EP. 199 — How To Read People with Annie Särnblad

Jameela Intro Hello and welcome to I Weigh with Jameela Jamila, a podcast against shame. I’m gonna make this brief because I, like everyone else, have had a chest infection for what feels like about 400,000 years, and it’s just making my voice too sexy, as you can hear. And I just don’t think that’s fair for other podcasters out there, so you know, I love to be fair. Okay, my guest this week is Annie Särnblad, and she is known as the Human Lie Detector, which I think is one of the coolest and most interesting and scary job titles I’ve ever heard of. She has spent her life learning every single micro expression. I’m talking about the ones that happen within 1/25 of a second. She can spot all of them and know if someone is bullshitting her. She can read so much about every emotion someone’s having just by the tiny little expressions in their face, the tiny curls of their lips, or the tiny snarl that they may have. Things that most of us don’t even know to look out for, but once you see it, you can’t unsee it. She had, you know, I think, a difficult childhood, I would say, which she goes into a little bit in this episode, and it made her want to grow up and make sure that, you know, she was lied to a lot, she wants to make sure no one else is ever lied to again. And so she’s made it her life’s work to train and teach huge companies how to spot bullshit so that when they’re in negotiations, like big negotiations, they can figure out the integrity of the person they’re going into business with. And she also helps people when it comes to deciphering and love and relationships. She has a new book out. It’s called “Diary of a Human Lie Detector: Facial Expressions in Love, Lust and Lies.” It was recently released and people are loving this book. I am loving this book. It is fascinating and you should definitely read it. But in this episode we just give you a kind of taste of what it is that she’s talking about, why she has chosen this subject as her life’s work, and why it’s so important for our mental health to be able to feel safe when we know that we are not being gaslit all the time. It’s empowering. It feels like having my agency back to know some of these things. It’s tricky because once you see it, you can’t unsee it. But I also think I would rather be able to see it than not, especially given how chaotic and ridiculous the world is and how much bullshit there is flying everywhere out of the media, out of people’s mouths. It’s hard to know which politicians to trust. And so her work has made me feel a bit more prepared for the year and the years ahead. So listen to the episode, tell me what you think and go follow her work. This is the fascinating and Annie Särnblad. I’m sorry my voice has been so sexy.

Jameela Annie Särnblad, welcome to I Weigh. How are you?

Annie I’m wonderful. Thank you for having me. Good to see you, Jameela.

Jameela So good to see you. I’m so fascinated by you. I think you have the most bizarre and interesting life and career of anyone I think I’ve ever had on this podcast, which is really saying something after four years.

Annie That’s saying a lot.

Jameela Would you be able to talk to me about why you have chosen this line of work?

Annie Yeah. So I had a hard childhood and spent a lot of years feeling like my feelings, you know, the things that were right in front of me and the things that that happened to me were, I was gaslighted, quite simply. You know, so there was trauma, and there was this idea that the things that I saw were then I was told didn’t happen very shortly afterwards. So it wasn’t even that it was, you know, months later, it was very quickly afterwards. And I grew up in a place where feelings weren’t given much attention.

Jameela So England?

Annie Haha! No, outside of Chicago, actually.

Jameela Right.

Annie Yeah.

Jammela Fascinating. I thought it was just us.

Annie Just you. No, no, there are other oppressed peoples too. So, I became obsessed with sort of what was between the surface. And I became very focused really early on in my childhood about who I could trust and who I couldn’t trust. And so I was and continue to be hyper vigilant. And it’s just something that was wired into me from the beginning. And so I left home at the age of 16, I went on a rotary scholarship. And that was my version really, of running away from home. I kind of knew I wouldn’t survive on the streets, and I really needed to get away. And so I went to Sweden. I’m an American kid and, grew up in the US, and I learned Swedish when I was 16 years old, and I spent the next 25 years moving around from country to country. I studied as an anthropologist in Sweden, and I learned eight languages, mostly through immersion.

Jameela Wow.

Annie I’m not that great at languages. So I spent years of my life not understanding what people are feeling, and I think that was my way of dealing with trauma, was to keep stimulating my brain and stimulating my communication skills

Jameela Because it was harder to decode people when you can’t understand their words, so you’re really then having to rely on their body language and facial

Annie Well wou really have to, yeah, and I spent years of my life just staring at people’s faces. And I was utterly convinced, I mean, it’s been sort of this lifelong thing, if you tell me that I can’t do something that I become obsessed with doing it.

Jameela Mhm.

Annie And I think it was because there was such a disconnect between what I saw and felt and what I was told that I saw and felt. And I think probably around the age of 10 or 12, I learned about the work of Paul Ekman, who started to scientifically code the facial expression and his work of categorizing the universal facial expressions of mankind was really based on the work of Darwin. And Darwin’s work, of course, was going from tribe to tribe, categorizing these facial expressions. And the reason he was able to do it is because it’s innately wired into us humans. It’s a species thing. It has nothing to do with culture, so the great irony of my life is that I don’t specifically work with cultural differences. I work with the pieces of us humans that are universal.

Jameela Right. How has that, I mean, I would love to get into like how that has worked within your career, but emotionally, has that led to you feeling more safe?

Annie That’s a really good question. And I think, yes, absolutely. I was reading this beautiful quote that it was, about how much of love is lost because between the word, the things we say and don’t mean and the things we mean and don’t say. And I am able to see exactly in the moment if somebody means their words or if somebody doesn’t mean the words because I’m looking for when the facial expression matches the words. And so if somebody says they love me, I can see on their face clear as day, “Oh, yes you do.”

Jameela How how how can you see that?

Annie They will pucker their chin, they’ll take this soft

Jameela  If someone, if someone isn’t watching this, can you sort of describe it if they’re just listening?

