EP. 73 — Shadeen Francis Returns

Jameela: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of I Weigh with Jameela Jamil. OK, so you asked you asked for me to bring Shadeen Francis, the epic sex and relationship therapist, back onto this podcast. And I listened and I did because I adore you. And so a lot of you sent me DMs. I, I tried to group them in together because a lot of you were asking a lot of the same questions. And so I hope you find that reassuring, that a lot of the things that were brought up were brought up in the thousands. And and so you are not alone in whatever it is that you may have written in about. And maybe you just a spectator who has no issues in your love or sex life or lack thereof, and you’re just content, but you’re curious. Shadeen is so special. She not only is unbelievably kind and warm and intelligent and charismatic, but also her voice. My God, it’s like butter. It’s hard to keep concentrating sometimes when you’re interviewing her because I just want to just like melt. She makes me melt. And so if you would like an hour and a half of a woman with truly the most beautiful speaking voice in the world talking to you about sex and love in the kindest and best way ever, then this episode is for you. And I want to also reassure you that perhaps if some of the things that you wanted covid were not covered in this episode, that may be because we covered them the last time Shadeen Frances was on in the first episode we ever had with her, we talked about relationships and stress and lockdown, how to argue in a healthy way, mismatched libido, how to handle rejection of a partner because they’re not in the mood. Vaginismus, navigating sex after trauma. That was something that a lot of you asked about this time, but we had covered it on the last episode. Asexuality, how to tell someone if you want a relationship or something done differently. So those are all things that we talked about last time. This time there was more of a focus, I would say, on sex and more of a focus on on people not just not wanting sex whilst in a relationship and kind of things going stale, but a lot of people just really not wanting sex whatsoever at the moment and finding their libidos are low as we talked a lot about that. We talked about how to maintain the sparkle in a long term relationship or post pandemic. We talk about being a virgin later into life. And and a multitude of other things how to deal with fat phobia around yourself and your body image and how to navigate that when it comes to sex. We talk about polyamory. And so that’s just where a lot of the questions went this week. And so I’m I’m dying to hear how you felt about it. And you should definitely follow Shadeen online. She’s absolutely magical and I’m obsessed. Alright, guys, I’m obsessed. We talk about my attitude to anything to do with bum stuff. So trigger warning for that. If you don’t want to hear specifically me talk about bum bum stuff. Uh, yeah. And. That I’ve made myself shy. You just have you just heard me make myself feel shy just by saying bum stuff. So I clearly need more of these conversations with Shadeen because I still have got some work to do in my own self. Shame and awkwardness around sex. God, I’m so English and embarrassing God. I hate myself sometimes so much, but I’m not going to cut this out because you know me by now. You know, I’m an awkward weirdo and I love you for sticking by me. So please enjoy this episode. I think it is so special. She’s so fabulous. And I could not have loved this time with her more. I couldn’t cut anything out because it was just all killer, no filler. This is the completely, ridiculously excellent and gorgeous Shadeen Frances. She is back by popular demand, it is the iconic and I’m so proud to say she’s my friend, it is the iconic love and sex and relationship therapist Shadeen Francis, hello. How are you? [00:04:29][269.4]

Shadeen: [00:04:30] Hi. I’m so good and so glad to be back. Hi. [00:04:34][4.2]

Jameela: [00:04:35] I have been frankly harassed to have you back on this show and it’s only my pleasure. But but people have been going on and on since your last appearance on this podcast because you answered so many important, brilliant questions and you just continue to be a fave over at I Weigh. How have you been. [00:04:54][18.8]

Shadeen: [00:04:55] Mm. I’ve been good. I have taken up ceramics since, I mean actually since the last time you and I talked. I think that’s probably a new development. I am currently making a piggy bank in the shape of a breast, so life is good. [00:05:08][12.9]

Jameela: [00:05:09] That is so funny that you say that. This is why this is why we’re friends, because I’ve been desperate to get into ceramics and pottery in general, just to make nudes. I just want to make nudes. I’m obsessed. [00:05:24][15.4]

Shadeen: [00:05:24] Is there really any other kind of art? [00:05:25][0.3]

Jameela: [00:05:27] No, I want to make like I read, I really want we don’t need to get into this, but it is something that I like. I aspire to eventually fill my house with pornographic pottery, uh, because, you know, YOLO mate YOLO anyway. [00:05:44][17.3]

Shadeen: [00:05:45] Yes. But you will see that we are kindred in that sense. [00:05:48][3.3]

Jameela: [00:05:50] I can’t wait I can’t wait to actually be able to go to each other’s houses. We’ve had to do so much. So we’ve had to have an entire friendship basically over Zoom for this last year and a half. I can’t believe I met you just before the pandemic. Anyway. I OK, so I put the word out on my Instagram that you were coming back on the show and we have such a diverse array of questions. And then also, I don’t know if you noticed this in your own DM’s, but also so many questions that overlapped. So I would like to reassure anyone listening to this podcast. Maybe you sent in a question that most of the questions we chose are the ones that came up again and again and again. So I want you to not feel alone and whatever struggle or situation you may find yourself in, because you wouldn’t believe how many of the same themes came up. I was really I was so interested to to hear what and it’s I predominantly had answers I don’t know about you, but from women to hear what women are going through regarding sex drives, etc. at the moment. [00:06:51][61.2]

Shadeen: [00:06:54] Yeah I think it’d be important for us to note also that if we don’t get to your question, it’s literally because there are bazilian and not because the person isn’t important. And it’s not that we didn’t see it, and it’s not that you’re alone in asking it. So. [00:07:07][12.7]

Jameela: [00:07:08] Exactly, exactly. OK, so we have about five hundred thousand questions. So I’m just going to jump in. We’re going to dart all over the place, if that’s all right with you Shadeen just from topic to topic so that we can try and reach as many people as possible because so many people wrote in. OK, so first of all, I know that traditionally you deal with love and sex and relationships, but you and I were both quite drawn to a question about friendship. So I thought I would oddly kick this off with that. Someone said, would you be open to sharing tips on how to process the grief of a friendship break up? [00:07:45][36.6]

Shadeen: [00:07:46] Yeah, breakups are are difficult territory in general, but I think that we really don’t talk much about the spectrum of intimacy that we have in our world and for a lot of us, we have friendships that long outlived, you know, relationships, predated relationships that we are in or have been in. And there can be a unique quality about the intimacy of a friendship compared to a romantic partnership. And we can have romantic friendships. Yes, but I think that there can absolutely be something special about the choosing of a person that you’re saying, I want to do life with you, but also I’m going to give you space to have kind of all of your own stuff, which is a lot of what our friendships are made of. Right. That, you know, yes. Some of us might want to, like, do all of the things with our friends, but we still expect them to, like, lead their own lives. And so what do we do with the the loss of that connection for some people our friends are the first people we go to when something hurts our first people to go to when there’s something to celebrate. And so I think that as we mourn, I think that we have to just acknowledge the value of deep human connection as as I think about grief for myself and talk about grief with my clients. Grief helps us get clear on what it means to be human. I think that the fact that I mourn this loss means that I loved it deeply. And so there can be something really beautiful in the acknowledgment of that, that there was something beautiful here. And can I find a way to honor my experience of that even as it’s gone and maybe I won’t be able to recreate this exact thing. But if I can get really clear on what was it that I loved, I might be able to kind of enshrine it or protect it or find other ways to pay homage to that, other ways to build and nurture that in my life. So maybe I really loved the support that this person gave me. And what did that support look like? And how do I share and show and teach other people for what good support looks like to me? Or maybe this person had a special way of celebrating me. Or maybe this person helped me remember a really important time in my life. How do I continue to honor continue to honor that? I think one of the best ways that we grieve is to get really clear on what it is that we love and to hold onto that. [00:10:26][159.7]

