larger the better, and we diminish everything about women. And your labia are part of your sexual response cycle. And what is that message that we’re saying when we say cosmetically I should be smaller? Like what’s I mean, that is such a toxic message. And so there was a study actually from Britain where they looked at young women coming in wanting to have labial reduction. And we sort of had this range of what what typical size is, because I don’t want to say normal, because you could be outside the typical range in your still normal. But not one of the women was even outside of the typical range who thought their labia were large.
Jameela [00:50:11] Talk to me about abortion, it’s something that you and I again come up against quite a tsunami of heat over, we are both pro-choice. We are not uh we are both people who also do not think pro-life is a thing. We we both think pro-birth is more of a I don’t know, a precise way of describing these people who don’t actually want to support the human wants it out of the womb. Can we just go through some of the biggest myths that you find frustrating that are out there? Because it’s it’s really important that we have these conversations as the campaign of misinformation in order to further the agenda of the I mean, some of the members of the Supreme Court, even who are trying to campaign to take away reproductive rights for human beings. Can you tell me some of the most frustrating and scary myths?
Dr. Gunter [00:51:07] Well, I think actually the most frustrating thing for me is this concept that that we need any kind of law about abortion because we don’t. You know, you shouldn’t have to be told what you can or can’t do with your body. And the example I always give is Canada. There is no abortion law in Canada. It’s not legal. It’s not illegal. It’s just a procedure that women can have or anyone who gets pregnant can have with their medical provider. And that’s it. And stunningly, I know it’s not shocking to anyone who is pro-choice is that guess what? The abortion rate is actually lower and abortion rates are a complex mix of socioeconomic issues, of lack of access to contraception. I mean, the most common reason that people have an abortion is they have an unplanned pregnancy. And so if you want people to not have abortions, if that’s your goal, if that’s your stated goal, then then having access, free access to long term contraception is the way to achieve that goal. So I think that the we have to be really frank that this forced birth movement is actually not about abortion. It’s about preventing women from controlling their bodies. It is a very specific way that that’s designed.
Jameela [00:52:16] When they say that this is a kind of sentient being from conception and that it has a full heartbeat and a beard and a suit on at sort of six weeks into conception, into gestation, is that what it’s called?
Dr. Gunter [00:52:32] Yeah gestation yeah sure. Since we’re talking about pro-life terms, you can use whatever term you want because they sure do.
Jameela [00:52:42] Yeah exactly. Into the rodeo. Six weeks into the rodeo. So so can you just spill some facts about the heartbeat and the development of the human being in a uterus?
Dr. Gunter [00:52:58] Sure so a heartbeat doesn’t mean anything. I mean, frogs have a heartbeat like like, you know, that’s not a sign of a life. That’s a sign that there’s a structure called the heart pumping blood through the body. That’s it. You can have brain death and have a beating heart. So that doesn’t mean anything. And I think that when politicians twist themselves into all kinds of sort of knots, trying to sort of explain why why a fetus is somehow sentient, what they’re really saying is the life of the person doesn’t matter. The life of the pregnant person doesn’t matter. And so I just think that you can try to counter those arguments in any way you want but since they’re not sensical it’s really hard to. I mean, the most important person is the person who’s pregnant. That’s it. You know, everything else is secondary. And I trust that person to make decisions with their bodies in the way that they feel fit. And I think that there is this narrative that that that that people only knew what was happening to their body. If women only knew if they’re only smart enough to know. And I’m like, wait a minute, people know what’s inside them. When someone is pregnant, they’re not stupid. They know exactly what’s happening in their uterus. They know exactly what they’re doing when they have an abortion. They know exactly how it’s coming out. And so it’s very infantilizing to me when these forced birthers talk about, oh, trying to sort of using graphic terms, for example, how an abortion happens. Do you think the person having the abortion hasn’t figured that out because they know. They know what’s in their body, they know how it’s going to come out. They’ve put two and two together. So these are all ways to sort of either infantilize women or they don’t understand or to make it seem.
Jameela [00:54:44] Selfish and you’re demonized. One hundred percent. Oh, this has been so interesting. Thank you so much. I feel like there’s still a billion other things that we need to discuss vaginally. But maybe you’ll come back another time and we can get into, you know, because they’re still also the menopause to cover, which we will definitely come back and do together, because I know that is another thing that you are working on, raising awareness and destigmatizing and demystifying. And so that something. I’m very, very interested in. Well, you and I both spend a lot of our time trying to make sure that people feel less alone, less isolated in their experiences. I so appreciate your advocacy. I really, really do. I think you are such a powerful you’re now a powerful part of my life from a distance. You are something I recommend to to everyone to follow and to to listen to. I think you speak so much senes you’re so unapologetic. You are so forthright and and you speak in a way that really resonates for me, because I think part of the way that I try and raise awareness about certain injustices is just isn’t this fucking ridiculous? And I I’m not even sometimes as angry as I am baffled before angry, you know. And I think that that’s a really important way to spell some of these injustices out to to women in particular. But, you know, all females that say, isn’t this ridiculous?
Dr. Gunter [00:56:05] Yeah. It gives you an idea about sort of the tenacity of the myths and how pervasive oppression has been that we’re still here in this age of, you know, everybody having a computer in their pocket, basically with a smartphone. And yet, you know, getting this information across seems so difficult. And it’s because those are the the absolute divides created by the patriarchy. And when people don’t have accurate information, it’s impossible to be empowered.
Jameela [00:56:34] Well, this has been a master class. You are the patron saint of the vagina and the vulva. I am thrilled to have been able to spend this time with you. My brain is exploding. Everyone, please go out and buy the Vagina Bible and follow Jen Gunter on social media. Dr. Jen Gunter, before you leave, would you please tell me, what do you weigh?
Dr. Gunter [00:56:55] I weigh the weight of all the women that came before me who didn’t have the knowledge, and I want to fix that. I think that that’s how I weigh myself in society is a righter of knowledge wrongs.
Jameela [00:57:09] Well, thank you so much for all of your myth busting and your patriarchy bashing. I appreciate you so much and I can’t wait to have you back on. Thank you.
Dr. Gunter [00:57:17] Thank you.
Jameela [00:57:19] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and research by myself Jameela Jamil, Aaron Finnegan, and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carlson. And the beautiful music that you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. I really appreciate it. And it amps me up to bring on better, better guests. Lastly, at I Weigh we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at 1-818-660-5543. Or email us what you weigh at email@example.com. It’s not in pounds and kilos. Please don’t send that. It’s all about your just you know, you’ve been on the Instagram anyway, and now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.
Jane [00:58:11] Hello, I’m Jay and I’m from Belgium. I weigh my kindness and empathy. My unapologetic loudness and humor and queerness and sexuality. I weigh my art and love for movies and books and I weigh my mistakes, and there are many in my ability to learn from them.
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