Annie Yeah, so so with love, when we’re portraying, when we’re telling somebody that we have great depth of emotion for them, if I were telling you and declaring my love for you for the first time and a little bit concerned that maybe you were going to reject me, I would pucker my chin because there is no love without vulnerability.

Jameela And so all your vulnerability is in your chin.

Annie Is in your chin. Our achy breaky heart is on our chin. Even when you’re doing

Jameela What if you’re, okay, so this is just the first time someone says they love, not every time they ever say they love you?

Annie Well, I mean, I mean.

Jameela It’s like that first time it’s, that you’re extending that love.

Annie It’s any time I’m really feeling like I’m making a declaration. I would even say, you know, I would even pucker my chin sometimes when I say to my kids. You know, my, my son will say, “Well, how come I can’t stay out until 2:00 in the morning?” Because I love you, because I love you, because you’re not replaceable.

Jameela Right.

Annie And I worry, and I can’t sleep when you’re not home.

Jameela Oh, that’s so funny, and is that for everyone?

Annie Yeah. It’s just universal, it’s like, I describe it like a, our chin is like a smooth grape. And when we pucker it, we turn into this little raisin, this dimply raisin. As soon as you do it, you feel it in your solar plexus. You’re like, “Oh.” If you make this sound “Aw”

Jameela Aw

Annie Aw, you automatically do it. Haha!

Jameela Haha! Oh, that’s so funny. I don’t think I’ve ever noticed that. With 9 billion people on the planet, is there no variation?

Annie No, not unless we have some kind of facial paralysis.

Jameela Right.

Annie Or if you’re not feeling the feeling, then you don’t make the microexpressions. So everybody makes these big same facial expressions when we’re little, and we’re actually trained out of them by our parents, so we’re not trained into the facial expressions. We’re trained out of them.

Jameela How are we trained out of them?

Annie Look, look me in the eyes when you speak to me, Jameela. Look me in the eyes when you answer mama. Look.

Jameela Oh right, right, right, right.

Annie When you talk to me, look me in the eyes. Be polite. And we lose this sort of, this is what we naturally do. Tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick.

Jameela Yeah.

Annie Babies will do that. They’ll look over your whole face, so I teach my students look me on the face.

Jameela Right, right, right.

Annie Not look me in the eyes. Look, watch watch my, and when you get to a really important piece of a negotiation or a date, you’re going to want to shift your gaze down here to see how they respond to you.

Jameela So if someone were to learn these things, they would be able to potentially fake these things?

Annie Well, you can’t fake the microexpressions. They’re up to a 25th of a second and they proceed the thought process. So, I mean, I can try and I can like hold a disgust face or I can hold a vulnerability face, but the timing’s off, so you would automatically be like, “What the hell is this girl doing?”

Jameela Oh, this is fascinating. Okay, so I have had a problem with my facial expressions my whole life, right? And I’ve been told off for my facial expressions my whole life. I have quite a dead face. And also, I sometimes don’t make the correct facial expression for the like scenario.

Annie Situation.

Jameela And I think that, yeah, we have a large neurodivergent, audience as well, I think, and so maybe they would also wonder that, given that sometimes social cues or facial expressions aren’t always totally natural or necessarily societally fitting neurotypical, what does it mean for them? Is that a separate case?

Annie Yeah. So first of all, I’m not an expert in being neurodivergent. I am fascinated. I’ve always been fascinated by it. I have friends, loved ones, students, family members, a lot of people that I’m really, really close to that are on the spectrum, that have autism. And so what I’m seeing with, from my own experience, is that that the microexpressions all match, you know, that’s, they’re as universal as erections. When men are aroused, they get erections. It’s a change in blood flow and muscle movement, it’s the same, like it’s not, you know, when you’re sad or when you’re angry, and if you do that, you need to see somebody above my pay grade, right?

Jameela Right. Yeah, yeah.

Annie So but I mean that’s when it, I use that example because it’s so clear that when you’re aroused you get an erection and you can’t fake it. But I don’t know what that person is thinking. I don’t know if there’s a naked man in front of me with an erection, I’m not 100% sure he’s thinking about me, but I know for a fact he’s aroused. Just like if I see in a moment his pupils dilate, there’s a change in blood flow and muscle movement in his body, and his pupils will dilate. And I know he’s aroused by just watching his pupils. You have to look for the movement.

Jameela  And isn’t this like if you look to the left, it means you’re lying or something like that? Or that’s the creative side of the brain? Okay.

Annie Yeah, I think there there’s some studies about that. I’ve never found it out to be true. You’ll watch me as soon as I start thinking I look up. But I’ve never found any correlation with where I look and whether or not I’m telling the truth.

Jameela Interesting.

Annie Yeah, so with with neurodiversity, for example, I do see what is so interesting to me with my students that have autism is that their parents will sometimes, if they have neurotypical parents or one neurotypical parent, the person, the parent will often be frustrated because they’re not feeling or what they’re supposed to be feeling.

Jameela Yeah.

Annie So that’s ridiculous, like, we can’t we can’t be in charge of what other people are going to feel all the time. That’s, that’s crazy.

Jameela No, totally, but I think well, I guess it’s just the fact that I’m thinking about and I think this is specifically for girls in particular, we’ve learned so many faces that we’re supposed to make. And like this podcast being video, it has been like a huge wake up call for me about like how often I’m making the wrong face for what I feel.

Annie Right.

Jameela So it’s like I look like I’m smelling shit all the time.

Annie Right, right, that’s the no face. Haha!

Jameela And then I can see myself start and I, but I’m not thinking, “No.” I’m thinking, “Yes,” it’s just my brain is thinking, I don’t know really what the disconnect is, but I’ve learned so many facial expressions for when I’m like, actively listening to someone or when I’m trying to communicate friendliness or any of these things. And so I wonder if someone would just, I mean it is technically disingenuous. So yeah, I guess.