Jameela: [00:10:28] Absolutely, although to devil’s advocate, you I also think it’s important to look at the things that made you end that friendship or made the other person and that friendship and and the ways in which you perhaps were not served in that friendship are so important to also acknowledge that, you know what you’re also not looking forward, not looking for when you go out into the world open and vulnerable to new friendships. I also just loved this question. It’s something I’ve been talking about for years that we don’t really have a template for break ups with friends, even though I think they’re some of the most painful breakups you can ever go through. We have a template for breaking up with a lover. We have a template for breaking up with someone you’ve been married to for 30 years and you have five children with that. There’s no stigma attached to that, that loss. And yet when you make a decision to end a friendship, it feels like, oddly, a bigger rejection than someone rejecting you, your friendship and your genitals. It’s I don’t know if this makes sense. You’re going to have to bear with me for a second, but it’s almost more earth shattering because it’s not because the guy about sex likes not because the sex fizzled out or you felt attracted to someone else or living together was hard. You know, there are things that can sometimes, you know, deteriorate perhaps a romantic relationship or a marriage. It feels oddly more more personal and about specifically who you are, especially as someone isn’t bound to you in the way that they are to a marriage. So it can really be a big break up. And you shouldn’t feel silly if you mourn it the way that you would mourn the loss of a long marriage and and, you know, get in that ice cream, get that fucking Netflix on and and and don’t feel like a loser because you just lost a friend is one of the hardest things I can imagine. Have you lost a have you had to break up with many friends? [00:12:19][111.2]

Shadeen: [00:12:21] Not many best, best friends, I did have one significant friendship break up at a really pivotal point in my life, and I really appreciate us expanding the conversation to think about what wasn’t working because, you know, that breakup was precipitated by things that weren’t working that really needed to be addressed. And I think that sometimes our narrative around friendships and I will say like friendships between people who are socialized as women in particular are expected to be our longest term commitment. Right. Like we have this sort of model for like ride or die friendships, you know. [00:12:59][38.0]

Jameela: [00:13:00] Your sisterhood. [00:13:00][0.2]

Shadeen: [00:13:02] Yeah. You know, I know that it’s not as catchy as, like, bros over hos, but, you know, we do have this sort of mentality that, like, your friends come first and that we live and die by the sisterhood. And so regardless of like your gender or the gender of your friends, I think that there can be a lot of pressure that once you say you are my friend, that this is a lifelong commitment. And so even as we celebrate the love and connection and bonded ness that we are missing from having that person in our life in that particular way, I think it’s also important for us to acknowledge that as we shift, as we grow, there will be relationships that can’t transition with us. Right, that there can be friends that are not meant to be with us at the next stage of the journey. We are all continuing to grow and evolve. And just because we were a right fit, a best friend fit, a good enough fit for a particular time or place or season doesn’t actually mean that, oh, this you know, this can offer me what I need as I continue to move forward in my life. And so exactly as you were saying earlier, how do we also, you know, be gentle with ourselves as we’re grieving like you would never tell anyone who’s experiencing any other kind of loss, like, oh, get over it. It’s not that big of a deal. It’s silly. Right. But we can do that to ourselves very often. Right. And so for for people to hear that, like, yeah, this this can be and often is deeply, deeply painful. It’s painful to lose someone you love regardless of who they are. Right. And so can we be gentle with ourselves in that? [00:14:46][103.5]

Jameela: [00:14:46] I also think it’s happening quite a lot, probably now in the same way that we’ve seen some couples become stronger than ever during the pandemic. We’ve seen a lot of couples break down and we’ve seen a lot of friendship start to break down because I think a lot came to light when we no longer had the chaos of the everyday running world. We had time to sit and think and and, you know, check ourselves on who were actually reaching out to who we actually crave the company of and and who we’re worried about, who we’re wondering about and and who was worried about or wondering about us. I think there was a lot of clarity gained in this past year and a half so far. I’m sure there will be more opportunity for clarity as we continue to completely fuck up this pandemic anyway. I know that for me, I had I had it a little bit early when I was moving to America. I kind of had that sit down with myself. And I did a ginormous cull of friendships where I made a list of, like all the people that I’m acquaintances with and friends with and just being like, how do I serve them? How do they serve me? How do we serve each other? Is this worth carrying on? Because as you got older, it just becomes harder to carry on. And, you know, I think when we’re younger, we don’t know ourselves. We’re more likely to tolerate behaviors that maybe don’t mix with us. We don’t fully know who we are. And as you referenced earlier, you know, we’re we’re growing all of the time and we can’t expect everyone around us to grow in a parallel direction. And so just just grieve, do a postmortem on the relationship and and and look at it, I guess, as yeah. And and look at it as a gift and an opportunity to to further improve upon that situation going forward. But I’m sorry. And to whoever this is that shit, it’s really sad and painful when it happens. There’s no like greetings cards for that sort of thing. [00:16:42][116.4]

Shadeen: [00:16:44] There should be. [00:16:44][0.5]

Jameela: [00:16:45] I know it’s such a it’s such a significant pain. OK, so moving on, we had an overwhelming majority of people writing in about a reduced or completely gone sex drive. Most of these people, I would say, and the vast majority were women who wrote to me about this. And some of them are in relationships. Some of them aren’t. A lot of them are very young. They’re as young as between like twenty one. Twenty five, of course, some some older as well. And they’re wondering if there’s something wrong with them. And I was wondering if you could reassure everyone that it’s OK to ebb and flow and and just tell me what you think. And also, is this something that you’re seeing in your own practice, people coming in with this observation about themselves? [00:17:34][49.7]

Shadeen: [00:17:37] I’ve been hearing that a lot more. It always it is always a conversation that comes up because it’s a thing that people are often worried about, confused about, embarrassed about. But but I’ve been hearing it a lot more through the ongoing pandemic. [00:17:57][20.4]

Jameela: [00:17:59] I was going to ask. Do you think that it is covid related at all? Do you think it’s partly down to the fact that I don’t particularly feel sexy when I’m feeling stressed or when I’m looking at a lot of death on the Internet? It’s just not my thing. And when I’m inactive because I’m not really going out as much. And so might that naturally impact your hormones? It impacts your libido. They say being more active can make some people’s libidos increase. You know, I’m I’m in the house all the time. I, I don’t know. I’m just not to I definitely notice, like a in all of my friends feel the same way. We’re all feeling a reduced libido. Is that partially pandemic related or are we just noticing it more because the pandemic’s given us space to check in with ourselves. [00:18:42][42.1]

Shadeen: [00:18:43] No, it’s absolutely pandemic related. Right. Like a you know, microscopic, potentially fatal virus is a wildly unsexy context for the vast majority of people. Right. Like constantly being worried about your safety and security and the safety and security of your loved ones. And like not being able to make concrete plans for your future or move about the world freely or connect to the people and places and activities that make you feel alive. All of that is super unsexy, very, very unsexy. But it’s really easy for us to pathologize ourselves. We we’re looking at ourselves like, well, I’m sitting inside with, you know, my partner and we’ve been here for, you know, ninety six straight hours without leaving the house. And we haven’t had sex one time. Like, do we hate each other now? Right. And I think it’s really important for us to remember that, like our sexuality, our arousal is a system that requires both yes and intention to both the yes’s and the no’s. Right. We’re not in a constant state of on. And so once we have the opportunity, we just go. One of the best descriptors that I have for this comes from the work of Dr. Emily Nagorski, who wrote Come As You Are right in that in that work, she talks a lot about accelerators and brakes. Right. And so if our system if our arousal is sort of the average of things that turn me on and things that turn me off, there are a lot of things to turn you off in the middle of a global pandemic. And so it is not surprising that I’m feeling pretty off or pretty low. Right. A pretty limited or pretty stuck or pretty stagnant a lot of the time. Right, and maybe I already had a lot of things that acted as brakes in my life before, so lots of responsibilities, maybe the time of day that we’re trying to approach sex isn’t ideal for me. Maybe I am tired, maybe I am overwhelmed, maybe I am lonely. Maybe I just aren’t aren’t having the kind of sex that feels really exciting to me that all of that matters. And then we add in this other big social layer. Right, that your arousal is a balance of how on your ons are and how off your offs are. And so if we are out of balance, you will feel it. [00:21:29][165.8]

Jameela: [00:21:31] And I mean, I feel as though that’s something it’s a conversation that I’ve certainly had even with you more regularly when we’re talking about people who are in a long term relationship, perhaps maybe stuck in the house together. But it’s a lot of young single people. And I feel like they are the ones who feel like because there’s so little conversation around the fact that not everyone’s super randy all the time when they’re young just because that’s what they show in the films, that everyone’s always shagging and wanking all the time in films and they’re young and they all look the same. That’s not necessarily the case. You know, some of us and also some of us may be dealing with trauma. I know that was definitely a big thing for me, but some people on some people are just wired differently. And that’s OK. And I feel I feel so sad to see how how worried the people in my DMS were for the fact that they were young and feeling like they had a very limited sexual interest or capacity. Do you feel like it’s getting younger? I mean, I know I’ve read articles over the last couple of years that say that younger people, like Gen Z et cetera, are less interested perhaps in sex than us. Do you do you think there’s any validity to that? [00:22:41][70.0]

Shadeen: [00:22:43] I mean, some of this would be speculative because I don’t have the data on it, I, I think that. What I can say that I see is that younger people are more educated and so they are actually making choices that are more in alignment with what they actually want. I think that for a lot of us, millennials and Gen Xers, right. Boomers and upwards, I think that we can admit that we had a lot of early experiences that we didn’t really want. All right, you know that we weren’t demonstrating enthusiastic consent or we were confused or I mean, we just sort of did it right. We didn’t really know. I think that because so many really incredible writers and speakers and activists and educators and performers and, you know, of all kinds are really working really hard to make sure that the generations coming up behind us and alongside us have more information than we had. I think it’s actually empowering people to make better choices. And I’m not saying that it’s a better choice to not have sex, but I think that sometimes it’s actually the choice that we wanted or needed. Right. To find other outlets for our loneliness or our desire to be liked or to be popular or to be interesting for other ways, for us to explore intimacy with other people or for us to turn some of that towards our own bodies rather than seeking out constant connection with other people’s bodies. I just think people have more choices and are honoring that. [00:24:28][104.8]

Jameela: [00:24:29] I agree. I also think that the media has changed around it. Just as you were talking, I was realizing that, you know, my generation grew up on Sex and the City and all these kind of different shows that were all about, you know, friends and whatnot. And so, like, will they? Won’t they? Is she going to finally find love? Are they going to be together? You know, so we were so program with the idea that you have to be in a relationship. And if someone isn’t, then there’s something wrong with them. Whereas I feel as though the role models that GenZ have are so much healthier, like Rihanna being like. No, I didn’t come here hoping to leave with someone. I’ve come here to leave with my award. You know, would you be asking these embarrassing questions on the red carpet about, you know, who’s the love in her life right now? And she was always just like, I don’t need a bloody love in my life. I don’t need a man. And we thought the same thing with Billie Eilish just so many empowered women talking about the joys of living alone, of being alone, of finding yourself with a finding that love with your best friends. And and, you know, I feel as though we’ve taken more ownership over providing our own orgasms. You know, my generation, it was embarrassing to masturbate and use sex toys. It meant that you were some sort of outlier, whereas this generation, it’s just such an open, wonderful conversation. So I I love the idea that it’s because GenZ have the sense to master that and the information to master their own autonomy when it comes to relationships and sex. That’s a great way of looking at it. Some people are dealing with more traditional issues around this in that as in like the kind of things that we’ve definitely had before on the show, someone’s asked, how do I feel like a sexual being again? I have no urges and I feel it’s down to my personal issues with my weight. My husband is so understanding, but it sucks. That is another type of message that I received so many of so many people whose bodies have changed either over the course of the last 18 months or after kids or whatever, and they’re struggling with that. And it’s not just that they are feeling very sexual and they’re embarrassed to take their clothes off. It’s actually impacted them to the point where they no longer feel sexual. Can you explain that to me and and help give some tips about how you could reconnect with yourself? [00:26:36][127.1]

Shadeen: [00:26:37] I want to I want to walk this as a bridge from the previous question about, you know, loss of of libido in in other contexts. I think that when we notice that our bodies are no longer sort of on or available, that’s important information. And so. Where I want us to start is by thinking about how do we move out of a relationship with our bodies that is rooted in conflict. So the way that I like to introduce this to people is to think about like, what would it look like for you to make peace with your body? And this can cover all kinds of spectrum, but when we think about legacies of ableism and sexism and racism, you know, and in fact, phobia sits at the intersection of all of those fat antagonism, anti fatness. Right. That those are ways in which we take all of these external systems of oppression that tell you that you are not good enough, you are not worthy, you are not deserving. Your body doesn’t matter. Nobody wants you here. Right. We take all of that and internalize it and have that same conflicted relationship with our bodies. Right. So my body is not curvy enough. My body is too curvy. My skin is too dark, my hair is too kinky. You know, my lips are too big. My legs don’t move the way other people’s legs move. I have too strong of a lisp, whatever it is. Right. And we wage war with our bodies and then hope that somehow we will be able to orgasm. Right out of violence, and that’s not really the ways that our bodies work, and I don’t say that to shame anyone for that because we’re all fighting through that. We’re all working through that while navigating that. We have all received so many messages that tell us that because of the bodies we inhabit, we do not deserve pleasure. And so beyond whatever the particular thing is, and fat tends to be a particularly salient one because especially in North America, there is a particular war waged against fat and therefore fat people. The way, that we move away from participating in that is by, quite frankly, deciding that regardless of the body that I am in, I deserve to feel good. All right, we have to decide that point blank, that is the surrender. Right, that that is our statement of surrender, that is how we get out of war, it’s deciding that even if I’m in a fat body, I deserve to feel good. Even if I’m in a skinny body, I deserve to feel good. Even if I’m in a dark skinned body, I deserve to feel good. We have to find a way to hold that and repeat that and chant that and shout that and honor that and live that and spread that because you won’t be able to receive it from someone else if you’re not able to start practicing saying it to yourself. And when you say that to yourself, it also makes it more possible for you to act that out with other people. Right. If you decide I am a person I think had mentioned there, which is why we keep coming back to it. Right. If you decide that I am too fat to deserve pleasure. Are you also saying that other fat people that you see in the world, people who are the same size as you or bigger than you, are you saying that they don’t deserve to feel good? You would never say that because you would see and understand that, like, oh, that’s kind of shitty. That’s not fair. Right. But we do that again to ourselves. We don’t treat ourselves with the same kind of compassion that we’d be willing to extend to other people. [00:30:29][231.6]

Jameela: [00:30:30] And I was going to say that if if you are struggling to sit down and have that conversation with yourself, like if you are so accustomed to showing a lack of compassion towards yourself that you don’t even know where to begin in reassuring yourself, boosting yourself up, reminding yourself that you deserve joy, I always find it helpful for myself when I’m struggling with self kindness is that I imagine I was talking to a friend going through the exact same issue like someone I love the most in the world. Would I ever tell a friend with a disability that they shouldn’t be having sex? They don’t deserve pleasure. They don’t deserve love. Would I ever say that to someone in a body that doesn’t look like the traditional Instagram body? No, it wouldn’t even occur to me. It wouldn’t occur to me. I would physically harm someone who said that to someone that I love, made them feel that way. It’s so preposterous to me. So that could be a helpful exercise for you is just to step away from yourself and imagine what you to write down, maybe what you would say to a friend. And then read it back to yourself. [00:31:34][63.5]

Shadeen: [00:31:36] Can I also offer a little professional setack here, so our sneaky protip you heard it here first. No one has ever said this before. Don’t have sex with people who aren’t attracted to you. [00:31:55][19.1]

Jameela: [00:31:57] Well, she stipulates that her husband’s very intimate and very understanding of her lower libido, etc. [00:32:03][6.2]

Shadeen: [00:32:05] And so this isn’t specifically geared towards this person. But for a lot of folks who are really struggling with, you know, am I deserving my worthy of this. Right. Let’s try and set a standard for ourselves wherever possible. I’m only interested in having sex with people who want to have sex with me. And so if they are showing up to sex, it means they want to have sex with you. Right. If someone is consenting to be like, yeah, I’m going to be sexual with you. Right. They’re saying, I care about your pleasure. I want you to feel good. I want to have sex with you. If you’re not forcing someone to be there, if you didn’t say, like, be here or else right, then we can and we can acknowledge that there is something in this for them that they are drawn to, that they are attracted to. [00:32:51][46.5]