Annie Right. So I would see that. Yeah.

Right. That’s fascinating.

Annie And so what I look for often is the “No” face, that’s the face we do when we don’t want something. It makes perfect sense. I’m not going to eat that. Somebody comes with the airplane when you’re a baby, and you’re like, “Ew that smells terrible.” It actually shuts off the sense of smell. We scrinkle this up and it shuts off our nostril passages. And if we really dislike something, we’ll actually tuck our chin and that will close off our throat. So it’s basically saying, “No, I will not eat that. You don’t get to come inside. No, no, no no, ew, ew, yuck. And that’s the big macro expression. It’s got three pieces. The wrinkle here, the lifting of the nasolabial furl and the lifting of the upper lip. It’s that like seventh grade girl that’s a bully that’s like, “Ew, are you going to wear that?”

Jameela Yeah.

Annie Really?

Jameela Yeah, yeah.

Annie That’s what you’re saying. And so the microexpression’s just a little twitch.

Jameela Oh, that’s so interesting.

Annie And it just leaks. It’s like a, it’s like the eye tick, you know, that I get sometimes when I’m stressed where it goes blip, blip. It’s, it’s almost like this little jolt of electricity. But what we’ll do very gently when we’re uncomfortable and we can be uncomfortable with anything. It doesn’t mean I hate you or I don’t want to do this, it just, as soon as we deepen what I call the nostril shadows. So that’s a just I like to to put easy language on it because I spent a lot of time teaching my children, and I work a lot in workshops teaching people, and if I start talking about the nasolabial front, like nobody’s going to remember that after one session.

Jameela Right.

Annie But if I say nostril shadows, that’s the “No” face. So watch what happens when I make, when I do a smile to to mask it. It still feels unsettling.

Jameela Oh, god. I live in L.A. Everyone smiles like that. Yeah.

Annie Yeah, I know! Haha!

Jameela Oh shit.

Annie They really do. They’re like, “Hey.” And you’re going, you’re like, “There’s something wrong. I don’t know what it is, but my body is responding to it.”

Jameela This is so fascinating. Okay, so can I ask, does this in your personal life make other people nervous around you?

Annie So it’s either of the extremes. It’s either like, “Oh my God, you can see everything. Let me tell you every bit of drama I’ve ever experienced.” And that’s generally the boys. The boys, the men will say, “Oh, you can see everything anyway.” it’s almost like they, going to a psychologist. I’ve been storing up these problems. Let me tell you what they are. I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve walked off the stage, had someone wait till I’m by myself and then come over and told me that they were sexually assaulted.

Jammela Yeah.

Annie Yeah, as a child, and you’re the first person I’ve ever told. And these are, you know, 50 year old men.

Jameela Fucking fascinating. And also just the fact that so many massive companies have worked with you in your life because it’s such a big part of negotiation, being able to recognize someone else’s intentions and, and honesty when you’re going into business with them, which I think extends, obviously, as with your work, to our interpersonal relationships. But I think that’s, it’s just something I would never have considered happens in a boardroom that they have a facial expression analysis.

Annie They don’t add, and for years and years I worked as a strategic advisor and nobody knew I did this. I had four grown ups in the world that knew that I could code.

Jameela Yeah.

Annie And everybody knew when I lived in Southeast Asia, everybody knew that I had something. The only other people who like can see that I’m doing something funky are like the Secret Service, kind of the bodyguards of people, of very, you know, people that need bodyguards.

Jameela Yeah, yeah.

Annie They take one one look at me and I’m sure it’s that I hold my gaze too long, and I’m, I’m tracking. I’m going up and down the face rather than just looking somebody in the eyes. And I’m looking too long and I can see it almost instantly. They register, you know, they start getting itchy and they give me this look like “You’re made.”

Jameela And so do you, can you ever switch it off?

Annie No. Never.

Jameela Does that get exhausting?

Annie Utterly exhausting.

Jameela Yeah. I have a friend who says that he can see the, you know, the dead.

Annie Oh, God.

Jameela In the room, and that he can see other people’s relatives and that he’s constantly getting messages. And, I am not the person to say scientifically whether that’s possible or not, but I do witness this person go through that.

Annie Being overwhelmed.

Jameela And being scarily accurate with strangers all the time who they didn’t need to talk to him, like getting money from. They would just blurt things out in like Starbucks. And so I find him to be like a constantly exhausted person because he’s just always receiving codes of information. And that’s exactly the same for you, just in a much more literal, physical way.

Annie Yes, it’s it’s utterly overwhelming.

Jameela So what do you do at a party, like?

Annie I’m really fun at a party. I, I don’t go to a lot of parties, but there was a section in, in my book that I wrote about my friend with a big brain who likes to give me this, you know, a glass of champagne because I so rarely drink. And he knows that I’m so unfiltered. I mean, I see so much of humanity all over the place. So he likes to get me a little bit of champagne, and then he likes to have me code everybody in the room, especially the men. And he used to take me to parties and he’d say, “I want to know who to invest in, that guy, that guy, that guy. Go have a quick conversation and tell me if he’s genuine. Tell me if you believe him. Tell me if he’s, there’s some, if he’s a sociopath.” That kind of thing. And, you know, it’s not that difficult to get a pretty quick read. What you need to remember is that I can see the feelings, not the thought process.

Jameela Mhm.