Jameela: [00:32:53] Yeah, we shouldn’t try and decide for them. And also, it’s very hard to fake arousal. You might be able to fake an orgasm by faking actual literal arousal is quite difficult for both. [00:33:02][9.4]

Shadeen: [00:33:04] And so if we can practice also believing people when they say that they’re interested in us, and I know that can be hard to receive if we don’t if we don’t see ourselves as desirable or as worthy, some of this can come down to building our own erotic empathy. So empathy is the experience of being able to be like, OK, even if I’m not having that same emotion, I can make space for it and believe you. Right, and so what would that be like for us to say, even if I don’t see myself the way you see me, I can make space for it and believe you, if someone saying I think that you’re sexy, I think you’re attractive, I want to have sex with you, I desire you. You turn me on. I’m into this. Can we make space for that and believe them? Right. Our mind likes to do that hypothetical. Well, what if they’re lying? What if, you know what if they’re tricking me? What if they’re. But we very rarely challenge our imagination to consider. Well, what if it’s true? What if this person loves my back rolls or loves my soft belly or loves my kinky hair or loves my tone of voice or loves the way my body smells? What if it’s true? And so that can also be a way that we can make a practice of shifting this inner critical voice that we have adopted that also isn’t ours, let’s also be clear that that’s not your voice. You have picked that up from messages that you’ve gotten out in the world. And so you can decide, I choose to believe them and recreate this message for myself, even if it doesn’t serve me. Or I could try out a different voice. And even if it’s unfamiliar or new, let me see if it gets me any closer to pleasure and connection or peace with my body than the shame voice did. [00:35:01][117.1]

Jameela: [00:35:02] Love that and just to continue on this theme, because it’s come up so much, someone else has written this is a couple who wrote in. They said, how do you get your your sex life back after losing it during the pandemic? We’ve had sex twice since the pandemic started and apparently it’s happened to many couples as well. And so so what advice do you have for anyone listening who it’s not related to weight. It’s not related to a lack of sexuality. You’ve just kind of lost that space. I know we’ve kind of touched on it, but just to make sure that was definitely answered because of how many people asked. [00:35:38][35.7]

Shadeen: [00:35:39] Yeah, yeah. Right. So bringing back up here. So what in your lives changed through the pandemic? There was some disruption. Right. And not just like the sort of vague it’s a pandemic, but it being a pandemic made very specific changes for you and your relationship over time. And so what has become more of a priority? What is taking more of our energy? What is taking more of our time? What is taking more of our attention? Right. And so what shifts can we make there? What can we change to make more room for us to connect to each other in the ways that they’re saying that they want to? I think it’s also important and nobody likes when I say this, but I’m going to say it anyways and I’m going to say it for always. We have this sort of cultural myth that planning is unsexy and maybe it’s because I have a decent amount of Virgo in my chart. But planning makes the most sense to me. If you’re saying I am committed to making something, I want to happen happen right. There are very few other things in our life that we are like, I really want this, but I’m going to completely and totally leave it up to chance and then judge myself based on whether or not the opportunity magically arose. But like sex in relationships seems to be a place where we’re like, we did no labor to make this happen and somehow it was supposed to just happen. And we’re judging ourselves because of it. And so being able to be be planful and we totally miss and forget that Lovers’ had all the planning right when you were just lovers, when you were flirting, if you had a hookup phase or a casual phase or an earlier phase in your relationship that felt differently sexual than now, we forget that there was actually a lot of planning that went into it, even if it wasn’t like, let’s pull out our calendars and sync our watches and count backwards from ten. Right. Even if it wasn’t any of that. Right, that we had the anticipation of dates and we had to looking forward to seeing each other and we had the carving out of time and the coordination of that. Right. We had all of that extra planful energy that helped us build up the wanting this right. Helped us lean into our creativity. It allowed us to use our imagination. It allowed us to really invest our energy such that if you were really busy at the start of your relationship, you know what you did? You figured out a creative place to, like, have some contact maybe were, you know, making out in the car, maybe were, you know, fooling around in the closet. Maybe we are staying up a little bit later just to make sure that we have time to connect. Right. And so, yes, we build lots of comfort. We build lots of familiarity, we build lots of stability. You know, in our relationships, we build more security. And it’s important for us to still plan and protect time and energy for adventure. [00:38:57][197.8]

Jameela: [00:38:59] Yeah, it’s so funny, it’s so funny you say that and also it doesn’t have to be this gross iCal sex imput as you sort of reference, but you can make a whole thing of it. You can make a dinner if you’re still in lockdown, you know what I mean? You can both get dressed up even inside the house and just clear some time dim the lighting, put on some candles, get cheesy, get a little bit cheesy with it or whatever it is that you need. If you’re in the situation to get the sex swing set up, you know, have all the lube ready, the linoleum should be down in case there’s a mess. I just I think it’s really important that you said that it’s so great. And because it’s so true that, you know, we know that we’re seeing this person that we’re attracted to on Saturday. So it’s like. Right. Going to do my little routine to get myself ready for the sex. I’m excited for the sex. I know. I know to be ready for sexual cues. Because that’s the other thing is that I think when you’re working from home and I’ve been on my own most of the summer when I was working from home, you know, and so was my boyfriend, it just sort of like, our headspaces just all jumbled together. There’s home and work all at the same time. And so you’ll you have no sense of real routine or schedule. Everything’s just a mishmash. And so you’re not ready for sexual cues because you’re just zooming all fuckin day. You’re zooming and organizing and making a mess and then cleaning up that mess and then nagging each other and then the dogs done a piss on the carpet. It’s just like it’s hard among in and among all that chaos to always be like, are you giving me a vibe? [00:40:33][93.4]

Shadeen: [00:40:34] Right I’m spontaneously and suddenly sexy right now. [00:40:38][3.4]

Jameela: [00:40:38] At the same time as you. [00:40:39][1.0]

Shadeen: [00:40:39] Right. It doesn’t, I mean it doesn’t happen. And so I just hope like I know that we’re being a little tongue in cheek here. I hope that this can just be an invitation for people to give themselves some compassion. Right. That we have all of these expectations. Right. Mostly because we weren’t given any information. So we just fill in the blanks. And we never saw anyone plan anything. We didn’t hear people talk about planning as if it’s like a normal natural thing and not just like a boring, you know, again, like Rolodex situation. Right. Like we we weren’t given permission to even explore what this could feel like for us in like an exciting way. But like, think about how good it can feel to have something to look forward to. Like if someone invites you to something and you’re like, oh, that would be so fun. Right like you want to be ready for that and like, sure, like if someone is like, hey, what are you doing right now? You want to come over and like, go to this party? Like, sure, there are going to be sometimes are like, yeah, I totally yeah. Let’s do it right. But notice that the busier our lives get more stressed out we are, the more overwhelmed we are, the more entrenched we are in our routine the more things we’ve going on. It doesn’t it doesn’t work well. And even if we still do it now, I’m like in my head because like did I turn the oven off? Oh, I still have that paper to write. Like, who’s going to walk the dog? Like, where did I leave my pencils? Right. Like, all of the things that can just feel unfinished and too distracting for you to really, really enjoy your time. Right. And so if we even reframe some of this planning around like an invitation. Right. Inviting each other to a pleasurable experience. Right. Or having a sex date or even just having a sexy date or just time to, like, not be doing all of the responsible or stressful stuff that you get up to otherwise, and that you might notice that there are the feels like there are more opportunities for sex, because I think a big a big thing that happens in long term relationships is actually not loss of attraction. It’s lack of attention. [00:42:51][131.9]

Jameela: [00:42:59] This next question, again, falls in the same theme, but is it struck me because it was just so honest. Should I leave my otherwise great boyfriend of many years if I simply cannot stand the idea of having sex with him again, a couple of my friends are going through this, but this person wrote that in and it just it was so short and succinct. And I wondered what advice a therapist would have. Because that’s intense. [00:43:30][31.1]

Shadeen: [00:43:32] Yeah, and this is a yes or no question, I think, but and I’m going to be picked, Gemini, and say maybe. Maybe right. I, I, I don’t know. I think that there are a few things to consider. First, here’s how important is sex with your partner to you? It sounds like it is important enough to consider not being in a relationship with someone you are no longer interested in being sexual with. Number two. It is hard to want sex that isn’t good. And that can apply to pretty much all of the conversations that we’ve had about like libido and interest in attraction, like if the sex you are having is not pleasurable, you are not going to want it. [00:44:26][54.9]

Jameela: [00:44:28] Yeah, I’m not going to the dentist, you know, we don’t form our opinions based on our experiences, [00:44:32][4.4]

Shadeen: [00:44:33] right, that the sex is not such a thing that you can want it and not. If you don’t like it. Right, you can want to want it, you can want to like it, but you cannot you are not going to want it if you do not like it. Desire requires pleasure. Desire requires pleasure. And so if you’re saying I am not just not experiencing desire, I’m actually experiencing disgust. It sounds like right. Or like [00:45:02][28.7]

Jameela: [00:45:02] I cannot stand the idea of [00:45:04][1.8]

Shadeen: [00:45:05] and you know, I wonder about the emotional undercurrent of that and whether that’s anger, whether that’s resentment, whether that’s disgust, whether that’s apathy. But whatever is driving that, I would invite us to be curious about it, because it sounds like the fact that, you know, that this person is weighing their options, that there is that feels like there is a lot at stake here. Right. It sounds like sex is important enough that I have to consider this, but the relationship otherwise offers me enough that it feels it would feel also still like a big loss. And so the question for me then is like, is there room to make that different? Right. OK, so you cannot stand the idea of having sex in the ways that you have previously or are currently having it. What kind of sex do you actually want? [00:45:57][51.4]

Jameela: [00:45:58] Do you want sex at all? Would you be would you be into an open relationship perhaps where if this is an otherwise great boyfriend who you’re happy with, could you potentially be OK with the idea of them having sex with someone else? And you having sex with someone else. [00:46:13][14.8]

Shadeen: [00:46:14] Right, right. The answer could very well be the sex I want is not is no sex. Right. And that’s a very real answer. Right. And so in the end, however, you would honestly answer the question for whomever this resonates for a question is like what kind of sex do you want? Right. And what happens in that kind of sex and when does that sex happen and how does that sex start and how does it continue and how does it end and what happens after? And who are the sort of people who would have that kind of sex? What would they do and what would they say? Maybe what would they wear and maybe what would they smell like with the more clear you can get with yourself about what it is that you want, we can also notice the difference between what it is that you want and what it is that you’re getting. And then we have an opportunity to make an invitation to our partner to also have that same level of questioning for themselves around what it is that they want. And then we come together and see what are the things that we might want to create. Even if it’s some turn taking, even if it’s like sometimes sex goes this way and that’s more your you know, your movie and sometimes sex goes this way and sometimes it’s more my movie. And sometimes we do like a, you know, a fusion, a mash up the crossover and [00:47:41][87.0]

Jameela: [00:47:41] Avengers assemble. [00:47:41][0.5]

Shadeen: [00:47:44] Right. Look at you. And they would be so proud of me. So proud of you. Look at that cross promo, right? [00:47:49][4.4]

Jameela: [00:47:49] Oh, no, I didn’t mean that more sort of sex with a cape. [00:47:54][5.0]

Shadeen: [00:47:56] Right. I mean, whatever it is you’re into. [00:47:57][1.6]

Jameela: [00:47:57] But also the part. Yeah. [00:47:59][1.3]

Shadeen: [00:47:59] Whatever you’re into linoleum and sex swing sold separately. Right. That it is important for us to get really clear on what is it that we want. And I think that if you lay out very specifically for yourself and with your partner what it is that you want, if they are unable or not wanting to participate in that, it makes your answer a lot more clear on what it is you need to do from right now. Right. It’s, you know, do I, you know, give all of this up in search of this thing that you might be better somehow somewhere else? Right. The more information we have about what absolutely can or cannot, will and will not happen, the easier it is for us to make an informed decision, even if it is a difficult one. [00:48:49][49.7]

Jameela: [00:48:50] Yeah, and you and I have spoken about this before on multiple different platforms that I think this kind of leads into other questions. I’ve been getting that more and more and more people are interested in polyamory and in open relationships and and they still feel a bit guilty about that. They feel greedy and broken. And I really wouldn’t want anyone to feel that way because monogamy is really fucking hard. And I think that polyamory probably makes quite a lot of sense, especially for a lot of people that I know. I personally just I don’t know why. I’m just I’m just on rails. I’m just only ever interested in one person at a time. I think it keeps my life simple. I like the nest, but I totally understand how some people would want, especially after a certain amount of years, maybe how they would want to perhaps make sure that they keep the love and relationships that they have, but also get to fulfill their needs elsewhere. It is very traditionalist and binary. I don’t know if that’s the right word necessarily to think of sex as either or not just sex, but like relationships is only with one person. You have to get absolutely everything you need in the world from that one person and they have to be perfect. Otherwise you must leave them because they are not, quote unquote the one. And I think that’s really dangerous because I know that I get a lot of the things in my life from my friends and so does my boyfriend, from his friends and our shared friends if we live with our friends. So we’re getting everything we need from multiple sources whenever putting the pressure on each other to be absolutely fucking everything. I think that’s such a dangerous, again, Hollywood, born lie and literature born lie. And so, you know, I think a lot of people are you seeing an increase, would you say, and people interested in polyamory and coming to terms with the idea that you can’t find necessarily everything and just one person. [00:50:47][116.7]

Shadeen: [00:50:49] I think that it is becoming a bigger conversation, which I think is really important, polyamory and monogamy has existed for the history of foreverdom, but most people haven’t had the safety to be out about it and a lot of people still don’t have the safety to be out about it. I think that because we are having more conversations, I think more and more people are feeling able to be out. And I think seeing more and more people out and being living real lives. Right. And not just like the sort of Hollywood snapshot of the best parts or the worst parts, but having lives that have ups and downs and places in between. I think it’s giving more people permission to consider what this might actually look like or feel like. Is this for me, it allows people to ask me new questions. And I’ll say that I am for the last eight years, I’ve been living in and practicing in Philadelphia, which, you know, the. Communities that I am in here and end up working with in general tend to be folks who sort of sit at various sort of crossroads or intersections of being, you know, kinky, poly, queer, creative, you know, folks. And I think that a lot of people are also kind of feeling pressured to be non monogamous in some way, I think that there is some way in which we can also talk about like the choice to not choose monogamy being somehow more like evolved. You know, you are more mature or you’re more open minded or you’re. [00:52:43][114.1]

Jameela: [00:52:43] More realistic. [00:52:44][0.8]

Shadeen: [00:52:46] Right. And I I think that I just want to make sure I know it wasn’t the question, but I want to name in case it is relevant to anyone here right now that the whole point is, is the choice. Right. It’s not about necessarily what you choose. It’s actually allowing yourself to consider what the options are and choosing the things that feel in alignment with the person that you are or want to be or the life that you actually want to live. And so you have room to choose that without shame or judgment. And so if you choose monogamy and that’s the right choice for you, awesome. And if you choose non monogamy of any flavor and that’s right for you awesome. And sort of bring it back to this question as you’re thinking about the sex that you want or the relationship that you want, what needs to be there. Right. How clear can you be about that and the clear we can be and if we actually have that conversation with our partner or partners? Because a lot of times we we do this whole thing in our head and we talk to our friends and we talk to a therapist and we talk to our parents and we talk to that person at the bus stop and we read every article that we can find online and we never actually talk to our partner. And so talk to the people that you’re with. You’re actually in a relationship with about what you want and give them the opportunity to work with you on creating the kind of love, the kind of relationship, the kind of sex that you want to have. [00:54:24][98.2]

Jameela: [00:54:25] So speaking of which, another question that we keep getting from everyone is around either finally realizing we’re finally, finally feeling open to discuss the fact that they are interested in kink. They have fetishes. They are interested in things that perhaps they’ve never explored before. They’ve never explored with this partner. So people want to people want to know how they should address that conversation with their partners. And a lot of people want to know this in my DMS. [00:54:58][32.8]