Annie So I can see if somebody responds to something with empathy or kindness, or if they sneer or they, if they show arousal or pleasure in someone else’s pain and suffering, that’s a big problem for me. Or if they show kindness and empathy when you talk about something in my life that’s hard or my kid’s life, but coming back to this feeling of it being overwhelmed, I mean, I’ve had a lot of guilt. I’ve raised my three children as human lie detectors and realizing as they got to be teenagers, the, the burden that they carried around on their shoulders by being able to see all these grown ups, see through all the grown ups around them.

Jameela And also, you can’t lie to your children.

Annie Not even a little bit.

Jameela And also, I think what I wanted to touch on is that, you know, as much as you have worked training people within the world of business, I know that like a large part of your passion is to arm people, women especially, but I think everyone, with this tool, which I think is so important and, you know, I’m sure there have been other periods of dishonesty throughout history, but because of the prevalence of AI and unbelievably, boldly dishonest politicians and media figures and social media, meaning that the the lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its trousers on. Like this feels like the time where we most need to be able to decipher honesty when it comes to who we choose to go to bed with, or who we choose to live with, or who we choose to work with, or who we choose to vote for.

Annie I first of all, I agree with you. I think on both sides of the aisle it’s so incredibly disheartening. I mean, I think there were certainly times in my life where I thought one party was somehow more honest than a, than another one. And I’m looking at these politicians and thinking it’s, the more you know, the more upsetting it is in general. And so there are certain things that we look for, we look for in dishonesty and deception. We look for the words not matching the microaggressions. Is somebody nodding a lot when they’re saying, “No, I did not have sexual relations with that woman?”

Jameela Mhm.

Annie That’s a problem. No I didn’t, no I didn’t, no I didn’t. That’s the easiest one to see, and that’s not even universal. I mean the micro expressions are universal to our species. Nodding and shaking heads are actually depend, I’m an anthropologist, anybody who’s spent time in, in Sri Lanka or India where, you know, there’s lots of places in the world where they have different head movements.

Jameela Yeah.

Annie But if you have a British man who’s lived in in England his entire life, for example, and he’s saying, “I did not,” you know that, “I am not the father of that child.”

Jameela While nodding.

Annie Haha! I would maybe take a second look at that. And so that the microaggressions say the feeling, shows us where to dig. It’s not definitive lie detection. But if somebody says, “Every time I’m talking about working with Tom, I’m growling.”

Jameela Yeah.

Annie Then there’s something that you’re going to want to ask more questions about.

Jameela And I know that we touched on ways in which this can be a bit exhausting to you and you can’t turn it off. But I also think when it comes to mental health, I think one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you and ask you about the book and to teach all of us what you know, just like a little bit of what you know, is because I do think that my mental health has been helped by learning how to decipher some of these things. And mostly I know because I feel then I feel a bit safer. My cortisol isn’t always activated because I’m not always in fight or flight because I have some sort of sense of agency like I know what’s going on.

Annie Yes.

Jameela Something that I, I still struggle with a lot. And I think a lot of people do is, you know, what we refer to as the gut instinct.

Annie Yes.

Jameela And I know that that’s something that you feel very passionately about, so could you talk to me about that?

Annie So our gut instinct is basically our, our primitive brain, our paleo mammalian brain that is telling us, you know, what is dangerous and what is safe. And in particular, I feel like women are trained to disregard that and that, “No, you’re being judgmental. You’re not being kind. You’re seeing things as black and white.”

Jameela You’re hysterical.

Annie “That didn’t really happen. You’re hysterical. You’re crazy, you’re overemotional.” And what I am trying to do with the remainder of my life is to teach people the words and the science, so the vocabulary and the science for what they’re seeing right in front of us that our brains are interpreting anyway. So, you know, if you see somebody crying, regardless if the tears are streaming down their face, you know that that person is sad. You see the full macro expression, the entire puzzle. And so, a four year old saying, “I’m not sad, I’m not sad.” And you, you, you see it, but you may not really be super aware of the fact that they’re tenting their eyebrows and they’re showing what I call a line of sorrow, which is this skin loses gravity. Darwin talked a lot about like when humans are depressed and sad.

Jameela This sort of eyebrow fold.

Annie Yeah, it’s this fold of skin that comes down really minutely and then the pucker, the chin, and that pushes the lower lip up and out. And so if I can teach you the words and the vocabulary and I’m looking, I’m looking at you and I’m thinking, “Oh, honey, look, you look sad,” you know. Or if I say, “How are you doing today?” And you say, “Great,” and you pucker your chin, I know for a fact you’re not doing great. That’s my instant proof that you’re feeling vulnerability. I don’t know why you’re feeling vulnerability. I would have to ask. But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, I can identify the feeling in real time. And so when we’re looking to see, if we’re on a date with someone, for example, and we’re talking about something that’s hard for us emotionally, physically, or financially, that person, if they’re connected and deep in conversation and they’re focused on, they should be showing some compassion, vulnerability in their chin. They should be mirroring what we’re talking about. Now, if they’re not, it’s possible they still care about you, but they’re thinking about something else, but they’re not feeling emotionally attached or connected in that moment. And people have a very hard time faking that. First of all, they just don’t know, and second of all, like the timing and the movement, your gut will tell you when something’s off. So if I can teach you the science and somebody is leaning over you and saying, “I’m so happy to hear you got that promotion, and they’re growling at you like a dog.”

Jameela Just ever so slightly. And you said it’s only a 25th of a second.

Annie It’s just that little, right. But it’s just goes really fast and

Jameela Tiny quick snarl.

Annie If you’re looking at it, if you’re looking for it, and if I just say, if I say, “I heard you got I heard you got that deal you were looking for.” You know, if you’re, if your eyes are already there, you see it even if you’re just not trained.

Jameela God, I’ve never noticed that before. I’ve never, because it must be so subtle. Also, not to be really silly, but just to be perfectly honest, what about when people have had loads of Botox and fillers? What do you do then?

Annie So this will still move. This part, the glabella doesn’t move, so you’re not going to see as much of the concentration.

Jameela Just for anyone who’s just listening, so it’s the forehead that’s that.

Annie It’s that this is the glabella, the space between our eyebrows. And so people put Botox in all sorts of places, but this will still twitch and you’ll still see even, you know, as you were saying, with Hollywood has, LA has the th the people that are all the time going. You still see that nostril shadow, even if they put in filler and done a lot of work there. You’re still going to see it differ from their baseline, from what their face looks like when it’s neutral.

Jameela Totally, totally.

Annie And so if, if you are trying to figure out, your your gut is telling you, “I just don’t trust this guy.” And he’s like, “Let me tell you about all the great things that are going to happen if you stick with me.” He’s going to start twitching here. His body will betray his words.

Jameela Mhm. So really just this the sides of the nose that are going to like give away a lot of your safety.

Annie That’s the “No” face. Yeah. That’s really a lot of your safety. And so if you are seeing it and you say, “Well he said all the right things and he’s offering more money for the same project than someone else.” You’re really tempted to go to go with somebody who’s who’s saying the right things, who’s, you know, who’s who’s maybe love bombing you, who’s who’s offering money or things that you want, whatever it might be in a, you know, in a business or romantic relationship. But if your gut is there, is telling you, “Hey, there’s something off.” And you see that every time he says something nice, he twitches, then you know for sure, okay, that was the proof I needed.

Jameela  Right. So essentially, it’s like you can’t fully control someone’s access to their gut instinct, but what you can do is affirm

Annie Yeah.

Jameela That suspicion of a gut instinct by giving them fact so that they have something to look on that can confirm. Maybe there is no gut instinct of fear there, but it can confirm any kind of uncomfortable, queasy feeling that you might have about someone. I think that’s really important. I do think that we all need to work harder. We are being driven away from our gut instinct in every way possible, with the distraction of the screens and the chaos and the noise and the anxiety and the medications and the foods and the all the different things like that pull us out of ourselves, like the amount that people may drink or take drugs. There’s so many things that detach us from, from and also sorry largely trauma, you know, where you’re like, is this a trigger or am I actually unsafe in this moment?

Annie Well, no that’s exactly it.

Jameela So we do need to keep doing that work to tune into ourselves. But it is fantastic to have an almost like mathematical or a scientific, I guess.

Annie Well, that was, and that was for me when I realized in my adolescence that there was a way to prove that I was seeing what I was seeing, and then I could prove that my sixth grade teacher, who was a pedophile, was a bad man. And every time he talked to any of the girls, he growled like a dog. And I didn’t know what it was that was off, but I knew something was off. And, you know, two years later, I had a classmate that told me that he was molested. And as a grown up, we formed a team and and went after him. We found eight victims and we think there are

Jameela Amazing.

Annie Up to 200.

Jameela I’m so sorry to hear that happened.

Annie Yeah. You know, this being able to put words on what I see and what I know has been life changing for me. And the really interesting thing that I think I kind of didn’t expect was it shows you who the predators are, but it also shows you who you can trust. It shows you who loves you and who wishes you well, and who wants you to be happy and and flourish and thrive. And you know who, even when their feelings are hurt, are still concerned with your well-being.

Jameela So without further ado, can we give the audience your kind of top five steps to being able to recognize?

Annie Perfect. Yes, yes. Okay. So one of the things we’re going to look for is the facial expression of joy. If someone is genuinely feeling happy, their cheeks lose gravity. It has nothing to do with the mouth. Their cheeks pop up and this skin right here bulges out because it’s got nowhere to go. Those are called smile bags. I call them smile bags.

Jameela That’s why they call it smizing right? When you make the eyes of someone who’s smiling even if the rest of your face doesn’t.

Annie You can do the, you can do the fake, the fake thing, and that will leave this fairly flat. So I can fake smile.

Jameela Yeah.

Annie Or I can really smile and move up my cheeks.

Jameela Yeah.

Annie And again, it doesn’t, it’s not necessarily relevant. It’s relevant if you’re, if you really deeply care about someone to see if they’re really happy or not. You know, with my with my child and I have a four year old and they’re going like this every time I’m thinking, “What’s wrong? That they’re not really, that they’re pretending to be happy when they’re not.” But a grown up, I might just be having a hard day. I’m going to still give you a smile if we’re friends, even though, I mean, I feel it in the depths of my soul. So it’s a social smile.

Jameela But you also touched on knowing if someone’s happy for you.

Annie Yeah. What I really worry about is that the informal triangles, those are the balls of the cheeks, the apples, you know, that pop up. What I worry about with that is whether it was when they pop up and that person is showing pleasure when someone, in someone else’s pain.

Jameela Right.

Annie So that a big problem. That expression needs to match.

Jameela Okay. The other day, my boyfriend dropped coffee all the way down himself, not in a way that burnt him, but it was over his new fancy coat. And it was just the clumsiness of it and just how refined he is, and the fact that he just spilt  the whole thing, and I fucking burst into laughter. And then he was really pissed at me.

Annie Yeah.

Jameela And that’s partially because in England, like, we have a show called, like a historic show called You’ve Been Framed.

Annie Yeah.

Jameela That was on every Saturday of just people falling over and us I guess being taught that it was funny and finding it funny. I also did a show called The Misery Index. Am I a sociopath?

Annie No.

Jameela Okay. But like, that’s bad that something bad happened to someone and I have like, I also nervously laugh. I nervously laughed at an uncle’s funeral, like, I have problems. You know what, what do you do about that?

Annie Hahaha!

Jameela Because I know I’m not supposed to have that reaction now. I can’t stop and I get terrible giggles.