Shadeen: [00:55:01] I think it is important for us to start with the acknowledgment with ourselves that it is a gift that we give to our partners to allow them to get to know us. Right, that it’s a gift, right? That’s what we want ultimately when we’re saying I want to be intimate with you, it’s saying I want to know you deeply. I want to understand or experience you deeply. And so if we can find ways to just be able to share with our with each other, I that that that that is good. That is a good thing. And it’s not saying just because I want this, you have to do this. Right, we’re just starting out with it is good for our sex lives, for my partner to know what turns me on right. It’s a good thing. And so we highlight the positives. We highlight the positives. Right. So actually, before we do that, let me do another another set up step. Right. Let’s start with. Making some space for people to receive, making some space for people to hear you, and so checking in is a good time. Hey, I want to tell you something. Do you do you even like to talk about sex? Right. Do you talk about sex at all? Or would this be a conversation based way out of left field if we don’t talk about this at all? And it would be really uncomfortable and awkward for you or for them to just start talking about sex while you’re at the table with their ninety nine year old grandmother right maybe don’t. Maybe don’t. But if if that’s totally cool, then yeah, we can keep it casual. But if there needs to be a little bit more set up, then we do protecting to make sure that we are both in the space to show up as our best selves, to be vulnerable with each other. And so like, hey, I want to share something that feels kind of hard for me to talk about, but I really want you to know, you know, and I think it’s a good thing. But I am feeling nervous about telling you about it. You know, can we talk about when would be a good time? I would really like your undivided attention. Right. Or how do you feel talking about sex? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? What would make a conversation about sex easier for you? I think we can have some of those pre conversations before I actually share anything so that we can set up a good container for the information. [00:57:25][144.4]

Jameela: [00:57:28] I also think, you know, whenever I’ve had to have conversations around sex with partners in the past, in particular when I whenever I would have to reckon with my you know, especially when I was young, with my own reticence to do it, I would then ask myself, well, what would I be OK? Just never knowing all the things they want. Would I be OK with the idea that there’s something they want or they need and they’re too afraid to tell me? No, I would want to know. I want to know all of them. And so it’s so true what you’re saying, that like it’s a gift that you give someone. It’s a gift that you want to receive from someone. And this might open up an avenue where you never know what they might be into too. You know people people take a minute to warm up to their own truth. Maybe they didn’t even know they were into something. And you will invite them into trying something that they didn’t even know they like yet. But I think that’s a really important conversation to have because we don’t want to walk into something unaware of what the other person’s into. We want to know that we’re doing a good job. We’ve all got a bit of an ego, you know. And so I think that it’s I think we should know that the other person probably hopefully wants to say otherwise. They’re probably a bit of a bad shag. [00:58:40][72.0]

Shadeen: [00:58:41] Yeah, I mean I mean, even beyond ego, like, it is so sexy to be sexual with a person who’s having a good time. Right. Like we are turned on by each other’s pleasure. And so if I can give you it almost feels like I’m I’m a gamer. It like feels like getting the cheat codes. Right. It feels like getting the cheat codes like, hey, like I really it really turns me on if you nibble in my ear or I would really love, you know, if you were to do this or that, you know, it could be really fun or interesting. And so this brings back up the conversation that we’re having earlier about like an invitation. It’s not saying you have to do this. It’s not necessarily saying you need to do this. Right, that this is you sharing a piece of information. Right. You’re letting your partner know this is something that brings me pleasure or this is an adventure. I would love to go on with you. Right. And it’s open ended. Right. You cannot force anybody to do anything that’s super unsexy. We don’t want that. We always on honor consent, we are not coercing anyone into doing anything. Right. So that’s not the energy that we’re bringing and that we make clear with them that that also is not the intent of the conversation. Right. So I’m giving you a piece of information. Whatever you choose to do with it is up to you. And if it feels important to me that this piece of information is acted on, then I make a specific request that they can say yes or no or maybe or let me think about it, too. And it’s ideal if we give them time to think about it, even if they say yes, because some of us just say yes, I’m a compulsive yes person. If you say anything that sounds fun, I’m like, yeah, let’s do it right. Anything at all in the world. And then later on I’m like, oh, wait, that sounds really unsafe. Or actually I hate it. Right. And so I actually need a lot of us need a little bit more time to just process and check in and to learn more about it. Right. But we create some safe container to have the conversation. If it feels like weighted or if it feels sort of unusual or natural. We create some added container. We highlight the positive aspects of it and just share the thing. I really like it when you’re really great at. I keep thinking about we make room for it to be a little bit of a conversation. So are there things that you’re really into that I don’t know about yet? You know, have you ever tried that? What was it like for you? Right. And then we make a specific request if it’s something we really would like to pursue. You know, I’m feeling really excited about about being able to try this with you. You know, would you want to you know, and maybe we don’t if if they’re not ready to try it, maybe you’re like, are you open to reading more about it? I have this video that I watched that really inspired me. Can I send it to you? There was this fanfic that was really, really hot. You know, can I send you, like, the best part? You know, I will highlight for it, highlight it for you. I will put it in our shared calendar. We can invite people into what could be exploration. [01:01:40][179.3]

Jameela: [01:01:42] So then follow up question. What do you do if you are the person who’s being propositioned? with the new thing invited? That’s a nice way of saying it, isn’t it. But if you what do you do if you’re the person being invited to participate in a new sex act but you don’t want to do it, can you offer some language for a kind way to make sure that you say no without shaming someone? Because sometimes our own discomfort can lead to us making an embarrassed reaction that can sometimes then embarrass the person who has asked us. And that’s not ideal. It would be better to to leave shame out of the bedroom as much as possible, unless that is your thing, in which case no judgment, but can you offer a way to kindly let someone down in that? [01:02:36][54.3]

Shadeen: [01:02:38] Right. It’s the same way, hopefully, that we could be thoughtful about declining any other invitation that we might get. That sounds like it’d be really fun for you. That doesn’t actually sound as fun for me. [01:02:51][13.5]

Jameela: [01:02:52] Yeah, like camping. [01:02:53][0.6]

Shadeen: [01:02:55] Right. [01:02:55][0.0]

Jameela: [01:02:55] I’ll never I will never go camping ever as long as I live, you have to drag my dead body. [01:03:00][5.0]

Shadeen: [01:03:01] I’m really glad that you told me that you love to go camping. I don’t love to go camping. Boom. Right. And we can if we are worried about someone feeling shamed or judged, we can actually just tell people. Right. People are always like, oh, how do I do this? I don’t want them to feel this way or that way. We can actually just tell them that it’s not our intent to make them feel a certain way. We can’t well, we’re not always going to be able to protect and prevent people from having feelings. People have real feelings and they’re allowed to feel how they feel. Right. But we can be really clear. This is not me judging you, right? I’m not judging that. I’m actually really glad one that you told me. And two that that feels good to you. It just doesn’t feel good for me. And so I don’t want to do that. But I’m open to continuing to talk about the things that feel good to both of us or to make sure that you feel heard or that you feel seen or that you feel pleasure, that you feel whatever that thing makes you feel. Right. We’re going to bring it to food because as always, it is a good. [01:03:59][57.9]

Jameela: [01:04:01] I knew you would I hoped you would. [01:04:02][1.0]

Shadeen: [01:04:03] We almost we almost didn’t. But here we are. And we did. Right. That if someone were to be like, oh, like I really love bananas. I don’t like them bananas. Right. Bananas are a visceral full body no for me, like from literal feet away, my whole body says no. But that’s for me, not a judgment on people who like bananas. Just my body says nope. Big. Nope. Capital, no. Right. And so if someone was like, hey, would you like to split this banana muffin with me? It is the best fucking muffin I have ever had in my entire life. And I would really love for you to have a piece. Right. It is a big effin no for me, but I’m not going to like ew what the right. Like, that’s not gracious or kind, right. And so the difference is like, no, thank you. Right like it can really be as simple as saying no, thank you. [01:04:57][54.0]