Annie Right. You’re not taking pleasure, you don’t see somebody get hit by a bus and think, “That’s hysterical.”

Jameela No.

Annie Or somebody say, “My grandmother has cancer.” And you’re like, “Hahaha!”

Jameela Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annie It’s not your, your thinking, “I need to be socially appropriate. And then just losing your shit.”

Jameela Well, also it looks funny.

Annie Right.

Jameela It looks funny. Chaos to me looks funny. I think it’s funny when I fall over.

Annie Yeah. Yes.

Jameela So, but yeah, yeah. I do need to work on it though because he was like, this is really unhelpful and

Annie But you, you you framed it by saying

Jameela And then I laugh harder.

Annie He didn’t hurt himself. It’s like if he’d burned himself deeply or if he’d cut himself deeply.

Jameela Oh my God. Yeah. No, no no.

Annie That’s a totally, even that just shows, you show the “No” face. Like, “No, I wouldn’t laugh at that.” Right?

Jameela Okay.

So you’re you’re expressions are matching. Okay.

Jameela Not dead inside.

Annie Not dead inside.

Jameela Let’s keep going.

Annie Okay. So then we’ve got the no face that we talked about.

Jameela Yeah, right. The slightly snarly labial growl.

Annie Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounded dirty.

Jameela So labial fold. Does that. Nasal. The vagina. Sorry.

Annie Nasal I mean it’s out.

Jameela So you have to pull up that knickers or pull down my knickers and have a look at the diner. And if that vagina is cringing then it means they’re not happy. Oh, fuck. I’m so sorry. I said I’ve been up to it. I’m trying really hard.

Annie I said, wait a second, I have. Yeah, I think people are going to remember it.

Jameela Oh, totally. I mean, what about, the asshole? What does the asshole tell us about someone else? Yeah.

Annie It means that they’re tense. Like, if there’s a cleansing anger. Anger, for example, is. So I get asked all the time. I have men that come up to me after I spoken, and they’re like, my wife says I’m crabby all the time. I’m not crabby. Can I tell you how many men it’s so funny?

Jameela Well, making such a crabby face.

Annie And I go, okay, honey, you’re thinking about work. Yeah, I’m thinking about work. And it’s almost like talking to a little cat. Yeah, mean. And I was like, what do you do? You can tell your wife that if you’re angry, you’re going to have tight lips, but that the forehead, the brows, concentration and problem solving is the same as the brow of anger, because there’s a there’s a piece of something is unjust, unfair and wrong. Needs to be fixed, needs to be solved. These are our thinking muscles.

Jameela I think the face I make during debates. So people think I’m looking at them like they’re fucking stupid. And it’s not that I’m just trying to solve the puzzle.

Annie If you’re angry, your lips will be tight and clay. Yeah, right. Always. Anger always has a taker.

Jameela I need to tell my friends that. Because when that. When we’re in the same spirit. Yeah, yeah.

Annie But imagine if you do too much Botox and then you can’t use your thinking muscles.

Jameela Right?

Annie So that’s one of the reasons it helps with depression, because you, you stop ruminating quite so much because you can’t quite even get all the way there.

Jameela Well, it’s also partially, I imagine, like facial expressions. There was a lot of talk after like year two of the pandemic, where children were wearing masks at a very developmental age, and they felt as though that was creating, I guess, slowing down their ability to pick up. So it was.

Annie What our parents do when they say, look me in the eyes, look me in the eyes, look me in the eyes. We’re like losing all of this muscle movement that we’re supposed to be. Yeah, this is our original.

Jameela And they’re not learning how to recognize it in each other. Yeah.

Annie That’s right. And as grownups, most of us have lost. It’s the earlier I can teach somebody better. You know, I had my youngest student is three. I know when I work with her, she’s like, duh.

Jameela Yeah.

Annie She knows all the facial expressions. That’s what she uses. She doesn’t have a fully developed vocabulary because she’s three. I mean, she speaks full sentences. She’s very bright. But but they still rely on the facial expressions.

Jameela Yeah. And also like, I guess there’s such a wonderful purity to how children aren’t holding that back yet, which I really enjoy. Yeah. Talk to me about holding back.

Annie Okay. That’s, that actually has a little bit of a pucker on the chin, but the only reason it’s got the chin pucker is because it takes a lot of muscles to get this bubble right here.

Jameela And it’s because you’re almost physically holding the words inside of your mouth.

Annie Yeah, it’s it’s the it’s the facial expression of biting our tongue.

Jameela Yeah.

Annie And I call Barack Obama the king of suppression because he’s forever making this facial expression. I have something to say that I’m itching to say, and I’m not going to do it.

Jameela Yeah, I’m not allowed.

Annie In a board meeting in any kind of work meeting. I mean, you could see somebody in a in a meeting make that facial expression. And it may be that they have something really important to say, but it’s almost lunchtime. They really want to eat it.

Jameela So funny that you say that because when you mentioned the Barack Obama thing, I was also thinking about who I see make that face the most. And aside from it being English people in general. Yeah, women and women in business scenarios.

Annie Over and over again.

Jameela Women who, you know, in a meeting, in a big boardroom meeting or when everyone’s pitching ideas or in a writer’s room or in on set, even you can see or even when someone’s doing the hair and makeup, I can see that.

Annie And they don’t quite like it, and they want to say something.

Jameela I’m not going to say it. And I see women do it more than men because women are so incredibly suppressed. And yes, and I think that’s maybe a good thing for us to hear about, to know that maybe that’s an opportunity to even if you don’t in the room, make someone, you know, expose their true thoughts where maybe they don’t feel safe to maybe taking them aside and saying like, oh, I noticed that you maybe had something you wanted to say.