Jameela: [01:04:58] And then so then what about the after steps of in the event that someone says no, but thank you, then what do you as the person who is offering the invitation do? Sorry, I know I’m throwing all these different angles of this, but I just really feel like the fantasy is that we say it and then it’s this really warm, cuddly conversation, then we do it. But sometimes the answer is just no. Yeah, I’m I’m I’m on an absolute no no with the bum bum. I’m just on a no with the bum. And every boyfriend who’s ever dated me has been told that whether they’ve asked for it or not. My bum is just it’s a no entry. And not only all of my we’re about to hit 10 million downloads of this podcast. Now lots and lots of people know that my bum is off limits. All right. You guys are wondering. [01:05:48][49.9]

Shadeen: [01:05:49] And that way if anybody ever is interested in making an invitation to you, they already know what not to invite you to. [01:05:55][6.9]

Jameela: [01:05:56] Well, exactly. Don’t invite me to my bum, right? Or your bum. And so what do you do? What do you do if that if someone has said no, if you’ve invited them to do something, what’s the next step? [01:06:09][13.3]

Shadeen: [01:06:09] The thing that trips us up all the time is that we hear no as a global rejection of your worth as a human being. They do not want to have a bite of this banana muffin. And that obviously means that they hate me and think I am disgusting and no one should ever see my face ever again. Right. And don’t get me wrong, it doesn’t feel good to receive a no. [01:06:43][33.3]

Jameela: [01:06:45] Especially because we were never set up to deal with rejection. And had we been set up to to know how to handle giving rejection and receiving rejection as children rather than it being so stigmatized. We wouldn’t now have so many, you know, consent issues throughout life. [01:07:00][14.5]

Shadeen: [01:07:00] A lot of us have not been given compassionate nos. A lot of us got really cruel, brutal nos. And sometimes we got nos to things that were drastically important, like some significant needs that were not met. Right. So we can have lots of stuff wrapped up in no, but it is important for us to remember and acknowledge in the same way that someone saying yes to a thing is not a global, overarching and total and complete yes. Which we seem to have a good sense of. Like if someone takes a bite out of a banana muffin one time, it doesn’t mean that they want to marry me and spend the rest of their life with me forever and ever and ever. Right then the same needs also be true for a no. That someone saying no doesn’t mean that they, like, hate your guts and never want to see you again right. And so we can keep the conversation going depending on what the conversation is about. If the conversation is about pleasure. Now we talk about other things that are pleasurable. What would feel good to you? What do you like? Is there any part of this that you like? Right. And it’s not about convincing them to want what you want or like what you like. This is a process of getting to know and understand each other’s taste, each other’s palates, each other’s desires, each other’s appetites. Because since sex is an opportunity for pleasure and if you are deciding you are going to have sex with someone other than yourself, then sex needs to be an opportunity for mutual pleasure, for shared pleasure. And so the no is crucially important because it makes sure that whomever you are having sex with wants to be there and wants to do the things that you are doing. And that is the only way that we both have or we all have. However many people are there. Right. That we are all having a good time is that we know what people’s boundaries are, we know what their nos are and we do not cross them. [01:09:04][124.7]

Jameela: [01:09:06] And so what do you do now? You have this thing that you want to do and you don’t feel satiated maybe without that thing. Is that a time to have the conversation with yourself of can I can I continue to have a fulfilling sex life without that thing that I really want to do? Or do I need to, I don’t know, ask permission to do that elsewhere, you know, with someone else perhaps who is into it? Because my partner loves everything about me but isn’t into that thing or is there I mean, is it so important to me that the relationship therefore cannot continue? [01:09:42][36.1]

Shadeen: [01:09:43] I think that that process that you just walk through, very similar to, you know, some of the questions that we asked earlier, you have to you have to decide how important this is to you, for you to have the thing that you want in the exact way that you want it at the exact time that you want it. Right. And some of the things that we ask for not just wants they are needs and we will be unsatisfied or unhappy without them. And so it is up to us for us to listen to ourselves enough to try and get a sense of that. And we won’t always be 100 percent sure. But if it’s important enough for us to be strongly considering that, then that’s important information to give to your partner for the two of you to figure out what is possible here. So maybe, you know, bananas and bum holes are visceral nos [01:10:37][54.0]

Jameela: [01:10:39] that’s the name of that’s going to be the name of my new band, Bananas and Bumholes. It’s almost as good as . [01:10:46][6.3]

Shadeen: [01:10:46] So it’s it’s it’s important for us to get a sense for us if, like, what our actual wants and needs are, so that we can also be really clear with our partners so that they know what they are agreeing to and consenting to, so that we can negotiate for what is what is there actually room for? Maybe I can’t have the thing that I want in the exact way that I want it. But what is the bandwidth? Is there any room for me or us to participate in this thing? Right. Are you able to support me in that? Are you able to help create experiences for me in that? Are you able to just, like, move out of my way in that right and cheer me on from a distance or just like not talk or not ask about it, but that’s the room that you need to give me in order for me to be able to do my thing right. But it’s important for us to get really clear with us how significant it is again so that we can all make choices. [01:11:44][57.7]

Jameela: [01:11:46] And let’s talk about the root cause of why people even are still struggling to even have this conversation and why we don’t have the vocabulary even for this conversation. Is that, you know, I got a lot of questions asking me specifically. I read it out now are fetishize a result of trauma? Like there are so many theories around kinks and fetishes, a lot of which have I don’t know if I want to say the word adverse but like, you know, they all have adverse associations where people say, oh, you’re damaged or you’re a weirdo or an outlier, where is actually a lot of people are into fetishize the world of kink. And it’s a very you know, I’ve said this before on this podcast that the the BDSM community, for example, is it’s like their foundation is consent. It’s one of the safer sexual communities in the world because it’s very, very everyone’s very clear about what they want out of every interaction that clear with one another. They have a safeword. They are the conversation is not stigmatized or shamed in any way. So I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding around that. So would you mind answering that question are fetishes a result of trauma? And also, would you address the continuing stigma, please? [01:13:00][74.5]

Shadeen: [01:13:01] Yeah, I will also start off by saying that, yeah, there are a lot of things that we can learn from kinky communities about consent, about conversations. Absolutely. In any community we can get shit wrong, but I think there’s a lot of opportunities for us to learn how to get a lot more things right. And so as we think about fetishes, fetishes or specific sexual interests so they can fit under the umbrella of kink. But kink itself is is an umbrella term that includes just a variety of erotic identities and interests and behaviors and practices. And so yeah fetishes as a specific sexual interest are not a result of pathology is that’s kind of the whole answer. The answer is no, it’s not a result of trauma necessarily. Yes, we can become hyper fixated on something because of trauma or because of OCD or ADHD. Like there are all sorts of ways that we can find our attention drawn to a particular thing. But it is a dramatic oversimplification of pleasure and of the breadth of experience for us to say you like this thing because of trauma. First of all, all of us have experienced trauma, all kinds of traumas. A lot of people have specific sexual interests that have nothing to do with the traumas that they’ve encountered. A lot of people have had traumas that include the very same thing, and they are not interested in that thing or have a strong aversion to that particular thing. Right. So it it it would be the same as trying to decide the exact reason why you like a flavor that you like. Right. Like there are people who put like sriracha on everything. Right. That is a very specific [01:14:57][116.4]

Jameela: [01:14:57] Alright there’s no need to attack me on my podcast that’s fine. I did invite you on as a guest Shadeen I’d like to remind you. Like foundation. We put food in our chili. Go on. [01:15:12][14.4]

Shadeen: [01:15:14] I love that. we can have a very specific and particular palate and to try and track and say, like this is the exact moment at which that became a thing for you, I think is is really I mean, not even useful, truthfully, I think beyond trying to track why we like what we like. It is more useful for us to find ways to invite people into experiences that are pleasurable to us because like the why isn’t the point like even if we figure out why, let’s say hypothetically speaking, let’s say you are really interested in something and that connects to a traumatic experience for you. Right then what? OK, now that we know that, then what what good can we do with that information? A lot of people have been given that narrative from like a conversion therapy sort of kind of eugenic lens of like, oh, we’re going to find the root of this so we can eradicate it and fix it and change it. But if this is a thing that feels good to you, that doesn’t harm anyone. Like, why go on that expedition? Right like if this is something that brings you pleasure, even if it came from trauma, could we imagine how beautiful, that is, that we could come out of trauma and find some way to experience sensory pleasure like for me that’s miraculous. [01:16:40][86.8]