Annie Yeah. What did you think about that? You know, when you were when so-and-so said this or when this topic came up, what do you what do you think about that? And people will almost always tell you, because they have to physically restrain themselves from saying the words. And so, yeah, I think I have to like, really hold back and bite my tongue. Then the second you give me an opportunity to tell you what’s going on, I am going to tell you, oh, we went to the oh crap face. I wanted to tell you that.

Jameela Yes, we still have the oh crap face on the maybe face.

Annie Okay, those are good faces. So let’s do the baby face first. The baby face is really fun because, actually, I’m going to show it to you, and you tell me which cultures like to make the baby face all the time. Yeah. Is there an actor you think of that does that?

Jameela I mean, I think of Al Pacino immediate and like, Robert De Niro. It’s, it’s an Italian. Yeah. Associated facial expressions. It’s the kind of, like, upside down smile for anyone who’s listening upside down you that you do with your mouth. Yeah. So it’s almost kind of creating a hell shape.

Annie With your voice, and it can be. So each of these facial expressions, I put one word on them because I think it’s a really easy, simple way to remember them. But we humans are complex creatures. So if you try to put words to that, when Al Pacino does that mean. I don’t know about that? You’re going to have to convince me. It can also be that, like, not bad, but you’re not 100% there. You’re not 100% accepting of what’s are bought into what’s going on. And so if you’re trying to sell somebody a car and they do that, you have not succeeded all the way with your pitch.

Jameela Totally, but also on a date. So go with me here. Sorry, because this is just coming off the top of my head. But yeah, on a date like you’re seeing someone early stages of seeing someone and maybe you ask them how they feel about the relationship or you express that you would like, you know, take it a step further in the relationship. It might not be as committed as an Al Pacino on screen. Several second upside down smile, right? It’s going to be a mike it. What did you say? Oh 20 it’s.

Annie Really going to be the maybe face. I’m I, I use the word micro expression, but the maybe face and also suppression. They take so many muscles and they take so much effort.

Jameela So if you say.

Annie Thank you so it’s a few seconds.

Jameela But is that is there a way if someone’s trying to conceal that they feel maybe.

Annie Yeah they won’t. They they don’t. People are so unaware of the facial expressions they make unless they’re trying to convince, you know, they’re using it as a punctuate, which some cultures do, which, you know, they’re like, yeah, I don’t know about that. I mean, you know, that might be like, they’re they’re actually trying to make the big facial expression. But if you’re saying, you know, I’d really like it if, if we could both get some time off where I can, maybe we could go away for a couple ways. You know, it would be really nice to spend some more time to get the guy’s like, not he’s not totally bought into it. Okay. So there’s that, that piece. So it’s not it’s not quite a micro expression because it, it just takes too much effort and you have to hold it a little longer. But it’s still going to be fairly involuntary unless you’re saying, well he told me this. And then I was like I don’t know about that. You know, that’s more of a punctuated right. But most but that facial expressions I work with genuine generally are just the universal ones. That’s. Yeah, I, I try to keep it fairly clean cut just because, you know, those are the ones that are going to be most useful. We can speak and often see the really big ones okay. But that that just means that are some that you’re not totally on the same page with the other person.

Jameela Okay. And so the fifth one is oh crap, oh crap.

Annie And that is a piece of fear that the whole mouth of fear is this. And then the next sentence jump.

Jameela And so you’re next. And so, so you must look like you’re making a sort of a triangle with your eye. Here you can see you can see the lower teeth. You know, that sort of like.

Annie I call it.

Jameela A bit like a but yeah, it’s a bit, it’s like when you’re looking at something go, oh shit. Like, you know, the dread face, you’re showing the like corners and the lower teeth.

Annie And often the oh crap face, I call it oh crap. Because often just, you know, it can be both, but it’s often just one. So it’s like, yeah.

Jameela I’m minus one. Yeah.

Annie And mine is always on my, on my left side.

Jameela Mine’s on my right.

Annie So it’s just that. Yeah, yeah yeah. And oh crap. Sometimes you know it often comes to the sound. Yeah I have no idea why.

Jameela And so is that one that you feel like is important for people to know. Because then they can see if it’s sincere or not.

Annie Yeah. So if you’re talking with your team and you say okay, so when working on this project and I want all of us to really pull a couple of, of little bit, you know, longer days and I want us to get it done by Thursday. And somebody on the team goes like this. That’s what I’m saying. I’m afraid of this. So again, we can’t see what they’re thinking. It may be because they they are afraid that they don’t have enough time. They’re afraid of working with John or Cindy or whoever on the team that they’re not going to do their share, but it’s showing like, oh, crap, this is like, it’s it’s it’s a it’s a piece of fear. It’s not. Yeah. But it’s like I don’t know if that’s going to work. oh. It’s oh.

Jameela Face. I think for parents this is so helpful. I think for team leaders this is so helpful for organizers. This is so helpful. And then when it comes to love, you know, which you talk a lot about love and, you know, lost allies, etc..

Annie Yeah.

Jameela How would one because I think a lot of people, especially now that we’re meeting people not via, you know, face to face, where you kind of get a sense of someone, we’re meeting them over apps and and pictures and stuff, you know, it is it’s more detached, like we look on people’s social media, which is such a curated feed of who they wish to bring to the earth, and then we project all these ideas onto that. So. So why is this work? So important when it comes to the dating world into the world of love.

Annie So first of all, everything that’s over video or via social media, any any thing that has a layer of there’s some kind of hinder in the connection is problematic. You know, even when we’re on zoom, it’s, there’s there’s less of a connection. And then the in-person and the microexpressions don’t necessarily match. And the mirroring that we humans do where we mirror each other’s facial expressions. That’s actually how I know what emotions feel like as a human being. We make the facial expressions. It sends a message to the amygdala that then processes it. So when we have too much facial paralysis, that’s impedes that process of emotional intelligence, even with people who previously had emotional. So there’s a knowing smile. You’re like.