Jameela: [01:16:41] That’s amazing, that’s an amazing way of putting it. [01:16:46][4.9]

Shadeen: [01:16:46] That would be a gift to me. And so if even if you’re even if you can trace some of your earliest awareness of the thing that you’re into to a traumatic experience, maybe some of the reframe is what a miracle it is that despite me going through that horrible, unfair, undeserved experience, I could come out with something good. [01:17:11][25.2]

Jameela: [01:17:14] Yes, and so anyone listening out there that felt like a fucking sermon and it was so good for anyone out there who is thinking to invite someone to do something more kinky or fetishy or more out there than what you’ve been doing until now. Listen to Shadeen’s words. There’s nothing wrong with you for just seeking pleasure however, you choose to seek pleasure. And similarly, if someone invites you to do something, there’s nothing wrong with that person for wanting that thing. And there’s nothing wrong with you if you do not want thing. Lastly, I want to just because I’ve had so much of your time, I feel so grateful, lucky, but there was also a lot of people talking about adult virginity. Like people who are and we have tackled this once before on the last episode. But just in case someone hasn’t heard it, someone wrote in to saying, virginity, even when you’re older, how to deal with other people oversharing about their sex life and demanding you do the same and how to navigate that. Because there’s a lot of people, a lot, a lot, a lot of people, every time I’m about to talk to you on YouTube or Instagram or hear a lot of people talking about the fact that they are virgins into their 20s and 30s. And I just wanna remind everyone I was well into my 20s when I lost my virginity so you are not alone. I am here with you. But would you mind answering that question before you go? [01:18:46][92.7]

Shadeen: [01:18:47] Yeah. Virginity is a social construct. There is no sort of formal criteria for the point in time at which you are meant to do a specific set of sexual things. And as you talk with people, you will hear how many different definitions there are for what makes someone a virgin. Right. You know, is it anything over the clothes, anything under the clothes? Is kissing still virginity? Is any sort of penetration? What if I don’t what if I am not having sex with the penetrating partner or I don’t like it. Right. Like those all of these there’s there’s too many metrics to consider. Right. So I start with that first and foremost for us to move away from the comparison or the living up to some completely imaginary metric of what we are supposed to be doing if you did not want to or did not have appealing offers. Then it was the exact right choice for you to say, no, thank you. [01:19:54][66.3]

Jameela: [01:19:55] Right, exactly. Exactly. It also just from my personal experience. I’m so glad I was older. I’m so glad I had that time and space to learn what I wanted to read social cues a bit better to figure out if I actually liked someone or if I was just trying to get out the way so that I would be acceptable at school. I did get teased a lot about it at school and into my 20s, but it was it was worth it to just wait until I found the right person who made me feel safe. And then I had a wonderful first experience and not everyone does. And you don’t have to be in your 20s to be able to have a wonderful safe experience the first time plenty of people do in their teens. But as definitely nothing wrong with waiting until you’re ready to do anything, especially something as intimate as sex. [01:20:40][45.1]

Shadeen: [01:20:41] Right. And so for us to be able to honor the journeys that we’ve been on for whatever reasons that we haven’t done, whatever things that we’re using, you know, as our sort of definition of virginity. Right. Like first making peace with either it wasn’t right. I mean, usually that then that is kind of the whole answer. It wasn’t right. I and I and or I didn’t want to or I didn’t have the opportunities to do something that I wanted. The question it moved towards, you know, what do I what do I do when people are oversharing and pressuring me to share. Oversharing, you know, is subjective. So, you know, this is a question about boundaries, really. And so how do I communicate my boundaries with other folks about sort of hearing about their sexual information? Right. Hearing details about their sexual lives and experience. How do I set boundaries about that? And then how do I set boundaries with people wanting more information from me that I’m willing to give? Right, and so some of this is about us practicing, again, our nos and our no thank you’s right that we can be really clear with people, hey, I actually don’t feel I don’t like to talk about sex or I don’t like to answer sexual questions. Right. And people will likely ask you why. And no is a full a full statement. But if we’re trying to get to know each other, it actually can be really helpful for people to get to know your why. And so that’s a good invitation for you, first and foremost, to get clear on your why. Not so much why are you a virgin? Right. But why don’t you like to have the conversation? The thing that is most helpful, I think, to being understood is for you to track the feelings. So how does it make you feel and how does it make you feel to receive a lot of sexual information about other people’s lives? How does it make you feel when you are processing your own sexual experiences of sexual history? And we can share that right. That we can say, hey, I actually don’t really like to talk about sex because it makes me feel. Insert feelings and blank uncomfortable, it makes me feel really judgmental about myself, and that’s not a thing that I like to feel. And so I would like to ask that we don’t talk about that for a while or we don’t talk about that until we’re ready. Or I would like to be the one to initiate those conversations, because that makes me feel more comfortable. I notice that I start to shut down if people are asking me a lot of questions about myself sexually. Right. Like we can give the people the information to help them understand our choices. We do not we are not required to do that. It can be helpful to do that if we’re saying I want people to understand me because people are more likely to honor boundaries that they understand it doesn’t meet again. People are meant to attend to our boundaries and treat them as important at baseline. But it’s easier to follow a rule if you get it. Right, if I get the consequences of like, oh, it’s not just like something that someone arbitrarily decided, like, it makes them feel bad, right? Or they really don’t like this. Right. It gives people another way to really take it seriously. And it gives us good information that when they don’t oh, this probably isn’t a person that I want to pursue a deeper relationship with, sexual or otherwise. Right. That people don’t that don’t honor and respect the clear boundaries that we set and the agreements that we make about how we’re going to relate to one another when people do not honor that. It also lets us know that this is probably not a person that I want to be more vulnerable with emotionally, spiritually, sexually, whatever. So it’s a it’s a question of boundaries, right? We let people know. What we do and do not want and how those things make us feel. [01:24:41][240.0]

Jameela: [01:24:43] I love talking to you. I love talking to you. You’re like a sniper you just never miss. Thank you so much for giving me so much of your time when you have such a busy practice of your own. I really, really, really appreciate how empowering all of your advice always is, how calm, how kind, empathetic. I think empathy is at the heart of a lot of your work and a lot of what you want other people to have empathy and compassion, not only to each other, but to ourselves. And so I really, really appreciate you. And I will let you go now. And I’m sure as soon as this fucking episode is over, I shall be asked for you to come back again. So. So please come back again, because there are so many more questions. Sorry if we didn’t get to yours. I tried to just kind of generalize over the subjects that came up a lot as much as I could. But our lovely, lovely Shadeen could just as well come back again. And and so lots of love to everyone. Stay safe, be enthusiastic about whatever you do or don’t do. And have a lovely day. Thanks Shadeen. [01:25:47][64.5]

Shadeen: [01:25:48] Of course, sending everyone wishes for peace and pleasure. Thanks for having me. [01:25:53][5.4]

Jameela: [01:25:55] Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode I Weigh with Jameela Jamil is produced and research by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finegan and Kimmie Gregory. It is edited by Andrew Carson. And the beautiful music you’re hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. If you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It’s a great way to show your support. We also have a bonus series exclusively on Stitcher Premium called Ask Jameela Anything. Check it out. You can get a free monthly premium by going to stitcher.com/premium and using the promo code I Weigh. Lastly over at I Weigh, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh. At the end of this podcast. You can leave us a voicemail at one eight one eight six six zero five five four three or email us what you weigh at Iweighpodcast@gmail.com and now we would love to pass the mic to one of our fabulous listeners. [01:26:45][49.6]

Listener: [01:26:47] I weigh my effort to treat and look after myself through my anxiety disorder, I weigh my positivity that I shared in my family and my friends and those around me, even when I don’t feel like myself, I weigh my veganism, my care for the planet and animals. And I weigh my love for the people around me, even though I can be really shy and not show it. [01:26:47][0.0]

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