Jameela No, it’s yeah, I was just well, it’s also I think I’ve spoken about this maybe before in this podcast, but like I find going to the cinema very embarrassing because I will mirror I don’t do this so socially so much, but in a cinema I will mimic the exact face the person’s making. So if it’s like a Leonardo DiCaprio Nicolas Cage movie where they’re having like a meltdown for like half the film, I if you look at me, I’m making the exact same face of screaming despair or anger or like fight scene. Oh my God, I’m fucking exhausted. So I had to have so much popcorn and like, so much Coca-Cola. But like, I, yeah, I, I’d like, during a fight scene, my boyfriend, actually, like, he kicks his legs, in at the same time as the fight scene. So it’s actually quite dangerous to watch anything in bed on my laptop if his violent, because he can’t help it is completely unaware that his mouth is moving the whole time. Someone’s talking. Like we’re both so active when we’re watching TV. And it’s also like, you know, part of why I think I’ve, you know, I’ve said everywhere that I can’t watch sex scenes because I find it too awkward, because I don’t know what face to make. And part of that is just that I’m terrified I’m going to make the same fucking faces, you know, as the people on the screen. And it’s mortifying.

Annie And really funny.

Jameela It’s endless. And so I tend to just watch things as much as I can on my own. I could like there was a TV show called Gogglebox in England that they always used to offer me to go on. I was just like, no one can watch me watch TV ever. No, that is my that’s my personal purgatory. Oh hell yeah. But anyway, sorry, that was smiling. Just because there’s mirroring and then that’s taking the fucking piss. Like.

Annie Right James the mirroring. Is that really important? The problem with zoom is that, well, I’m looking at your face now, but then I’m not looking in the camera, so I’m looking in the camera that feels like I’m connecting with the audience. Or you feel like I’m looking at you, then I’m not. I can’t actually see what your face is. So my mirroring would then be off. And so you’re just kind of in this stuck where I just look at myself and I’m like, you know, it’s my hair. It looks kind of funky today. Or or I look at my face because I’m, I’m it’s an endless carnival of, like, what I can do with my face. I, for whatever reason, like a child interested in, like, what can I do? I can stretch my face and do such strange things with my face, and I find that endlessly entertaining.

Jameela I think your work just is going to help people you know, and already is helping so many people feel a bit safer. I hope so. And as tedious and exhausting as it is to maintain one safety all the time, I think when it comes to women especially, you know, like that sense of danger that we override all the time, being able to pick up on these sorts of cues? Or does this person actually like me? Are they cheating? You know, that that whatever that instinct is that makes you want to go through someone’s phone, which I never recommend doing? But then their phone is maybe written all over their face, you know?

Annie And that is the thing that we have this gut instinct. And I would say to anybody, anybody listening, but anybody really ever if your gut is telling you something, trust your gut.

Jameela But what about when someone’s got trauma. Because there have been friends of mine who’ve been cheated on a bunch of times and then.

Annie And then are absolutely paranoid. Well, and.

Jameela Maybe, maybe go to therapy for the general trauma. And then in the meantime, before you feel completely safe about your gut, learn these tools.

Annie Well, to be.

Jameela Able to.

Annie Actually decide if you’re, you know, why are you picking people that you don’t trust to, you know, is there a pattern and that that’s something that is good to figure out in therapy, too? Is there a pattern where you’re repeating some of these, these romantic choices that that on some deeper level, they’re reminding you of some of the scenarios you experienced as a child?

Jameela Well, when I first found out about your work, I was so excited. And then I had to ask myself, why am I this excited? I was like, oh, it’s because I’m I’ve lived a life surrounded by liars. Yeah. And so I think it’ll be interesting even to see who gravitates so much towards this episode, or towards your book or towards your talks that you do, and people can come and see you speak well. What’s really.

Annie Really interesting is some of the people that have seen me, you know, that I was speaking. And some people will line up afterwards and just say thank you for putting on the words, on things that I always knew but could never prove. And so the people that are hyper vigilant, it seems to me to be particularly easy for them to because they’ve been watching this their entire lives. So now all of a sudden there’s words to there’s vocabulary to put on the stuff that they already know.

Jameela And we just touched on the surface of everything. You go into far more detail and depth in your work and in your books. And so everyone should really get into the nitty gritty and then let this be the last year that we all get lied to without.

Annie Realizing, my goodness.

Jameela From you, because it’s an election year in America. And I think maybe also the UK. So if there was ever a time we need to decipher bullshit, it is now. It is indeed. So I so appreciate your work. It’s come at a perfect time. Perhaps 37 years too late for me. But I’d rather not now. I really think you’re so fascinating. And your work is really mind blowing and very, empowering. And. And so I appreciate you.

Annie Likewise. I appreciate you two and all that you’re doing.

Jameela Thank you very much for coming on today.

Annie Bye bye. All right. Bye bye.

Jameela Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. Iowa with Jameela Jamil is produced and researched by myself, Jimmy Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimmy Gregory, and Amelia Shapiro. And the beautiful music that you are hearing now is made by my boyfriend, James Blake. And if you haven’t already, please rate, review and subscribe to the show. It’s such a great way to show your support and helps me out massively. And lastly, at Iowa, we would love to hear from you and share what you weigh at the end of this podcast. Please email us a voice recording, sharing what you weigh at Iowa Podcast at gmail.com. And now we would love to pass the mic to one of our listeners.

Annie I be having a loving and supportive family. I Wei Yang, a psychotherapist and a professional dancer. I Wei name graceful always and I Wei being kind and loving to others.